well well well

In a statement posted to Medium on Saturday morning, the general counsel for Hillary for America announced the campaign would get behind recounts in Pennsylvania and Michigan should Green Party candidate Jill Stein make good on her promise to look into voting totals in those states.

According to attorney Marc Erik Elias, the campaign has been reviewing their options since the loss to GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump, including allegations of tampering.

“It should go without saying that we take these concerns extremely seriously. We certainly understand the heartbreak felt by so many who worked so hard to elect Hillary Clinton, and it is a fundamental principle of our democracy to ensure that every vote is properly counted,” he wrote. “Since the day after the election we have had lawyers and data scientists and analysts combing over the results to spot anomalies that would suggest a hacked result. These have included analysts both from within the campaign and outside, with backgrounds in politics, technology and academia.”

Outlining the steps they taken, Elias wrote that, while they have not uncovered “actionable evidence of hacking or outside attempts to alter the voting technology,” the success of Green Party candidate Jill Stein to successfully launch a recount in Wisconsin has made them reconsider joining in.

raw story has it

Smithers!! Release the hounds!

BRING BACK BERNIE! Smile

(the real one not the hijacked version)

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edg's picture

Two words that don't belong together in a sentence are honorable and Clinton. The honorable thing to do would be to accept the results of the election. This is not like 2000, where a few hundred votes in a single state determined the outcome. This is tens of thousands of votes in multiple states. One would have to be insane to imagine Michigan and Wisconsin, states that can't even agree on how to share water from the Great Lakes, could coordinate to throw a presidential election.

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Never felt the need to do that before, but this is scummy. And insulting.

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lunachickie's picture

Stein is either incredibly naive, she's not who/what she seems to be, she's an unwitting dupe or she's been bought off.

I don't really see any other possibilities. The "incredibly naive" encompasses "she JUST cares about Election Integrity", btw--I have no doubt it's entirely possible she's all on the up-and-up with ALL of this, and genuinely believes she is doing the right thing by voters. But even there, the alarm bells go off. The Green Party has NOTHING to do with it. You would think that party, of all the ones in this country, would be right on this. Still, on the face of it, without looking at the details, Stein is doing a good thing. However, naivete demands that we notice--and point out--that her actions are foolish, done piecemeal like this, after the fact--not to mention not being bothered to grok up front that she's doing this in states where it would be helpful for Clinton to flip. Something simply does not add up here. At all.

Meantime, I never took my Bernie stickers off, because they still look great. Sorry you had to un-ick your bumper...

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edg's picture

Get somebody else to take the fall and look stupid while the Clintons maintain plausible deniability. "Oh, we wouldn't have done this, but since Jill is doing it, we guess we'll support her." I don't know how they got her to do it, but choosing the exact 3 states that could benefit Hillary Clinton sure makes it feel like she's being a patsy. When all goes badly, they can throw her under the bus just like everybody else they use and discard.

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Done to show us where we are in terms of being a democracy.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

lunachickie's picture

just sayin'.

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What is it you're afraid of again? Knowledge?

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Beware the bullshit factories.

lunachickie's picture

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from the recount or do you think there is no knowledge to be had? And why are you so against it?

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Beware the bullshit factories.

lunachickie's picture

are completely suspect. Until some questions raised are thoroughly answered, let's try to watch how we frame others here who dare to ask them.

To wit: you want to know what I'm afraid of in THIS specific situation? What I'm afraid of is these assholes trying to usurp what's already been declared, and taking the Presidency away from Trumpski the half-wit, which will fucking well result in national chaos by a lot of pissed off people with guns. I happen to be surrounded by a whole bunch of them.

So yeah, I'm fucking terrified of this. So sue me....

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information they have?

The computer scientists presented their findings to some Clinton aides on Thursday. They believe they have found evidence that vote totals in the three states could have been manipulated or hacked.

“The scientists, among them J. Alex Halderman, the director of the University of Michigan Center for Computer Security and Society, told the Clinton campaign they believe there is a questionable trend of Clinton performing worse in counties that relied on electronic voting machines compared to paper ballots and optical scanners, according to the source.” CNN reports say.

