Police shootings: Beyond BLM

Every once in a while someone says something so incisive that it causes you to look at an issue in an entirely different way.
Rev. Jesse Jackson managed to do that earlier this week.

Police kill more whites than blacks. Of the 700 killings it has recorded, the Guardian reports that 340 were white, 179 black and 101 Hispanic. The Post reports that African-American men were 40 percent of the unarmed deaths, but whites and Hispanics made up the majority. The system has a class bias as well as a race bias. An investigation by Alternet’s Zaid Jilani revealed that in the first five months of this year, 95 percent of police killings occurred in neighborhoods with median family incomes under $100,000. There were no killings in neighborhoods with median family incomes of $200,000 or above.
Not surprisingly, lower-income whites are more likely to say police abuse of authority is on the rise than middle- or upper-income whites.
Excessive force puts white lives at risk, as well as those of blacks and Hispanics. But the silence of the white community and of the white church is deafening. The victims of police abuse are left to seek justice on their own.

Forget for a moment why many whites are silent about blacks being shot by cops, and ask yourself why whites are silent about other whites being shot by cops? It's not like whites being killed by cops is a rare occurrence. Why is there not a #WhiteLivesMatter (or similarly named) movement?
Isn't that a little strange?

Why, for instance, did a white, armed militia (i.e. the Oath Keepers) feel it necessary to patrol the streets of Ferguson during a BLM protest? Even the police didn't want them there.
It begs the question of what these people believed and what part of society they thought they belonged to. How is it possible that a largely anti-government group would be patrolling the street on behalf of the police? Just how out-of-touch are these people?

The article by Reverend Jackson got me thinking. Almost the entire reason that BLM and its followers have decided that police killings is an issue of racism first and foremost is because blacks are being killed in this country by cops at a greater rate than white are being killed by cops. And that much is true. Blacks die from cop shootings at a rate of around a 2:1 to whites ( 2.74 deaths for every million blacks, to 1.28 deaths for every million whites).
 photo counted_zpsqqrp9pts.png

Now let's say that suddenly that problem is "fixed" and that blacks are "only" being killed at the same rate as whites are.
Does BLM no longer have a reason to exist? Mission accomplished? Wrong.

Let’s look at our immediate neighbors to the north, Canada. The total number of citizens killed by law enforcement officers in the year 2014, was 14; that is 78 times less people than the US.

If we look at the United Kingdom, 1 person was killed by police in 2014 and 0 in 2013. English police reportedly fired guns a total of three times in all of 2013, with zero reported fatalities.

From 2010 through 2014, there were four fatal police shootings in England, which has a population of about 52 million. By contrast, Albuquerque, N.M., with a population 1 percent the size of England’s, had 26 fatal police shootings in that same time period.

China, whose population is 4 and 1/2 times the size of the United States, recorded 12 killings by law enforcement officers in 2014.
Let that sink in. Law enforcement in the US killed 92 times more people than a country with nearly 1.4 billion people.

It doesn’t stop there.

From 2013-2014, German police killed absolutely no one.

In the entire history of Iceland police, they have only killed 1 person ever.

All that would happen if blacks were "only" being killed in this country as the same rate as whites is that blacks would still be getting killed at around 50 times the rate as anyone else in a first world country.

Talk about lowered expectations!
On the other hand, it seems perfect for today's liberal politics, where real world defeats are sold to us as symbolic victories.

In other words, the problem would only be "fixed" on a selective relative scale, nothing more.
And as long as people approach this as an issue of only racism and nothing else, then nothing of consequence will be fixed.

That is not to say that racism isn't a factor. What it does mean is that the issue here is much larger and more complex than just racism. Which shouldn't be a surprise, because that's what normally happens when large groups of real human beings are involved.
It also means that unless you look at this realistically and factor in all the causes then a satisfactory resolution is impossible. How your group feels about something does not outweigh reason and facts.

This made me think about the other point that Reverend Jackson made, the one concerning class bias.
So I went looking for the Zaid Jilani article he was referring to and I found it.

For the 441 police killings I researched, the average neighborhood family income where a killing occurred was $57,764. The median family income was $52,907.
Just over five percent of the killings were in neighborhoods with over $100,000 median family income. The richest neighborhood that saw a killing was the 700 block on 14th street in northwest Washington, D.C.
This skews against what the actual income variation in America is. A household income of $100,000 or more puts you in the top 21% of American income earners; this means that incomes below this number are overrepresented by four times compared to the income distribution in how often they are killed by police.

Being black makes you twice as likely to be killed by cops, but being middle-class or poor makes you four times as likely to be killed by cops. In fact, according to this article, "95 percent of reported police killings were in neighborhoods with incomes under $100,000."
Looking at this from face value, the greater determining factor of whether you are going to be shot by the cops is the amount of cash in your pocket and where you live, not the color of your skin. If you stay out of middle-class and poor neighborhoods you have almost zero danger of being shot by cops.

And speaking of where you live, I made a quick look and found this.

White (and Asian-American) middle-income families tend to live in middle-income neighborhoods. Black middle-income families tend to live in distinctly lower-income ones.

So besides the fact that the median black income is lower than the median white income, middle-class blacks often live in poorer neighborhoods. Neighborhoods where cops tend to be more trigger-happy based on its income.
Also note how Asian-American middle-class families live in better neighborhoods and get shot by cops at half of the rate of whites. This data point runs counter to the theory that the primary problem is racial bias, while supporting the theory that the primary problem is class bias.

