Meanwhile no climate change debate for those Democrats

https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/08/22/climate-debate-democratic-nationa...

SAN FRANCISCO — A Democratic National Committee meeting erupted into a bitter battle Thursday morning over the question of holding a climate-specific presidential debate, with party officials stamping down a resolution calling for a such an event in the face of raucous opposition from activists.

Meanwhile....

https://readsludge.com/2019/08/23/the-dnc-is-taking-thousands-from-fossi...

Since January, the DNC has taken at least $60,750 from owners and executives of fossil fuel companies.

It helps to recognize who you're dealing with. At least, I guess, climate change is safely in the future. Yes?

Meanwhile....

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/21/americas/amazon-rainforest-fire-intl-hnk-...

(CNN)Fires are raging at a record rate in Brazil's Amazon rainforest, and scientists warn that it could strike a devastating blow to the fight against climate change.

When we say "the stupid, it burns," can we say that it's this stupid that's burning?

Also:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottsnowden/2019/08/16/greenlands-massive-...

Greenland's Massive Ice Melt Wasn't Supposed To Happen Until 2070

So they interviewed this scientist who said:

"We're seeing changes in Greenland that – when you look at the climate models – are not forecast for, in many cases, for many years to come. We understand why in some cases – we understand that the models don't always capture some phenomena like clouds that are very important in the amount of energy that reaches the ice and therefore the amount of ice melt. There are things that the models don't do necessarily as well as we would like and so we understand that behavior and we understand why some quantum models are actually under-predicting, and I should say likely under-predicting the mass loss going forward," Mote says.

Gosh golly why are our models under-predicting? My hand shoots up! I know!

Actually, we've known about this for at least five years now. Here's the link:

https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/full/10.1175/BAMS-D-13-00115.1

Awareness of Both Type 1 and 2 Errors in Climate Science and Assessment

Let's be clear about it: the people writing the reports are being pressured by deniers to underestimate the severity of climate change. Chris Mooney ionterpreted those findings for us back then:

According to a number of scientific critics, the scientific consensus represented by the IPCC is a very conservative consensus. IPCC's reports, they say, often underestimate the severity of global warming, in a way that may actually confuse policymakers (or worse). The IPCC, one scientific group charged last year, has a tendency to "err on the side of least drama." And now, in a new study just out in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, another group of researchers echoes that point.

So if you read a lot of stuff telling us "we're doomed," maybe that's because it's the filp side of "we're denying." Planet Earth is being wiped out by capitalism, oil capitalism but also meat capitalism. It's not happening in 2070, or 2050, or 2030. It's happening NOW. What's the deal? Take the money and hope against hope that they'll have something to spend it on, upon a planet where they can spend it?

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Comments

The Republican Party has looted our luggage and plans to pack our valuables into their personal helicopters, which are perched atop the FirstClass cars...
The Democrat Party is tempting us with the hope that they'll form a committee to discuss the possibility of providing food & warmth to the millions of people starving & dying in the ThirdClass cars...

And every day, another SecondClass car gets downgraded to ThirdClass,
and almost none of our "leaders" are suggesting that we should even slow the train, let alone stop and disembark.
ONWARD TOGETHER!

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18 users have voted.

@Richard Steele

of the passengers in first class.

Obama okayed Tarp II. And, during his administration, wealth traveled upward to the wealthiest at the fastest rate in human history.

Also, between Shrub's temporary tax cuts and Trump's permanent tax cuts were Obama's 2010 permanent tax cuts.

Obama also took several stabs at social security and Medicare "entitlements," but was less competent at it than Clinton, who ended "welfare as we know it." (Obama failed with the Cat Food Commission, the Grand Bargain Committee and putting Medicare and Social Security "on the table" during negotiations with Boehner and Cantor. Obama did manage to cut fuel subsidies to the poor--in the very first budget that he sent to Congress! He also made several cuts to SNAP, as wellthan.

And, of course, thanks to the bright idea of Obama's economic team, the Grand Bargain Committee defaulted to the Sequester, which was supposed to hurt the left by cutting "entitlements" and the right by cutting the military budget.

Raise your hand if you think the military budget got cut.

