Conservative and neoliberal idea of society conflicts with USA's founding idea

One of the more notorious quotes expressing the neoliberal philosophy is British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, in an interview with Women's Own magazine, October 31, 1987, declaring "there is no such thing as society."

I have argued that modern conservative and neoliberal thinking is a direct repudiation of the ideas on which the United States was established, as a republic. Consider this excerpt from the speech by James Wilson, in the Pennsylvania Ratifying Convention, Saturday, November 24, 1787.

Our wants, imperfections, and weakness... naturally incline us to society; but it is certain, society cannot exist without some restraints. In a state of nature each individual has a right, uncontrolled, to act as his pleasure or his interest may prevail, but it must be observed that this license extends to every individual, and hence the state of nature is rendered insupportable, by the interfering claims and the consequent animosities of men, who are independent of every power and influence but their passions and their will. On the other hand, in entering into the social compact, though the individual parts with a portion of his natural rights, yet it is evident that he gains more by the limitation of the liberty of others, than he loses by the limitation of his own,-so that in truth, the aggregate of liberty is more in society, than it is in a state of nature.

It is then... a fundamental principle of society, that the welfare of the whole shall be pursued and not of a part, and the measures necessary to the good of the community must consequently be binding upon the individuals that compose it...

No doubt conservatives especially will whine that Thatcher's quote is taken out of context. So here it is, in full context, with a couple inquiring observations following.

British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society":

"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

First, is this Thatcher's jeremiad an excellent summation of the conservatives' hostility to the poor, and to welfare programs? If so, then, what the hell are they doing embracing the (anti)social philosophy of a frigging British prime minister? If conservatives are trying to conserve the past (and I do not think they are, and have not been, for a few decades now), then I seem to recall there was this event in the past called the American Revolution, in which USA told the Brits to take a long walk off a short pier.

Second, if you agree with Thatcher that people have become too dependent on government hand-outs, then pray tell me what you propose to do about the tens of millions of your fellow citizens who are going to be unemployed and underemployed by automation and robots in the next few years.

If Wilson is correct, and we as humans are naturally inclined to society, then it seems to me that as our modern industrial economies become better and better able to produce all we need with no more than 20 percent or so of our work force, we are duty bound to do something for the 80 percent in our society who are not needed.

If you believe Thatcher is correct, then, yes, I certainly understand your haste to put the finishing touches on an omni-surveillance state with militarized police forces, and one in every 90 people incarcerated or subject to penal punishment.

Third, if you think of yourself as a socialist, I invite you to think long and hard about whose ideas -- Wilson's or Thatcher's -- are more conducive to socialism.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

Third, if you think of yourself as a socialist, I invite you to think long and hard about whose ideas -- Wilson's or Thatcher's -- are more conducive to socialism.

It's Wilson -- no thinking required.

Thatcher is just another example of the politics of mean, which is typical rightwing fare.

Many laborers and common wage-earning types turned their back to her funeral cortége. And I don't blame them. She sowed meanness, and reaped defiance. And reaps it still from many, myself included.

Bad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

dervish's picture

of the ancient Romans in the late period. There were roving barbarians running around, and at first the Romans wanted nothing to do with them, and thought they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but they soon realized that these guys would pillage Rome if they ignored them.

Soon enough they employed them as mercenaries, or gave them land, or even tribute. Idle, hungry barbarians were a threat to Roman security. Finally they ran out of money and got sacked, repeatedly.

The same would happen to Thatcher's ideal state. Hungry people would be less interested in pulling themselves up by their bootstraps than they would in hanging the rich by theirs. The 1% can ignore society, but society won't ignore them.