Interestingly, commenters to Zaid Jilani's article suggested that rich people don't get shot because they don't commit crimes. So Zaid Jilani followed up his original article with this one, where he makes a very poignant observation.

Jeffrey Reiman is a criminologist, sociologist and philosopher based at American University. In 1979, Reiman published the first edition of the book, The Rich Get Richer, The Poor Get Prison. The book had a simple but counterintuitive thesis: the rich are actually committing society's most destructive crimes in terms of both financial damage and loss of human lives, but our criminal justice system is harshest toward the poorest Americans, whose crimes inflict the least damage.
"If it takes you an hour to read this chapter, by the time you reach the last page, two of your fellow citizens will have been murdered. During that same time, more than six Americans will die as a result of unhealthy or unsafe conditions in the workplace. Although these work- related deaths were due to human actions, they are not called murders. Why not? Doesn't a crime by any other name still cause misery and suffering? What's in a name?"

The poor commit the lion's share of street crime, but widespread, destructive crime is the domain of the wealthy.
The average punishment for homicide is six years. The punishment for negligence by an employer in a workplace death is generally a modest fine.
The double-standards in punishment based on class are everywhere these days. For instance, from yesterday's news.

With the blessing of the White House and the Justice Department, the Department of Housing and Urban Development is attempting to sneak through a major policy change that would enable big banks convicted of felonies to continue lending through a federal mortgage program, according to federal records and government officials.

When it comes to the common serfs at the mercy of HUD administration, such as people living in public housing, they can be evicted for suspected criminal activity regardless of whether they've actually been arrested or convicted.

This is not to say that racism isn't a factor in police killings. That seems self-evident. Although the degree that racism is involved is up for debate.
It does leave open the question of where some of this racism is coming from. Let me refer the reader to this photo from last year.

Be honest. When you see the Ferguson police tank below with the machine gunner, your reaction was, "Is this Ferguson or Fallujah?"
Or was your reaction, "Why in the Hell does a police force need a goddamn MRAP?"

When you take a group of men and train them like they are going to war, dress them like they are going to war, arm them with military-grade equipment, and use terms like "war on drugs" and "war on crime", is it really a surprise when they start acting like they are at war?
Doesn't it make sense that someone in that situation might be more incline to be of the attitude of being ready to "pop off" a few shots when they enter a "bad neighborhood" (i.e. where poor people live)?

Another data point to consider is the historically poor record of intergrating police forces. (i.e. Black Cops Aren't Better For Black Communities Just Because They Have The Same Skin Color).

So what is one of the first things that happen in a war? Dehumanizing the enemy.
 photo jap_zpsmpdwalnc.jpg
It's not hard to find incidents of our troops calling locals "ragheads" and "sandn*ggers", not to mention countless act is individual racism against people who may or may not look muslim here at home.
As if it wasn't obvious enough, just last month Wesley Clark called for the return of internment camps, which just shows even racist policies from the history book can be made new again if we ignore the lessons of history.

America has a very long history of racist foreign policy.
From post-Civil War Latin American policy, to the Philippine Occupation, to the Internment of Japanese during WWII.
Generally our foreign policy is less overtly racist now. At least today's politicians will deny being racist anyway.

Our police forces are being armed by a foreign war of choice that is inherently racist.

Does anyone doubt that if Obama's bombs were killing nice white British teeangers or smiling blond Swiss infants - rather than unnamed Yemenis, Pakistanis, Afghans and Somalis - that the reaction to this sustained killing would be drastically different? Does anyone doubt that if his overhead buzzing drones were terrorizing Western European nations rather than predominantly Muslim ones, the horror of them would be much easier to grasp?
Amazingly, some Democratic partisans, in order to belittle these injustices, like to claim that only those who enjoy the luxury of racial and socioeconomic privilege would care so much about these issues. That claim is supremely ironic. It reverses reality. That type of privilege is not what leads one to care about and work against these injustices. To the contrary, it's exactly that privilege that causes one to dismiss concerns over these injustices and mock and scorn those who work against them. The people who insist that these abuses are insignificant and get too much attention are not the ones affected by them, because they're not Muslim, and thus do not care.

It takes a great deal of effort to not see the connection between a racist foreign war -> military war weapons going to local police forces -> local police forces killing people in a racist way.
It makes no sense to ignore the obvious connection, and it makes even less sense to start at the end.

What is also curious is how the problem of the militarization of the police force has been somewhat forgotten without being fixed.

Even after Barack Obama, prompted by Ferguson, ordered a government-wide review of the provision of military hardware to police, lethal weaponry, vehicles, equipment and cash continue to funnel down to police – only now with more layers of red tape.

It appears that the issue of police shootings is far more complex and touches on far more issues, both domestic and foreign, both racial and class, than how the issue is being discussed today. We aren't doing ourselves any favors by dumbing down the debate.

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gulfgal98's picture

I was already starting to look up statistics to refute where I originally thought you were going with this and then I got it. Yes, blacks are definitely being killed at a greater percentage of the population than whites, so we cannot discount racism. But when you throw in economic class, there is definitely an even stronger correlation which explains why we are so reluctant to prosecute high earning white collar criminals.

