Open Thread 2 JAN 18 -- Where lies Truth?


Hey all! Fun finding you here. Today we have a very special guest appearance of a seldom seen phenomena once known as the truth. His buddies justice and equality were going to drop in as well, but they have some gig going on elsewhere. The author has made a continuing resolution about
focusing on less than 5 things at a time, so will try not to confuse. Well.. see how it goes:

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Originally had set up this Open Thread for discussing workers' ownership of our places of business, such as co-ops, group owned means of production and the like. Two other essayists have posted many interesting links to this subject in the last few days, so I will have to postpone that until I have some time to refine that subject further.

Negroes in the United States read the history of labour and find it mirrors their own experience. We are confronted by powerful forces telling us to rely on the good will and understanding of those who profit by exploiting us [...] They are shocked that action organizations, sit-ins, civil disobedience and protests are becoming our everyday tools, just as strikes, demonstrations and union organization became yours to insure that bargaining power genuinely existed on both sides of the table [...] Our needs are identical to labor's needs: decent wages, fair working conditions, livable housing, old age security, health and welfare measures [...] That is why the labor-hater and labor-baiter is virtually always a twin-headed creature spewing anti-Negro epithets from one mouth and anti-labor propaganda from the other mouth.

— Martin Luther King, Jr, "If the Negro Wins, Labor Wins", December 11, 1961

Ain't it the truth? There have been several great thinkers who entertained the truth thru inspired oratory and well considered written passages. Some contemporary examples would be Chomsky. Zinn, Hedges, Klein, and McKibben. I have been reading each of their works lately, so the idea of speaking truth to power has grown in importance, to my thinking.

It is most unfortunate that our news reporting agencies have lost the art of fact gathering. The stories being told to the US population has been tainted with an agenda with little regard for the truth. And the education propaganda being taught our young is being explained as factual, but it works out to be mostly a white washing.

We as a people still do have access to the the facts of American history and current events, but it requires digging thru many layers of untruths coupled with independent thinking and sound reasoning. Once the truth of our culture emerges, it is evident why the truth is not advertised. The US has done, and continues to pursue many morally bankrupt adventures under dishonest justifications.

“In a society in which nearly everybody is dominated by somebody else's mind or by a disembodied mind, it becomes increasingly difficult to learn the truth about the activities of governments and corporations, about the quality or value of products, or about the health of one's own place and economy.
Wendell Berry

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The quest of finding moral and intellectual honesty can be a lonely task. Discovery of truisms or at least getting closer to them is a good reason to explore this C99% forum. Feel free to express your ideas and opinions in this thread, regardless of subject. Share whatever truth's you find!

Peace

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Unauthorized use of power to harm the interests of the governed.

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Meteor Man's picture

@QMS
Wow! Great topic. I recall a political science book I read with the above title. Lots of Bing hits so I'll just add a wiki entry:

In political philosophy, the phrase consent of the governed refers to the idea that a government's legitimacy and moral right to use state power is only justified and lawful when consented to by the people or society over which that political power is exercised. This theory of consent is historically contrasted to the divine right of kings and had often been invoked against the legitimacy of colonialism. Article 21 of the United Nation's 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_of_the_governed

The entire concept has been completely abandoned by our American political elites.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

@Meteor Man

The entire concept has been completely abandoned by our American elite.

I keep thinking... not in my name are these decisions being made...

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Meteor Man's picture

@QMS
In point of fact, if we could set up a system for the national referrendom voting being discussed below, there is no doubt that Congress and POTUS have not represented the will of the people or the Commonwealth for decades.

A case can be made that the reform legislation of FDR and LBJ were the only times in the last 100 years that the will of the people was incorporated into law. Oh yeah, Nixon signed the Clean Air and Clean Water Act.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

WaterLily's picture

@QMS The question is, how?

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@WaterLily by a majority of registered voters to prevent laws being passed without majority consent?

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says MLK. Funny how the Libertarian types think they'll never get old. We're so smart, we don't need no stinkn' old age security. We'll never get sick, never get weak, never have a setback, never become infirm, never ever need help from anyone. On top of that, we will never get old.

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@randtntx as a people to be a productively civil society.

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@QMS I think so as well. My question is; are there enough people around who believe in the concept of a civil society? Many seem to be convinced that they are completely independent and don't need a civil society.

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@randtntx I haven't a clue what the majority opinion is on that issue. I think most sensible folks understand the need to work together for social improvement. If we had a simple, unbiased and honest way of weighing in on matters of import, yes or no; one vote per address tabulated at the end of the day or week; do you think people would be more informed or engaged?

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@QMS It doesn't seem like we have a culture that encourages engagement and participation. That is one of the big problems. Perhaps the young people will be different and reject the status quo.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@randtntx

My question is; are there enough people around who believe in the concept of a civil society? Many seem to be convinced that they are completely independent and don't need a civil society.

"There is no such thing as 'society'."
-- Margaret "Maggot" Thatcher

And anyone who's convinced (s)he's possessed of this degree of independence is either waaaay too rich, has his/her head securely inserted into his/her rectal cavity, or both.

