State Secrets and the White Train

          When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

- - You know the source.

          For a time I actually thought the United States government classification system was about keeping us safe. While that may, in some way, be true: It often is used to keep us ignorant.

          My undergraduate mentor one evening told a revealing story. A few years earlier he and his wife were at party. Some her coworkers were having a fun (somewhat boisterous) conversation wherein they were testing how much they could say without crossing the confidentiality barrier. At one point my mentor had heard quite enough as one of the coworkers said something like, "The real problem is how do you stop the neutrons from escaping.", and in an equally loud voice my mentor answered, "Just wrap it in beryllium." The room suddenly went dead, and they all stared at my mentor's wife as if she were some kind of a traitor. A few moments of this and my mentor scolded her coworkers, pointing out his area of expertise in Physics.

Tracking the White Train


Nuclear Weapons Inventory
Image lifted from heavy.com

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http://heavy.com/news/2016/11/donald-trump-start-nuclear-war-president-w...

According to FAS estimates, the United States currently has 1,750 deployed “strategic” nuclear weapons,” and 180 “tactical,” sometimes called “non-strategic” nuclear warheads ready to fire — total of 1,930 nuclear weapons that will be completely under Trump’s control as soon as he becomes the 45th President of the United States.

“We still have more than enough nuclear weapons to trigger a full-scale nuclear winter that would destroy food production worldwide,” Alan Robock, a Rutgers University scientist, said in an interview with BuzzFeed News. “It would be a horrible holocaust that destroys humanity.”

Will there be any restrictions, any checks and balances, on the ability of a President Trump to start a nuclear war, or launch a nuclear first strike?

The short answer is — no. There is nothing in any U.S. law or military procedure that prevents any president from launching a nuclear strike — for any reason, according to a Brookings Institute report earlier this year.

Technically, the 1973 War Powers Act requires the president to gain congressional approval for any use of force within 60 days of starting any military action. But in the case of a nuclear war, the Brookings report said, the 60-day requirement is essentially irrelevant.

“A nuclear war could easily devastate the planet within just days or hours—long before the 60-day stipulation would be binding,” the report stated. “Even if a president had obtained congressional approval for a war that began using only conventional weapons, no provisions of the War Powers Act would require subsequent congressional action prior to nuclear escalation.

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@Linda Wood

Why do we trust Brookings as a source on this?

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

@Ellen North
In fact, that's always a good question.

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Not really off topic but a friend just emailed and is actually worried about bomb shelters and N Korea. Our stupid media and that kind of fear just pisses me off to no end. I do not believe N Korea is going to nuke us but if they do, I don't want to survive that! The FEAR they gin up in people. My friend has young kids so I can hardly blame her for being scared. God they make me mad.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

PriceRip's picture

@lizzyh7

          My friend has young kids so I can hardly blame her for being scared.

          Hysteria can only work if you let it work. Even if North Korea did send a Nuke this way. The image in your head does not match reality.

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snoopydawg's picture

@PriceRip
It shows nuclear bombs being tested in the Nevada desert, underground and at sea.
IIRC, the one in Nevada not only killed those men who watched it but a lot of people who lived close to the border had high cancer rates.
St. George Utah I think is the town that had the high cancer rates.
The idiots who think that they can set off a mini nuke at Russia are idiots. If Russia gets hit with any type of nuclear weapon they are going to discharge their big ones and they have nuclear weapons on their submarines and I wonder how many of those are sitting off our coastlines?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39573188. Shorter version of video of the bombs.

A few of the men looked up just as the blast wave hit them. I wonder how long they lived after watching that?

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

PriceRip's picture

@snoopydawg

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Atmospheric Nuclear Tests

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snoopydawg's picture

@PriceRip
For putting the YouTube link in your comment.
Yours adds more information

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

thanatokephaloides's picture

@snoopydawg .... was also the place where the notorious super-flop film The Conqueror was shot, with studio sequences shot on -- you guessed it -- dirt imported from the site. Cancer occurrences and death rates were way out of proportion among the film's various participants. From the linked article:

Dr. Robert Pendleton, then a professor of biology at the University of Utah, is reported to have stated in 1980, "With these numbers, this case could qualify as an epidemic. The connection between fallout radiation and cancer in individual cases has been practically impossible to prove conclusively. But in a group this size you'd expect only 30-some cancers to develop. With 91 cancer cases, I think the tie-in to their exposure on the set of The Conqueror would hold up in a court of law."