So we have a two prong problem in this country. We have never gotten past racism, either overt or hidden. That is a given, but it is not the entire problem.

But the second part of the problem is the culture behind our law enforcement agencies and the people we are hiring to work there. I would also venture that the same culture behind our law enforcement agencies is one in which violence is glorified. The issue is so complex and generational, that I am having a really hard time wrapping my head around it.

In other words, the very people we have hired to serve and protect us should not be killing anyone, regardless of race. The culture is one of a battlefield with war like memes guiding the daily interactions between law enforcement and the citizens, often resulting in people being killed over the most minor of infractions. How did we spiral downward so badly?

Your diary is a compelling look at this issue from a different angle, one of a bigger picture. I wonder how this would go over at another site? Not well, I assume. I may have more comments later after thinking more about this.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

because I don't have much faith in the people there.
Even the statement of "this issue is far more complex than a simple 3-word statement" will get a very negative reaction.
Even using actual numbers to back up this claim will get a very negative reaction.

But I felt the case needed to be made, so I posted it here where there are adults.
Please feel free to point out flaws.

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gulfgal98's picture

broached the subject from a more global aspect which means it will fly high over many heads over there. He is far more intellectual than my own tiny mind, but he has made a point that even I was able to understand. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/13/1411596/-For-a-better-way-than-...

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“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

MarilynW's picture

I find myself reading and rec-ing everything he writes.

ps gg, you do not have a tiny mind and you have a really big heart.

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To thine own self be true.

gulfgal98's picture

that comment brought a tear to my eyes.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

as your constant thoughtful humanity. Your "tiny mind" is one of my favorite things about this place and one of the main reasons I check in daily.

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Big Al's picture

security/prison complex is out of control in this country, regardless of race. But institutional and overt racism toward
the black population has a long and sordid history and is still far too prevalent. The issue of racism itself can't be resolved
without direct focus however the issue of the law enforcement/security/prison complex can't be resolved by solely focusing
on racism. There are overlaps and factors that lead to the very foundation of our society.

I've hated the pigs for as long as I can remember, going back to the sixties. One reason is because I watched on TV, as a white kid
in a white place, the bastards train their dogs and fire hoses on the blacks when they were marching for civil rights.
I've lived my life relatively on the edge of state obedience and have watched out for the pigs for most of it. When I see a pig
my blood pressure raises and I look at them, no matter who they are, with disdain. It's probably similar to what people in far away
places feel like when they have to put up with the American occupying force in their countries. Most white people I know certainly
don't take it as far as I do, but many do. A lot of it depends on how "obedient" they are living their lives here in the company store.
But I can't imagine what it would be liked to be black and face this occupying force of ours. I could surmise that many would feel
ten times the angst I feel when they see a pig. It just can't compare in that way, the profiling is far more extensive. I imagine many
feel like they do live on the boundaries of society just because of the color of their skin.

The law enforcement/security/prison complex has melded with the Military Industrial complex during this War On Terror the U.S.
is waging on the planet. The worldwide actions and results of the MIC and U.S. imperialism are overtly racist as it attacks brown
and black people for their resources and to keep them down. To change the ever expanding police state will require challenging
the War OF Terror and U.S. imperialism as well as the racist and class culture in the criminal justice system. It will require challenging
the power structure of this country, the ruling class, because in the end that's who the pigs work for. In that way it is a Class struggle
more than a race struggle.
I guess the trick is how we're going to balance this out when we take down the billionaires.

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expatjourno's picture

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Hillary: Making sure women get a bigger piece of the middle-class pie that her neoliberal, DLC, pro-Wall Street, pro-Pentagon, pro-TPP, Republican-lite economic policies are designed to shrink.

Are you new here or just new to me at c99%? Either way welcome. It is great to have you hear.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

great to have you here, make yourself at home.

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Unabashed Liberal's picture

shortcut is okay).

Wink

This is a mellow and friendly venue--look forward to seeing you, here!

Mollie


"The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart."--Helen Keller

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

gulfgal98's picture

I expect to see you commenting often here. Wink You avatar looks interesting but I cannot tell what it is. Is it a castle?

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

MarilynW's picture

of all races combined than against the middle class and above.

This is just an example, a personal anecdote not to prove my point but to illustrate it.
When I was poor with 3 kids, I tried to open a bank account at the Royal Bank of Canada with my Family Allowance cheque.
It was a black teller who laughed at me.
"are you trying to open a bank account with that? hahaha!"
That wasn't racism, it was bigotry against a poor person.

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To thine own self be true.

Great diary, it is too bad that dkos is built to shut down rational conversations.

Before BLM forced this into a single issue about racism, Bernie said, "you know who gets Killed by cops? Poor people!" I still don't understand how black people gain anything by militantly limiting the size and scope of the problem to black people. I am seeing more and more comments about where's the rage when my white, Native American son, daughter etc is killed? All BLM did by getting pissed off when non-black people tried to share their stories and pain is alienate allies. While I understand BLMs anger, i don't understand how they let their emotions undermine the case for reform and their own best interests.
I'm on my phone in my tiny little window. Hope this can be read.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

gulfgal98's picture

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

smiley7's picture

Bernie is best candidate for minority voters:

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gulfgal98's picture

came directly from a speech he made to Occupy Tallahassee in Jan. 2012. We were a very small Occupation, but Dr. West took time out from his very busy itinerary to come by and speak to us and then spend some time with us there before going to a paid speaking engagement at Florida State University. I met Dr. West, got a warm,wonderful hug (he is a hugger) from him and spoke briefly with him. Cornel West is what I would call a humanist. He is a very warm human being and seems to honestly care about all of God's children. While he has said in the past that no one politician gets it right all the time, he seems to have a very warm spot in his heart for Bernie, so I am not surprised at his comment on CNN.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

mimi's picture

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why so many embraced the slogan "Black Lives Matter". It's catchy, easy to remember, and works in both a chant and an accusation.

