Conscience in the 2016 Election
From a comment on Big Al's How Should I Vote for President that got buried at the end and a response to the exchanges on Political Stockholm Syndrome.
This is truly the most unique, bizarre election I've experienced here.
It does gladden the heart immensely to see so many people seeing through the kabuki theatre of Democrats & Republicans. Much more, and more passionately than even 2000.
As an Irish socialist, growing up while the Troubles raged 40 miles to the north, I've always been critical of empire. First the British soon thereafter the American & Soviet empires. My first political memories are the hunger strikers in 81 and supporting the Sandinistas (great coffee!). So my opinion of the Dem/Rep has always been tweedle-dee-dum/tweedle-dee-dee with the Dems playing kabuki of being slightly less worse than Reps.
However, ironically, this year there is an American First, nativist, racist, xenophobic, literally a fascist as the GOP nominee. That is a big red line for me. Being Irish and traveling through the UK I get a small insight into what it is like to be a minority in this country. And socialists fight fascists, it's what we do. Whether it's 1920s street battles in Germany, The Battle of Cable Street. When you are faced with fascism you defeat it or you die. It is a very simple equation. You can negotiate, reason with sociopaths, bring pressure to bear. Saddam offered to leave Iraq in 2003 if he could take $60 billion. You cannot with fascists. The only thing they understand is the fist in the face and the boot in the bollox.
I did not vote for Obama (retro immunity telcos) either time, did not vote for Kerry (AUMF) and I wasn't a citizen for the 2k cluster but I was on board with the Nader/Green party plan of aiming for 5% to get funding but bowing out in swing states to prevent the GOP getting in.
This election all options are shit. There is no point getting angry at someone for not agreeing to go along with your shit option. And more importantly, this cycle awoke many, many that feel compelled in the face of fascism to buy into the Lesser of Two Evils one last time. But believe, it is one last time.
So if you are actually serious (and I know you are). The Green party in the US is totally fucked, it's not the vehicle. But there is great hope because of these figures (2014 ish, some rounding):
Voting Age Population: 240 million
Registered: 142 million
Turnout: 83 million (congressional) and 120 million (presidential)
There are 90 to 100 million unregistered voters, studies over the decades show there's about 20% to 30% of the total US VAP that doesn't bother to participate because there is no party left enough for them. We build a successful third party by identifying those on the left unregistered and then activating them. In a first-past-the-post election we only need 50 million voters to defeat both the Dems and Reps for Prez/Senate/House/State.
I do enjoy the irony of getting reamed for buying in to the LoTE for the first time since I came here 
Fortunately I'm in CA and have the luxury of voting 3rd party for every office, plus some great ballot measures. It's worth the prices of the Bay Area not to have to hate myself and vote for HRC. So people, don't hate those that are holding their noses, they hate themselves already and will be our best allies in the fight.
Comments
"Green party in the US is totally fucked". Really?!
Do tell. I know it ain't perfect, but what exactly makes it "totally fucked"
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
It Is Easier to Destroy Something Than To Build It.
The problem with the Greens, and Progressive politics in general, is that it only takes a few bad actors to sabotage the whole endeavor.
All they have to do is throw a well developed monkey wrench into a sensitive spot, and the developing machine breaks apart.
That is a major problem with the Greens, IMO. One bad actor or one provocateur can ruin years of work.
This will be the case for any progressive institution that gains traction because we are trying to build something.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
So who did this: "sabotage the whole endeavor"
YOu preemptively dismiss the Greens because some person (to be named later) will probably fuck up the party?
That is some vague bullshit. C'mon, spell it out for me -- because I'm obviously a moran for not seeing it. Hahahaha.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
It's not important...
who did it, just take it on faith that someone did it, and let it go at that. Meaning that it's all totally fucked up, wrecked beyond any hope of redemption, a smoldering ruin resting on top of a toxic dung heap. Nothing for it, then, but to roll up our sleeves and start all over again from scratch. The only thing that terrifies me is the prospect that some unknown someone might fuck it up next time too. In fact, conceivably this could turn out to be an ongoing problem.
inactive account
COINTELPRO writ large
You are not being cynical or conspiratorial enough. The govt in this country has persecuted the left for centuries. Molly Maguires & the Pinkertons. Breaking up strikes with the US military.
Since WW2 the US police & intelligence services have infiltrated and destroyed every political organisation that wasn't the Dems/Reps and I'm not even sure about that.
Don't worry. Your Gal Pal Hellery will win.