Bad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@PriceRip I reserve the right to be concerned about the notion of two superpowers firing nuclear missiles at each other, regardless of whether they've reduced their stockpiles since the late eighties/early nineties, or not.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

PriceRip's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

          I remember 16 October 1962 - 28 October 1962, very well, I had just turned 14, started junior high school and was very aware of what could happen. Except we weren't fully informed:

          Secretly, the United States also agreed that it would dismantle all U.S.-built Jupiter medium-range ballistic missiles, which, unknown to the public, had been deployed in Turkey and Italy against the Soviet Union.

          The single most dangerous component of the nuclear arsenals are the tactical (as opposed to the strategic) weapons. They are the easiest to deploy and to use.

          If some crazy someone actually tries to start a nuclear exchange, the exchange will be shutdown.

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@PriceRip
and as one of your readers who respects you tremendously, what makes you so sure of this?

If some crazy someone actually tries to start a nuclear exchange, the exchange will be shutdown.

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PriceRip's picture

@Linda Wood

          The weapons (including the DU projectiles) used to date are actually incrementally worse than previously used weapons. The next level, tactical nuclear weapons, represents a significantly different kind of warfare. Using tactical nukes would be like handing a fully automatic rifle to a soldier in 1780. The soldier might be a "killing machine" for a time but that soldier would not last long.

          We got away with Hiroshima and Nagasaki only because it was a total surprise and, scientists, particularly at Los Alamos, were naive. In a conversation with Linus Pauling a few years later Einstein talked of his mistake and belief that FDR would not have allowed Hiroshima and Nagasaki to be bombed.

          Nobody is naive anymore or as Bainbridge remarked to Oppenheimer immediately after the Trinity test, "Now we are all sons of bitches."

          I think, any attempt, by Trump to perpetuate a nuclear exchange, would be sabotaged.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@PriceRip By Trump, yes. By the CIA/Bush/Clinton/Saudi/Israeli consortium, aka PNAC?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@PriceRip

Nobody is naive anymore

How can you say this? You may be thinking the decision-making about the use of our weapons is in the hands of clear-headed scientists like yourself. But to quote Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal,

By Trump, yes. By the CIA/Bush/Clinton/Saudi/Israeli consortium, aka PNAC?

If reasonable scientists like yourself were making the decisions we would never have manufactured, much less used, Depleted Uranium. Ashton Carter, also a physicist, acted to modernize our nuclear weapons in order to make them MORE USEABLE! That's the kind of maniac who becomes Secretary of "Defense" in this country!

We've been hearing about how chemical weapons are bad. Here we are, 30 years later, and they're all over the place in Syria and Iraq. How did that happen? I don't even want to start a discussion about our biological weapons "program." It's illegal under U.S. law and International law, and yet GW Bush expanded it after the anthrax attack. Of course. That would be the logical thing to do. IF YOU'RE A MORAL IMBECILE.

PriceRip, I love you, Man, but what makes people nervous is what we're looking at, and that is the clear sign that our country's leadership consists of either morons or maniacs. They are not people like you.

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PriceRip's picture

@Linda Wood

          I was reading this just before I "clicked" back here and saw your comment. This article is a good read. It illustrates why, by way of an analogy, I will never trust commercially owned nuclear powered electrical generating facilities or training programs less rigorous than those overseen by Rickover or a select few I know personally. All of this is to say: I know how to correct the issues you raise, it's trivial, but as we are not allowed at the table we are not able to implement those solutions. As long as there is big money to be made doing stupid, stupid will get to be the leader.