The problem is taking it not as a slogan, but as the name of a movement. You are automatically excluding the similar grievances of other races. You make it all about one race. The opportunity to bring people together under a common cause was lost.

The error was compounded by getting offended and outraged by someone saying, "all lives matter." Instead of hearing that and saying, "yes that is true, however...", BLM instead took it as some sort of racial attack, even a challenge. Which is wasn't. Suddenly this was all about victimization of blacks.

For instance, there is a lot of talk about whites and blacks here, but when is the last time anyone has mentioned latinos? They get profiled and shot by police too. A lot.
But they got excluded from the movement the same way whites got excluded, because the chant isn't "brown lives matter". Like most whites, they are spectators to this movement.

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"White supremacist liberals" (44+ / 0-)
Sorry. There's just no taking that back.
I do not support BLM. I don't support their tactics. And I'm not even sure I share their agenda. I mean, what agenda could possibly be served by calling liberals white supremacists?
I have been a civil rights activist since I was a teenager. I've been arrested, kicked, beaten and spit upon, all to fight for the rights of black Americans to live the kind of life other Americans take for granted.
I will not be bullied or cowed into silence when I see someone committing an act that is wrong. Period.
What I saw in Seattle (and Netroots Nation) was nothing less than violence against the last people on Earth who deserved it. No blows were struck. But when you get up in someone's face and shout them down, you are committing violence against that person.
That is wrong.
I'm 78 years old. I've seen these tactics before. They don't work.
I've also seen all manners of ways people can be cruel to each other. And for all reasons.
Blacks are not the first people to suffer oppression. Nor will they be the last. I'm Jewish and Irish. "My people" have seen our share. Native Americans. I could go on and on.
The point is, we simply can't allow our oppression and suffering, no matter how severe, to exempt us from doing the right thing.
If you have a problem with a group of people, and the most efficient means by which to identify that group of people is by their skin color, then you are a fucking racist.
Period.
This place has descended into madness if it is acceptable to attack people just because the color of their skin. Even if their skin is white.
Look at these kids.

They all died fighting racism in the south.
You are a disgrace to them if you can't recognize that any kind of racism, no matter by whom, is wrong.
"White progressives".
You think they're your problem? Then you are not only a racist, but an idiot.
That's what my first wife thinks. She's black, as are my children, and she thinks BLM and this whole "white people are the enemy" gang here are idiots. She thinks I'm an idiot for even wasting my time here.
But I don't believe it's idiocy. I think it started as a way to silence progressive critics of president Obama's right wing agenda. And now it's grown into a full fledged operation to dive and conquer the American left.
I think this was a good old fashioned ratfucking. And that's something I know a lot about.
Well guess what. It won't work. I'm going to keep fighting for the rights of people of color. I've been involved for 25 years in various campaigns to get reparations for descendents of slaves. I will continue, in the ways that I know how, to fight for the absolute, single most important way to help blacks, and that is economic equality.
You want to know who else the police harass, murder, and violate? POOR PEOPLE.
I will continue that fight until I'm dead.
I will continue to fight for progressive economic policies and the principle that all Americans have a right to a decent life, with decent housing, decent income, good health care, and a secure, stable society and ecology to live in.
Period.
You want to put your support and your time behind people who've taken the power of martyrdom that comes from being genuine victims of injustice, and pissed it away (somewhat) on attacking and alienating the most supportive, active, and productive allies that the black community has ever had?
Good luck.
by rocklawyer on Thu Aug 13, 2015 at 01:29:07 AM EDT
[ Parent | Reply to This | Recommend Hide ]
Loomk at these kids (6+ / 0-)
I don't know why my image didn't post. Here it is.

by rocklawyer on Thu Aug 13, 2015 at 01:31:32 AM EDT
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Still on phone. Hope this isn't all garbled.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Big Al's picture

"What I saw in Seattle (and Netroots Nation) was nothing less than violence against the last people on Earth who deserved it."

I say bullshit. Wonder what he'd say if the same thing was done to Trump instead of Sanders. At any rate, what some Sanders
supporters don't seem to get is not everybody thinks their candidate is the best thing since sliced bread. And many think his
running with the Democratic party, which many feel is a ruling class appendage, makes him just as much as target as Hillary Clinton.

I'm seeing a bunch of old fogy white people getting all uppity about shit they would support in other circumstances not related to
their political candidate.

And of course, that's an opinion and a generalization.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

smiley7's picture

from the Seattle protest. The woman has her arm around Bernie, holding him; furthermore, the same woman pushed the moderator several times, he is elderly as well. Were circumstances different, both these actions would easily be prosecuted as assault. Take a close look.

Now, that you've seen this, consider Sanders 'remarks later on Monday at the National Nurses Brunch endorsement. From the floor of the crowd, Bernie was asked do BLMatter? He answered, "yes Black Lives Matter." Then someone yelled do you support the tactics of BLM and Bernie answered "yes."