There are 100 million lemmings that will follow the stampede off the cliff.
Not for me thank you. Good day.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
I Did Nothing Of the Sort...
I didn't dismiss the green party, let alone preemptively.
I mentioned how hard it is to build something that harms corporate profits. And how easy it is to plant a saboteur/provocateur or to co-opt or short circuit the organization.
Look at Bernie. He was real and look how he was taken down -- saboteurs, fear, and co-option, I believe played significant roles.
It's easy to kneecap or ruin an institution that tries to build something.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
we have this discussion often here at home
it's the problem with the concept of an inclusive solution. It makes it possible for those bad actors to infiltrate, weaken, pervert the original idea. On the other hand, keeping it small lessens any possible impact.
There have been some articles on here
that speak to some of the institutional problems of the Green Party US.
But regardless of the specific US problems because the various Green parties the world over are not class based parties they are always taken over by neoliberals whenever they attain any political power (Ireland & Germany for examples).
So no proof points then
Just because you have a hunch. Okaaaaaaaay.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
How many candidates for senate?
For the house?
For state legislatures?
For governors?
For mayors?
For city councillors?
Nearly none because it is smoke and mirrors and BS.
I've seen what happened in Ireland & Germany, the Green party is a complete waste of time even when it is organised properly, which it most certainly is not here in the US. It seems to have a lot of people that discourage people from joining and getting things done. Perhaps you're one of them.
Consensus Is Tough Politics. nt
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
It is alright.
There's a great story from the Congo when the UN was introducing the concept of democracy and majority rule. The locals were greatly puzzled as their tradition was to spend two or three days with everyone talking until a consensus emerged.
Better system alright than 50%+1 victories.
What WOULD work?
So Gendjinn, how do we plan for a party that won't get corrupted? Any ideas? Have you seen anything that is working?
Asking the easy frigging questions!
Stross's piece on the Beige Dictatorship captures my position on representative democracy. So ultimately I would like to move to direct democracy.
The current electoral system in the US of single seat constituencies, first past the post voting system and the ratio between voters and representatives are all designed to maintain an oligarchy. It is what the founders wanted to happen and they were quite successful. So undoing all those - multi-seat, STV, 50k voters per representative (try bribing 4,500 congress critters!) that makes Rep Democracy much better but still problematic.
Big projects. I think pulling as hard as possible on the institutional racism, BLM area in society has the potential to unravel the gordion knot of our enemies. It breaks the power of the police and state. It empowers and activates people. We can use that to break through to the unregistered and activate them. It's not only the right thing to fight for, it's a great way to make large progress on the political front too.
Bodycams on politicians. Automatic removal from office for failing to keep logged videos accurate, up to date and any meeting that is not personal that is not videoed.
I would look to the lessons that Provisional Sinn Fein had to learn in the last 50 years. Also what to expect in the way of dirty tricks and push back from the establishment.
Like everything in this world worth having, it's going to be hard work to win, very hard work. But sure, look where we were 200 years ago, 400 years ago. We just got to keeping pushing the boulder up the hill.
Trump Declares War On GOP
One bad actor? Like this?
And it gets better!
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/10/11/donald-...
How could anyone possibly be more destructive to the Green Party than Trump has been to the GOP and Hillary has been to the Demicrats?
"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn
Jimmy Dore excellent video of Ryan getting booed
at a Repub rally after he announced he would no longer campaign for Trump.
What I find funniest is all these self-righteous scumbag politicians finally drawing a line at the word 'pussy'. They are all morally bankrupt just like Trump. Only difference is they know how to control their mouths.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
I like to think Bernie would have done the same thing
…if he had overthrown the Democratic Party Bosses.
I found that hopeful, the shackles thing. Because Trump has been parroting dumb Republican dogma since he won the Primaries. Nothing like the economic and foreign policy positions he described at his rallies.
Bernie will take his shackles off after the election, I hope.
Another Trump tweet today:
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Why in the hell
should anyone with a brain in there head listen to Bernie after his disgusting display of kissing the Democratic ring.Most progressive platform ever... Please Pluto don't give me they beat him up malarkey I keep hearing. I just have had it with any pol (all of them) who touts the Clinton's and pumps the fear of their dear pal Trump.
*I* believe that they intimidated him--as you know
but that doesn't mean I'd *listen* to him. Why the hell would that follow? I'm sincerely confused.
We seem to have no concept of a person being compromised. I find that a much more useful frame under conditions like these than figuring out whether the person's motives are good or evil, whether they're a fraud or a victim, etc.
The great thing about the "compromised" frame is that it makes no conclusion & passes no judgement on intent, morality, etc.; it just says: OK, our enemies have gotten to this person one way or another, and they can no longer be trusted. Do damage control if necessary, and move on to the next thing.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
threatened or not, we can ignore him
he's putting out stupid stuff. If he'd acted like this in the primary season he'd have lost New Hampshire and the race would have been over quickly.
Fracking? It's ok!
Hillary and Debbie rigged the primaries? It's ok!
The Russians!
Progressive platform!
Personally I don't think he was threatened but it doesn't matter. Whatever reason he has for acting like he's...I dunno...Chuck Schumer (or any other shameless liar) he's now so far off the mark that I'd be surprised if anyone's listening to him.
Totally agree.
It doesn't matter. We have to move on.
If, someday, he published some kind of tell-all book, I'd read it, but that's about it. It's not relevant now.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Only this week I had a second thought on that
Once Sanders endorsed Clinton I stopped listening to him. But then last week when the Wall St speeches were leaked (FU Assange for not releasing in the primaries) his statement was that he supported the platform and listed three high priority items that HRC had committed to. That he expected those to be delivered.
Then I wondered if he had a plan to set her up, knowing she would break her promises and the left would have that to primary her on in 2020. If she did keep her promises out of fear, he gets some important items done. So I'm keeping an eye out for that, regardless that statement of his will be of use to us in 2020.
Don't agree on this one...
Shaharazade, was the Bernie momentum due to the man or to the message?
If it was the persona we were attracted to, then our devotion will die out as soon as he is out of our public view.
However, if it was the message that drew us into the Bernie campaign, then I say that the movement is alive in all of us that supported it, and we are just gathering our energies for the next level of outpouring of it!
The man ran for office and [unfairly] lost. The message became a campaign agenda, then became the DNC party platform, and who knows what next.
Bernie might be history, but his message surely is not!!
It's just a thought experiment, shah
I don't have a dog in this hunt. I'm comparing and matching human behaviors. I look for parity and insert it when it might be effective. In this case, I'm comparing the expectations of supporters of Outsider candidates.
Now, the business about "he was threatened" — I've not entertained that. Not because I don't believe it but because it is so ubiquitous. Clearly, the NSA has transcripts and recordings of every word ever uttered by every senator or representative or president who temporarily passes though government. These include the most private communications of their lives. This information is in the hands of the highest authorities in the permanent Federal government — positions they have occupied for decades, without oversight. These are the folks who generate all top secret documents.
Without getting didactic about it, anyone elected to office can be compromised at any time, if necessary, by the permanent government, neocons all. That's why the government itself cannot be changed from the inside.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
I basically agree!
I think there are levels of threat, of course, and some who threaten are worse than others, probably, but yeah, I think most people who get into the government can be brought into line by what you rightly call the permanent govt.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Popcorn futures sure were a wise investment!
Speaking of bowls you gotta try Spliffin's Tangie vape.
100 million unregistered voters. That's certainly something
to work with. A tough row to hoe though. I suppose if there every was a good time for a third party surge, now would be it.
It truly is, but it beats the alternatives!
The change is in the air, and it's global. You can smell it. You can taste the electricity in the air. It's times like these that people of good intent have to push hardest against the wheel of destiny, to ensure it falls into a virtuous track because it can so easily fall into the malevolent.
Am in aggreement
with your statement:
Am doubling down on that notion and believe the electoral process is just so much theater perpetuated by the oligarchy to keep that small percentage of the voting age public feeling "engaged" and relevant. It also keeps us focused on bickering with each other over which of the LoTE (Lesser of Two Evils) is the right choice. The real answer is that we need to come up with a method to take over and replace the dominant two party system. Am I as bitter as this sounds? No, I'm pissed off and sickened, and also am encouraged that there seem to be more people questioning the oligarchy and its processes.
You are fortunate to be in an area where there are "choices". Where I now live, in Idaho, the dominant, down-ballot conservative Republicans often don't even run opposed - there are few choices in the charade. Having worked in private industry, for city, county and federal entities (including law enforcement) through my 65 years, I've seen nothing but corruption, nepotism and mis-management at every level. Consistent proof the shit floats. Is it any surprise that our political system is also corrupt theatrical farce? Now, Oligarchy's greed openly rules and its vampiric method needs to be stopped, further brought to light and staked through the heart. I have no idea how other than finding a way to ignite, activate and organize the huge number of disenfranchised non-voters alongside those collective nose-holding participants. I think Bernie's campaign was a fleeting example that that is possible - which also infuriated and galvanized the PTB to subvert it.
On that happy note, I am ironically going to vote for Jill Stein (I like what she has to say (and has actively done), though I believe the Green Party is fucked because our voting structure is again, Farcical Political Theater staged by the Oligarchy. Locally, my vote for her is simply a protest of them, not an endorsement of their game and it riles up the local fundamentaist/dominionist political hacks - a wee little fuck you!
People need to realize that the America we want to believe is functional just doesn't exist anymore and it is going to take an active revolution to re-create it as the republic it was meant to be.
Bobby Sands and the hunger strikers are not forgotten. Perhaps what we who want to overthrow the Oligarchy need to do is wage a different kind of hunger strike and starve the capitalist system by stopping buying Shit for a while as best we can - though that would likely result in many more lost jobs. What do I know?
Thank you for your essay.
"So it goes."
Kurt Vonnegut
ranked choice voting is the
ranked choice voting is the way out, imo.
check Green Party success in Australia.
That and ending representative democracy
They are only bought off. We have the technology to go to direct democracy.
Yes!
Sanders killed any possibility of a successful 3rd party run. 2020 is a whole new ballgame.
I'm spending my time between then and now to do everything I can to activate those lefties that have wandered off (for sanity and happiness and who can blame them!).
Hell, if we can get Tulsi Gabbard to primary Clinton in 2020....
Would love to see Tulsi in the white house! /nt
Dem establishment would refuse to raise one red cent for Tulsi
just as they did last February.
https://twitter.com/EmmaVigeland/status/785506154164215808/photo/1
— via Jackpine Radicals
Tulsi Gabbard strongarmed by Clinton machine
Bernie didn't need 'em
And good. Please help us make it very clear who the traitors are. Please enter the spotlight!
Direct democracy
is certainly the way of a republic, though the challenge is to find a way of preventing that being corrupted - restoring the Voting Rights Act, providing adequate polling places for every community and making sure that rolls aren't continually purged are a start.
Tulsi Gabbard is a gem. Am in the process of moving to Hawaii and hope to work for campaign.
"So it goes."
Kurt Vonnegut
Not sure Jill Stein is exactly "shit."
At least not in the same sense as the others.
If she's shit at all, it's because 68% of the population doesn't know who she is.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
No. She most certainly is not.
Jill Stein is the best of a bad lot. But that she can't win is the shit part of the option.
I'm tempted to write myself in so I can bore the grandkids with stories of the time I ran for president. But I'll probably go Stein.
I'm worried.
It worries me that you identify Trump as a fascist but don't do the same for Hillary Clinton. While she has a carefully cultivated veneer of faux liberalism, her personality is vindictive and authoritarian. You're either with her or against her, and those against her will feel her wrath if we have the misfortune of her becoming president. If you think Obama was bad with how he marginalized the progressive wing and smashed the Occupy movement, just wait until Fraulein Clinton ascends to the throne.
There is a nativist/xenophobia in fascism
that is not present in Clinton.
Clinton is a neoliberal in the vein of Bill Clinton & Tony Blair. She'll slaughter her millions the "good way" by starving them in sanctions like her husband, or bombing them from the air like Obama.
But she is nowhere near a fascist, no matter how malevolent, malignant and evil she and her actions are.
And Using Mussolini's Definition?
Hillary is clearly a corporatist, which Mussolini is attributed as defining as the combination of state and financial power. Anyone getting $250k for maybe an hour's "work" is clearly on the payroll of financial power, selling her access to state power to "earn" it.
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
By that definition the entire US is fascist.
While there is truth to that it's hyperbole.
Being a neoliberal is not the same thing as being a fascist. There is more to it than the state and capital working hand in hand. There is a genocidal xenophobia with fascism, a nativist, racist, xenophobia. One that is clearly found in Trump and his supporters but not in Clinton.
As far as I'm concerned
all the candidates I saw except Sanders were fascist.
Trump, like I said, is trending more toward Nazism.
EDIT: all the *major party* candidates I saw.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I thought about your comment long and hard before responding.
Perhaps you're right in that Clinton herself is not a fascist. However, I believe the atmosphere she creates and encourages in her supporters fits the definition. The hysteria surrounding Russia is a prime example. I've linked an Intercept article below detailing how a Clinton sycophant turned a small attribution error into a crusade against Wikileaks, Russia and Donald Trump. I'm surprised you don't consider the Clinton campaign's use of Russia as scapegoat to be xenophobia, which is defined as 'intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries'.