          As for Ashton Carter, sociopaths exist in all walks of life. The "sociopath" label may seem a bit harsh until you realize that all personality "disorders" manifest as on a spectrum or sliding scale. But any modern physicist that would think nuclear weapons should be made more user friendly is certainly a bit sociopathic. We are here and in the various national labs. We keep watching, we keep acting, and we don't stop. Certainly we are fallible (we are human ‽) but we keep doing what we can.

          That being said the key is to find a way to get the general public (voters in particular) to support those that at least respect our efforts. Critical infrastructure (EPA, NIH, and others) will be severely weakened if not destroyed if current trends are not reversed.

          My comments are not about Trump Versus Democrats or any other such lame slogan of the day. My comments are about a fundamental reordering of how we function as a society.

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@lizzyh7 And that's a big maybe. Chinese & Russian missiles can reach anywhere.

China has more to fear from a crazy man in charge of the missiles than we do. North Korea is dependent on China for their very existence. Trump should have been talking to Xi about replacing that hereditary idiot in NK and replacing him with a Chinese puppet. Or China directly "restoring order" in North Korea. As China woos South Korea economically, N. Korea becomes just a bad embarrassment.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

thanatokephaloides's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness

Trump should have been talking to Xi about replacing that hereditary idiot in NK and replacing him with a Chinese puppet. Or China directly "restoring order" in North Korea.

I still think that the end of the North Korean regime will come when Kim Jong-Un launches a live, armed rocket, and instead of flying off towards Japan, it misdirects into China. At that point, the NK regime will not find the Chinese as forgiving as the Americans and Japanese have heretofore been.

Bomb

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

@The Voice In the Wilderness

Yesterday's editorial in the military-focused Global Times tabloid, owned and operated by the Communist Party's People's Daily newspaper, said that North Korea’s nuclear activities must not jeopardize northeastern China, and that if the North impacts China with its illicit nuclear tests through either "nuclear leakage or pollution", then China will respond with force

.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-12/china-threatens-north-korea-nev...

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Bollox Ref's picture

The major role of any government is to lie about the lies of yesterday, lie about today, and prepare notes for the lies to be given out tomorrow regarding the lies of today.

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Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.

thanatokephaloides's picture

@Bollox Ref

The major role of any government is to lie about the lies of yesterday, lie about today, and prepare notes for the lies to be given out tomorrow regarding the lies of today.

That's "the major role of any government" at any time in history!

Or, as Hermann Goering put it: "It works the same way in any country."

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

CB's picture

@thanatokephaloides

Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler

Volume One - A Reckoning
Chapter VI: War Propaganda


...
The receptivity of the great masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan. As soon as you sacrifice this slogan and try to be many-sided, the effect will piddle away, for the crowd can neither digest nor retain the material offered. In this way the result is weakened and in the end entirely cancelled out.

Thus we see that propaganda must follow a simple line and correspondingly the basic tactics must be psychologically sound.

For instance, it was absolutely wrong to make the enemy ridiculous, as the Austrian and German comic papers did. It was absolutely wrong because actual contact with an enemy soldier was bound to arouse an entirely different conviction, and the results were devastating; for now the German soldier, under the direct impression of the enemy's resistance, felt himself swindled by his propaganda service. His desire to fight, or even to stand film, was not strengthened, but the opposite occurred. His courage flagged.

By contrast, the war propaganda of the English and Americans was psychologically sound. By representing the Germans to their own people as barbarians and Huns, they prepared the individual soldier for the terrors of war, and thus helped to preserve him from disappointments. After this, the most terrible weapon that was used against him seemed only to confirm what his propagandists had told him; it likewise reinforced his faith in the truth of his government's assertions, while on the other hand it increased his rage and hatred against the vile enemy For the cruel effects of the weapon, whose use by the enemy he now came to know, gradually came to confirm for him the 'Hunnish' brutality of the barbarous enemy, which he had heard all about; and it never dawned on him for a moment that his own weapons possibly, if not probably, might be even more terrible in their effects.