He's a gentleman and a half in my book.

On another note; we are still waiting for the BLM Boston video tape of their meeting with Clinton???

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smiley7's picture

kos search engine is worthless, thanks.

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smiley7's picture

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To wuss?

Marissa Johnson Doesn’t “Give A F*ck” If Her Protest Of Bernie Sanders Drives People Away from BLM
http://www.liberalamerica.org/2015/08/11/marissa-johnson-doesnt-give-fck...

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

shaharazade's picture

Takes it all in stride. I mean this is nutsoland at this point and I think Bernie is good and nimble at side stepping the pitfalls of insanity that our political circus has become.

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smiley7's picture

referring to Donald Trump's statement about Bernie being "a wuss," I do believe. Smile Yeah, Trump said that.

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Voters like strong leaders even if they're nuts. If it doesn't stop, it will make him look weak at some point.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Unabashed Liberal's picture

after I finish my labor intensive blog project. (Needless to say, the lovely weather is not helping things.)

Biggrin

I suspect, like Al, that at least 'some' of the distress expressed at DKos is due to electoral considerations.

And, as I posted recently, if the two RCP gentlemen that I heard on XM earlier this week are truly 'in the know,' this issue will be a political football that the Repubs will eagerly exploit going into the general election. My feeling is that it will be a volatile issue, even without outside agitation from conservative Republicans. I would imagine that the Dem Party Establishment is near-panicked.

Regarding Jesse Jackson--from what I've read at BAR (Black Agenda Report), both Jackson and Sharpton are considered to be 'part of' the Black Misleadership Class. IOW, they, and other former black Civil Rights activists from the 1960's, are considered to be sell-outs, and therefore, part of the problem. (This is the writers', and some of the young black activists' viewpoints, as I understand it--just to be clear).

Also, many of the BLM activists view them (Jackson, Sharpton, etc.) as folks who are sent in by the Dem Party Establishment/The Administration to quell their protests, and co-opt their activism efforts. IOW, they (BLM activists) don't necessarily view them as allies--they believe that the 'BMC' are involved, or engaged, mostly to mollify the Black Community. Not to help their cause.

Good diary, though. And I think you're correct that posting a diary on this topic at DKos, would probably be a waste of time. It seems that the serious ones are almost always completely disregarded.

Wink

Hope you Guys are having nice weather like we are, for a change. Have a good one, Folks!

Postscript: I 'wish' they would change their name, for cryin' out loud. After decades of federal service, and because our HQ Command was physically located next to a Bureau Of Land Management Office (at my last installation)--every time I see "BLM," I think of the federal BLM Agency.

Dash 1

Mollie


"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."--Author Unknown

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

I too think the conservatives are going to have a field day with this. Trump is already out there saying how no one was going to take his mic out of his hands. This is a gift from heaven to gin up racial divisiveness. Capitalizing on racism is the GOP's specialty. I think this is the end of Bernie, and Hillary never stood a chance. Now they are muttering about Gore jumping in.

DailyKos is toxic.. This diary would be tinder over there. I just left Swern's lily white diary and a follow-up by moviemeister drumming up rage and demanding that dfarrah (?) have his/her head offed for making a joke in Swern's diary about Shiz needing a slap. It was escalated all the way up to threats of violence against a women in a flurry of HRs.

Going to get much, much uglier.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

gulfgal98's picture

who had the guts to recommend bobswern's diary. I recommended it early before the dust up really blew up into an HR war. I think it is funny that in movie meister's diary, there were complaints about how "groups" function at dkos is bad since the biggest group actions over there come from the flying HR brigade who meets secretly off site. We are off site, but we are very open here and there is nothing secret about us or our posts here.

Now for my rec. I saw Bob's diary as a big fat swipe at Markos. The entire race war over there was started by kos himself. And he owns the "lily white" term. That said, after the brouhaha over Bob's diary title, I am having second thoughts about my recommendation, but what the hay? I am already branded over there.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

I also saw his diary when he first posted it. The title and Markos went over my head. God I wish I wasn't so obtuse. I decided no good could come of it given my pov on the whole issue of BLM and race so I just left and came here. How can they not see the irony in "white people have to STFU and listen" and "how to be a good ally". You are absolutely right about Kos starting and fanning the race war that goes on over there.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

gulfgal98's picture

and sometimes I think that is a very good thing. Dog knows, dkos could use it right now. Honestly, if Markos had not said what he did about Bernie's supporters, I doubt that I would have rec'd that diary. But sometimes you just have to take a leap off the edge.

I am sick and tired of people who only function as a result of outrage and never seem to have any solutions for the overwhelming problems we face in this country and in our world. I want to see them try to contribute instead of always being insulted and angry about what some stranger writes on a blog.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

So you shouldn't take it too seriously. It helps to have the proper attitude. If you become too emotionally invested (which you do have a tendency to do GG, bless your heart) it will make you depressed.
Some people have rage and a need to vent. They are anonymous as are you, and they don't care who is the target. When you are full of rage things tend to become black/white, right/wrong.

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and went back and dropped a tip and rec into his diary. Mostly for the swipe at Kos.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

I wouldn't mind seeing it if someone has a link.
moviemeister hates my guts, but I've seen her game and she's a moron. There's no point at all in debating her on anything because she's a mental midget.
I simply call her out and move on.