John Podesta, Clinton’s campaign chairman, and Marc Elias, the campaign’s general counsel, were informed by the scientists that Clinton received 7% fewer votes in counties that relied on electronic voting machines.

The group also told the Clinton aides that there was a need to review the pattern independently even though there was no evidence of hacking. [link]

This is the problem I have with the Clinton statement.

We certainly understand the heartbreak felt by so many who worked so hard to elect Hillary Clinton,

I don't care about electing Hillary as much as I care about unelecting one-party GOP rule. That has to be stopped.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

lunachickie's picture

I don't care about electing Hillary as much as I care about unelecting one-party GOP rule.

To begin with, you'd still have one-party GOP rule.

Even putting that aside, nobody here is claiming they have ANY information, any more than Team Clinton--through our ever-sensible and reliable Media--has deigned to inform us they just happen to have.

But hey, let's just let them direct and do a half-assed job or even lie about it some more, and then use their "results" to "prove" that our ballots and ballot counting are perfectly safe and legitimate. Sounds great, doesn't it? (/snark)

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What's the variability (and n) of those measurements? What else correlates with the type of voting machine? Those correlations are called confounding variables - you don't know which, if any, are probably responsible for an observed result. Those "computer scientists" don't seem to understand probability or statistics any better than a lot of other groups I won't name today.

There were lots if clear irregularities: huge numbers of voters' registrations being purged or changed, huge shortages of voting places in convenient locations, inappropriate instructions to poll workers in Cslifornia ...

But Stein gloms onto this nonsense?

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Sat, 11/26/2016 - 6:00pm — Sunspots

Very sloppy research methodology

What's the variability (and n) of those measurements? What else correlates with the type of voting machine? Those correlations are called confounding variables - you don't know which, if any, are probably responsible for an observed result. Those "computer scientists" don't seem to understand probability or statistics any better than a lot of other groups I won't name today.

There were lots if clear irregularities: huge numbers of voters' registrations being purged or changed, huge shortages of voting places in convenient locations, inappropriate instructions to poll workers in Cslifornia ...

But Stein gloms onto this nonsense?

Sounds like some of the same issues of the Dem primaries, doesn't it?

... There were lots if clear irregularities: huge numbers of voters' registrations being purged or changed, huge shortages of voting places in convenient locations, inappropriate instructions to poll workers in Cslifornia ... ...

My suspicion is that TPTB simply switched over at the last moment, as they found that the Clintons were even less trustworthy than Trump, probably whenever faced with a donor bigger than the last one and likely even more insane regarding nuclear war-crimes destroying life on the planet more rapidly even than planned.

Neither corporate candidate should have been permitted to run loose in society, in my estimation.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

on those same machines? 10%? 15%?
I'm not afraid of knowledge, I'm afraid of a kill crazy psychopath getting her hands on the launch codes because some do-gooder came along and did a half assed job.

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On to Biden since 1973

... “The scientists, among them J. Alex Halderman, the director of the University of Michigan Center for Computer Security and Society, told the Clinton campaign they believe there is a questionable trend of Clinton performing worse in counties that relied on electronic voting machines compared to paper ballots and optical scanners, according to the source.” CNN reports say. ...

But this was OK when she 'won' primaries where hackable machines were used, Bernie winning by large margins otherwise... Can't Trump just use the approach the corporate Dems did? 'I won, STFU!'? Along with 'Damn the suppressible voters/whited-out/uncounted and substituted/shredded provisional ballots following mysterious Party changes, we make our own votes and don't need your real ones!'?

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

"Knowledge" isn't something static that you discover that adds to your perception of the world, like finding a dollar lying on the ground adds to the money in your wallet; "knowledge" is affected by how it is disseminated and put to use. And the structure that disseminates it--the media--and the structure that puts it to use--the legal justice system--are both corrupt and working overtime to help Hillary Clinton. In fact, we watched both structures help Hillary Clinton cheat her way to the nomination.