And so the English soldier could never feel that he had been misinformed by his own countrymen, as unhappily was so much the case with the German soldier that in the end he rejected everything coming from this source as 'swindles' and 'bunk.' All this resulted from the idea that any old simpleton (or even somebody who was intelligent ' in other things ') could be assigned to propaganda work, and the failure to realize that the most brilliant psychologists would have been none too good.

And so the German war propaganda offered an unparalleled example of an 'enlightenment' service working in reverse, since any correct psychology was totally lacking.
There was no end to what could be learned from the enemy by a man who kept his eyes open, refused to let his perceptions be ossified, and for four and a half years privately turned the stormflood of enemy propaganda over in his brain.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@thanatokephaloides Actually don't agree. That used to be one of the functions of government; there were many others. Like the Alien, it has now burst its bonds and left the wreckage of everything else government used to do behind.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

thanatokephaloides's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

That used to be one of the functions of government; there were many others. Like the Alien, it has now burst its bonds and left the wreckage of everything else government used to do behind.

There was considerable cynicism and snark in that exchange, I'll grant you.

But at 58, I'm really too young to have seen much of the "many others" other than as a minor child. The Alien burst its bonds in the Nixon Administration, and the evil jinn has never been re-bottled since.

Sad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@thanatokephaloides

Turning point moments, aka advancement in the velvet coup, during my lifetime:

1968 (Assassinations and mega-failure of Democratic party)
1971 (Powell Memo)
1972 (Democratic party reorganization post-McGovern. Superdelegates, etc.)
1978 (Neo-conservative movement launches)
1980 (Reagan wins. Deal with Iranians that they probably now regret.)
1981 (Exceptions to Posse Comitatus)
1985 (DLC invented)
1988 (More exceptions to Posse Comitatus)
1992 (Clintons take over Democratic Party.)
1994 (Newt Gingrich/far-right Republicans take over House.)
1996 (Telecommunications Act)
------
After this point, no more access to political system for non-rich citizens
2000 (Bush junta installed against will of the people)
2001 (Patriot Act 1)
------
After this point, no more basic rights for non-rich citizens
2002 (AUMF. Iraq War/PNAC Middle East strategy kickoff)
2004 (Bush once again installed fraudulently)
2008 (Wall St. crash, bailout; Congress openly acts against will of people)
2010 (Citizens United)
---
After this point, no more real power for Congress

2016 (military stops obeying President)
---
After this point, little power for President

Feel free to add more of your own!

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal For instance, I didn't have time to put the War on Drugs in there--a very important piece. Or anything involving the ongoing transformation of the police.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

thanatokephaloides's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

Turning point moments, aka advancement in the velvet coup, during my lifetime:

1968 (Assassinations and mega-failure of Democratic party)
1971 (Powell Memo)
1972 (Democratic party reorganization post-McGovern. Superdelegates, etc.)
1978 (Neo-conservative movement launches)
1980 (Reagan wins. Deal with Iranians that they probably now regret.)
1981 (Exceptions to Posse Comitatus)
1985 (DLC invented)
1988 (More exceptions to Posse Comitatus)
1992 (Clintons take over Democratic Party.)
1994 (Newt Gingrich/far-right Republicans take over House.)
1996 (Telecommunications Act)
------
After this point, no more access to political system for non-rich citizens
2000 (Bush junta installed against will of the people)
2001 (Patriot Act 1)
------
After this point, no more basic rights for non-rich citizens
2002 (AUMF. Iraq War/PNAC Middle East strategy kickoff)
2004 (Bush once again installed fraudulently)
2008 (Wall St. crash, bailout; Congress openly acts against will of people)
2010 (Citizens United)
---
After this point, no more real power for Congress

2016 (military stops obeying President)
---
After this point, little power for President

Thank You! Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@thanatokephaloides You're welcome! Smile

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

I thought I remembered a time when we had real statesmen doing public service to a country. In the Agatha Christie books, Miss Marple would have attributed it to the difference between the honor and breeding of old money vs the crass commercialism of new money. Trump vs the Kennedys.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

@dkmich From rum running.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

thanatokephaloides's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness

Kennedys are new money. From rum running.

It's still older money than Hair Chump's, though. And Kennedys took up acting "old money" fast, too. (It's typical Northern Tidewater behavior; the Roosevelts did much the same!)

Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

lotlizard's picture

@thanatokephaloides who was Nixon’s 1960 running mate.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Henry_Cabot_Lodge_Jr.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness It's a question of old-school aristocrat versus new school megalomaniacal sociopath.

We had to burn the planet in order to pacify it.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

thanatokephaloides's picture

@dkmich

This may be naive as hell...

I thought I remembered a time when we had real statesmen doing public service to a country.

You're pushing (age) 80?

Wink

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Pluto's Republic's picture

@dkmich

…learning the obligations of great wealth came early in childhood, in the form of public service. I recall a biography written about the Kennedys that talked about that. Public service was practiced along with the management of wealth. It was second nature, and each generation taught it to the next. The tradition was established in England, as Jane Austin readers will know well. It maintained a harmony in the countryside when the very wealthy did their duty among the poor on their estates.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
thanatokephaloides's picture

@Pluto's Republic

the obligations of great wealth came early in childhood, in the form of public service. I recall a biography written about the Kennedys that talked about that. Public service was practiced along with the management of wealth. It was second nature, and each generation taught it to the next.

And in the Northern Tidewater in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries, new money picked up the habits fast. In an earlier Comment I mentioned the Kennedys and the Roosevelts as examples.

Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

PriceRip's picture

          Before you try to run through any scenario leading to a full scale cluster fuck involving those (now) approximately 15,000 warheads. Stop and think for a bit.

          Take a deep breath and think about what would really happen.

And, consider

          Depleted uranium from "conventional" weapons have done far more harm than the Two Warheads actually detonated in war. Testing (near my extended family and elsewhere) has created far more contamination than produced by the Two Warheads actually detonated in war.

          Fear mongering will only serve to cloud your judgment.

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snoopydawg's picture

@PriceRip
and white phosphorus in Iraq and Syria. As you pointed out yesterday it's going to take billions of years before those areas are habitable again.
That is a much bigger war crime than the use of sarin gas even though all 3 reach the same results.
Why isn't anyone sanctioning this country for its use of chemical weapons?
How do those other countries allow us to do whatever we want and not hold us accountable? I don't understand that.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

TheOtherMaven's picture

@snoopydawg
and therefore makes the rules on what they can and cannot say and do. "Whoever pays the piper calls the tune", and other slogans having to do with the obscene power of Money.

If the rest of the world were really serious about bringing the US to heel, they'd pull the UN out of the US and relocate it to some neutral zone such as Geneva, Switzerland, they'd stop taking US money and fund it themselves, and they'd stop dealing with the US in any way whatsoever - especially petrodollars.

Ironically, "getting the UN out of the uS" has been a neocon wet dream since they were the lunatic fringe John Birch Society - but I don't think they ever thought through the implications.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

thanatokephaloides's picture

@TheOtherMaven

Ironically, "getting the UN out of the US" has been a neocon wet dream since they were the lunatic fringe John Birch Society - but I don't think they ever thought through the implications.

Actually, the bumper stickers read the opposite polarity, i.e., "Get US out of the UN!" These hyper-neocon whack jobs want the US to be able to conduct its affairs as it damn well pleases, use secret treaties, and only have to respect its own sovereignty. Then, of course, they want to be the only power in this country.

The implications are horrific, as you correctly allude.

Bomb Bad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

SnappleBC's picture

@PriceRip Sure, we can leave unexploded ordinance and radioactive contaminants everywhere poisoning lord only knows how many people and we're the good guys. Even if we assume guilt on both Sarin attacks, how many people would that total up for Assad?