I've thought about it and I've decided that I am going to post this on GOS, but I'm not going to manage it. I'm simply going to put it out there and move on. There's enough actual facts that it can stand by itself. The people who flame it/me will be doing so out of emotions.

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Bobswern's diary is snark. Plain and simple. There was nothing offensive about it, unless you think everything is about you.
Those comments are a good example of everything that is wrong with liberals today.

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gulfgal98's picture

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

I'm banned from Kos for my angry comments. Not the end of the world I suppose....

There are so many mental midgets over at kos. They are unable to think clearly, jump to conclusions based on their imaginary interpretations of the written word, create strawmen based on these same imaginary interpretations, and lack reading comprehension.

They need to take some statistics courses so they can understand how to analyze data; some reading comprehension courses would help, too.

My lifetime of support doesn't matter any more than Bernie's lifetime of activism.

Time to stop whining and on to the chores of the day!!

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dfarrah

Unabashed Liberal's picture

Welcome!"

Here, we can actually engage in productive and civil discussion.

So, please make yourself at home!

Wink

Mollie


"The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart."--Helen Keller

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

I hope not!

Where did you see that?

And thanks for welcome.

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dfarrah

gulfgal98's picture

Bob posted it in last night's Evening Blues after he got an NR rating. He did not GBCW.

Hey Joe, and all the Bluesters... (20+ / 0-)

....just sending this along to let all know that I'm not going to be around the community, going forward. Time to skedaddle.

I'm not a big person when it comes to making noise about this sort of thing, so I hope you'll honor my request about this, as well.

Got reprimanded with an "NR" this evening. But, that was okay. (I think a lot of people here know me well enough to realize that type of thing really doesn't phase me. I'm sure some will think that this had something to do with why I'm leaving now, but it didn't.)

What was, in part, the straw that broke this camel's back, however, was finding out--in the past hour--that they let Kossack Blue Intrigue back as if they never left. I think they were on a timeout for about 10 minutes. Not really sure.

Above and beyond that, I am getting some, shall we say, pressure, in the real world, to stop blogging for business/political reasons, and that's been an ongoing "thing" for me for the nine years I've been here; but something I never really talked about until this evening. (But, the volume's been turned up on this in the past few months.) So, this seemed as good a time as any to make the move.

In any event, I wanted to leave some basic contact info here, if anyone would like to get in touch:

Email--bobswern@earthlink.net
Cell--917-656-7981
(By all means, feel free to contact me at any time.)

And, I want to let everyone reading this know that I'll miss the hell out of you guys. A LOT. (In fact, aside from a few people that don't frequent this blog series, this is just about the primary reason why I've stayed here as long as I have.) But, it's time to move on.

Take care. Good health, happiness and peace to all.

Spread the love,
--Bob

Joe responded with this:

evening bob... (13+ / 0-)

this site will be quite diminished for lack of your many fine contributions, but i totally understand. the election silly season is certainly a time when the nasty gets cranked up to 11.

if it's any consolation, i'd imagine that the interest in quelling your blogging is a kind of perverse measure of the quality of what you've created here.

i hope that everything goes well for you and i hope to see you elsewhere at some later date.

Bob's last comment:

Thanks Joe... (14+ / 0-)

...I do want to add a note that the extent of the Kossack's stalking of me was considerably more extensive than people in this community might realize. But, again, even that's not the primary reason why I'm leaving.

Take care.

This will be my last comment.

I am going to miss Bob's posts over there. He refused to suffer fools and there were a lot of them who dogged his diaries regularly. It appears that dkos simply wants an echo chamber and that is exactly what Markos is getting.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

I sent him a 'best wishes' email

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dfarrah

Unabashed Liberal's picture

low key, so maybe it's best for us to give him our regards over at the 8/14/15 EB, or using the contact info that he left in his comments, there. (To suit his wishes.)

I had very often 'rec'd' him, but honestly, had never personally engaged with him. So, I was reluctant to leave him a reply. (He'd probably say, "who the heck is that?").

Wink

Anyway, here's a link to last night's EB--his commens were toward the bottom.

Again, nice to see you here.

Mollie


"The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart."--Helen Keller

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

gulfgal98's picture

I went ahead and copied the exchange where Bob announced he was leaving. He did NOT GBCW, so he should not be banned.

Bob was an automatic rec from me. I appreciated all of his diaries. He was a straight shooter and you knew exactly where he stood on everything. As I posted above, Bob did not suffer fools which I greatly respected him for that.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Unabashed Liberal's picture

didn't imply that he did.

Sounded like he was just wanting to 'move on,' or pursue some other activities. At least, that's what I took away from his comments.

(And since I didn't know him well, maybe I even misunderstood that. He was an excellent diarist. I very much wish him well.)

Wink

Mollie


"The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart."--Helen Keller

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

gulfgal98's picture

I do not think anyone thought that from your post. I just wanted folks here to know that Bob was not banned because he GBCW'd. And BTW, he is a member here, but it sounds like there are other work related issues involved, so he probably will not post here for a while at least. I would love it if he did because he had so much to offer in his diaries.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

mimi's picture

imo stupid enough. Dailykos has regulations that I don't respect. I will miss Bob Swern's diaries.

