Open Thread - Thurs 05 May 2022 - End of the Roman Empire?
I haven't a lot to say this week about recent news and events. I think I'm becoming like the Jokerized Americans David Sirota writes about in this article at the Lever. Even the Roe disaster (see this good article at the Lever), for example, doesn't make me do more than go, 'wev' much of the time. We've been fighting this almost my whole life and will NEVER WIN BECAUSE THE DEMS DON'T WANT THAT, so I thought I'd relax and get all academic and delve into a bit of Roman stuff.
But first, a goatie pic, just because. This is Bushwhacker, he's about 2 weeks old in the pic. Yes, he's named after a famous rodeo bull. He's tough, tough! And he likes to run and buck and climb, like all the goaties do. He's about 10 inches tall in this pic; to his shoulder, he's about 6 inches tall. So he's huge, and tough! 
Now, the Romans: We often liken the current state of affairs in the USA to the 'Fall of the Roman Empire'. It's a decent comparison but... which Roman Empire? When?
If one thinks of Caesar, Augustus, Nero, Claudius, Vespasian, etc, in the last part of the 1st C BC and first-mid part of the 1st C AD then that's not the fall of the 'Roman Empire'. That's the CREATION of the Empire, and the fall of the Republic. The Empire would continue for 400+ years in the West, and, well, it depends, but if one thinks of the Eastern Empire (the Byzantine Empire), the fall would be in the Middle Ages, finishing when Constantinople (or Byzantium) was conquered in 1453 by the Turks. If one thinks of the Holy Roman Empire, the fall would be when Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated in 1914 and WWI started.
I think our current times most closely parallel the fall of the Republic in many ways. There's families and phalanxes of their friends manipulating politics (Bushes, Clintons, Obamas, Trumps == Caesar's family, Augustus's family, Vespasian's family), there's political movements that don't mean a lot to the regular people but are used to support the ideas and doings of the powerful and so on. The common people just go on with their lives no matter who is the leader; bread and circuses? Internet and TV? Great. The military is mixed into everything, and eventually, whoever is emperor HAS to have the support of the military leaders, either because he cowtows to them from the beginning, or because he's threatened by them and gives in. Rome moved, rather quickly, from a society in which leaders were elected (by the wealthy, of course, but there you go) to one where leaders were chosen by inheritance and/or by the military and rubberstamped by the Senate as 'Imperator'. Leaders generally had to have experience leading the army as a General. There were very, very few successful leaders chosen who had no military experience (Antoninus Pius, 'creator' of the Antonine Wall in Scotland, was one).
Behind the choosing and support of the leader(s) was the Praetorian Guard: a military guard meant to 'protect' the emperor and his family. Often times, either covertly or overtly, it was the leadership of the Guard who oversaw the choosing of a new emperor and the transition of the government to that new emperor. I think CIA/FBI, in a way, when I think of the Praetorians.
Anyway, I think that's where we're at. Our true government is run by the rich, the spies, the military, and so on. We the people have no real choice in this, if we ever did, without undertaking unrest and rebellion. We aren't at a point where outright military leaders are our presidents (emperors?), but the president is just a figurehead for the military and industrial/capitalist complexes, as the emperor was for the Roman military and economic complexes. The president isn't a lifetime position... yet, and it's not always inherited (hello Bushes)... and the president doesn't have to be a general... yet. But it'll come, it'll come. And we'll move into the actual Empire phase. Or maybe we won't. After all, Rome didn't have an enemy like Russia or China when its Republic fell and its Empire was created. Maybe that's a difference that'll change things. Who knows?
In the later falls of the various Roman Empires, invading enemies were important. Goths, Alans, Huns, Angles, Saxons, Visigoths... anyone? So maybe our possible 'fall' is more like that. I think before we actually 'fall' we are going to mutate into something different, and most of the common people won't know or care. It simply won't affect them that much. We might even get to a point, like the Romans did in the mid 1st C AD, where actual 'Romans', the citizens of Rome, never served in the Army. Only the rubes in the hinterlands and provinces served...
Here's something inspiring and hopeful. [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smGQUH5ldTA]
And Something Funny. GO Corb and Hayes! [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S00y75ebq8]
This one seems a bit... yea, Jokerish! Love the depiction of the TV mouthpieces. [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCnt-drXsiU]
So, thanks for reading and listening and here's the open thread - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough!
Comments
Good Day Everyone!
Hope things are going well for all of you. For me, they are going pretty darn good. Got a new mower (walk behind self-propelled electric mower) and it works great. I love it. No smell of fuel, not as loud as a gas or diesel mower, cuts just as great. It goes with my electric weed eater. I don't think we can get an electric tractor or rototiller yet, though...
We are going back into a period of rain again, so I think I'll be doing indoor stuff for the next few days!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I have an electric rototiller, have had it for ages.
I forget who made it - powerhead and down tube are one piece and then you can swap in your choice of a string trimmer or rototiller head. Currently, however, we never use the tiller anyway.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
How big is the tiller?
For the farm we use (used, haven't used it in a while) a Italian made 3 or 4 ft wide tiller. It could do a whole bed at once. It's about 20 years old. Is the electric tiller that big? That would rock!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
More like a foot or so. I'll try to remember to check.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Hi Sima,
As I think I mentioned before, I drove a tractor last season on a local organic farm. A big kabuto for discing, harrowing and general field prep and a medium offset farmall and a tiny Allis chalmers for cultivating. The latter two are probably from the late '40s/early50s.
The owner just told me they pre-ordered an electric tractor from Monarch tractor in California. So, if you didn't already know they are coming. And they look awesome, but we will see in the details. How fast to recharge/swap out batteries etc. Power/torque etc. looks good though. And..they say they are designing to use old and new implements *and* include software troubleshooting and right-to-repair (unlike Deere, don't get me started)...
It should (and could) have happened a long time ago. Here's hoping that our grandkids can farm without diesel!
Happy Thursday
Glad to hear your electrical tools are working out. Got a chuckle out of a neighboring town that has
outlawed the use of leaf blowers (lazy folk rakes) as being beyond the town noise ordinance. Not
sure if that covers the electric variety, but the 2 cycle gas models are like bumble bees on steroids.
My tiny one cylinder 4 cycle tiller is pretty quiet. The 2 cycle chainsaw, not so much. Have seen
Cub Cadet has come out with an electric ride-on mower. May consider that when the old gas
powered one gives up the ghost. Has been working good for over 20 years now (with a few repairs).
Enjoy the spring!
question everything
Electric Ride On Mower?
I'm all for it, all for it! Could get rid of the gas John Deere that we have, that always breaks. It's in the shop now, waiting in line for repairs. Then I'd use the electric mower for the 'detail' areas, like under the trees, etc.
Edited to Add: Our neighbors use a gas leaf blower. They are around 1/8 to 1/4 mile away, and it's so loud... so loud. So I can understand that town's ordinance!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning...
I think we are at end of empire. The funny thing about it is most in the USA don't even realize we are an empire with 800+ military bases around the world and 100's of bio(weapons)labs too. My hope is we don't have a temper tantrum in our demise and start throwing nukes around. They may call them tactical, but they are doomsday machines.
Funny you mention The Fall of the Roman Empire, I recently saw a documentary about it. Can't remember which one, and when I looked there are many and even movies.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fall+of+the+roman+empire
Cute goat. They are so much fun to watch when they are young. Hope all is well in the garden and around the homestead. I love my 40V battery powered weed eater. My better half has a gas riding mower, and I mainly bush hog with the tractor...in fact I'll use it today to trim the road side. Right now the fields are covered in the blue of Lyre Leafed Sage and yellows of Ragwort/Senicio, so no mowing for a few weeks till they seed out for next year.
The garden is doing well. More peppers to plant out this evening. We also plan to plant sweet potatoes this evening too. Rain due tonight and tomorrow. I try to time my planting with the rains. We can water, but plants like rain water the best.
So thanks for the OT, and everyone have a good day.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Brush Hog...
We have one for our farm tractor. That's what mows the fields. But we wait to mow until end May/beginning June for two reasons. 1. So the native plants can bloom and put on seed 2. so the fields dry up. We are in a very, very wet area. In fact the lower fields often can't be mowed until July or August. The grass grows 8 to 10 feet tall down there!
We planted our peppers into the hoop house yesterday. I'm so in awe of ya'll that can plant them outside!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Haha, well, that *is* an advantage of having grown up in Hawai‘i
in the 1950s — at least it was plain as the nose on your face that empire was real and we were a far-flung outpost of a distant one.
Of course, the American folks in charge of shaping culture and formal education tried their best to train us kids to ignore the obvious. The introduction of television, with its gradual transformation over a decade from technological curiosity and luxury into a mass-market medium mainlining the three major U.S. networks and their advertisers directly into our consciousness, was an unimaginably great boon to them.
“Statehood” was never about marginally giving us a bit more say over our own destiny, but rather was the signal to capital and the wealthy that it was now safe to invest big-time (buy up everything on behalf of owners oceans away, right out from under the “locals”!). It was the imperial imprimatur, a guarantee that we weren’t going to drift off and become like Cuba or someplace.
Most kids who hailed from the imperial “Mainland” walked among us only because their dad was “stationed” at one of the military bases… Some seemed to be always complaining. “Aww, this place is so rinky-dink they don’t even have [product, service, or form of entertainment common in North America].”
Actually, the Romans DID have a rival Empire
during the transformative period from Republic to Empire. The Parthian Empire not only managed to stand off the Romans and resist repeated attempts to invade and conquer, they also inflicted a defeat that took out one member of the First Triumvirate (Marcus Licinius Crassus, who was envious of Caesar's and Pompey's military records and wanted to buff up his own - instead he got killed and his army destroyed).
Neither Rome nor Parthia (nor the Parthians' Sassanid successors) was able to gain a permanent advantage over the other, and Rome's eastern expansion stalled.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Good Point..
My studies focus on the Western Empire, so I'm not that versed in the Parthian Empire stuff, or the Eastern Empire.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning Sima. Thanks for the OT and the mighty goat pic.
I can understand calling Sarajevo and WWI the end of the Holy Roman Empire, there was certainly finality there and the "empire" still existed as a formality. To me, it was already a doddering old geezer and then somebody stole his crutches. I see the terminal infirmities setting in with the defenestration, Bohemia-Moravia, Wallenstein, Jan Zizka and all that, plus the creation of the electors and the depredations of my favorite elector, Freddie der Grosse.
In other news, we have a pip, which is the first leetle hole that a birdlet makes in its egg in order to break free. This is, of course, the Cal Falcons who've had a terrible year and it is likely that the pip is in the only viable egg (out of 3). Still, one is something. The male who is responsible for the first 2 eggs, Grinnell, after surviving injuries from battling a competitor was found dead in the city streets from a probably vehicle strike. He was replaced by a somewhat gimpy newcomer who, despite his infirmity began bringing food and brooding the eggs and is responsible for egg number 3 (with the pip).
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Doddering Old Fool..
Sounds like our President now. So damned sad, and infuriating.
I learned about the Holy Roman Empire's 'end' from a professor in Grad School. He taught medieval Latin, and it was kind of a joke about the end of the Empire but... it is also true. The name and 'spirit' of the Empire lived on until then.
I'm hoping the pip lives and grows and prospers. A few days ago I was in my car, waiting for a light to change at the top of gentle rise on the road going into my little town. It's about 100 ft or so above sea level there. I was facing the Sound, looking down into town and the little tiny port and ferry terminal. Suddenly, I saw this bird laboriously flying towards me. Straight towards me, about 4 to 6 ft above the roof of my little Honda Civic. It was a hawk, and it had, for it, a HUGE fish in its mouth. The fish was like 6 to 8 inches long! The light turned green, But I just stayed where I was, so that the cars behind me would slow and stop. We all ended up waiting, sort of saluting, as that hawk made its way to its next.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
In the late 50s in NYC
new to town I found the early isues of NYRB. In one essay someone said that it felt to them as it must have during the fall of the Roman Empire. How can that be? I thought, and checked out the book from the library. From my $65/month apartment that perspective seemed too far out then.
More than the politics I now recall how productive fields were destoyued by being salted, and hope that those irreplaceable lands in Ukraine will survive.
I'm now going to begin counting the people I see carrying/rolling along infants and young children, as calmly and happily as at a mall.
The goat is wonderful.
I wonder what the Romans felt..
I don't think the little people in the Empire cared that much, if at all. One ruler is the same as the other, whatever their name or affiliation. Of course, if there were a reason to kill the little people, and not keep them to work the fields and such, that might change. In the western Empire things had become very regional when/as it fell. That is natural. I have more loyalty to my home state than I do to, say, Alabama. It's regional. The armies in the Empire became regional too, except for the lower upper classes and such which followed the Emperor from battle to battle on their cavalry.
I hope to get some video of the goats playing posted soon. To cheer us up and give us a laugh :).
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Late to the party, Sima.
Somehow, I skipped from Nero to Constantine, missed Parthius. I did see the very place Constantine went Christian, the very place the Hapsburg's gave it up.
I am on vacation in Colorado. Your goat made my heart melt. My family was asked to leave a rent home when I was 4, because my parents were housing and feeding a rescue baby goat inside an add on that hadn't been used in years.
Meanwhile, I gather up all food dinner leftovers, even from my motel neighbors, put it on a plate, put it in the only garbage bin in the place, and every night, a raccoon comes, crawls up a decorative column, knocks off the lid, dives in, looking for food. His right front foot has no paw. He is a happy raccoon this week.
Thanks for your always interesting contributions to the OTs.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Nero to Constantine...
If you are in the former eastern Empire area, it can be easy to do :). Heck, Britannia wasn't even a province during Nero's time. Romans weren't there yet. I traveled the eastern Empire area, Greece, Turkey, Egypt once in the late 70's. I think it's changed some since then, but the Greek, Roman and Egyptian remains were something else again. Climbing to the top of a pyramid, inside it, was nuts.
Sounds like a good vacation in Colorado, and feeding a disabled raccoon is the thing to do! Baby goat in an old addon? Sounds ok to me, I wouldn't have made you move. Goats can tame up just like dogs in many ways, including being house trained.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
never got to Egypt.
Always thought it through, thought it too dangerous.I am a little bit jealous.
But, I have seen pyramids in central and South America. That will do for now.
Take good care, chica!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Egypt was...
different. I would not go back, to tell the truth. I was on a guided tour with college age students (I was going to be a sophomore in high school). We had a lot of companions and supervision from teachers and so on and still... it was dangerous. I liked the pyramids and the sphinx and the museums, though.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so