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21 users have voted.

@HenryAWallace @HenryAWallace Yes, I know... I was in the middle of cooking supper for my parents, and didn't have time to fully extend my little allegory to cover that aspect of the situation.

I was gonna include something about how the residents of the FirstClass cars keep a bunch of different hats to wear for their occasional appearances in SecondClass, and all us SecondClass passengers are conditioned to cheer or boo certain hats as they pass down the aisle... and "Dems and Repubs" are just logos on the hats. Something like that.

But I ran out out of time. Those carrots weren't gonna sear themselves!

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10 users have voted.

@Richard Steele

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4 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@UntimelyRippd Thank you! One of my favorite songs (that I haven't listened to in awhile). Tull was an amazing group, one that is greatly unappreciated today. I've learned to appreciate them more as I've grown older.

Ok, now I'm off to find my ear buds and crank that link to eleven!

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4 users have voted.
Wally's picture

Video at:
https://twitter.com/sunrisebayarea/status/1164601805398929409

I hope we learn all the names of those on the DNC Resolutions Committee who voted NO besides Symone S. And their corporate ties and the candidates they support.

From most reasonable accounts, they voted no to make sure Biden didn't get cornered into a position where he'd have to take on fossil fuel interests, corporate agriculture, etc. which would not only make Biden look bad but also lose the DNC donors./

Also an excellent summary of Bernie's new Climate Change Plan:

https://theintercept.com/2019/08/22/bernie-sanders-climate-policy/

IF YOU TRIED to design a program with the aim of offending the top brass of the world’s most powerful corporations and the politicians whose careers they bankroll, you’d get something like what Bernie Sanders unveiled today in his $16.3 trillion Green New Deal platform. That’s part of the point. “We need a president who has the courage, the vision, and the record to face down the greed of fossil fuel executives and the billionaire class who stand in the way of climate action,” the plan’s opening salvo states, going on to echo a famous line from Franklin Delano Roosevelt. “We need a president who welcomes their hatred.

--Kate Aronoff
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13 users have voted.
snoopydawg's picture

@Wally

during the debate. Saying that if they did a special debate on climate change would mean that there would need a special debate for everyone's pet project is a cop out. Unless they do one for the homeless problem climate change is the biggest issue that people want to hear plans for. Cop out!

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11 users have voted.

America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

Shahryar's picture

@snoopydawg

as in, like, pork?

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9 users have voted.

What the hell are they going to say about their great accomplishments on that issue? That Obama cynically touted the TPP by pointing to climate change provisions that no one would have enforced?

Besides Sanders, what the hell are any of them going to say about their future plans on the issue that will not scare their big donors and be a lie anyway? (Tulsi allegedly being ineligible to participate, I assume.) And they hate Sanders.

Besides, who has been pushing action on climate change for decades? It's starts with a G and it has two ee's and it ends with n. Yes, Greens, right here in River City. Greens, whom Democrats obviously hate more than they hate their accomplices and faux foes, the Republicans. (I've read more whining on Democratic boards about Ralph Nader in the past half dozen years or so than I've read about Shrub and Jeb. And I've yet to see Hillary hug Nader or the Obamas yukking it up with him at funeral services.)

And, as you know well, Howard Hawkins, the very guy who invented the term Green Deal that Democrats appropriated without giving him credit, is even currently seeking the Green Presidential nomination.

Better just to skip a climate change debate and point out that Trump calls it a hoax. Because it's less evil to admit it exists and do precious little about its acceleration that is effective.

After all, lip service is better than nothing, amirite? Oh, wait: Lip service IS nothing.

never mind.

(too lazy this evening to dig up an Emily Litella pic)

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17 users have voted.

@HenryAWallace @HenryAWallace While nowhere near as comprehensive in her attention to this issue, we should remember that Tulsi sponsored a few relevant bills, including the Off Fossil Fuels for a Better Future Act in 2017. Yet neither her nor Inslee are invited to participate in the "climate change town hall".