That it is a matter of "courage" to rec a diary of Bob Swern is a real outlandish concept. I have understood that the way they structured their rec and rating system including those other "rules" are just "laws you have to accept and obey by unchallenged and unquestioned. It's true that nobody can walk in another person's shoes. It's true for all the shoes that are out ther. That makes a true conversation almost impossible. I left a remark in Dee's diary today to that regard knowing it would be met with silence. I can enjoy and respect all the fact based information I get through black kos and Dee's diaries. JekylnHyde gave a response that was good, but what I would have to say to challenge it, I won't say. It's not a matter of not being able to "really listen". Lots of people can't "really listen" and the reasons for that are not even considered or talked about.

Anyhow. I can only say that I feel much more comfortable with the way you structured here recs and no HR here.

If the EBs won't be posted any longer on dailykos, there won't be much left worth reading for me. Well, we will see how they keep their heads over the water. One needs to work together to accomplish anything, I believe. I will dance on two weddings, if I am not thrown out. Smile

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hecate's picture

rule that if one inscibes a GBCW diary, one gets banned, that was imposed back when mahakali overdive and the Shiz were GBCWing about every other week . . . and then coming back. It was determined this was a form of drama the site didn't need (as if the site is otherwise drama-free), and that therefore if one GBCWed, admin would make sure the person meant it. For a time one could inscribe a "Ta Ta For Now" (TTFN) diary, which usually invoved somebody being outraged over something, and announcing the outrage was so severe s/he would leave for a while, but then intended to come back. But then Markos had a big public meltdown about those, and said he'd treat a TTFN just like a GBCW, if he Felt Like It.

Peeder, who designed the rec/HR/TU etc. system for Markos, described it over on Maryscott's site once as a video game. And said that's what Markos wanted.

You start out as newb, and then, through accumulating points—by commenting, diarying, reccing—you become a TU. That allows you to look into the special secret Bad People sewer, and also to send people there. You can identify "enemies," and then barrage them with HRs, to send them to the special secret Bad People sewer; maybe you can even HR them out of the "game"—that is, banning. You meanwhile accumulate "friends," so you yourself don't get HRed out of the game. If you sustain HR "damage," or if you don't contribute enough, your TU goes down, and so you have to play the game more, to build it back up. And so on. You "win" the game by getting appointed to the FP.

Peeder was much more eloquent than I, but that's the gist of it.

Bannings were once permanent, but now that people can petition to return—which seems to basically involve weeping in contrition at Markos' knees—it is even more like a video game. Because the players never really die. They can come back again. And they have and they do. All the time.

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mimi's picture

history".

I think I had suffered under this system in not liking it for a long time but trying to be as considerate as possible. Slowly I have gotten worse in throwing in "inappropriate" comments, because some of it just got too much on my nerves. Today it reminds me of something, I even don't want to say out loud here.

It's certainly not something positive. I believe that silently many people have come to understand the flaws of that system, but still are scared to criticize it openly.

Too bad. If it weren't for the emotional addiction and dependency of that site's "conversation" and "eyes" to combat isolation, it wouldn't be as bad as I see it. I remember the mockery some got to have "come back". Well, we will see, where it ends up. May be they manage to kill their own site one day with that kind of "humanity". Let's hope the professional serious content providers will "save and seize the days to come", but often I rather doubt they will be able to do so.

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mimi's picture

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hecate's picture

long gone. He banned himself. One of only two people over there ever to do that.

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mimi's picture

too smart for the job... quite some decision to make.

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gulfgal98's picture

This so perfectly captures the whole social structure of dkos and actually of how Markos views the game he has set up. Laughing all the way to the bank or whatever. It really does not matter if some real people are the victims of this game. It is all about the game or the hose race, it is all the same.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Lord of the Flies - ish, from what you write.

Silly me, I never realized I was to compete somehow; I thought we were just increasing/sharing our knowledge and sharing/arguing our opinions.

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dfarrah

There is no reasoning with most of the people over there. The place is truly toxic.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

gulfgal98's picture

Welcome dfarrah! Smile

We encourage discussion and if we disagree, we do so amiably.

I want to encourage you to participate and do not be shy about writing a diary. It can be on anything you want. Sometimes we need a break from serious stuff, so write away! BTW, you will find the formatting here far friendlier than at dkos.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

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dfarrah

Unabashed Liberal's picture

stopped to order pizza online--Jeeezzz!

Bottom line, I do sincerely believe that Bernie will be fine--that these protests haven't/won't do any damage to his campaign.

Again, IMO, mostly Dem Party activists are closely following the nuances regarding the protests. It seems that the MSM is too worried about Trump--since he has threatened an "Independent" run--to get into the weeds regarding #BLM.

Now, the MSM is beginning to heavily cover the massive crowds that Bernie garners. They seem to be truly blown away by this turn of events.

Love it!

Wink

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Just to lighten things up (regarding politics), I'm posting a sad story about a police dog/officer killed in the line of duty this week.

Like Falco had a choice in the matter--being a canine 'cop,' that is. Makes me furious, frankly.

But, at least, we can honor his memory.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Slain Police Dog, Falco, #2.png

DRAMATIC EAST TOLEDO STANDOFF
Police K-9 killed along with suspect after chase


‘We have heavy hearts right now,’ chief says'

8/12/2015
BY LAUREN LINDSTROM
BLADE STAFF WRITER

A Toledo Police K-9 was shot and killed and a man died Wednesday after the dog and its partner chased a pair of suspected car thieves into a vacant house in East Toledo.

