Legitimate Government
I try to reduce complex problems to soluble models, and then extrapolate those trends to see if the models fit and therefore can predict real life. To do that I must identify a problem, model it as a system, define the sub systems, functions, and their boundaries, interfaces, and constraints.
The problem I see is our understanding of how our government works. Let's look at that.
Without doing research (this is a close reference to what I'm thinking), goes beyond even that.
Most Americans cling to the words and notions of the Founding Fathers, FFs, as in America's BFFs, without realizing the amount of thought, debate, actions up to and including treason and more, that went into this. I mean, really, actually, empathizing with Paul Revere and Nathaniel Hale.
When we contemplate the awful cost of this, the promise of the Renaissance, the New World (even before the Civil War). How many of our ancestors have fought and died for this! And lest you think this is an appeal to blood and soil, it is not. This is an appeal to our shared heritage as a Nation. That we stand as a beacon for Liberty isn't just a lucky roll of the dice. They died so that the will of the People would be the first duty of the elected officials. Our current elected officials need to be reminded of that.
I'm watching "The Man in the High Castle" right now. Just finished the first Season. Perhaps it is making me think.
A lot of fekin Blood, Sweat, and Tears went into building and establishing this, the greatest of nations. Let's not throw it away even as the greatest of rewards are within our grasp. Let's respect the efforts of those who strived to give us this. I don't know about you but my life is PARADISE compared to my fathers'.
We Need Legitimate Government, not The Handmaid's Tale. The granite foundation upon which this New World was established is spattered with both noble and ignoble blood. We, the People own all of this and all of that, and we must take Responsibility for seeing us through this time, whatever you think of it. It's not a quaint notion that we must preserve this world for our children. To think otherwise is the height of cynicism; we are stewards of this planets and the peoples in it, while we are here. He who died with the most toys didn't really win.
Anyway.. We must come out of this as Americans, together.
In conclusion, although the Founding Fathers defined what a Legitimate Government would consist of, it was not entirely effective for two reasons: 1. We didn't really know what they meant, and understanding it was hard, and 2. we forgot that it is our legacy after all, and we must groom ourselves to be the stewards* of our inheritance (we are spoiled grandchildren due for a comeuppance).
*- There goes my Queen's English with its default sexism, but "bride ourselves to be the stewardesses" wasn't gettin it haha..
Comments
Greatest of Nations?
You mean the one who has raped the resources of country after country for the past 60 years? Butchering, mutilating and starving millions of women and children because they could?
With all due respect, I think we need to take a hard look at what our military is actually doing around the world before we do any more flag waving.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
@Anja Geitz There is a lot of truth
There is a lot of truth in what you write; we aren't great actors on the world stage, I agree.
So, this government is illegitimate, then. I think that was implicit in my thinking.
I think I was saying that most American take the philosophy of the FFs for granted, and that we need to adapt our current approach to governance to the realities before us. I don't think I'm flag-waving.
I'm currently reading Snyder's "The Road to Unfreedom", in which he delineates two ideas: the politics of Inevitability and the politics of Eternity. He claims we were happily immersed in the former while Russia rushed to the latter, imposing it upon us. I suppose my thesis is along those lines: we must reject the philosophy of Inevitability and study history to guide us in our evolution as a nation. The alternative is Fascism. Which you may argue we are already there, I can't dispute that, but simply stating it without remedy seems unhelpful to me.
Bernie is a win-win.
I'm afraid you're going to find
Myself and a lot of others extremely unhelpful in regards to your plea to get on board once again as useful idiots in the political shit show that is running our government.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
@Anja Geitz Fair enough, I just
Fair enough, I just don't have any easy answers. I think my academic approach is probably too dry for those who see and feel the pain inflicted upon us by a ruling elite under whatever guise.
I am saying we can't afford Exceptionalism, so what about our current philosophy is failing us? I'd rather be in Europe on the whole, if for no other reason than decent health care that doesn't leave you homeless. I had believed that America, though never perfect, was better than it is now; for that I lament the years beginning with Reagan, pretty much all of them.
Appreciate your responses.
Bernie is a win-win.
You are indigenous to Europe.
There, you walk down a city street that is likely a thousands years old. You are walking on the bones of your ancestors. When you are present on the continent where your people evolved their racial characteristics and culture, and developed into modern humans over tens of thousands of years — you might feel the wisdom of the civilization you came from. You might hear the collective sighs of your people; the ones who brought you across many millennia to this moment. You are the future they dreamed of and sacrificed for, but where are you? Where did you go?
