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California depends on 3,100 inmates to help work the fire lines during wildfires. But due to Covid19 only 1,306 inmates are currently deployed. Typically non-violent offenders are moved to the Conservation Camp Program which includes 43 facilities.
This year the numbers are lower because many inmates (5,627 as of July 1) have been released directly to their communities.
For more than 70 years CalFire has provided an “opportunity” for those incarcerated to “work” on the front lines.
.
Inmate firefighters earn between $2.90 and $5.12 per day, with an additional $1 per hour when they are on the fires lines. They get one or two days off their sentence for each day worked, depending on which crew they work. They normally work 24 hours shifts, sometimes as long as 48 hours. They carry 60-pound packs and three-foot chain saws.
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The system of inmate firefighters was born of necessity during World War II, when many of the state’s firefighters were shipped off as soldiers to Europe and the Pacific. Inmates were deployed to fill their places. Several states, including Arizona, Georgia, Nevada and Wyoming, employ prisoners to fight fires, but none have as many as California.
.
The California prisons department estimates that its Conservation Camp Program, which includes the inmate firefighters, saves California taxpayers
tens of millions of dollars a year. Hiring firefighters to replace them, especially given the difficult work involved, would challenge a state already strapped for cash.
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To mitigate the [personnel] shortage, Cal Fire has hired an additional 858 seasonal firefighters, brought on more bulldozers, redirected six California Conservation Corps crews to work on fire-mission related tasks, and established temporary frontline hand crews. It’s also requested further assistance from out of state, including 375 fire engines. This sounds like a lot of help, but these efforts still don’t make up for the lost prison labor.
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So, they have brought on more bulldozers to make up for inmate hand crews? Am I reading that correctly? In any case, only hand crews can work in inaccessibly steep terrain, which there is a great deal of, particularly near Highway 9 and the communities along it.
There are those that consider the inmate crews a resource and feel that their release was not justified. There seems to be no recognition of the value of human life – life is simply a commodity.
Simply said, this lack of foresight is because the reality of the Climate Crisis has not been taken seriously. Consequently there was no anticipation of the repercussions from Climate Chaos on a policy level.
The expanding drought in the Southwest is a result of Global Heating. The convection currents rising from the equator are stronger, the tropopause is moving upwards because of this, and the currents (Hadley cells) that move air away from the equator, towards subtropical latitudes are getting larger. Accordingly, deserts are moving northwards, which is and will continue to affect the weather in the US.
So, yes, we are still ignoring the climate crisis and the destruction of the biosphere, all the while exacerbating the pandemic and ignoring racial injustice.
.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGZncHP5V0A&feature=youtu.be]
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Right, and the political charade continues.
The thread is open
~
This is to say that this very thread is open for any and all comments about anything and everything. It is your Open Thread. It is a vessel from which your wisdom can spring forth, or some such.
Comments
Cali is on fire
and Louisiana is under water
infrastructure failure
sheesh
https://www.nola.com/news/hurricane/article_7587022e-e7ea-11ea-9ba5-775b...
Water wall
“To think that there would be a wall of water over two stories high coming onshore is very difficult for most to conceive, but that is what is going to happen as we move into the early morning hours tonight into Thursday,” Schott said. “There will be a wall up to 18 to 20 feet at the highest point. The majority of Cameron Parish will be underwater at some point.”
afternoon q
the latest on laura...
be well, take care, hope for the best
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the chemical plant on fire
turned out be chlorine. #JezumCrow. i've been following it mainly by was of a Twitter storify as a PSA in community content since last night.
no words for the devastation, really, even though the surges weren't as high as they'd predicted.
dont tase me man
hi magi and good morning to all. i want to say out loud thanks a lot to magiamma my clavicle bone seems to be healing well. even though i couldnt grind the herbs goopy enough the last two applications totally improved my vintage tank top with comfrey colors it was so sopping good. she even sent me t-shirt scraps to wrap each bundle and she coached me on the applications. thanks magi.
the air is better but the damage continues. i think i caught something like smoke madness if there is such a thing. im still not right. and always talking man the homeless guy finally made his break in my direction. told me i was gonna get myself killed. and he was going to be the one to do it. what am i gonna do call the cops. lol
this is what happens when you call the police. just in case anyone was thinking about a 5150 for me please dont. because this is what happens when you call the police.
Sonoma County sheriff releases video footage from fatal Guerneville altercation
which makes me have to ask do people really watch such things. reality torture murder of mental patient why not. really. i read the transcript how disgusting. is that what civilization has become a bunch of reality tv gawkers. jhfc that is sick. oh wait sorry its me with the coo coo for coco puffs diagnosis so it must be healthy. please proceed governor. vote d
this is a screenshot i took off windy dot com on monday. i couldnt believe my eyes to be honest. it is a forecast for tuesdays air quality with the pm2.5 filter applied. i guess everything is okay today right. i just cant look anymore whats the point.
black hole of killifornia
seriously. i think smoke madness is real and thats not good.
heres something good flower power in the dirt patch. yesterday i met a young couple who digs the sunflowers downstairs. it is the second crop just started blooming. they took seeds for their own garden patch down the street spreading the love. she is the one that shouted whats your story morning glory from her bike at the yard across the street one day. it was great. then i saw donna on her pink bike she dings the bell when im out watering. on her way back she ding ding dinged and shouted thanks for the beauty at me. lol right on. see all trump voters arent horrid ogres. theyre just people thats all. neighbors.
already i regret calling hillary clinton an insufferable bitch but im going to leave that one up there . if only as reminder to keep those crass lizard brain outbursts more to myself. use your inner voice eyo. om
oops. oh well. keep going.
sometimes insanity is the best defense
smokington's disease sounds not fun
glad the clavicle is healing
love the thoughtful cow
hola eyo
your so welcome. Glad all is getting better.
Friend of mine gave me comfrey in grad school - sculpting and all - a bit of banging around.
I shelpped them to CA and now have around 10 patches. They like it here. Need to grab some to freeze or dry for winter. My experience is that it stops bruising and takes down swelling quickly. Don't bang my self up too often but it's been a goddess send when I have.
They used comfrey in the 2nd world war to heal bone breaks. The native americans called it bone heal. It works.
NOT TO BE TAKEN INTERNALLY. Though some have. I would not, nor would recommend it.
love the moo moo. excellent.
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“Honest Reporting Canada” — what a joke! And CBC = so spineless:
Even uttering the mere word “Palestine” on the air is unpalatable to some, who evidently possess so much pull with the Powers That Be they can get it pulled.
https://mondoweiss.net/2020/08/palestine-deleted/
And: “EATED”
11 years ago amid the Great Financial Crisis, Atrios, proprietor of the Eschaton blog, was religiously keeping track of banks going bust and being seized and disposed of under FDIC rules. For some reason he was in the habit of referring to this process as “being EATED” (as opposed to “being eaten”).
https://www.eschatonblog.com/2009/02/eated_16.html
And also: “Eater”
A blog called “Eater” weighs in on the palpable palatability of mold on
political parties and presidential candidatesfoods past their expiration date:https://www.eater.com/21324222/moldy-food-safety-whats-safe-to-eat
eated vs eaten
eat the rich. may they be eaten. eated them up.
so no more reporting on the banks by Eschaton? Seems like a worthy endeavor. Did you see this from Wendy?
Awesome, no? Thanks. Be well, take care, stay safe.
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Thanks! Good to zero in on exactly who it is behind the curtain!
“Say their names!” — goes for the 1% perps as well as the 99% victims.
Names and faces!
Right-wing populists: “George Soros!” Left-wing populists: “The Koch brothers!” Anti-Semites of both Left and Right (or maybe just people who distrust casino magnates?): “Sheldon Adelson!”
But single individuals are just the tip of the iceberg. There are whole networks of insider figures …
Good morning, magi ~~
I see the 13th amendment is alive and well in California.
We've been suffering from the CA smoke in NM, too. Everyday a red ball rises in the east. I feel like I live in Seattle. One gets used to 300+ days of sunshine. The smoke is also cooling the earth - in my neck of the woods, anyway.
Got a small shower last night. I fell asleep to the sound of rain - such joy!
Lets all live presently every day, be grateful for everything, spread your love to all.
Smile and raise your vibration!
Enjoy the day!
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
morning ra ra
Ray of sun light, you are. Light. Bright. Yes, looks like the transition is coming right on at us like a mac truck. Be light, be well.
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Laura and the fires out west...
sure express the increasing chaos we can expect.
XR has another newsletter on actions around the world...
https://extinctionrebellion.uk/2020/08/23/global-newsletter-42-gluttons-...
This 3 min toon was included...
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdNjRdsq1qA]
Prison and slavery...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/23/prisoner-speak-out...
Hang on folks...
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
hello lo
Finally go around to watching The Coming War on China. Thanks for that link.
Highly recommend it...
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfeYMONj9E]
yep. exponential. like you said, hang on and love the ones your with. Be well, take care, stay safe.
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Cheerful news from the Arctic
on Science Daily:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200826104056.htm
Again, climate models have proven to be too conservative. Change is happening faster than predicted.
"Our analyses of Arctic Ocean conditions demonstrate that we have been clearly underestimating the rate of temperature increases in the atmosphere nearest to the sea level, which has ultimately caused sea ice to disappear faster than we had anticipated,"
I've been trying to get an idea of actual storm surge observations in LA, with no success so far, probably because there are no witnesses or surviving instruments. FEMA's funds are being gutted to dribble out unemployment substitutes. I don't believe in prayer, but I feel like I should pray for Louisiana.
hi pindar
It's melting. The tropopause is also rising in the Arctic and causing a lot of disruption of the jet stream.
here is a podcast
Arctic sea ice under attack, and ancient records that can predict the future effects of climate change
https://www.sciencemag.org/podcast/arctic-sea-ice-under-attack-and-ancie...
Methane Hydrates Tipping Point threatens to get crossed
https://arctic-news.blogspot.com/2020/08/methane-hydrates-tipping-point-...
Scientists Made an Alarmingly Easy Trip to the North Pole
https://earther.gizmodo.com/scientists-made-an-alarmingly-easy-trip-to-t...
ain't we got fun. be well, stay safe.
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Methane for the masses
Thank you for the arctic-news.blogspot link. Very detailed explanation of temperature flows in the Arctic, and how floating ice acts as a heat sponge via phase change (melting). Ice absorbs a lot of heat with little temperature change near 0 deg C before it melts.
Coupla things occurred to me:
-while methane is in "shallow" Arctic sediment, I missed how shallow. This matters a lot because warm water really wants to stick near the surface. Vertical water exchange depends on density differences; seawater density differences are mainly due to temperature and salinity. Is there some mechanism for vertical water exchange in the Arctic? Otherwise, the surface heat will reach the sediment through the slower process of conduction. Some data on how rapidly surface heat reaches the sediment would put the threat in more perspective.
-the measurements of methane at different pressure levels in the atmosphere is alarming. Historical comparison, again, would put this in perspective. In any case, we REALLY don't want methane over the Arctic!
I'll try to field this one...
but I didn't read the article you were asking about, specifically. So I might be answering the wrong thing.
The continental shelves in the Arctic are the largest in the world, and quite shallow. Much of it is 100 to 150 meters. It was exposed during the last ice age and bitterly cold much of the time. Rivers (all the Siberian rivers flow north into the Arctic) deposited organic material and layered mud on top of it, then the deep cold froze it. As sea levels rose these plains were covered with water just above freezing, which is -2C for seawater, so the sediments stayed frozen. The surface froze over and stayed frozen much or all of the year. It was stable.
The mixing mechanism in question is waves. With the surface melted for weeks or months across broad areas, big waves are able to form. Waves mix the water column down to either a quarter or a half (I forget) of the wavelength. The surface water is mixed down to the seabed and warms it above freezing. The melting mud is all that is stabilizing the frozen methane hydrates. It's anyone's guess how fast it will melt, where weak spots may be, where and how large pockets of free methane are present and able to emerge from a newly melted fissure.
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone
Good answer
Thanks.
Wind-induced ocean waves can mix heat content. In the arctic-news link from magi, there is also mention of Arctic cyclones. So there's yet another element to the feedback loops: the higher sea-surface temperatures and open water cause more storms, thus more mixing, thus more GHG release.
A reference from a Stanford course states that the top 100 meters of ocean is well-mixed (http://ocean.stanford.edu/courses/EESS243/readings/Chapter_8.pdf). Below 100 meters the temperature drops fast. So sediments around 100 meter depth will feel the heat.
it seems that the air temps
in siberia are about 100 degres still, and robert hunziker has more on the fires burning:
August 12, 2020, Freakish Arctic Fires Alarmingly Intensify
Like a coal mine fire
Except with NEW! IMPROVED! methane release. Those peat fires are disturbing. Hopefully some of the methane released from the cold peat hydrates will ignite and yield boring old CO2. I don't know if that will actually help. Although methane has much greater greenhouse effect than carbon dioxide, it also has a much shorter half-life in the atmosphere. Some years ago I read a paper by Susan Solomon (of ozone hole fame) which argued that it would take 1,000 years for CO2 levels to fall to the pre-industrial concentration by natural processes, even if we stopped industrial-scale emissions now.
There's a decent wiki on atmospheric methane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane which gives a half-life of 9.1 years for atmospheric methane, compared to about 100 years for CO2.
edit: spelling
iirc, you'd given me that
wiki in a PM conversation we'd had earlier. not having a science background, i gave up early on trying to grasp it. i will offer more of my likely ignorance, in that magi's methane link (oy, and what a link and images!) had spoken only of methane hydrates, not methane clathrates, which releases seemed even more of a tipping point indicator in terms of feedback loops, etc. i'd thought r. hunziker had specified the differences.
how teh Wiki has this to say:
clathrate/hydrate
Clathrate is the more general term. In this case, hydrate refers to a clathrate formed by water molecules. A clathrate traps atoms or molecules inside a crystal lattice, without actually forming a chemical bond with the trapped atoms/molecules. This is somewhat simplified but will do for the purposes of discussing trapped methane. When the ice lattice melts, the methane is released.
From another wiki, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_hydrate :
"
Around 6.4 trillion (6.4×1012) tonnes of methane is trapped in deposits of methane clathrate on the deep ocean floor.[7] Such deposits can be found on the Norwegian continental shelf in the northern headwall flank of the Storegga Slide. Clathrates can also exist as permafrost, as at the Mallik gas hydrate site in the Mackenzie Delta of northwestern Canadian Arctic. These natural gas hydrates are seen as a potentially vast energy resource and several countries have dedicated national programs to develop this energy resource.
"
Note the reference to "natural gas hydrates" in this discussion of clathrates, illustrating how, in this sense, "hydrate" is a more specific form of "clathrate". Plus, that's a shitload of methane trapped down there.
The atmospheric methane is what traps incoming solar heat. It bubbles up out of the seafloor (or the peat, for that matter) and reaches the surface, where it enters the atmosphere. There are chemical and biological processes which can eat up methane in the water before it reaches the atmosphere, but in shallow waters these processes don't get much chance to act. Methane is a fairly reactive chemical, so it gets eaten up. Chemicals in the atmosphere (esp hydroxyl radicals) eat up methane. One reason that Arctic methane is so problematic is that there seems to be little hydroxyl over the Arctic, so the methane lasts longer.
I didn't cite that wiki earlier because I just looked it up
.
Hydroxl radicals
These form in the upper atmosphere where water vapor is hit by ultraviolet light. Its rate of formation is independent of the amount of methane present. Winter in the Arctic has little light, so the hydroxl radicals formation grinds to a halt and they are depleted by reacting with the methane present and the remaining methane remains stable until spring. This provides a nice little blanket over the Arctic to keep temperatures higher over the winter. More open water means more water vapor which is also a greenhouse gas, so starting the freezing season with more open water adds another blanket, further raising temperatures and retarding ice formation.
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone
my mistake,
but you hadn't answered my Q; but then, it might not deserve an answer in any event. i'll bow out now to go take care of RL chores.