A news conference is scheduled today to address the fatal shootings of the K-9 and the man who police say shot the dog. One suspect died and police apprehended the other after the dog was shot.

Chief George Kral at 3 p.m. will speak about the death of the suspect and Falco, a German shepherd killed in the line of duty at 1137 Earl St. in East Toledo. The news conference will take place at the Safety Building.

A police spokesman reached today declined to name the two men or discuss details of the shootings.

The police officer who handled the K-9 is Samantha Snowberger.

Late Wednesday night, police officers lined a path leading away from a vacant East Toledo house, hands on hearts, as Falco’s body was wheeled out and taken away with a police escort.

The small crowd on the scene remained hushed at the sight, some removing their hats or taking cell phone video.

Officer Snowberger placed her hand on the dog’s body as her colleagues embraced her. . . . [my emphasis]

Slain Police Dog, Falco.png


"Rest In Peace, Falco"

Mollie


"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."--Author Unknown

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

gulfgal98's picture

It is going to take more than this to slow the current momentum plus, I have not seen another campaign that is so nimble in responding to "glitches" such as Sanders has done. We must remember that he is the most approachable and publicly visible candidate thus far. Every campaign is going to have a setback at some point. It is how the campaign handles it that counts.

As a contrast, Clinton still remains cloistered and basically non-committal about the issues, other than an occasional "me too" triangulated policy statement. Eventually that is going to catch up with her, if it is not already happening.

As a fellow animal lover, I am very sad about Falco too. Sad

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Since I got banned, I don't get to see what other ridiculous accusations of me were made.

Yeah, they're on the crazy side over there. Imagine a poster hyperventilating over a diary! I think I got accused of being sexist too, as if Shiz hadn't described herself as being so upset that she talked about breathing in a bag.

Then I joked about us (progressives) being lily white varmints, playing on Kos's words 'lily white Vermonters', and someone hid that as well.

Oh well, I was very caustic in my comments; however I've seen plenty of nasty comments over the years that did not lead to hide rates and banning. I'll cool it now.

The bias and double standards over there are incredible.

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dfarrah

elenacarlena's picture

STDDs at DKos is beginning a letter-writing campaign to push MBOPRA and Medicaid expansion forward. Please see tonight's diary there if you're interested. MBOPRA will help lower the rate of police brutality toward all, hopefully. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/14/1412208/-Sick-of-Police-Killing...

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

lotlizard's picture

http://digbysblog.blogspot.de/2015/08/whats-old-is-new-again-digital-tar...

This is as good an explanation as any about how rational discussion gets shut down and people ostracized, not just at universities, but at Certain Other Forums.

Now universities seem intent on fostering a sanitized, "bubble boy" intellectual environment free of "microaggressions," and one that reinforces hypersensitivity and hypervigilance.

Lukianoff and Haidt continue:

Because there is a broad ban in academic circles on “blaming the victim,” it is generally considered unacceptable to question the reasonableness (let alone the sincerity) of someone’s emotional state, particularly if those emotions are linked to one’s group identity. The thin argument “I’m offended” becomes an unbeatable trump card. This leads to what Jonathan Rauch, a contributing editor at this magazine, calls the “offendedness sweepstakes,” in which opposing parties use claims of offense as cudgels. In the process, the bar for what we consider unacceptable speech is lowered further and further.

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I read the entire article and found the analysis very interesting. The examples that were provided in the article, of people targeted by the Offended, are amazing in demonstrating the preposterousness of the Offended.

Are the Offended the only ones who can talk now?

The behavior is bullying and abuse; it follows the same pattern of targeting and baseless accusations that workplace bullying does.

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dfarrah

It served us well for many generations. Now words and thoughts are acts of violence. People need to toughen up, not expect the world to revolve around them.

me & globe photo worldme9fv.gif

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

gulfgal98's picture

is bullying, and we have seen a lot of that lately.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

The bullying starts with the HR and the ganging up that occurs. The fluid and subjective rules and the arbitrary and inconsistent application of them allow Kos to enshrine whatever groups or dogma he might please. At DK, they can say stfu and make you.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

gulfgal98's picture

I would also add that by shutting down discourse of differing (not necessarily opposing) opinions leads to infantalism and a dearth of ideas. I avoid certain diaries like the plague because I know that if I open my mouth, no mater what I say, it will not be right or enough. The flying HR brigade makes it impossible to have a conversation of varying or different points of view without being brutally silenced. Telling someone to STFU treats the other party like a child and certainly does not further the conversation. While certain subjects are fraught with emotional baggage, it still helps to have a dialogue even if the dialogue is uncomfortable. When people are told to STFU and listen, then there is no dialogue.

As a Peace activist, I have learned that one of the most important things for me each time we have our Peace vigil is to have a conversation. And by a conversation, that means that I must listen to the people we engage, even if they hold an opposing view on the current wars. By making it a two way conversation, we create a dialogue and I have found that often we can find some commonalities even if our overall views differ. It is just as important, if not even more important, to treat those whom you may view as adversaries with respect. And respect means listening to their points of view. It opens up the pathway to communication and everyone of us needs to open our paths to communicate with our fellow human beings if we are ever going to solve the enormous problems facing us.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy