If you dislike Clinton's conservative policies vote for Stein, not Trump
It is really messed up for any supporter of the 99 percent to vote for Trump, because you are telling the elites you like ALL of Trump's policies, including the wall, the attacks on women, and getting rid of the estate tax, all of it. You are telling them you endorse all of his views. A vote for Stein leaves Trump with a possible victory but no mandate. I am sorry, but I think the Trumpista lesser evilists are really lame, and they are the reason I am becoming disenchanted with this blog.
First off, I think many of you really do support Trump's nastier policies, but are trying to trick liberals into following you. This is why our site has been overtaken by the b-word and the c-word, with reference to certain women. Secondly you are making a lesser evil argument! "We only get two choices, so we have to chose the one who does less damage! A vote for Stein is a feel good vote for the privledged" This is the same argument Clintonistas are making. Third you are making this a Trump vs Clinton blog, which is the reason DU and DK suck, and have become boring!
Comments
My sense of it that people here
are not going to vote for Trump. I, like many others here are voting for Stein.
"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage
I'm also voting for Stein.
The people, united, will never be defeated.
There are several very
There are several very popular threads where people including mods here advocate voting for Trump. http://caucus99percent.com/content/21st-century-voter-%E2%80%94-how-depl...
They also shame and guilt trip Stein voters, who won't vote for Trump, as voting just to feel good about themselves, which is exactly the argument the Clinton lesser-evilists use.
This is a nonpartisan site...
folks are free to advocate voting for whomever they want.
I'm sorry that you are disenchanted with this site and it's not meeting your expectations. Perhaps this explains your recent spate of disparaging comments about c99p.
And FYI, I support Jill Stein and plan to vote for her, but this will not become a Green only site just as it wasn't a Bernie Sanders only site.
It should be a site that
It should be a site that represents the 99 percent though. How is Trump advocacy doing that?
No Parties...
represent the 99% except maybe for the Greens. Are you suggesting we censor all political advocacy except for them, because that is not what this site is about.
No but I would suggest that
No but I would suggest that politicians who are nakedly hostile to the 99percent shouldn't be advocated here. Bigots, and people who don't like minimum wage, and people who don't believe in estate taxes, seem beyong the pale for a site that cares about such things.
You've just eliminated...
everyone but the Greens.
Again, that's not what this site is about. May I suggest you go and read essays from this site prior to the March migration from Daily Kos, this will help you understand what this site is about.
Keeping out people who don't
Keeping out people who don't support minimum wage and support the estate tax eliminates everyone but the greens? That is ridiculous. The site is for the nonpartisan left. How are Trump advocates of the left in any way?
No...
Republicans are also welcome here as long as they are civil and don't shill. We have a couple of Republicans that are long time members here, many centrists also. It's not only for the nonpartisan left. We lean to the left but we are open to all. If that doesn't suit you, well, I'm sorry about that.
We are about issues, we eschew a parochial echo chamber.
How is advocacy of Trump
How is advocacy of Trump voting not shilling?
Listen...
I'm tired of chasing my tail with you. I have better things to do.
I say we invite the Trumpies so
that we can persuade them with Jedi Mind tricks to vote otherwise. No-- these are not the immigrants you are looking for...
"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage
LMAO!
you can go about your business.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Bill Clinton and Barack Obama
have done wonders to ease the "tax burden" of the rich. Obama, in particular, took about 80% of the Bush tax cuts and made them permanent.
The Democrats are no more on the side of the 99% than the Republicans are. Their million-dollar ad buy against Alan Grayson should have shown that pretty clearly, if the months of shit they dealt to Bernie Sanders didn't make it clear.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
consider that some will vote for Hillary only to stop Trump
you might know some like that. I certainly do. Some people I like quite a bit, too. Yet they have this fear of Trump that will make them vote for someone they disliked only 6 weeks ago.
They're going to vote that way because they're looking at the election as strategy. They are not voting for their real choice, they are voting because they want to avoid some terrible catastrophe starting in January. It is their Plan B.
In a similar way, others look at the election and conclude that a victory by either Hillary or Trump is a disaster. These people realize that the political reality is that one of them will win, that we are going to have that catastrophe one way or another. So a different strategy is needed, a different Plan B.
That raises the question "which will provide the most relief, the quickest?" Some think Hillary, awful as she'll be, will keep things at least "as they are", thus she's the better alternative. The argument against that is that if she wins she'll be re-nominated in 2020 so anything better can't happen until 2024. Further, if she's re-elected in 2020 then the Republicans are more likely to win in 2024, pushing the better world off until (if we're lucky) 2028. Lots of "ifs" there!
And, according to this argument, a Trump win would be so terrible that it would be repudiated in 2020. Looked at that way, a Trump win this year works better over the long-term.
I'm not voting for that creep, though. I'll vote for Jill Stein to register my opposition, from the Left, to the Democrats. But I understand the reason why some would vote for Trump.