The Native Americans on this continent feel this very keenly. It's in all of us to have this deep attachment. The rest of the world are in places where they feel that. We don't. By the 1500s, the white Europeans went on the move with their boats and guns and canons. We Americans live in a recent genocide nation they created, they replaced the indigenous populations with themselves. The bonds that hold us together are shallow and are based on the violence we shared. There was once a vision and a brief enlightenment, but it died with the founders. The people couldn't keep it alive. All they have are the old documents. They don't know in their bones what their purpose is in this world.
We are all coming to grips with this at the end of our social experiment, isolated and unconnected. The hard work of putting down enduring roots is still ahead of us. We are still adapting. We fight phantom enemies that we think are coming to do to us what we did to the people who were here before us. Projection. It's all projection.
Birth of a Nation Indeed
Thank you Pluto, for that. As I read the initial part I recalled the words of Fareed Zakaria, CNN pundit, who essentially (in some such news show a few months back) extolled America because where the European states are "Blood and Soil", celebrating the virtues of a place unchanged through time for centuries, America is to be celebrated as that melting pot which does not exclude other people from different places.
Then, as I read on, your words invoked within me a memory of myself as an idealistic and angst-ridden teenager who understood that this land was their land, not our land. It occasioned a great sense of injustice within me, then. Comfortable and removed as we are from all of that now we still must confront those ghosts of our past.
Not to brag, but to indicate my sincerity, and also to promote a great documentary work, listen to this on your way to work (I did): http://www.sceneonradio.org/seeing-white/
In the book 1491, Charles C. Mann attributes to the invading white man a strict inevitability, felt by both opposing tribes, indigenous and invading; the natives believed that the invaders had the stronger god. The reason for this belief is that the natives were dropping like flies to influenza, smallpox, and other diseases without any apparent act by the invaders. According to Mann, the shores of America were bleached white with skeletons of dead natives.
And then more history happened. This is sad, but how to reconcile with current? How to heal? Lincoln suggested that we treat all people as equals going forward, mindful of debts owed and transgressions to be atoned for.
Bernie is a win-win.
60 years?
Native Americans may beg to differ.
The creation of the US required a lot "butchering, mutilating and starving." It appears to be a heritage that the US is unwilling to forego and, in fact, expand on at home and abroad.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
I was speaking more to our
our foreign policy. But, yes, you are right. The creation of the United States, and the genocide of the Native American tribes is part of our violent history as a nation.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
It would be easier to come up with a list of who
we have NOT been at war with or attacked than it would to make the list of who we had. I think sanctions (as it often achieves the same ends) should also be included so that will cover probably everybody.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
I keep a list of our victims
...for your reference:
And that's only the ones we know about
Thanks for the list. While thorough, I do not believe it is complete.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
I'm tired of American exceptionalism
I'm tired of American exceptionalism. It hasn't resulted in anything good, for either Americans or the rest of the world, including the planet itself.
Can't we try just being human, for a change?
I suspect the "founding fathers" would be disappointed but not completely surprised at what we've done with what they set in motion.
"Well, Doctor, what have we got — a Republic or a Monarchy?”
“A Republic, if you can keep it.”
-- attributed to Benjamin Franklin
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
@Centaurea I see I haven't been
I see I haven't been clear in what you apparently think is a puff piece on "how great we are as Americans".
I didn't say that. I am seeking a philosophy that enables us to move beyond what I thought was a pretty good philosophical start on building a nation. I am saying that we are getting it Wrong in our exceptionalism, and we need to go back and study history to figure out what we can do to get it right.
I adore life, nations just help me live it or not. I want better from America.
Bernie is a win-win.
@Bluesee
I suggest that a good place to start with a new philosophy would be to let go of the old philosophy, including the sentimental exceptionalist beliefs that have been instilled into the American psyche:
We're "the greatest of nations" and a "beacon of liberty" (from your post).
Sweet land of liberty, land of the free and the home of the brave. Our purpose is to bring Democracy to the entire world, so everything we do is good. "Why do they hate us? They hate us for our freedoms." Let freedom ring!
One nation under God, God shed his grace on thee, so our greatness is by divine right, a status bestowed on the USA and its citizens simply by virtue of being the USA. We don't have to do anything to maintain or preserve it. We don't have to actually practice "justice and liberty for all". It's just who we are, and it will always be that way. God said so! Love it or leave it!
(In some ways, the USA has done some outstanding things, and it's not necessarily bad to want to do great things. But basing one's identity on being "the greatest", on being better than everyone else, on being "special" -- that's not healthy.)
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
Observe behavior, the words, and note the discrepancies.
It's in the difference and what that implies that you might find something meaningful about the nature of the nation you adore. If you have insight into that, then you may have something to contribute to wider understanding, and perhaps, improvement.
Legitimization of the United States Government? Not in this lifetime.
@leveymg Would you not prefer a
Would you not prefer a government that is legitimate? How can we move toward that? The alternative is anarchy, which is demonstrably worse than this shitty American Republic.
Bernie is a win-win.
I think we are stuck
With this shitty Republic. Our electoral system is compromised. Our 4th estate is compromised. Our Judicial, Legislative, and Executive branches are compromised. There is no space anymore where we can "reform" our politics. Game. Set. Match.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Depends on what you mean by "anarchy"
Warlordism, aka rule by the strongest local bully, would almost certainly be worse. But that's not the only, or even the inevitable, form of anarchy....
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
@TheOtherMaven I do agree with you,
I do agree with you, and confess to a lack of imagination, although I once dreamt of such a world. I listen to Joe Rogen a lot; during the Elon Muck session, Joe opined that, in the future when there are no barriers to our brain and we know everything about each other real-time, we would no longer need to spend energy going along with social structures / strictures, nor need we be ashamed about any of our thoughts as we would be in constant contact with the entire world at all times. Sounds a little creepy, but it might be a quantum leap for us as a species. This is just one example, who knows what is possible with a little imagination?
Bernie is a win-win.
Could we do better? I’m not so sure.
I believe, when “we” repelled the British the founding fathers were struck with sober humility; the product which is the constitution and the bill of rights.
The correct interpretation can be understood by defining the words with the dictionary used while it was written.
Aristotle considered democracy a bad form of government, preferring a constitutional form.
Article 3, section 4 states we are “a republican form of government.”
If a better government is possible, it should be spelled out and considered.
The woes of our government, I believe, stem from the representatives not following the constitution as it is written but state we are a democracy.
As far as Pluto’s list, maybe we are what we are. That’s an awful lot of conflicts to deny what the track record suggests.
I can understand not wanting to be associated with the record, but we are.
During one of his seminars, Joseph Campbell asked “What the first pair of eyes saw?” When eyes evolved, and they could see what was going on around the body they were in, what conclusion did they come to?
He answered himself “Life eats life.”
While that’s true (ignoring it risks being eaten) we can still steward a good life for our progeny.
Philosophers throughout history suggest living a moral life is necessary in the pursuit of happiness.
I also stay mindful of the philosopher who stated selfishness and self-centeredness are the root of our problems.
I accept I am a nationalist. We gotta’ eat something! Just not each other, which we seem to do more now than 9/11/01 for example.
“You can’t fix it if it isn’t broken but you can break it.”
6 years ago our administration thought Venezuela was the way to go.
Here’s a clip from then, with concerns from our National Security adviser.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go85uBY6DSA
Look at it now, not for me.
We could do worse than our constitution, could we do better? I’m not so sure.
Everybody stops at the 8th Amendment
but the First Congress had the common sense to pass two more that, properly used (instead of totally ignored or even flatly negated the way they have been for 230 years), would have allowed the kind of periodic readjustments necessary to keep up with a changing world.
Ninth Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Tenth Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. (Emphasis added)
Sadly, the US Supreme Court has consistently held that these were just pointless window dressing, meaningless and inapplicable. (There have been rare arguments to the contrary, but never, ever a majority agreement on that.)
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Yes!
I am often dismayed when something becomes federal law that could easily be handled by the states.
It seems to me most people don’t appreciate the significant difference.
A state proposition could be perceived with “I’m really moving now if this thing passes.” Federal law, well, where are you going to go?
Competition among the states is healthy.
Hot button topics are often resisted because they are proposed as federal statutes. ACA already existed in Massachusetts and RVW would only go back to the states (I doubt that’ll ever change though. Being male I have no opinion on it). Still, it’s a better idea.
I don’t smoke pot either, but I see how the federal law complicates the matter for states that want to self-govern.
I suspect too much federal regulation plays a part in the division we witness among us.
I like a “live and let live” approach.
I’ll leave New York when I retire, I hope there’s someplace I can go.