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5 users have voted.
QMS's picture

If there was ever a doubt the dems and pubs are in cahoots, this proves it. The bundled bastids won't even mention the climate disaster on our door step. So as not to upset their energy sector masters. Which definitely proves the theory as to whom the policy slaves serve. If it's not in the interest of the wealthy power mongers, it doesn't get advertised. Like war is good for the economy! Extraction is good for jobs! Studies and committees are good for the environment!

They're killing us.

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20 users have voted.

Listen to your higher mind.

Shahryar's picture

@QMS

I believe one argument in favor of DAPL was that stopping it would cost 90 or so jobs. That it wasn't fair to the "workers" to protect the water.

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11 users have voted.
Eagles92's picture

@Shahryar The flip side of it, which I also recall hearing a lot, was that it would "create" jobs.

Of course they never mentioned that all of the jobs would be temporary, save for about 50.

I want to say something about 50 million dying as a result of those 50 jobs but I'm too angry to come up with anything smart.

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11 users have voted.

climate deniers. One individual, on a thread discussing Bernie's New Green Deal proposal,
posted that 'the chicken littles have become tiresome'
Wow

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17 users have voted.
QMS's picture

@munbeam666
for real, man.

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9 users have voted.

Listen to your higher mind.

"Tourists will be viewing Miami in glass bottomed boats." lol omg wtf. Never ever thought I'd live to see the overshoot overshooting the overshoot models already. huh

For FIFTY SIXTY YEARS scientists have known about global warming. This exerpt is from the well known educational documentary "Unchained Goddess" produced by Frank Capra for Bell Labs for their television program "The Bell Telephone Hour." It was so well made, that it went on to live a continued life in middle school science classrooms across the nation for decades. Nearly half a century before Al Gore's "Inconvenient Truth," this film was made. But what does it reveal? That our scientists have known for over two generations about this danger, but our politicians and citizenry have chosen to ignore the dangerous implications of this fact until it really is too late to avoid the preventable consequences. Perhaps we deserve our fate.

Remember The Population Bomb book by Paul Ehrlich? That was when my hair caught fire about the environment, about the doubling math and all those unfortunate facts. And I still voted D for decades! lol never forget

One year during Obama's second reign of terror, the Dept. of Labor showed Industrial Psychologist as the fastest growing career in the u.s.. Why do think that happened? huh

Seriously, if TPB book had come true, we'd all be dead already. Instead, it slowed the inevitable enough so us frogs wouldn't jump out so fast. oh well Green New Deal!

Perhaps we deserve our fate.

perhaps not

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13 users have voted.

It would be centered on grid-based solutions. I think the future is decentralization; get rid of the grid! We should focus on wind, solar, etc, generators in-home. Noone is talking about this. This should be our future...

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8 users have voted.

@p cook No one is talking about Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors which is a much better alternative to very low energy dense intermittent sources of energy. Nuclear is a million times as energy dense as fossil fuels, which are orders of magnitude more energy dense than renewables.

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4 users have voted.

@davidgmillsatty I don't know what else to say.

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7 users have voted.
QMS's picture

@davidgmillsatty
May be an argument for urban populations. Where density is the state of existence. Higher capacity energy sources will encourage more energy consumption. The gerbil wheel continues to spin faster. We need to slow down, IMO. And the grid is already unstable, subject to controlling issues. And storms. Delivery issues in my town are nowhere near the solution phase. Utilities are blaming the trees, bugs, wind, motorists and nature in general. In other words, it's out of control.

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9 users have voted.

Listen to your higher mind.

@QMS Actually LFTRs can be quite small. See my post below. Alligator Ed asked me to write about it and I told him I would if he opened. My post is second:

https://caucus99percent.com/content/power-power

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4 users have voted.
QMS's picture

@davidgmillsatty
Yours is a very informed study. While (like you) I would like to see a smaller and less toxic alternative to carbon and nuclear power generation, I wonder how and who is going to underwrite the costs of start-up.

For the sake of argument, let's say a public utility is looking to reduce cost, improve capacity and invest in this or other technologies. Our utility is already in contract with area sources. Here, it is a mix of hydro, natural gas, wind, methane, solar and whatever else come down the line. They are not in the business of generation, primarily distribution. For that we pay a premium, as there is no other option.