Though I can understand the "strategic" approach
to vote for Trump to have Hillary lose the elections, I will not support those ideas.
The policies that come out from the State Department and the DoD influence international war and peace developments. Other countries want to be able to understand what the next President is up to. They are not able to draw conclusions about Trumps thinking. He talks like a lunatic. Trump is a lose cannon.
Hillary Clinton is a cannon, but I think that most Europeans and other countries rather deal with a cannon they know is targetted precisely and thus being able to hopefully influence the US from shooting and bombing the wrong countries for the wrong reasons than dealing with a loose cannon.
Trump is wau too risky and uses racist and ethnic provocations to pour oil on the fires. He is a lose idiotic cannon. Hillary is dangerous, because she is a stubborn and arrogant and lying woman, who wants to prove her strength and doesn't care about the consequences. I don't think overseas people see Hillary Clinton as what she is. That's the problem. If there were resistance against her foreign policy agenda, it would be helpful. But there isn't, afaik.
JtC, I am seriously impressed
with how you're handling all this. Just wanted to say.
And obviously, I agree with you: there should be absolutely no dictating how site users vote. For God's sakes, didn't we have enough of that at DKos?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Thank you CStS...
from you that is a yuuuge compliment. Just trying to stick to the ideals that you set on course for this ship, so long ago.
:-) You're doing a great job.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
You have your goals for your vote, and I have mine.
My #1 goal is to destroy the Clintons and the Democratic Party as it is today. If it is close in MI and I can make her lose by voting for Trump, you better believe I'll jump at the chance. If it isn't close, I'll vote for Stein.
Your vote belongs to you. Do with it whatever you want.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Amen to this:
Your vote belongs to you. Do with it whatever you want.
That's the essence of democracy. It blows my mind that anybody feels OK about guilting anybody about their vote, for any reason. That's an awful cultural shift. As late as the 90s, nobody would have dreamed of doing that.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The Coalition Defense Vote
Is a complex gimmick based on weak political analysis and implausible assumptions.
I would be surprised if even a few hundred Berniacs follow through on voting for Trump.
"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn
Yeah but, Stein is polling at 4%
Sounds to be like a few hundred Berniacs are going her way.
I bet they all stay home.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
People here will vote their values & feel free to talk about it.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Trump thinks your wages are too high
He doesn't talk about it these days, but Trump thinks your wages are too high. He said so in a Tea-GOP debate last November. Instead he now says he wants to bring jobs back from overseas - omitting that you will have to work harder for less money.
Americans already work an average of 47 hours a week. Our wages have stagnated since 1979.
"We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."
Sadly,
everybody except (maybe) Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein think our wages are too high. Clinton only adopted a partial minimum wage increase because it was polling well for Sanders.
Trump did say wages are too high to compete in a global economy but he also has a tax plan that exempts couples making up to $50,000 a year from paying any federal income taxes at all. That will benefit a lot of ordinary families.
I'll bet you $1,000 that many Democratic politicians believe the same thing, that wages are too high. Otherwise, why would they be busily enacting trade agreements that result in fewer jobs and lower wages for Americans?
There are elites, and there are elites.
I'm not sure most of the ones making important decisions about our political situation are as stupid as your first sentence implies.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
Why bitch about a site instead of just going elsewhere?
I do not want Trump to be president, but I think it might be better for us all if he wins over Hillary.
We know racism and religious intolerance is bad, but NOTHING is worse than war.
I can vote for Stein as a reasonable solution to the problem, but my state of Texas will go for Trump.
Everybody has their own reasons and view points, and I love the discussion.
Returning to my question posed, why bitch about c99?
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
These people advocate
These people advocate actually voting for him, not just that his win might be less bad for us than Hillary.
Censorship
I'm voting for Stein. Writing that sentence in TOP would get me banned. I left TOP to avoid censorship, not to censor anybody else.
What are you afraid of? Do you think the rest of us are impressionable children who need your intellectual protection?
You didn't answer my question.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
It's true that if we have a hot war between superpowers
for the first time since 1945, it's likely all these other issues will be washed away in oceans of blood.
and Hill is more likely to successfully start such a war.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
where's all this bad language?
maybe it's in those threads I haven't read.
Meanwhile my vote is not "telling elites" anything. The "elites" should be guillotined or talked to sternly or something. I certainly am not putting them on a pedestal and saying "oh elites, here's what I think. Please consider it, o most worthy ones!"
"The elites" don't give a shit what we think
except in that they'd like to manipulate our perceptions so we cause them less inconvenience.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I agree with your 1st paragraph
There's no strategic benefit in voting for Trump or Clinton.I'll be writing in Sanders.
The 2nd paragraph? I spend a fair amount of time here and I'm just not seeing what you're seeing.
Solidarity
OMG, seriously?
This assumes nobody here is liberal....get outta here!
I, for one, thank the essayist.
This essay really opened my eyes. I didn't realize I was becoming a dupe of Trump's minions merely by participating here on C99. I didn't know that many of the people I thought were decent and nice and kind are in reality racists and misogynists pushing Trump's nasty policies like corner dope dealers push crack cocaine. Even worse, I didn't suspect that all of the Trump fellow travelers infesting this site are trying to trick poor old liberal me into following them down the path to perdition. If I weren't an atheist, I'd pray for salvation of my immortal soul.
Bless you, my dear!
You made me smile, and I was starting to think this site was gonna get ripped apart.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Between Trump and Clinton; Trump is the lesser of two evils.
Given that Trump is the lesser of two evils does not demand a vote for Trump. We have many choices, and my guide is to vote my interests which has been a Democratic party talking point about white voters who keep voting republican. Well, I am taking them up on it. Under either candidate, I will suffer alot.
So if somebody says their take on the candidates is guided by lesser of two evils. Yes, would understand a vote for Trump.
But there are other choices, and my choice is now Stein. She represents my personal interests.
BTW. Just a note on why Clinton would be worse. If Trump is elected he will have both gopers and dems within both houses of Congress and every gop or dem beaurocrat actively fighting his agenda. As president his main power will be in foreign policy/war which seems to be avoiding war with major powers.
If Hillary is elected, she will have the entire Democratic party lawmakers supporting her agenda regardless how odious. When she turns rightwards which she will do on economic issues, she will have support of both parties. (Her main opposition may not be from the gop but eventually from African Americans who will realize that Clinton plans to do nothing about critical AA issues unless they are symbolic and cost her nothing. Establishment AA Dem leaders will attempt the quell the masses, but as happened in previous times, young African Americans will revolt against do nothing leaders.)
Good Lord
where is this 'bad' language infestation by woman haters we're supposedly having? This is just another scolding and a call for censorship on a site that is not partisan or any candidate's fan club. Why insult everybody here because they are able to talk about politics and this surreal election without some asshole telling them that they support the nasty policies of both Trump or Hillary. You've got this upside down.
It's not a Trump site it's not a Clinton or even a Jill site and it's not a 'better Dem. site. Me I'm voting for Stein but I do not mind hearing other opinions of what people feel is the best option for the 99%. I'm not a Green and I'm sure as hell not a Democrat but no party/candidate loyalty oaths are demanded here. Seriously who I vote for is nobodies bees wax. You might be better off advocating for your candidate by not attacking the people who disagree.
My 2 Copper-Alloy-Jacketed Zinc Slugs Worth
I do not support Trump OR Hillary. I believe Hillary to be the greater threat to the United States, not that Trump won't harm us quite a bit. But I wouldn't vote for him if he was the only candidate left standing. I wouldn't urinate on him if he was completely engulfed in a four-alarm rapid oxidation episode.
But if he manages to out-steal votes over Hillary, then the USofA Inc. deserves him. Our karma is horrible, and it may be that he's the trigger to bring on the retribution. It's what we get for falling for the Reagan BS, letting the Bushes wage world war, and doing nothing about the Clintons' corruption.
That is why I will vote Green. $JillNotHill
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
I'm shocked that you think this:
First off, I think many of you really do support Trump's nastier policies, but are trying to trick liberals into following you.
Addressing the last part of the sentence first (trying to trick liberals into following you.)
Is this site about getting people to follow other people? I guess, under some circumstances--like I'd certainly like people to help me push Vote Pact. But is wanting people to work with you on an idea the same thing as wanting them to *follow* you?
And addressing the first part of the sentence:(I think many of you really do support Trump's nastier policies)
I know the group of people running this site. I was the one who started the original group that morphed into this site. The people running this place are people I started conversations with back on DK, people I trusted. If you think that I chose Tea Party types to trust, then you don't know me.
Those of you who've known me for a while, who have seen my comments and diaries and posts over time, can decide for yourselves if I would assemble a group that secretly believed in jingoism, walls across our southern border, racism against Black people, Mexicans, and Arabs, sexism against women.
I'll make one caveat: I wouldn't rule out working with right-wing people on some issues. I've already done so on 4th amendment issues. Where they are actually able to see the truth and act for the common good, I'm not going to let prejudice against them stop me from working with them. Some of them are against the TPP. Some of them are against the Middle East wars. Some of them are against the police state. Their reasons for being against these things aren't mine, but I'm not going to refuse to work with them on those issues.
But that is not at all the same thing as people here "secretly" being in league with Donald Trump and trying to trick liberals. I know that the people who run this site are nothing of the kind.
Unfortunately, if you haven't read my comments over a long period of time, if you don't know me, none of that is gonna mean squat to you.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
And by the way, I'm voting for Stein.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The main use of DemocRATlican money is to scare and divide
That's the only way they can use their money to win. This site is not going downhill, it is climbing, but it will start going downhill, just like the GOS, if we play the DemocRATlican game. I'm with Jill until election day when I might rethink, depending on the situation. Jill's best chance to win is to convince Trump supporters of their errors. Trump supporters are not Orcs.
Beware the bullshit factories.