This discussion between Paul Jay and Abby Martin is worth to be listened to

Abby Martin and Paul Jay - What Should Sanders Do Next?

You should use this link, because there is a transcript of the interview itself.
For those too lazy to make two clicks, here is the youtube video.
[video:https://youtu.be/Rj_-OJDicmQ]
They talk very fast, so for me it's good to read the transcript while listening. But it's a very interesting dispute between the two and wraps around many issues which have been mentioned here in the many stand-alone diaries in the last couple of days.
Enjoy.

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mimi's picture

Let Bernie Be - Democratic Party leaders' efforts to get Sanders to knuckle under are premature and anti-democratic.

Sanders believes that the views of those millions who followed him deserve to be represented in the platform of the party, and that is what he intends to fight for at the convention. If real democracy means anything he is not only entitled to do so without criticism, it is his responsibility. Getting his agenda or parts of it nailed into the platform does not guarantee that it will be followed, but it makes a statement that the nominee can’t simply brush aside.

To that extent, platforms can matter. Even in old-fashioned conventions, before the primaries reduced them to flashy but hollow TV spectaculars, the meetings of the platform committees, could become exciting and meaningful. I have heard and seen some in my own time.
...
Platforms can matter. It is deeply wrong for the Democrats’ presumed “party leaders” to continue their relentless drive to obliterate all traces of “the Bern” that has kindled progressive crowds for these past months. Pressing Sanders to fall in behind Clinton with weeks still to go before the official enthronement smells rankly of the “elections” held in totalitarian states. Dissent has been, and remains, not merely a prerogative but a positive sign of diversity and open-mindedness in a party.

Moyers makes some good comparison to previous conventions in 1848 and the struggles for a civil rights supporting platform.

In 1948, with victory won and the focus on domestic issues, the fireworks were furnished by the Democrats, also meeting in Philadelphia, now with TV cameras bringing the convention to the small but swiftly swelling number of homes equipped with the new, flickering black and white screens. The rest of us stayed glued to our radios and listened as the platform committee’s members wrangled bitterly over a civil rights plank introduced by minority of northern liberals — its uncompromising promises cracking open the door to a new chapter in the nation’s history:

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I definitely agree with Abby. Paul is trying to establish some facts that are a stretch. Saying that Trump is a bellicose as Clinton is extremely weak. Clinton has a proven track record of wrecking countries and killing people. She is the darling of the neocons. It's hard to read Trump, since he tends to be all over the place, but I will take him on his word that he wants to negotiate with world leaders and wants to cooperate to fight ISIS. I also agree strongly with Abby that continuing to vote for the lesser evil pushes the US political center farther and farther to the right. I also disagree that Clinton as president puts a face on party corporatism, thus helping the movement. We had a much stronger movement as anti-Bush than anti-Obama, or anti-Bill Clinton. A bad Republican in power moves the opposition to the Left. A bad Democrat in power tends to make nothing as the argument is that at least the president is a Democrat and we will cover for her/him.

The act of Bernie actively supporting Clinton will create enormous cynicism in the movement and will kill it. Why trust anyone again? As a third party candidate he continues to fight the good fight and to bring the issues into focus, at least with alternative media on the internet. I think that he will get coverage in the MSM, if only because he represents a serious threat to Clinton's coronation. Please do it Bernie. The movement is far more important than the people, and you are the only highly visible voice talking about the values required to build a worthwhile civilization.

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Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.

I think they missed a very important point. Until the left can hurt the DP and embrace the credit for it, the progressive will never have any influence within the DP because it has no power. They look us in the eye and say, "make me". We run home to mommy and vote for them anyway.

Yes, Bernie should run third party with two goals in mind. The first one is to win and put the American people back in charge of their government. The second goal is to gain and wield enough power to make Hillary and the DP pay every time they tell us to drop dead. I've been saying this for years, and I pushed it as far as I could at dailykos without getting strung up. We need to learn from the Tea Party. Any Republican politician that doesn't do as the Tea Party demands soon finds themself out of office.

If we want any power in this party, we have to take it.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

gulfgal98's picture

For some reason, I thought that Abby made that point indirectly when she said that the lesser of two evils is what has turned the Democratic party into a conservative party. I was surprised at how hard Paul Jay argued for electing Clinton.

dk, I have been saying the same thing for years and Kshama Sawant proved it when she challenged a Democratic incumbent from the left.

We need to learn from the Tea Party. Any Republican politician that doesn't do as the Tea Party demands soon finds themself out of office.

And this...

If we want any power in this party, we have to take it.

In the tv show Dallas, my all time favorite line was this.

John Ross 'Jock' Ewing, Sr.: [to Bobby Ewing] If I did give you power then you've got nothing. Nobody gives you power. Real power is something you take.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

should have as a goal making hillary and the Dems lose just to prove we can. I'll have to look again too gg.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

mimi's picture

about Jay Paul's arguments, almost thought that was on purpose and staged, as without him disagreeing, the discussion wouldn't have made much sense. hmmm.

But for right now I am for Abby's side. Will have to listen again.

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Lookout's picture

I caught this today and found it to be very thoughtful. Glad you posted it mimi.

I'll say again it is a long time till the convention next month. Let's see what happens. However it is good to consider options and think ahead.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

elenacarlena's picture

Perhaps then no decisions will be necessary to make!

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

Amanda Matthews's picture

He's going to end up working for Team HillBillary. He's already making his excuses for when he makes the move.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

mimi's picture

I don't know why you say that. Just look what he has buillt with the TRN network.

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I haven't heard so many of the Bernie-hostile Hillbot talking points is such a short span anywhere else on cable. I'm numb!

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Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.

mimi's picture

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