Q?
Sorry, I thought I had addressed your question. Apologies if I missed something.
If I understand it correctly, you asked about why the half-life of methane in the atmosphere matters. This is because it's in the atmosphere that methane does its GHG damage, by trapping heat in the air. Most of the methane that bubbles out of clathrates/hydrates reaches the atmosphere. The half-life of methane in the atmosphere matters because it is a measure of how long the methane can do the GHG damage, by accumulating heat over a period of time.
HTH!
Cheers
my Q was:
i'm not able to understand why it makes much difference as to the half-life of atmospheric methane being 9.1 years if it's bubbling out of the ocean floors (on edit: including the south pole) , the melting permafrost, and shallow lakes, myownself.
but you and woods dweller may have answered it, and i was too ig'rant to get it. but tht the northern permafrost is no longer a carbon sink, but a net carbon emitter, as is the amazon rain forest (at least the brazilian part), nor are parts of the ocean (and yes, i'd never found a current simplistic enough version for me to grok re: phytoplankton coloring), i really should bow out. i just think it's all over. we've collectively killed Gaia, including most of her soils w/ round-up ready and bT GMOs in amerika, africa, and india for starters.
Ah! I see
the difference, I think. You're thinking why worry about half-lives when we're falling over the cliff of the tipping point. I'm thinking of half-lives in terms of how much worse methane might be than CO2, in the longer term. Maybe I'm seeking emotional shelter in detachment.
Methane's a quick hard punch that doesn't stick around as long. But that quick punch is quite likely enough to tip us over.
We won't kill Gaia. Just the parts that allow us to thrive as we have, along with a lot of innocent bystander species. I have a hard time avoiding plunging down a grief hole; for years I've been saying goodbye to things I love. But I doubt that we will even succeed in extinguishing our species, judging by our past adaptability.
Police state is on the way
https://www.mintpressnews.com/police-told-right-wing-kenosha-killer-we-a...
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
hola gg
very disturbing. One of the militia said that there were thousands - 3? maybe ready to come out. And they are welcoming them. Brown shirts, much?
That was my first thought too. Portland all over again. Just practice runs maybe. Trying to stay positive and still stay informed. What a task.
Keep up the good work! Be well, stay safe, take care.
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Weimar Germany stuff, where political groups across the spectrum
ended up having organized roving gangs of toughs who smashed up other groups’ meeting places and went at it hammer-and-tongs (melee weapons, guns, even dynamite) with political rival gangs.
Good morning magi. Fun fact - that work that the inmate
firefighters do isn't even "job training". Once they are released they can't get jobs doing that work because of restrictions based on their criminal records. It's pretty sick.
There is a great "2020 Funpocalypse" disaster bingo card here: https://boingboing.net/2020/08/26/a-disaster-bingo-card-for-the.html
Dozers can't fully substitute for hand crews, but in a lot of cases there simply aren't enough of them available to do what they can do. Same-same bombers. (I actually was volunteeer hand-crew in a small one of these once, local VFD kept tons of hand eqpt. and everybody who could pitched in.)
Aaaand we're still not taking the climate emergency at all seriously. Ah well ... .
be well and have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
hi el
I saw that in one of the articles about the inmate firefighters. There is a post by Fair that addresses a bunch of this also. Was also in yesterdays EB.
https://fair.org/home/us-media-cant-think-how-to-fight-fires-without-1-a...
The most interesting bit I thought was this...
and this
Take good care, stay safe.
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this is inciWeb's
national interactive fire map. click a fire for it's name, location, percentage contained, and 'go to the incident page' arrows.
the pine gulch fire north of us has burned about 156,000 acres (largest in CO history) and is 53% contained. the grizzley creek fire's only burned 32,000 acres, but has shut down the glenwood canyon road for days now. the smokes thinned here for now, guess a bit of breezes from the right directions.
i dunno in what terrain any of the zillion Cal Fires are, but some must be less steep areas where bulldozers are invaluable. rather than fire-fighters sawing down trees, even for back-burn ignition with kerosene burners (a nasty-ass ojb), the dozers can create their own fire lines.
i'd thought that wsws had reported that Cal Fire had requested australian firefighters to help them, but you now my
holeyholy memory.best to you all.
I read that CA asked for fire fighting help
from both Australia and Canada a few days ago. I do not remember where I read it however.
hi wendy
so self absorbed I have been remiss. Sorry to hear about 'your' fires. Fire this time, I guess. Carmel Valley is burning too. So many now. People here are starting to move back to ucsc and scotts valley. So there's that. They are doing a controlled burn up in the Ben Lommand area today ( and yesterday ). Very very very smokey here. All hepa air filters are sold out nationally and locally and box fans too. new normal. thanks for the dr bill blog. ak. aside from smoke, protests, and climate chaos, all well on the western front, er left coast. k. ride it like you find it. heh.
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We’ve had cuts and austerity
For decades. Basic infrastructure maintenance has been postponed or ignored. Now everything is falling apart. There are no reserves. At one time in our history, this country had the some of the finest infrastructure in the world, admired, even coveted by those in other countries.
Corporations shipped their factories overseas. Very little is made in the US anymore. I keep wondering why they are so eager for wars. One has to have more than weapons to fight a war. And we are dependent on other countries for the very boots and uniforms for the military. Parts for planes, tanks, etc. are made in other countries. How do they think they can make a war when so many essentials have to come from somewhere else? Either I’m missing something or the warmongers have lost their minds even more than is obvious.
hi granma
The infrastructure for us is not a priority. The infrastructure for the MIC, global domination, space wars, and wars in general is paramount. People are getting it and are stepping up thanks to social media reporting of police killings. Can it happen on a large enough scale? Just look at the pictures... are we there yet?
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I've had 2 factories die under me
First one busted the machinists' local by moving to SC; the other went offshore. First and last steelworking jobs.
"Either I’m missing something or the warmongers have lost their minds even more than is obvious."
Amerika might seem like an empire, but the empire of the oligarchs has no country. Palaces in Florida, bunkers in NZ, islands in the Caribbean, factories everywhere they can get away with poverty wages and pollution. Nation-based empires are so 19th century. Just as money is now an abstraction that massively moves near lightspeed from one account to another, empires are corporate abstractions too complex for mere amateurs like me to closely follow. No flags, just wealth. Tangible pleb wealth like food, clothing, shelter and medicine just feeds their pile. They use Amerika (and other nations, but Amerika First!) as a mercenary hiring hall, and promise our underclass a way out of misery if they kill or be killed fighting the plutocrat's enemies. And there is no greater wealth-concentrator than the military: use it up, blow it up, spend another fortune to make more.
edit: added quote
I’d say TPTB think they can get ’er done with sanctions, drones,
communications monopolies, monitoring of everyone, censorship of everyone, commandos, assassinations, ethnic division, “individual jihad,” color revolutions, cyber attacks like Stuxnet, and other forms of sabotage. All adding up to what some refer to as fourth-generation warfare, or 4GW.
According to this doctrine, all that heavy industry and manufacturing of planes and ships and tanks and stuff is outdated — old hat, third-generation warfare.
sorry
double post. Having intertube trouble....
I know this is old news
and we all know it here, but it makes me happy and so... apologies for being redundant:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FuEkUiCtWQ]
The above video sort of reminds me of Ms. Frizzle; the cartoon I used to watch with my daughter when she was young.
In case you haven't met Ms. Frizzle, my favorite grade-school science teacher;
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pit3p1iABmg]
I couldn't agree more;
or you could call it the theatre of the absurd. Actually we could just call it what is; a crime.
Thank you, yes it’s a crime
Politicians are criminals. Straight up. Even Bernie to a good degree. And somehow we are supposed to embrace the charade, which makes us complicit in their crimes. Aren’t we getting tired yet? I, for one, am completely burnt out. Stay positive, keep fighting - but nothing changes. Incremental changes, yes, but we don’t have time now. That is my conundrum. But, I do, will keep the cosmic door open, invoking an awakening, a way outta... Could happen. Thx for both vids. Passing them on. Be well, take it easy, but take it to the limit.
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