Whatever knowledge Jill Stein's audit discovers will be altered for public consumption to advance a pro-Hillary narrative, whether by omitting/downplaying anti-Hillary facts which are found, or by spinning the facts to suit her. There are already indicators that suggest that all this is going to be directed toward Hillary's benefit:

1)The fact that there will be no audit of the primary. Yes, Jill has no standing to demand such an audit, but she could be talking about the evidence of cheating in the Democratic primary every time she has a camera on her. She could be talking about the cheating in the Democratic primary as one of the reasons she wanted to request an audit of the general. Is she? That's an honest question, because while I've heard some of what Jill has to say, there may be something I missed.

2)The fact that the only states where there is an audit are the ones where Trump won narrowly, not where Hillary won narrowly. Again, one can say "Well, the deadline is past for NH," but that begs a couple of questions--first, why was this action not taken before the deadline passed? and second, is Jill Stein using her newfound access to the mainstream media to talk about how she considers the states where Hillary won narrowly just as suspicious as MI, WI, etc.?

It blows me away that people disagree on this point--I can only assume that my cynicism about our institutions of law and media must have vastly outstripped that of the Caucus99ers who disagree

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lunachickie's picture

are you too cynical for this. You're asking the same questions a lot of others are asking.

To this point in particular:

is Jill Stein using her newfound access to the mainstream media to talk about how she considers the states where Hillary won narrowly just as suspicious as MI, WI, etc.?

In case anyone missed it, Stein did have a bit of MSM access before Election Day. According to her Twitter feed, she's logged more than a few interviews on CNN (along with ones she done with alt media). I have watched many of them, and in most, she makes a passing mention of "fraud" or "distrusted results" but never gets specific--or else goes on to something else. Like you, there could have been ones I didn't see/read about, but what I did see never approached the level of Concern Stein suddenly has for several specific states.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

I know Hillary Clinton, or someone working for her, committed election fraud in the primary. It is impossible for her to have a genuine victory, because she already cheated.

Finding out Trump committed fraud too is going to result in Hillary being able to play the role of the injured innocent all the way to the White House. That means, in case I need to say it again, that someone who committed fraud is going to be able to pretend to be a victim of fraud, and become President.

Even if they do find evidence Hillary cheated in the general, they will treat that evidence exactly the same way they treated evidence that she cheated in the primary. Even with an honest audit, the results will be reported, and acted upon, asymmetrically. The legal system and the media system protect Clintons and Bushes. No one from either of those families will ever be held accountable in an American court or by the American press.

Just in case you're wondering, this political result would also result in the fight for election integrity going the way of the fights for racial justice and gender equality.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

edg's picture

If this is about democracy, why these 3 states? Why not one state that went for Trump, one that went for Clinton, and one that is very close, like Michigan? That would be a far better sample when checking for being a democracy.

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lunachickie's picture

why these 3 states? Why not one state that went for Trump, one that went for Clinton, and one that is very close, like Michigan?

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With these stupid as f**k voting machines.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

lunachickie's picture

thrown-together, questionable recount, with money mysteriously raised virtually overnight, by a woman who couldn't get arrested after actually vandalizing private property.

OK, so....I think that's where we part ways on this. To me, that isn't the way to prove that we've had votes stolen for the last 16 years that we know of. This ONE situation is where they abuse us--again--and our distrust to "prove" they're not stealing anything.

Can you really not see the difference?

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shaharazade's picture

and getting the Greens national recognition sounds like an incentive. Sounds like the Working Families Party who cut a deal with Cuomo in NY to endorse in order to get ballot access. We mistakenly joined the WFP in 2011. The candidate in our district we worked hard to elect to Oregon's state house had a D and WPF after his name on the ballot. He turned out to be a wolf in progressive clothing, a corrupt crooked pol who is in the bag for developers, foreign investor banks, and realtors. The Democratic pols here are literally demolishing Portland.

He ran for major this year and was against any police accountability for killing peoplle and more insane growth which he bills as environmental. There is a policy here in Portland that gives the cops a 48 hour period of time after killing the mentally ill or black people where they are not required to be questioned. So much for WFP and so much for the Greens. He lost to the 'moderate' Demorat who actually might be better then a fake 'progressive' Where So Screwed 2016

Why did Jill Stein not put as much effort and money into running a visible, viable campaign or organizing grassroots on the local state level? Perhaps her Vantage investment's will fare better under a Clinton Democratic administration. Putting her finger on the scale after the fact doesn't do a damn thing to help the Greens. Closing the barn door after the horse has bolted does not even help people be more aware of the rigging hijacking of our electoral system. It empowers the criminal Clinton machine and gives credibility to the 'New Democratic' neoliberal/neocon establishment's horrifying agenda.