Off-gridders in Alaska are an example. Alaskan off-gridding is essentially a playground for the rich. Let Alaska start charging State-wide property taxes, regulating sub-commercial hunting and fishing, and operating railroads the ways in which these things are done in all 49 of the other States, and you'll see the off-gridder become a seriously endangered species fast!

Diablo

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

@thanatokephaloides @thanatokephaloides Good old Maggot. Unfortunately, she and those like her have been successful in promoting individualism at the expense of community. Society offered no objections.

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Lookout's picture

Anonymous put out a warning about the addiction this week using the words of facebook founders. Along with TV - a great brainwashing tool...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39RS3XbT2pU (15 min)
"We want to be liked by 16 million people"
"It is easy to confuse truth and popularity"
"We pay to manipulate peoples thoughts"
"Dopamine driven social media is eroding the social fabric"
"Today you can get large swaths of people to do anything you want"

After watching, I better understood mimi's dislike/fear of the intertubes. (If you're out there mimi you would enjoy this clip.)

I hope you are all warm and snug in your respective worlds. It was about 12 degrees this AM here in the deep South.

thanks for the OT, QMS.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout gave up the papers, radio news, don't twitter or facebook. We do read a lot of books and are very selective of internet sites. Less 'misinformation' to deflect. How lies Truth.

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A suggestion on how to define democracy

In order to hold a political poisition, either elected or appointed,

office holder is required to vote with the majority of constituents.

Officials are required to poll all registered voters with accounable ballots.

Issues to be decided must be explained in plain english and truthful.

Referendums must be limited to specific issues without unrelated considerations.

A reasonable amount time must be given the voters to decide the issue.

Once the ballots are tallied and verified, the representative must vote with the majority opinion.

Issues which require consesnus must be voted on when 20 % of local population, or 20 % of regional electors, or 20% of national voters provide a legal referendum with valid signatures to all representatives involved.

Legislation must be ennacted in a reasonably short time and must be binding until newer legislation supercedes earlier decisions.

Petitions changing existing laws must be specific and understandable in laymans terms.

The complicated existing or pending laws must be re-written so as to be understandable.

Singular issues only are to be voted on.

Existing laws must be broken down to their individual elements, which must be voted on idividually.

Expenditures and budgets must also be brojken down to reflect true individual costs if each item.

Proposals submitted by special interest groups and lobbyists must be available for the majority of the voters affected to understand before informing their representative of majority opinion by ballot.

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mhagle's picture

@QMS

Love your definition of democracy!

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

@QMS
but all the decisions of that officer must be ratified at a biweekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but a 2/3s majority in the case of ...

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Arrow's picture

Just peeking in for a few.
Well...what can I say? But...
Ain't it the truth!
Ain't it the truth!

Have a great day all!

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I want a Pony!

mhagle's picture

My favorite teacher on this subject is Adyashanti. If you don't know anything about him, he is just a regular kind of a guy who ended up in the spiritual teaching business. He advocates looking at everyday situations and converations and asking yourself "is this really true?" Religious beliefs are not truth. Opinions are not truth. Truth is more pure than those. What is true for me may not be true for you. In this context truth is not synonomous with fact. It is more pure. I guess because of the extistance of twisted facts.

On another note, retired Teachers in Texas between the ages of (I think) 55-64 and their dependants as of yesterday are now offically fucked. Health insurance has a $3000 deductible with no co-pays. My husband turns 65 in March, but it will still affect our kids, especially the one who is on 3 meds with regular doctor visits. Next time my husband buys insulin it will cost $1700.

Republican controlled legislature must be proud of fucking my family.

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

@mhagle did your representative ask for your opinion? If not, that seems like a non-democratic form of representation.

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mhagle's picture

@QMS

This will certainly make some folks wake up. My better half had a bit of a shock when he went to pick up a prescription yesterday and it was $266 instead of $30. He turned around and came home, but we have to somehow go and get it today.

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

@mhagle that must hurt.

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mhagle's picture

@QMS

Somehow we just have to bite the bullet and pay out that $3000. Then insurance covers 80%. Fortunately I switched from silver to bronze on the ACA this year which saves us about $3000 in premiums a year. So, we will be OK I think. And I will check out Gramma's pharmacy site.

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

Granma's picture

@mhagle pharmacy checker.com is the site. You can price needed medications at the site and compare price at dozens of verified online pharmacies. Have a look. I've been using one successfully.

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mhagle's picture

@Granma

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

ggersh's picture

@mhagle they have a stupid law that requires you to ask
your pharmacist if they can give it to you cheaper than
stated price, pharma won't let them voluntarily give out
that info.....and they usually are cheaper by a big amount.

Not sure if that's the case where you're at but worth an ask.

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I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

mhagle's picture

@ggersh

Thank you!

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

thanatokephaloides's picture

@mhagle

My favorite teacher on this subject is Adyashanti. If you don't know anything about him, he is just a regular kind of a guy who ended up in the spiritual teaching business. He advocates looking at everyday situations and converations and asking yourself "is this really true?" Religious beliefs are not truth. Opinions are not truth. Truth is more pure than those. What is true for me may not be true for you. In this context truth is not synonomous with fact. It is more pure. I

Adyashanti deserves credit for tackling Pontius Pilate's laconic question "What is truth?", at the very least!

Howbeit, I do maintain that fact is the purest level, and therefore synonymous with truth!

Wink

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

mhagle's picture

@thanatokephaloides

They should be synonymous (spelled correctly this time). It gets messy when what is called a fact is not fact and what is called truth is not truth.

Hmmmm . . . . I know I am not explaining it well.

Speaking in general . . . you are trying to make a decision for yourself. Another person lists a bunch of facts regarding this decision. Then you say to yourself, "is this true for me?" The answer may be no."

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

Granma's picture

@mhagle I found a site that checks out Canadian pharmacies, can't think of word I want, but rates them for accuracy, safety, customer satisfaction and some other criteria. I've intended to write about it here. I'll hunt up the link today.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@mhagle

On another note, retired Teachers in Texas between the ages of (I think) 55-64 and their dependants as of yesterday are now offically fucked. Health insurance has a $3000 deductible with no co-pays. My husband turns 65 in March, but it will still affect our kids, especially the one who is on 3 meds with regular doctor visits. Next time my husband buys insulin it will cost $1700.

You and he might want to check Blink Health out. It's a prescription discount program which acts similarly to insurance. You pay Blink a reduced price for the prescription and then Blink pays the pharmacy.

I'd be hosed without them.

Worth looking into, anyway........

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

mhagle's picture

@thanatokephaloides

Wow. Cool. Another option. Fabulous!

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

thanatokephaloides's picture

@mhagle

Thank you! Wow. Cool. Another option. Fabulous!

Any time! Smile

It's the c99 way: we try to have each others' backs. Even if we don't know for a certainty, we suggest it anyway!

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

/ducks

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal is that a mulligan?

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enhydra lutris's picture

democracy in the form of representative democracy, and direct democracy is potentially too cumbersome when dealing with large populations. One thing that has been argued against democracy from time immemorial is the fear of a "tyranny of the majority". Subsumed within that is the never explicit fear of wrong-headed majoritarian action driven by fear, emotion, ignorance and the like.

You added major caveats with respect to ensuring simplicity, understandability, honesty and truth in the presentation of potential rules and initiatives, and that is critical, though manipulative propagandists will wrangle over contents from that perspective. One test would be whether persons from all segments of society agree as to the meaning, intent and intended effects and purpose of any such proposals. Making that determination would slow and complicate the process, but probably more in certain areas than others. The tricky ones should take longer, one shouldn't rush decisions with great impacts.

In addition to all that, I would suggest that there does need to be something akin to a bill of rights, setting up things that are simply off limits to regulation and legislation. Beyond that, I would like to suggest that there be carefully considered and crafted set-asides restricting legislation in certain subject areas to those not involving any unproven assumptions derived from dogma, ideology, religion and the like. For example, we have a lot of empirical evidence as to the harm caused by monopolies and oligopolies, and no evidence of any offsetting moderating force provided by any invisible hand. Tampering with economic behavior and interactions should, accodringly, be restricted to protecting the relatively powerless and restraining the relatively powerful. How to come up with those caveats will be a major problem, especially because of interference from the powerful and wannabe powerful. One cannot, for example, outlaw libertarian ideologies and viewpoints, but one can try to find ways to restrict application of such to create a world based upon social darwinism.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Lookout's picture

@enhydra lutris

I've been wondering about direct democracy. We can keep track of everyone's bank account to the penny with ATM's ...couldn't we do the same with votes. At least we could have a vote on war, taxes, and other important issues. My problem is the thought of what people where I live might vote for...the tyranny of democracy indeed. Do you think most Alabama citizens support civil and voting rights...even today? I'm not sure....most people in my county (that voted) opted for Moore.

Seems democracy just can't properly exist in any form without an EDUCATED public. Instead we have a corporate brainwashed public.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout the technology is there, no doubt. The chief concern is the way the ad men hi-jack information to turn a buck. How to insulate true reckoning from the spin and hype is a challenge. Trust is very low, seemingly purposely formulated. I can not see how a majority of the US citizens would vote to mortgage our future for more war. The trick is to prove it somehow.

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enhydra lutris's picture

@Lookout
empiricism/epistemology, and an introduction to semantics early on, along with reading "the hidden persuaders" for insight into the manipulation that's been going on for so many decades now. Over the short term, maybe some of the same too.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

WaterLily's picture

We don't need no thought control.

(Quick post before I go back to read the comments. Pink Floyd seemed relevant to the thread. Thanks for the thought-provoking OT!)

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smallaxe's picture

Let us not forget that quite recently Bernie Sanders went out on the national campaign trail and spoke economic truth to the nation. His genuineness & lack of spin generated excitement amongst our citizenry that was unrivaled even by those wanting to see a tv personality/reality star for free.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@smallaxe

Let us not forget that quite recently Bernie Sanders went out on the national campaign trail and spoke economic truth to the nation.

Would that he spoke better foreign policy truth (real peace and non-intervention)!

He'd very likely be President today. (Or dead..... )

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides