Overthrow Democracy?
Now I'm not naive enough to believe the U.S. is a bastion of democratic principle; heck, we typically get shit choices for 'elections' and undoubtedly that is by design. But, for now, it is what it is, and recent events and babble prompted some thoughts to roll through my mind. One in particular is my questioning the wisdom, or rather a complete lack of this wisdom, to 'overthrow' the recent election result.
I see explicit calls for such, in various thread headlines, across the internet. Things like:
"...Give Courts Legal Authority To Install Clinton"
"...another reason to support ditching Trump ala the Electoral College..."
Just a couple, but demonstrates a grave blind spot, that could very well serve as a catalyst of serious consequence. Can you imagine if something like a court were to install Clinton? What would happen if the Electoral College reneged the technical Trump win, and chose otherwise? What follows is what I see as the major blind spot and fallacy of these 'calls to action.'
The U.S. is touted as the pinnacle of Democracy. Exceptional, infallible, strong and righteous democracy of the highest standards. Historically, for many decades, our U.S. military is touted as the protector and defender of democracy. They have been lionized as heroes for such deeds, across the world. The mantra of 'defenders of freedom and democracy' has resonated and instilled within millions of citizens, veterans and active duty alike. Never mind whether you think it true/false, personally, it is indisputable that many, many people hold that true. I admit that even in the face of contrary evidence, it is hard to find fault with those that might have found themselves with little option, to engage, then lose themselves, family or friends, and might continue holding such notions close in order to cope.
It is also quite common to hear active/veteran military quote something like, "I disagree with what you say, but will fight to the death your right to say it." That defense of Constitution is a mandate of military service. The very limbs and lives of each veteran and soldier is risked for the notions of "democracy and Constitution." This is what they learn and repeat as their ideals.
Now, look at the latest from the newsrooms and blogosphere:
The Democratic party wants to censor speech because they disagree.
The U.S. democratic institution is weak and fallible.
The Democratic party wants to overturn the election and install their candidate instead.
These latest claims contradict everything our military and veterans have been told, what they know about U.S. democracy and what they stand for; goes against everything the fabric of their being has been drenched with throughout their service.
Not only that, but these latest calls also oppose their own personal, political leanings:
http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/this-poll-of-the-us-military-has-g...
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/11/02/survey-career-oriented-tro...
http://www.aol.com/article/news/2016/09/12/gary-johnson-tops-presidentia...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maciej-bartkowski/popular-uprising-against...
The active military, veterans, and military households mostly preferred Trump, over Clinton. But, this is not to say that only the military-involved Trump supporters would resist a complete flip of the U.S. democratic institutions that have served to this point, as I would think the ideals themselves, that are ingrained, would prompt even the Clinton supporters to oppose an unprecedented and complete overturn of an election result.
Look across the world, over some history...what happens when democratically elected leaders are forced out? What happened in Ukraine? What happened in Syria? What usually happens when a democratically elected leader is ejected is that people fight back for their lost agency; this democratic agency is usually perceived as a very crucial and important ideal that they are willing to sacrifice their lives.
Sure, the current spin puts the blame on foreign, Russian influence, to hopefully appease, but that seems a gamble. Remembering that more of these veterans supported Trump, the Russian gambit hopes to persuade them that these soldiers, the heroic defenders of democracy, were all stupid dupes that fell for enemy propaganda? They are supposed to convince themselves that they are too dumb and gullible, so they should relinquish their choice in favor or a complete upending of the longstanding democratic institution and Constitution that they and their friends lose limbs and lives? Good luck with that.
Given the typical demographics, that the Democratic Party members are typically anti-gun, it seems questionable to aggravate and aggrieve, with a complete annihilation of the democratic principles many people are willing to die for, with most of the opposition being well armed, where both history and current examples abound to illustrate the type of violence that occurs when such a tactic is attempted.
This all seems very unwise and almost suicidal. This is not to say I think this will happen, but there is enough doubt and tenuousness, that I can't help but question the sanity for these calls to overturn the election.
Comments
This will all be over by next week.
Then the Purple Princess can slink off to Chappaqua and dictate her memoir blaming everybody but herself for the state of the world, and her Presidential consort can finally take up permanent residence on that private island where topless 13-year-old nubiles serve him cocktails of prune juice and viagra.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
No! She should be arrested for advocating treason.
Or will Comey give her a mulligan on that too? She is calling for an unConstitutional power grab.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Sedition, not treason
She doesn't want to betray the country, she wants to rule it.
That's literally what she's up to, and what her diehard advocates are calling for.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Sedition
As in Honduras, with our immediate, if not prior, support.
I stand corrected!
Sedition.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
I still can't figure out what
I still can't figure out what I'm supposed to be outraged about regarding Russia. They didn't hack into voting machines and change the tallies. They didn't break into government servers. Somebody successfully phished John Podesta, because he's an idiot, and provided the contents to a third party then released them. What am I missing?
You're not missing anything
The latest CIA thing had me going for awhile...the "why?"
But pays to remember that fear, discord, disorientation is always a 'good thing.' The more, the better to reap policies and payoffs in both the interim and long run. It continues to work...for the few.
Granted, the gullible falling for it are thinning. But over time, the insular and protective measures against pushback, have been heavily fortified, so there is not much that can be safely done to oppose anything our government imposes.
If Russia hacked the elections wouldn't you want hand recounts?
[edit] Sloppy pronoun use. Meant that those claiming Russia hacked should want hand recounts. That they don't is odd.
I believe asterion's point is that it doesn't appear that the
Russians did hack the election. All they did was to bring certain facts to light that many of us already suspected. Maybe. Or someone else did.
I'm wondering if all this uproar is the result of warring factions within the Deep State. We probably can't know.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
Right.
There seems to be an odd behavioral inconsistency between those asserting Russia hacked/subverted the US elections. They stop there. No interest in examining the ballots, recounts, machines, nothing.
If I was convinced someone had hacked the elections I'd want at least hand recounts.
Seems odd to me.
No recount.
I don't think they're arguing the vote is inaccurate. I think their argument is that Russia leaked what appears to be accurate information about the Clinton campaign that caused people either to vote for Trump or to not vote for president. There are few things as corrupting as the truth.
We now hear that some of the leaks are fake. There is no effort to separate the accurate leaks from the fake leaks, nor have I heard anyone in the media suggest it. I find that interesting.
That does appear to be the sum total of crimes involved.
The Clinton campaign truly died the death of a thousand self-inflicted cuts.
It almost always is deep state ideological craziness.
It's where the colossal blunders in US foreign policy are born. The ones that deliver all the disastrous unintended consequences.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Yes, which is why I'm a
Yes, which is why I'm a proponent of optical scan ballots. But there's no proof that anything like that happened. This is still all about internal DNC emails, is it not?
Optical scan ballots are not immune to hacking.
But there is a paper trail.
But there is a paper trail. Every single one can be inspected and tallied by hand if needed.
Whoever that somebody is--
may they live long and prosper.
In other words, hope the CIA doesn't catch up to you, whoever you are.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It would be seen as a coup by the Republican voters,
And without iron-clad proof that the election was rigged, I would agree.
Exactly, a coup
And the consequences of such would be dicey. I don't get how that can be overlooked and why they press on with these notions to overturn...seems a high potential to turn violent and ugly if they get their wish.
Even with iron-clad proof of such--
I'd be forced to ask: what about the rigging in the primary? What about the blatant voter purges, both off the rolls and out of the party? What about the tampering with people's voter registrations so they can't vote? What about the so-called "granny farming" (I hate that term) in caucus states? FSM, what about this?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Good insights into the psyops of the Russkie Kabuki
…and how it effects interested parties. The military , for example. This fantasy narrative is a set up for the potential psychic crisis you point out:
First off, the US military has never acted to protect and defend democracy in the US, because no one outside the US has ever cared about it or has lifted a finger to "attack" it. The "alleged" Russian interference in the 2016 elections is actually an escalation of the ubiquitous propaganda PR narratives pushed by most nations about themselves and their opposers. But in an historical first, the US Neocons have slammed Russia and the American People with a military-grade psyops operation — they accuse Russia of attacking (the apparently fragile and vulnerable) institution of US democracy and sabotaging the US election. (Should we conclude that our troops failed to protect America's democracy, utterly?)
The reality is, who would bother to mess with so-called US democracy, when the only choice is the lesser of the same two evils?
As long as the election holds firm, nobody has to think about that. As the author correctly notes.
The CIA and FBI are slugging it out for their two bosses. The CIA works for the Neocons (the Permanent Federal Government) and the FBI works for the Party Establishment and the temporary Elected Federal Government. The Neocons want war, so the CIA concocted this Russian nonsense attack. Conversely the Parties want Americans to believe with all their hearts in the illusion of perfection in all US elections , so their FBI says the CIA's got proof of nothing.
Hope the FBI wins this round of competitive Kabuki.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Indeed
To have this conflict of narrative pushed to the forefront of public discourse and outright calls for potential action is quite remarkable this last week or so. I wonder what course will unfold.
I think it's more like the CIA supports both the permanent
government and, at this moment, the Democrats--because the Democrats means the Clintons. And Clintons and Bushes=permanent government. The Bushes, rather than using the Republican party as their vehicle, have united with the Clintons and are using the Democratic party as their vehicle.
The FBI is with the Repubs and the temporary govt.
Great framing btw.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Right you are. The Neocons win either way.
There is generally a Neocon-compliant candidate on both sides of the Presidential ticket. That was uncertain after Trump won the nomination. But now that Trump has festooned his cabinet with Neocons, they have the run of the place. Unless Trump really is a strongman and he sticks to his vision of making money not war for America.
It's still over for the Clintons. She's damaged goods. All baggage and no advantage. The CIA doesn't want to exhume her to the Presidency. The Neocon deep state doesn't need Clinton, they can just use her "sabotaged defeat" to attack Russia.
(The American people will give the Neocons all the cover they need. The people will cry for revenge with the same subhuman bloodlust they displayed after 9/11. Shouting for blood from some mystery nation. Any nation Bush named would do.)
There must be punishment. Obama promised.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Democracy may indeed be overthrown...
At least at the top.
But as we see from history, all that does is peel off a layer of give a fuck.
Peasants will continue to live their lives, and simply figure out ways to no longer attract the attention of the royals.
After all, the royals can't really run every facet of our lives, no matter what they THINK they can do. Technology is not infallible as anyone who actually works with it knows.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
If they did this, and I don't believe they will
but I'm frequently wrong, it could well turn out to be Chris Hedge's Crisis, the spark that lights the fuse.
That's why I don't think they will try it, they are fully aware that they have the world dancing on the knife's edge.
At first, I wouldn't believe that they were doing what they were doing, but each year that goes by without even an attempt to steer us away from disaster has convinced me that this is indeed the game they're playing, and it will almost certainly fail.
I think they actually believe that they can clamp down on the first world as successfully as they've done it to the third.
I hear you
Most of the crushing done by U.S. enforcers (within and without) are typically against a marginalized group that is easy to paint as 'deserving' of whatever is meted out. What got me thinking about the military was actually the veterans that showed up at DAPL, and tactics had to change away from pummeling that had been going on. For reasons that I thought were relatively obvious...we can't be overtly beating down proclaimed heroes.
Just as you mention, "I don't think they will try it," in this case, because as I outlined, I foresee plenty of veterans having a WTF moment when 'we' start trashing our own 'democracy' that they have been told to suffer and die for all these years. The decision to portend this notion of overturning our own election seems very risky to raise the ire of this group that is very likely to consider intervening since they hold dear these notions of what 'this country stands for.'
Yet it is now hitting the headlines as an idea, floated out for consideration...stupid or crafty? Seems a little too close to that 'third rail'...how do they know whether a switch finally flips in too many heads?
Excellent Essay!
I too have been having these thoughts.
Now, I ask WHO exactly wants the Electoral College (EC) to overturn this election?
Privileged Straight White Christians.
Those of us in a minority know that if Trump's victory was overturned, his lunatic bigoted lunatics would be incited to violence.
And who would be the target of their violence? MINORITIES!
And which minority group throughout history has been accused of "Controlling the government", "Government controlled by bankers", etc. etc.
The Jewish people. We would be on the front lines of violence targeted against us. Antisemitism would be at an all time high in America should the EC overturn Trump's win. I want no part of that. I would rather have Trump as president than walk around with a target on my back for the next four years.
Sadly many on the left would just throw the Jewish people in America to the wolves, after all to many on the left we are just a people persecuting innocent rocket-firing, knife-wielding, stone-throwing terrorists (whom they call palestinians)
When I was a kid, Republicans used to red scare people, now it's the Democrats. I am getting too damn old for this crap!
Really?
Someone scared you. It is unlikely that Trump would be unthroned at this point.
Donald Trump got a standing ovation from AIPAC — and not just because they are thrilled that he promised the United States will move its embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem when he's president.
Hillary Clinton is unpopular in Israel, especially because of her policies during her time as Secretary of State are viewed as unfavorable toward Israel. Toward the end of the 2016 campaign, Jewish attitudes toward Donald Trump shifted.
The very first exit poll taken in the 2016 presidential election came from Israeli Americans. It was a big win for GOP nominee Donald Trump.
At the beginning of his campaign, Donald Trump formed an Israel Advisory Committee to keep him on track. Jewish Orthodox attorneys Jason Greenblatt and David Friedman were handpicked by Trump to serve as his Israel advisers.
During the Republican National Convention, Trump's team worked to get elements of the party platform restored that had been removed in 2012. In the end, the Republican Party platform had the strongest pro-Israel policies in its history — all of which was done with Donald Trump's full support.
I hope you need not be too concerned about revolt. The people who run this place don't want that.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Have you NOT seen his antisemitic followers?
THEY are scary.
They know that Trump likes Israel and has a Jewish daughter, but still many of his followers are the worst of the worst when it comes to antisemitism.
When I was a kid, Republicans used to red scare people, now it's the Democrats. I am getting too damn old for this crap!
Many of his followers are assholes, full stop
So are many of Her followers.
So are a lot of people who didn't vote.
It is what it is.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
enjoy the full stop message
seems to fit a bunch of stuff right now
You can see my response -here-
http://www.boomantribune.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2016/12/12/152122/53
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
I thought regime change was bad.
Government outlets such as the NYTimes are reporting that the CIA has no concrete evidence but rather a lot of circumstantial "evidence" on which to draw conclusions. Because they are intelligence professionals, we must in fact accept their conclusions as they are expert at creating certainty out of uncertainty.
Because of this, on the word of the CIA electors in states that Trump won, must cast their votes to Clinton. However one looks at it, however one dislikes our electoral system, Trump while losing the popular vote has won the system as set up by the Constitution and by traditions such as winner-take-all. People like Michael Moore, the CIA, Clinton campaign, her supporters are demanding what essentially would be regime change. Stein, who I voted for, while misguided, challenged the system legally with the bounds of current law.
And like all ideologues who advocate regime change in these ways, they do not see the consequences and the ensuing violence.
I dislike Trump with the best of them. But I also have seen what happened to societies that the US destabilized indirectly or with bombs.
Once this door is fully opened, then there is no coming back.
In some circles, the greatest danger
…is to introduce doubt into election outcomes. If Americans stop trusting the voting process or loose confidence in their democracy, chaos could ensue. That's why there is such strident emphasis on immediate concessions. It's a national security issue.
The ridiculous patchwork of the Federal election process is probably the weakest link and the most likely place where a crisis could blow, and that could expose the very real structural flaws in the government, which is rapidly becoming totalitarian. Breaking the US into autonomous regions is the only scale that can deliver truly democratic experience in the 21st century.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Evidence?
I think that's what is called 'a slam dunk', yes?
We've already had one fairly recent election
where a Court determined who would be President.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Yes we have. Essayist, what did the vets do about this?
A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.
100% of nada, as I recall
There was an insurrectionist fringe of the general public that did things like boo the Shrub in public and egg his car on the way to inauguration, but the media pretended nothing happened and everyone else agreed to believe them.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Exactly. Have been surprised st some use this as a reason for po
The move to get the electors to not seat Trum0.
A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.
The election was corrupted
The election was corrupted right from the Dem Primaries - an honest, independently overseen election should be conducted under circumstances where cheating has been made as close to impossible as is possible, and including Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein so that the voters have a right to to choose beyond the destructive self-interests selected by the corporate parties. But that would be the response of a democracy concerned with actual democracy being maintained, rather than eliminated.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Putin did it!
Putin has mastered Jedi mind control. Many believe he is actually a reincarnation of Yoda and is master of the Force.
"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? No. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is."
If you look closely at Putin, his small stature is not the only similarity. This also explains his massive popularity among those that encounter him. He will now be channeling America through his servant, Trump. There is no point in attempting to resist. The majority of Americans have become terribly weak minded from watching American television and twittering.
BTW, the fact that Hillary was so susceptible to the Jedi mind trick tells us a lot about her.