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if they can't complete the recounts in time, by Decrmber 19. Why wait so late to ask for recounts, anyway? It's a big project, and reports now are that election clerks and staffs will be working nights and weekends in Wisconsin to try to finish on time. The other two states will have even less time.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-27/democrats-real-strategy-launchi...

So a person who has no standing, because she has no chance of winning herself, with no evidence of wrongdoing, can throw the election into the House. Just call for recounts, with no evidence, at the last moment. At the very least, states need to set deadlines for demanding recounts that make it possible for them to do them. But nobody ever expected losers to try to pull this sort of disruption.

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Steins WI petition for recount reads like it could be a press release from the Clinton campaign on Russian interference with Clinton's campaign. The petition basically uses the specter of "foreign operators" as subverting the vote. She doesn't mention Russia by name, but it is apparent that is who she means as no one else has been blamed. The petition had nothing to do with anything she has stated as her reasons. Now maybe Stein had to come up with some reasons, but strange to use Clinton talking points.

http://heavy.com/news/2016/11/wisconsin-recount-filed-results-election-2...

In the petition she cites one of the profs that encouraged the Clinton campaign to do a recount. Thing is, this guy has backed off his claims. His claim of Russian interference was based on the possibility of the Russians messing with the memory cards on electronic machines. It would have take a small army of Russian agents to get physical access across four states. But the prof asserted without any consideration that it would not be beyond the capabilities of a nation-state to do this.

When the Clinton campaign was approached by these guys about asking for a recount, they declined as supposedly their experts said results would not change. Personally I think Clinton did not go down the recount path because she and close staff knew the Russians had nothing to do with the hacks, etc. So they knew immediately, there were no Russki shenanigans--which on face value, given the petition Stein believes. I believe Assange when he said the Russians were not his source of email leaks. The biggest revelations have basically come from insiders.

In addition, people like Silver and Nate Cohn believe there is no statistical validity to the charges of hacking in these particular states. There may well have been various sorts of voters suppression by the gop, but that is not proved by charges of hacking.

So now Clinton has joined in. I think Stein forced her into the recount.

But I am confused as to where Stein is taking all of this.

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We forgot to wear our tinfoil hats and they took control of us. Seems as likely as an army of Russian strangers appearing and getting access to the machines one by one. Generally the vote clerks know the people they work with.

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flying in and spying on them.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

I am so concerned about all the voices on Facebook buying in so completely to the "Russia is evil" meme and the belief that we must protect the integrity of our elections from Russian hacking. These are the words of people responding to Robert Reich essays. Robert is totally amplifying this propaganda. Would the Clinton camp be doing this if the outcome was not known in advance to be in her favor? Is Hillary going to get the coronation she believes is her right, but now with the people pouring into the streets to celebrate because they will have saved democracy at the same time? I honestly feel like I am losing my mind.
I echo what everyone has already said about the corrupted primaries - so much so that exit polling was stopped because of the overwhelming difference between machine votes and how people reported voting. Let's not forget that there were discrepancies, too, between outcomes of votes that were hand counted vs the results of those counted by machine. Where was the outrage? And what about the almost total media blackout of Bernie and his rallies? Did that not affect votes? And way before election day, why aren't we outraged about the number of people purged from voting rosters or disenfranchised on other ways? What about closed polling places or those with too few or broken machines? The system is so broken.
There is no real republican/democratic duopoly - there is the corporate/mic deep state. I'm guessing that the factions of the deep state that want Hillary must be winning the day. Maybe it has something to do with the trade deals being negotiated between China and Russia and the global realignment that is happening that is challenging US hegemony.

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MsGrin's picture

W.T.F., Jill?!

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

I especially like the big, round one that looks like it belongs on a British racer. The mug is also great. I honestly think Jill is pulling a con on Hill dupes, so she can get a few $millions for herself. Smart woman. Now she can retire in Bermuda and write her autobiography. Penn. has no paper trail, so no recount.

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lunachickie's picture

that's a possibility, just because you know damn well "grass roots" isn't bankrolling the bulk of it.

Penn. has no paper trail, so no recount.

Has anybody stopped to figure out why they might want to do a recount somewhere where there is no paper trail? No??

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sojourns's picture

as to the underlying motives of some people. Either that or she willfully chooses not to get taken in by other peoples' well crafted shittyness.

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

She's sucking up to the liberal establishment to gain access to their financial resources.

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shaharazade's picture

theDemocratic establishment? Aren't the Green's supposed to be liberal? How can she go to Standing Rock and show solidarity with the water protectors and then suck up to the fracker/pipeline and investor's? Pisses me off as I voted for her as a 'protest vote' and actually considered for a moment that the Greens just might be a viable liberal third party worth working to build. I guess that dick Armando was right about this 'a pol is a pol'. I really don't like David Cross who was her campaign manager. I watched the Green convention and it gave me the willies. What a sham on every front this election has been.

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Meteor Man's picture

to steal an election:

“Since the day after the election we have had lawyers and data scientists and analysts combing over the results to spot anomalies that would suggest a hacked result."

Where does President Elect Trump come off trying to hack election results? What the hell is his problem anyway?

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

Deja's picture

And he did it in code using the vegan Russian propaganda site nutrition facts.

I know this to be true because the site is on the Russian propaganda black list found here:

http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html?m=1

/snark

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Amanda Matthews's picture

votes, she'll hop up and kick his ass and crush his hackers. Even though there's no trace of any hacking. And no matter what you do, you still can't get Stein in the 5% bracket. And no one has adequately explained where any money not spent on the 'recount' goes. And about those non-paper ballots, how are they going to be appropriately accounted for, huh?

Yeah, Stein's motives are as pure as the driven slush.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

riverlover's picture

pure as the driven slush

Add in salt plus clinkers from the coal-fired power plant. That's more like it. Wink

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

lunachickie's picture

Shit, I've been saying the GOP was going to best her on that for months now, and I'm hardly the only one. You think someone would have clued Her in...

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Thanks for putting into words what I've been ham-handedly trying to say for three days.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

mouselander's picture

If the Clinton people are supporting the recount, it obviously means that Jill Stein sold out and is a total tool.

Et tu, Jill?

So hard to find people whom you can actually respect nowadays, you know?

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inactive account

Lady Libertine's picture

I glanced briefly over at TOP this morning, Im not so sure the Hillbots are willing to give Stein any benefit of any doubt on this or anything else, even if it could advantage their candidate. sigh. Im getting dizzy with all this nonsense. Its like Hate rules supreme now everywhere, everyone must see things in the same Black or White, Either Or dichotomy, all the gray is vanishing.

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lunachickie's picture

they wanna have it both ways, as usual

I've quit going over there, I salute your bravery Wink

I have been suspicious of the big picture here, to say the least. One doesn't have to ascribe necessarily bad motives to Stein, she could be doing it for the Green Party that doesn't seem to know this is happening on their behalf.

Up to now, I've had no reason to think ill of her, though I now have questions about her where this is concerned, in terms of "strategy", "timing" and "financing". None of that is unreasonable, but the 'black and white' of it says otherwise.

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has got them to where they are now. Solidarity carried to the point of blind faith has, to a great extent, rendered the Daily Kos community incapable of self-criticism and objective analysis. If the Democratic Party is to survive, it will need to look outside itself. It will need to actively seek, and welcome new faces, fresh ideas... and most certainly, dissenting points of view.

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native

Wink's picture

At all levels. We need bench, which means we need some wins.

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

riverlover's picture

Coach will not let us play, still. [I admit to being a Hoosier, I can bench-talk perfectly] Hard to see the court through fans of both sides out there now, high-fiving. Our time may come.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

shaharazade's picture

not binary. People seem to be so hung up on data, demographics and stat's that they mistake the measurements of con as reality. Fact's that can never be 'checked' as politics and history are not black and white and the fact's your checking are made up of whole cloth by the real 'fake news'. The long gone 4th estate is now propaganda. Political propagandist's have sunk to a new low when they start blaming their mendacity on the unbelievable storylines like 'the Russian's did it'.

Fear and loathing blinds people to any truth. Then again maybe some people don't want to see the reality or any truths as they have been bamboozled into thinking that as Axelrod said this is 'the world as we find it'. What about those other truths, those self-evident inalienable ones that humans have developed over time to protect themselves from tyranny and the dark side?

'Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.' George Orwell.

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Anja Geitz's picture

Is that there isn't going to be any productive conversations about this and instead we are going to bang on and on about our Hillary outrage while the possibility of unmasking the bigger elephant in the room: the election fraud that has been going for years, will be a subject that will get little play. Pity that.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

lunachickie's picture

we are going to bang on and on about our Hillary outrage while the possibility of unmasking the bigger elephant in the room: the election fraud that has been going for years, will be a subject that will get little play.

Nobody involved is setting up-front expectations on ANY of this. Nobody has set any table for "what happens if some results are audited but not others".

Not to mention, the American "mainstream" media has never straight-up acknowledged the kind of election and ballot fraud we've all known has been going on since at least 2000. So why are THEY so concerned now? I'd like to see those questions answered BY THEM, before we all just throw caution to the wind and let THEM control how "recounts" and "ballot integrity" are handled, let alone perceived, right now. Because THEY have no integrity. At all.

And they know we know it. And we have to remember that.

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Anja Geitz's picture

Bang away with your outrage. In the meantime, I'll wait and see were this leads and then draw my conclusions.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

lunachickie's picture

Come on, don't put people in the Box of Blind Outrage because they dare to question any of this to date.

That's what people at TOP do. I can see why you were confused earlier, if that's how you really feel...

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Anja Geitz's picture

In another comment to you, as well as agreeing that you have brought up some compelling points. But we've had 4 diaries up that are basically saying the same things. How many more times can we say Hillary and the media are not to be trusted? I'd like to see where this is going. So let's chalk up this tête-à-tête between us as simply disagreeing on where to expend our energies and I'll let you have the last word about it.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

lunachickie's picture

I'll let you ponder that while you wonder why that's relevant. Hint: repetition

I have no beef with you, and you're right; we already know all this stuff. Maybe we're supposed to waste our energies on this instead of worrying about Standing Rock?

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ThoughtfulVoter's picture

why bother reading it?

Respectfully, there are multiple topics at any one time, so if one bores you, leave the rest of us to discuss it and move on to one that you're interested in.

The attempts to silence others' discussions are not helpful to those who DO feel a topic it is important.

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A cheapshot-imo.

If you leave out your first sentence, it costs you nothing.
And changes everything.

thx.

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But hey, I'm fine with them recounting for HRC, as long as they recount for Bernie, Kerry, and Gore.

Actually, why now??? is the big question for all of the protesters and people wailing over HRC's loss. I don't recall them getting too exercised over immigration, the endless wars, the economy, the jobless, and voting integrity before, except for relatively small niche groups.

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dfarrah

Wink's picture

of Women Voters?

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

Bisbonian's picture

They have explained that. And why they quit doing it.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Put simply, I don't believe our corrupt system is capable of unmasking the election fraud that has been going on for years.

I'm not against the fight for election integrity; I'm against that fight being coopted by people who perpetrate election fraud.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

shaharazade's picture

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Yes, yes and yes.

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Amanda Matthews's picture

This has been leading up to.

I voted almost 40 years as a Dem. Finally the corruption got too much to take so I voted green and planned on supporting them from now on. Well f*ck that crap. Stein can pimp herself out to the Clintons all she wants just like Sanders did. Screw both them and the trash they represent.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

lunachickie's picture

because you might not--that The Green Party US seems to have not a goddamn thing to do with any of Stein's actions. Said actions by Stein are nowhere to be found on their website.

I'm not saying this to defend them (my Voter ID says NPA now, I am done with "political parties", myself); I'm just saying keep an open mind on that much for the time being. Why? Because MSM, ever the arbiter of "tells", keeps calling Stein "The Green Party candidate". So how come The Green Party doesn't actually have shit to say about any of this?

If they come up with something, mind you, it sort of reflects the notion that if we *must* have another Party to get behind, we just need to start another one. But if they come up with something *now*, it'll be even more suspicious. So in the end, fuck taking over an existing party and fuck ever trying to reform "Democrats".

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Wink's picture

Now out on the trail.

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

When a lot of his supporters turned on him. The Trump Presidency is shaping up to be pretty bad, I don't care if Hillary is President. Who the f**k knows whose worse. It could easily be Trump. We have to change shit either way. This recount, to me, offers some hope that that change can start now. I used to be a lot more of an optimistic person but I still am to some extent.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

But here's the ways in which he could justifiably claim to be better than Hillary:

1)He didn't cheat to get the Republican nomination.
2)He apparently opposes the TPP. If that stands, then that puts him above her.
3)Most important of all, this (listen carefully to the content of her comments. You won't have heard another mainstream American politician sound like this since the early 60s):

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

I know this is far out conspiracy type thinking, but here goes - What if while setting up a Hillary slam dunk win, something went terribly wrong and Trump won because, in spite of all the cheating, from years before the election through the primaries and selecting Trump to oppose her, the Clinton machine's hubris and corruption was willfully blind to the real pain and desperation of large swaths of the citizenry? What if Clinton friend, Trump, never intended to win? You see politicians saying terrible things about each other all the time as part of the theater of politics, and then go out to lunch together. Trump is selecting transition team and cabinet members who are particularly heinous while breaking so many of his campaign promises. Each appointee announced fuels the fires of those willing to fight for this recount, begging and praying for Hillary to be President. And then because the call for recount is popular and funds are pouring in, the Clinton team feels they must join the campaign that they did not start because they were honoring the election results. Then, the media and pundits fan the flames and propaganda. Have you read how many seemingly bright people are outraged about Russian interference in our elections? By the time Hillary is coronated, the people will be ready for her war against Russia whereas before there was thin support. Just sayin.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

The Clintons and the Trumps have been friends for a while.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

OLinda's picture

Even if PA and MI changed to Clinton, she still doesn't have 270. Trump won without MI even being called for him.

Also wondering how to you unconcede? The time to challenge is when the election is called, no? After Trump has begun the transition process, met with Obama and the WH team, started receiving security brieifings, does Hillary just say - oh wait I don't concede after all. ?

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- - - -
If you don't like the Mafia, why don't you join it and change it from the inside?

lunachickie's picture

that before any recounts take place, that parameters and expectations are set.

For example: nothing gets overturned but the things we find out here, we apply going forward to future elections.

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elenacarlena's picture

any legal weight. IIRC, both Trump and Clinton were already receiving security briefings. So yes, I think she can say she was waiting for the final vote counts to come in, but then she can say "There seems to be a problem, I don't concede after all".

Not that I want her to. What I want is for this investigation to be so thorough that it not only uncovers Trump hacks in November, but Clinton hacks in the primaries. Along with the involvement of Kaine, Pence and Cruz. Throwing them all in jail for election fraud and giving the election to Bernie as the next highest vote winner. Biggrin A girl can dream.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

and hasn't. Nothing will be done about that.

My fundamental problem with all this--

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

elenacarlena's picture

machines, well, the stories from the primaries have to be in the backs of their minds. Maybe someone would look further back.

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Amanda Matthews's picture

mind boggling, and when she did get some press coverage sometimes you had to wonder if no one cared enough about her winning to listen to her beforehand and try to make her speeches sound like something more than a rallying cry from some radical fringe group. And she herself cannot 'connect' with the general public. I have rarely heard anyone speak well of her.

Her stand on the environment is pretty much all she's got and as important as that is, that alone is not a winning platform. I was hoping that they would field someone electable in the future but the fact that she was so poor a candidate, and now this, doesn't make me think too highly of their organisation if this is the best they can do. She's definitely screwed herself and probably them right along with her. What do we do now? Just keep recycling self-serving elitists and/or failed candidates like we have been? Or try to build on a party that can't do any better than Stein? And the Greens need to distance themselves from this crap today. The odds of 'overturning' this election are pretty damn slim but Trump supporters and Repubbies in general are going to remember this, so if the Greens plan on converting any righties in the future they'd best lay out where they stand in all this. Same for keeping any new voters on the Left who voted Stein because they thought she was an alternative to the Ciinton creature.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Cachola's picture

who knows what her real stand is

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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

Alligator Ed's picture

Medusa's so-called environmentally friendly stance only pertained to the U.S. The Fracking Queen still encouraged this all over the globe.

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lunachickie's picture

since you posted this yesterday...

She's definitely screwed herself and probably them right along with her

Something The Party of Her would love to see happen--"third parties" to be discredited forever more, or for at least a couple of generations. So yeah, the Greens need to get in front of this and either put up or be rendered irrelevant. That their website says jack about this is very, very telling, IMO.

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like one of those things that is only a bad thing because the "wrong people" are behind it or would benefit from it. Much like auditing the Federal Reserve. which is still a good idea regardless of the fact that a few wingnuts also have that idea, I have no problems whatsoever with the recount.

Let's look at what data hasn't been destroyed and let the chips fall where they may. The truth is always a good thing.

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They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
And leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret-- A. Moore

Wink's picture

for this to be reversed. They may find some "irregularities," maybe flip a couple states for HRC, but the end result will be the same: president-elect Trump. But, hey, recount those votes. Won't hurt.

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

riverlover's picture

(damn them!) and she up and lost it!!! They want it back!!!! Tantrums!!!!! Note the exclamation point inflation. That's what this is. Meanwhile a Civil War is happening in the State no one knows anybody from. Ahem.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

is going to be presented, and acted upon, in its pure and accurate state.

I can't imagine that happening. Not in the US in 2016. We've already seen what happens to evidence of election fraud when it pertains to Hillary Clinton's campaign. If any further evidence is uncovered against her, the same thing will be done by the media and the legal justice system that was done when evidence was uncovered against her in AZ, NY, and CA--nothing. Therefore, the only change that could come from this is that Trump will be held accountable for any fraud he committed while Clinton, as usual, walks free.

Hillary is above the law. Didn't two sputtering Comey efforts and one "nothing happening here" in response to election fraud make that clear?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lunachickie's picture

Hillary is above the law. Didn't two sputtering Comey efforts and one "nothing happening here" in response to election fraud make that clear?

To not immediately understand that this "recount" situation must be seen in that particular reflection (along with other key reflections, as yes, there are several) is to, at best, have one's head in the sand. Then again, sometimes willful blindness is a coping mechanism that they don't even realize they possess.

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We certainly understand the heartbreak felt by so many who worked so hard to elect Hillary Clinton

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mouselander's picture

Recount discussion starts at 18:38 mark.

Shorter Foxies: The recount is a really bad idea! Don't go there!

So heartwarming to see elements of both the Left and Right unite in their righteous outrage over this (quoting from the movie Bananas here) travesty of a mockery of a sham.

And who says conservatives and liberals can't ever find common ground?

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inactive account

Lady Libertine's picture

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Stein attacks Hillary even though the recount of course has the potential to declare Hillary the winner.

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Lady Libertine's picture

"pissing on the fence", i.e. marking her turf. Maybe.

Or maybe she's signaling her followers who - she must know - despise HRC and do NOT want to see HRC 'win' the election after the fact, due to Jill's efforts to fight for fair & democratic elections.

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lunachickie's picture

Hillary seems to like to pick and choose what laws or rules or whatever actually apply to her (that's a feature, not a bug).

But what is Jill trying to signal, that would really change if a recount goes forward or not? I don't get that tweet at all. It's sad, though, I feel like I should, but never had time to make any kind of emotional investment in "Jill Stein", the person. She was there, picking up the slack where Bernie should have been. I voted FOR Green Party philosophy, which I simply assumed Stein stood for (and yes, she does, I have no doubt of that much).

But this shit? I do not get it. It's like she's taken it on all by herself, and that's crazy. Why isn't her Party behind her? The very party she claims to represent doesn't devote a pixel of column space to any of this "recount" stuff.

None of this makes a lick of sense as it stands, which seems to suggest more than a few scenarios.

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