The U.S. Army's own contractor, Doug Rokke, who headed a clean up of depleted uranium (DU) after the first Gulf War stated, "Depleted uranium is a crime against God and humanity." Mr. Rokke went on to state that when his crew went to the Gulf they were all very healthy people, yet after performing clean up operations, 30 members of his staff died and the majority of the others, to include Mr. Rokke himself, "developed serious health problems."Mr. Rokke has reactive airway disease now, as well as neurological damage, kidney issues, and cataracts.
-- from Dangers and Effects of Depleted Uranium

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

PriceRip's picture

@SnappleBC

          someone had made the claim that DU was innocuous. I, the fool that I am reply with a few bits of reality. I was buried, as obviously I don't know anything about the subject.

          My problem is that I refuse to quote extraneous sources. I have never been particularly good at quoting extraneous sources, much to the consternation of my thesis advisor. Publishing in some journals is impossible until you divine which "favorite son" is not on your list of precursor papers.

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SnappleBC's picture

@PriceRip When I looked into it only as a result of this thread what I learned was inconclusive. Given that, common sense seems to indicate that without conclusive evidence, leaving radioactive materials around in dust form is unwise. The unexploded ordinance bit, however, is hardly inconclusive.

For me, the fact that the army seems to treat it's own hit vehicles as contaminated lends credence but so far I haven't actually backtracked all the claims. As always, I operate with the assumption that everyone is lying Smile I obviously assume the armed forces are lying but I ran into a paper from the WHO that was also inconclusive although expressed concern about children... a concern notably lacking from Democrats nowadays in all but speech.

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

PriceRip's picture

@SnappleBC

          This information and some knowledge of track physics determine the radiological effects of Depleted Uranium Dust. This knowledge plus knowing the amount of dust and larger fragments allows one to determine the effects on the humans in an area.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

- - You know the source.

Christian Scriptures, First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians, chapter 13, verse 11; to be precise, Captain!

Wink

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

@thanatokephaloides @thanatokephaloides Being raised Catholic I never read the Bible.
(ducks)
Going to Catholic parochial school, the irony of a oxymoronic classification for a school wasn't lost on me.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

karl pearson's picture

@ghotiphaze No time for the Bible in parochial school back then. We were busy memorizing the Baltimore catechism since we didn't know what question the Bishop would ask us at Confirmation.

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@karl pearson Then an hour of catechism right after.
And I was an alter boy who was sure to show for the 5:30 mass so I was scheduled every week, Mon thru sat. That gave me two masses a day, and add the occasional funeral making three those days...
I guess the figured I was being overworked since I never got scheduled for weddings--you know, the ones the alter boys actually get a bit of cash for.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

karl pearson's picture

@ghotiphaze I'm female and girls were not allowed to be altar servers back in the l950's and 60's. I guess I lucked out. We were required to be in the choir and had to sing at funeral masses, weddings, and other celebrations. I remember being hungry during morning Mass since one had to fast before Communion. After Mass we returned to class and ate breakfast. And yes, Religion class was always first period.

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snoopydawg's picture

@ghotiphaze
I grew up in Utah where most of my friends were Mormon. I was friends with one of my teachers and she asked a group of us to go somewhere and I told her that I couldn't go because I had catechism.
She asked me if I was sick or something.
Fun memory from way back.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

thanatokephaloides's picture

@snoopydawg

I was friends with one of my teachers and she asked a group of us to go somewhere and I told her that I couldn't go because I had catechism.
She asked me if I was sick or something.

I had a fellow from Catholic school eventually go and study for the priesthood.

He would return from time to time to the old neighborhood. I would ask him how things were at "the cemetery". (seminary)

Wink

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

@snoopydawg involved as my parents used to send my sister and I up for Sunday School while they slept in. But our neighbors were Mormon and I went to their version of catechism a few times. I loved that baptismal pool they had in the church and wanted badly to be dunked in it, it was a really pretty blue tile and I thought that was just awesome. I don't remember what my mother said when I told her I wanted to be baptized in that pool but I don't think she was real thrilled about it. But then again, I'm not sure she would have really been upset had I joined that church as neither parent was particularly religious.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Nasty stuff to be around too, but worked years around it in aerospace before the 80hr+ work weeks ended my first marriage. Thankfully, was never involved in weapons production.