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"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."

riverlover's picture

Thatcher had been promoted and never again thought of her specialness except with pride. She and Reagan here. Has anyone remembered that they are deceased? There is no reason to listen to echoes of the past except to remember with bitterness in their cases. And they of limited foresight could not imagine now, US at war with anyone and GB being a lapdog, looming unemployment due to automation, climate warming and human extinction. Forty years ago. Time flies.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Lenzabi's picture

I do recall that in the 1970s there was a call to reverse climate damage from pollution and other forms of destruction by exploitative corporations, Those guys bought the government, and are working still to stop such moves as it hurts their agendas, wallets, and shareholders which is all the care about. That we can make so much yet throw away so much when we could feed/house/clothe all and cover their expenses and still be alright across the planet shows how piss-poor at managing resources the Oligarchs and corporates actually are, they are not sane.

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So long, and thanks for all the fish

snoopydawg's picture

of our government at all levels are on the government's teat. They receive a salary I would kill to get. Plus they get housing allowances (HUD), food per diems (food stamps), many have drivers and nice cars to drive them around, a cushy retirement package for life and so many other perks that we aren't aware of. And guess who pays for it?

Currently, members of congress are eligible for a pension dependent on the member's age at retirement, length of service, and salary. The pension value can be up to 80% of the member's final salary. In 2016, congressional pay was $174,000 per year, which, at an 80% rate, equates to a lifelong pension benefit of $139,200. All benefits are taxpayer-funded.

In addition to their nice retirement package, many of them are millionaires. Anyone remember how they were allowed to accumulate that much money?

Entering 2016, approximately 8% of U.S. households could be classified as millionaires, compared to more than 50% of the members of Congress.

In addition to their millions that many made from insider trading, they also receive social security. And because they made more than us regular joes, their SS payments are much higher than ours. How much more?

Because members of Congress earn far more than the average American citizen, their initial Social Security benefits average more than $30,000 per year compared to just $18,000 for a middle-class retiree.

Congress retirement pay
But way too many of them think that after we pay have paid into social security, Medicare and Medicaid we shouldn't be allowed to retire with dignity and have the services that we paid into.
Yep, that's the irony and hypocrisy of our government.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

gulfgal98's picture

@snoopydawg This is the comment of the day. I am not surprised that it came from you, snoopydawg! Smile

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

snoopydawg's picture

@gulfgal98
I enjoy reading your comments as well as the others here. This all starts with the informative essays that our members write.

This is the message we need to hit them with every damn time they bring up entitlement reform. This message has to get out to the public too, since so many say that they don't want their taxes going to help the poor. Too many people have bought the corporation's propaganda that they create jobs and deserve their tax breaks and subsidies. We call that corporate welfare.
Besides their pay, retirement and perks, how many days do they actually work each week or month?
Congress has just returned from a two week vacation and they will be taking all of August off.
Then there's all the perks they get from lobbyists and special interests groups. And they can fly anywhere in the world on our dime and say they are doing the people's business.
It's no wonder that people who work for their lobbyists masters are so corrupt.

For some reason, season 5 of House of Cards was released on the same day. I have been rewatching it and can't believe how much damage Frank and Claire Underwood can get away with. Yes it's just fiction, but still. It does show how power corrupts absolutely.
I think you wrote that you were watching it? Or was that CTsT?

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

snoopydawg's picture

@snoopydawg
I don't think that anyone on this site thinks that this is a good idea. The mission statement of this website seems pretty clear to me. We stand with the 99 percent of the country.

If you believe Thatcher is correct, then, yes, I certainly understand your haste to put the finishing touches on an omni-surveillance state with militarized police forces, and one in every 90 people incarcerated or subject to penal punishment.

Hopefully Tony will respond to mine and the other comments.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

lotlizard's picture

It used to be accepted that values of honesty, diligence, humility, courtesy, and conscientiousness must be the norm at all levels to make society work.

Nowadays, too many of the “winners” at all levels got to where they are by turning their back on and scorning such values.

One cultural narrative favored by (but not confined to) conservatives and neoliberals says that the rich and powerful don’t need to exemplify good values because (1) hey, they’re rich, and (2) not having to follow the rules is precisely the characteristic that defines them as powerful.

Another cultural narrative widespread among progressives and the Left says that “victims” (of discrimination, oppression, the system, etc.) don’t need to exemplify good values either, because (1) hey, they’re disadvantaged, and (2) the very idea of values, rules, standards, and measuring sticks is discriminatory by definition and such things are all just inventions to justify excluding people.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@lotlizard

Another cultural narrative widespread among progressives and the Left says that “victims” (of discrimination, oppression, the system, etc.) don’t need to exemplify good values either, because (1) hey, they’re disadvantaged, and (2) the very idea of values, rules, standards, and measuring sticks is discriminatory by definition and such things are all just inventions to justify excluding people.

That's not the Left, at least not any Left I know of.

That's more the speed of the neocon/neolib pseudo-progressives found in places like today's Democratic Party.

Your paragraph would make a perfect anthem for TOP, with Hillary Clinton conducting the choir!

Bad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

lotlizard's picture

@thanatokephaloides  
Forming a mob, cornering administrators, professors, and other students, shouting them down, demanding that they abase themselves — that screams “Red Guards” to me. All that’s missing are actual dunce caps marked “white privilege.”

Not really “the Left,” I agree.

Mao’s “Three Rules of Discipline” may not apply, but if the real Left is serious about revolution, how about a code of conduct like the “Eight Points for Attention”?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Rules_of_Discipline_and_Eight_Points...

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@lotlizard

Not really “the Left,” I agree.

Mao’s “Three Rules of Discipline” may not apply, but if the real Left is serious about revolution, how about a code of conduct like the “Eight Points for Attention”?

I like that idea!

Speak politely. Show kindness wherever and as often as possible. Deal honestly. Return what you borrow. Do not damage the livelihoods of innocent people or the crops of farmers. Do no sexual misdeeds.

Let the neolib/neocons act like dicks; but don't be a dick yourself.

People will like you and your cause, and dislike and dishonor them and theirs.

Time-tested over and over again.

Sounds like a winner to me!

Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

@lotlizard

4. The Noble Truth of the Path that leads to Awakening. The path is a paradox. It is a conditioned thing that is said to help you to the unconditioned. Awakening is not "made" by anything: it is not a product of anything including the Buddha's teachings. Awakening, your true nature is already always present. We are just not awake to this reality. Clinging to limitation, and attempts to control the ceaseless flow of phenomena and process obscures our true nature.

The path is a process to help you remove or move beyond the conditioned responses that obscure your true nature. In this sense the Path is ultimately about unlearning rather than learning - another paradox. We learn so we can unlearn and uncover. The Buddha called his teaching a Raft. To cross a turbulent river we may need to build a raft. When built, we single-mindedly and with great energy make our way across. Once across we don't need to cart the raft around with us. In other words don't cling to anything including the teachings. However, make sure you use them before you let them go. It's no use knowing everything about the raft and not getting on. The teachings are tools not dogma. The teachings are Upaya, which means skillful means or expedient method. It is fingers pointing at the moon - don't confuse the finger for the moon.

The Path

1. * Samma-Ditthi — Complete or Perfect Vision, also translated as right view or understanding. Vision of the nature of reality and the path of transformation.

2. Samma-Sankappa — Perfected Emotion or Aspiration, also translated as right thought or attitude. Liberating emotional intelligence in your life and acting from love and compassion. An informed heart and feeling mind that are free to practice letting go.

3. Samma-Vaca — Perfected or whole Speech. Also called right speech. Clear, truthful, uplifting and non-harmful communication.

4. Samma-Kammanta — Integral Action. Also called right action. An ethical foundation for life based on the principle of non-exploitation of oneself and others. The five precepts.

5. Samma-Ajiva — Proper Livelihood. Also called right livelihood. This is a livelihood based on correct action the ethical principal of non-exploitation. The basis of an Ideal society.

6. Samma-Vayama — Complete or Full Effort, Energy or Vitality. Also called right effort or diligence. Consciously directing our life energy to the transformative path of creative and healing action that fosters wholeness. Conscious evolution.

7. Samma-Sati — Complete or Thorough Awareness. Also called "right mindfulness". Developing awareness, "if you hold yourself dear watch yourself well". Levels of Awareness and mindfulness - of things, oneself, feelings, thought, people and Reality.

8. Samma-Samadhi — Full, Integral or Holistic Samadhi. This is often translated as concentration, meditation, absorption or one-pointedness of mind. None of these translations is adequate. Samadhi literally means to be fixed, absorbed in or established at one point, thus the first level of meaning is concentration when the mind is fixed on a single object. The second level of meaning goes further and represents the establishment, not just of the mind, but also of the whole being in various levels or modes of consciousness and awareness. This is Samadhi in the sense of enlightenment or Buddhahood.

Is this what the dems mean when they say "lead with our values"? nope
.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@irishking

Is this what the dems mean when they say "lead with our values"? nope.

emphasis in original

The only "value" most of today's Dems "lead with" is the cash value of their portfolios and those of their paymasters.

The DLC types wouldn't know any real values, Buddhist or not, if they showed up and bit their genitals clean off.

Bad Diablo Bomb

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

detroitmechworks's picture

War beat that out of me.

It also made me a pacifist.

I believe in where I live. I love Portland, and the people here. I want to toss the rich assholes out and enjoy our peasant culture, or what remains of it at any rate. It is after all, the little things that matter.

I honestly no longer care how the MSM likes to deride us as racists, or "So White" or any other descriptor they want to in order to change our self image.

I refuse to bow to what they say. I know my heart, they do not. Continue screaming, MSM, about how we must change things to suit your whims. It matters not to me.

I expect to do without. I've done it for years, and can do it easily. The threats of deprivation mean little when you know you can survive.

My health and my children are the only reason I am not a revolutionary. Threaten either one of those, and I will become one. Fair warning.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

PriceRip's picture

          The earliest in habitants of the MidWest tended to be migratory. When the later immigrants arrived they saw wide-open unoccupied spaces. The two groups had very little common references with which to truly understand what was about to happen.

          Very wealth individuals have no understanding of what it means to have no clear expectation of having enough to survive the next few days. The poor tend to think they have no ability to successfully effect change for the better. I wonder what history will have to say about the next few decades.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@PriceRip

Very wealthy individuals have no understanding of what it means to have no clear expectation of having enough to survive the next few days. The poor tend to think they have no ability to successfully effect change for the better.

spelling corrected

And of these two, the latter is factually correct.

Bad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

PriceRip's picture

@thanatokephaloides

          It took me way tooo loooooog to spot the spelling error. Thanks for catching same, I always appreciate reality checkups.

          For much too long I have been loading a U-Haul truck. Tomorrow we start our 1500 mile trek to the west with the final load of too much stuff. Books, can one actually have too many books?

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Lily O Lady's picture

@PriceRip

disagrees, though. I have my books. He has the old BMW that has been sitting in our garage for the last 20 years.

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

thanatokephaloides's picture

@PriceRip

It took me way tooo loooooog to spot the spelling error. Thanks for catching same, I always appreciate reality checkups.

No problem -- and certainly, no offense intended!! Smile

Being a natural speller can be as much a curse as a blessing. It's gotten me in trouble before!

For much too long I have been loading a U-Haul truck. Tomorrow we start our 1500 mile trek to the west with the final load of too much stuff. Books, can one actually have too many books?

With what I suspect of your book load, you should be loading a boxcar, not a U-Haul. Wink

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

PriceRip's picture

@thanatokephaloides

          But mine are light reading, quarks, electrons, photons, and lots of geometry. My wife is to blame, she is the polymath of the family with geology, history, geography, web and graphic design, and origami. Oh, and politics, I just fake it, she's to blame for that side of our library.

          When y'all write stuff, I have to ask her, "Who the hell is [fill in the blank] and what did they say about [fill in the blank] on [fill in the date and place].

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@PriceRip

"in habitants"

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