What incentive does the utility have to develop and implement a new source? Whether they invest in LFTR, solar, tidal, wind or whatever -- it is a financial adventure paid for by the consumers. Unfortunately, even public utilities make back room decisions based on ROI, kickbacks and shady business plans. The regulators are in bed with the industry. They are looking for profits above sensible generation. It is the capitalist system.

Do public monies finance new tech? If so, who is responsible to force the utility to grow new sources? Do the regulators decide what is better for the environment or the consumers? Or are they constrained by the conglomerates that already hold the cards? You can see where this goes.

Unless some form of community interest is added to the equation, sensible and/or earth friendly alternatives are unavailable. Therefore, p cook's points are valid. Decentralization makes more sense.

Whew

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8 users have voted.

Listen to your higher mind.

@QMS Decentralization is necessary. I think big cities are an awful idea. To put it bluntly, it puts everybody's shit in the same spot. Spread out, nature is capable of cleaning up a lot of our mess. But it can't do it when we concentrate it. Big cities promote centralization.

The ability to decentralize is another reason why I like LFTRs. Consider this, how many people live on a nuclear submarine? 100? We can make small modular reactors. We have been making small modular reactors for submarines and ships a long time. And the great thing about LFTRs is that they do not need to be near a water source. Water cooled reactors need to be near a water source. So they have the capacity to spread us out even more.

LFTRs have the ability to decentralize things. And if you can make them on an assembly line, you can really get the costs down making decentralization even more possible.

As for how they are going to get financed, I still think they will not be done here because the government won't step in and front the R and D costs and we have regulatory issues. I explained a lot of these problems in more detail in the comments to my previous post on the subject.

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lotlizard's picture

@davidgmillsatty  
https://www.theautomaticearth.com/2019/07/nuclear-energy-the-ultimate-hu...

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10 users have voted.

@lotlizard Primarily because traditional nuclear power has done two things that make it extremely expensive: (1) use water as a coolant which means it has to be pressurized to about 75 atmospheres or more and (2) they are not built on an assembly line. LFTRs use molten salt as a coolant which means they can operate at normal atmospheric pressure and they can be built on an assembly line which means they can actually make electricity cheaper than coal.

Alligator Ed asked me to write a post about it and I told him I would if he opened. My post is second: https://caucus99percent.com/content/power-power

How time flies. It is nearly two years old. Perhaps I should repost it someday.

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6 users have voted.
lotlizard's picture

@davidgmillsatty  
Make enough converts on Wall Street, at Davos, and among the Bilderberg set, and it could happen.

Just need to convince a critical mass, which could be a quite small number, among the usual billionaire suspects.

Make a few key converts in Hollywood and Silicon Valley.

Convince Trump & Co. there’s jobs for Rust Belt Americans to be had and money to be made.

Convince the sold-out Congresscritters on Capitol Hill that it’s good for Israel.

Get a big PR firm like Hill and Knowlton and some show biz talent reps like Creative Artists Agency on the case. Find a school-age spokesperson like Greta Thunberg.

Things don’t happen in America because of the merits. They happen when enough of the Deep State manipulation machinery and sleazeball media elite have been mobilized.

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6 users have voted.

@lotlizard

"Convince the sold-out Congresscritters on Capitol Hill that it’s good for Israel."

Now that is business model that would work. Plus it immediately gets the international bankers involved. And there is already major Jewish involvement with it. Vigner thought of the idea and Weinberg was the project director at Oak Ridge.

Israel is hurting for water and LFTRs are great at desalination. And it is not like we don't have to worry about Israel getting the bomb.

Might even get Bernie on board to secretly sell out the new Green Deal and ironically make the new Green Deal actually work. He's been wanting to bring back assembly line work anyway.

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4 users have voted.
Hawkfish's picture

@lotlizard

Which is Bill Gates’ nuclear startup. They are building a “traveling wave” reactor that is modular and runs on unrefined (“depleted”) U-238. They are still some years out but it is another interesting Gen- IV design.

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1 user has voted.

We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

lotlizard's picture

@davidgmillsatty  
You know what, who needs any kind of regulatory approval?

Uber and Lyft just started operating without asking city taxi industry regulators for permission, right?

Amazon got big in the early days by undercutting brick-and-mortar bookstores and not charging state sales tax, with an attitude of “Try and stop me,” right?

What’s that motto libertarians tell young people founding businesses now? “Ask for forgiveness, not permission”?

Whether you’re talking about electric scooters or homeless encampments, these days things just suddenly appear on streets one day without bothering to ask anyone’s permission.

Get the right combination of entrepreneurs and venture capitalists, devil-take-the-hindmost types like Amazon founder Jeff Bezos or Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg — or Erik Prince for that matter — and they’ll Just Do It.

Don’t wait for anyone’s approval. All that can wait until it’s time to write the prospectus for the IPO.

Proof of concept, baby!

Get the right people, the “Schumpeter creative destruction” libertarian capitalists on board, and just start building and installing LFTRs right and left.

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5 users have voted.

@lotlizard That is the way of the world now. Just do it. Tell regulators to go fuck themselves.

You have convinced me that the Thorium Energy Alliance needs your talents, like yesterday. Have you been hiding under a rock?

Gators and lizards seem to get this idea right out of the box.

Maybe I should get myself a reptilian pseudonym after all to help me more quickly understand. I'm thinking of something like elapidae. Probably too subtle though.

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5 users have voted.
QMS's picture

@p cook
No debating it. You are right. Just do it. Solar and wind for energy. Community gardens, co-ops. Local solutions. 'Public opinion' will never be exposed to this. Help yourself while you can.

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14 users have voted.

Listen to your higher mind.

@QMS When energy is generated in-house, it becomes real. Conservation, innovation, etc, are all in-play. Screw the grid!

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10 users have voted.

@p cook Why are progressives so regressive? Why the Luddite attitude?

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3 users have voted.

@davidgmillsatty perhaps because we've seen promise after promise on all the slick new tech toys which almost always turn out to have many more "negatives" than positives once they fully come online. Perhaps we're skeptical of big tech promises made and oh so celebrated while the world burns and nothing is really done about it. Disagreement does not always mean ignorance either. I think skepticism is not only warranted but necessary now but if your mileage varies that's fine, insults are hardly necessary. Don't we get enough hubris from our owners?

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8 users have voted.

@lizzyh7 I am just tired of progressives thinking the answer to everything is to go backwards. I thought that was a conservative idea. And yes we have had a lot of things that didn't work out.

I was explaining to my granddaughter (13 years old) yesterday about Moore's law. Computers have doubled their capability every 18 months for several decades now.

Sometimes I think we forget just how successful we humans have been.

And often we take the approach that our descendants won't be able to invent or fix a damn thing.

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4 users have voted.
lotlizard's picture

@p cook  
in pro-actively seeking to make their families and households more independent of existing grids and utilities.

And what if supply lines for food and other essentials in one’s area were to be disrupted for long stretches if not permanently?

Sharing knowledge as to how to restructure one’s life and become more self-sufficient was a major motivation for the Whole Earth Catalog and successors.

As part of disaster preparedness, the Mormon church tells member families to build up to having a full year’s supply of essential goods in readiness.

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9 users have voted.
ludwig ii's picture

It's in her Green New Military platform. Drones must be made with at least 25% sustainable materials, and the MREs fed to our occupying forces will now feature biodegradable packaging. Not a plastic straw in sight. Don't worry, America is already great and thanks to our changing climate, we have another opportunity to Win the Future!

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15 users have voted.

Thanks brother. Good to bump into you, trust you are well. Thanks again for the post.

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9 users have voted.
snoopydawg's picture

I have been reading lots of articles on Bernie's climate change ideas and most think that he has some good ideas. But not this guy who is shilling for the oil companies.

Great idea. Let's not even try to do something about the upcoming climate storm that is barreling at us. What an A-hole!

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13 users have voted.

America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

Cassiodorus's picture

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/the-amazon-rainforest-burns-jay-i...

Wallace-Wells, however, also reports upon the Bernie Sanders climate plan.

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4 users have voted.

"The degree to which liberals are coming to inhabit an alternate reality, impenetrable by facts or reason, is actually frightening." -- Steve Maher