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Fighting for democratic principles,... well, since forever

Pluto's Republic's picture

For a time I actually thought the United States government classification system was about keeping us safe.

I think it is important to keep in mind that the people you elect to office have nothing to do with creating classified documents. They don't mark documents as classified. They don't manage these documents or make them unavailable to you.

Classified documents are ruled by deeply embedded, unelected authorities, across just three departments. They decide what Americans can know about their country. They have no oversight and they classify their own activities. None of this is available to those elected to office, who do not have clearance to view this information. This is the Deep State. These are the Neocons who took over the Trump administration in April.

You can't vote your way out of this.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
lotlizard's picture

@Pluto's Republic Ordinary citizens here helped force genuine political change in East Germany through peaceful mass civil disobedience.

Even when people in the U.S. or Western Europe vote for political change, actually getting it is so rare that it qualifies as a “black swan event.”

I think voters go for things like Brexit or Trump because they are desperate for change and by now know very well from experience that, in terms of actual citizen control over government, the usual methods of political expression no longer work — in fact a realization is dawning that they stopped working in the mid-1970s and have been neutered by post-Powell-memo total mass media mind manipulation since.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@Pluto's Republic

Classified documents are ruled by deeply embedded, unelected authorities, across just three departments.

That would be Defense, State, and.... ??

They decide what Americans can know about their country. They have no oversight and they classify their own activities. None of this is available to those elected to office, who do not have clearance to view this information. This is the Deep State. These are the Neocons who took over the Trump administration in April.

You can't vote your way out of this.

Actually, we could vote our way out of it. But it would take a concerted effort among the American electorate to elect a Congress whose first priority would be to disempower these people. And the concerted effort required is one that has never been seen in our history.

The same concerted effort would be required to elect a peace-oriented, anti-interventionist Congress and President, which is why we have neither. So long as the bulk of the American People beLIEve that our military exists to keep them safe (along with other LIEs of that nature) we won't have that effort.

Diablo

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

PriceRip's picture

@thanatokephaloides

          So long as the bulk of the American People beLIEve that our military exists to keep them safe (along with other LIEs of that nature) we won't have that effort.

          How do we transform cynicism into criticism. I detect a lot of cynicism masquerading as criticism out there in the real world and that is not helpful. I understand the frustration that has created this situation. A big part of the problem is the concerted effort to discredit the "left", "real liberals", or whatever. Whatever, or however we identify, how can we make sure critical thought is not dismissed as cynicism all dressed up with no place to go? Or worse: The accusation of "let's have a pity-party because of my bruised feelings." drives me crazy.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@PriceRip

How do we transform cynicism into criticism. I detect a lot of cynicism masquerading as criticism out there in the real world and that is not helpful. I understand the frustration that has created this situation. A big part of the problem is the concerted effort to discredit the "left", "real liberals", or whatever. Whatever, or however we identify, how can we make sure critical thought is not dismissed as cynicism all dressed up with no place to go?

Excellent question, PriceRip! What do you suggest?

Wink

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

PriceRip's picture

@thanatokephaloides

          I think the key is in the comment of yours that I quoted. If (a very big if) we could change that dynamic, make the military subservient to the will of the people and not allow it to support unfettered capitalistic greed, and imperialistic impulses, maybe we could actually have a great country.

          I like "impulses" over "goals" as the former denies the notion that politicians have put any real thought into their actions. They, all of them, lack impulse control.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@PriceRip

Education, that's all I can work with.

Only truth!

[video:https://youtu.be/9Ex-kUK_7OQ width:500 height:350]

Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

lotlizard's picture

— I mean, speaking of regimes and leaders that shouldn’t be trusted with nukes and, if the world were saner, wouldn’t be.

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mimi's picture

and it's giving me some hope, when he tells the young: It's not your task to prove that's better to be stupid than smart, but to prove that it is better to be smanrt than stupid.
Noam Chomsky: The Prospects for Survival
[video:https://youtu.be/1uSwEqyJhGI]
Starts at TC 5:45 and goes on for almost 1 1/2 hours. A lot in there.

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