In the Democratic Echo Chamber, Inconvenient Truths Are Recast as Putin Plots
I feel that we agree and are getting tripped on words
and perhaps emotions.
Trump trips the strongman, fascist alarm bells in me. I don't get the same from Clinton.
This in no way diminishes my conviction that she is evil, more evil than I feel Trump is. But with Fascism, when it is enabled, you enable it's supporters - see rise in racist crimes post-Brexit. And I have cousins that were "half-paki" that went through that shite in London in the 60s/70s, so I'm sensitized further.
I do not want to in any way be defending Clinton. She is going to continue the neoliberal policies of economic and environmental destruction that will destroy the biosphere on this planet. She is a sociopath. She isn't tattooing folks, and lining them up in showers or digging mass graves to fill with the bodies of the machine gunned. I just don't see her as Mussolini, Hitler or Franco. She's a Mitt Romney, Reagan type of evil, you can reason with that evil, you can never reason with Fascism.
You are correct about scapegoating Russia, but as I said in my previous comment, if Clinton is fascist then every single president back to Truman has been one. Which I'm fine with but previously Americans have gotten all bent out of shape when I have made such criticisms.
Really what I want to get at is that let's save our ammo for the enemy. It is not those that feel that have to hold their nose one last time for Clinton to defeat Trump. I do not want to waste any energy fighting amongst ourselves, I've seen how easily the state forces can use them to cause feuds (Official & Provisional IRAs in the early 70s all caused by British military intelligence we now know.)
I'm with neoconned and edg
There's corporatist fascism, like Mussolini described, and then there's Nazism, which relies more heavily on xenophobia and racism. Hillary is the former; Trump trends toward the latter.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Degrees of evil
We all agree here that Clinton is evil. We are all bringing our own life experiences and history to the conversation about how evil is she precisely?
Which is a fine conversation over beers but not one I'm really passionate about.
To the degree that neoliberalism is fascist, I'd be in agreement with you.
I'm also in California
And seeing as how Trump is 33 points behind Clinton according to the latest Ipsos poll, voting for anybody else isn't going to get that fascist Trump in. I grew up here and the very first time I registered in 1972, it was as a member of the Peace and Freedom Party. That party is still on the ballot -- it's become a club for geriatric progressives that literally does nothing. I've been an independent since the 2000 elections after belonging to many different parties.
I do feel as though the Greens had their time in the sun in the 1990s. They ran lots of candidates for local and statewide offices, they were in the forefront of environmental politics. But now they've become mostly a Hail Mary protest-vote vehicle. It's been 250 years since a new party became successful in this country -- one of the shortcomings of a winner-take-all electoral system.
It's a great state, it truly is and it can be better
It's not been quite 250 years but it's been a good long time.
Right now we are seeing the death of the GOP and with the Dems sprinting rightward we have an opening for a class based party to move in and fix the problems.
Every single time I feel like giving up hope I think of Tom Barry during the War of Independence, defeating superior British forces with 4 or 5 bullets per man, time and time again. Or Galaxy Quest - never quit, never surrender!
LOL
I should have written 150 years. When the Republicans came.
I wondered, thank god for the edit button!
Hillary is every bit as racist, xenophobic, etc. as Trump
She is simply more hypocritical about it. I've been posting a series about it. I just haven't yet had the heart to tackle her racist, xenophobic Presidential campaign against Obama which, among other things, started the birther stuff that Taitz and Trump took up, so I've been writer's blocked since part four. http://caucus99percent.com/content/hillary-thy-name-part-four
So, if this were really so, you would not vote for Hillary either.
If you vote for Hillary, what you will really be voting for is a bigot who has been trained by Democratic politicians and handlers since she met Bill in law school--and still hasn't been able to hide her bigotry completely. Her North Star is not even women, because she has laughed about re-victimizing a young rape victim, but her personal ambition. And you will not be drawing your red line at bigotry or the lesser evil at all, but at who is sneakier about bigotry and evil.
I don't see Hillary as the lesser of two evils AT ALL, just the more insidious. For reasons I have posted many times before related to the DLC, long term, she will be far more damaging to the country than Trump.
Also, if, come late October, the polls in your state are showing that either Hillary or Trump will take your state on election, your vote for Hillary will be useless anyway.
As far as the Green Party being fucked (and I'm not clear what what that means to you), we have five choices this time: Trump and Hillary, a vote for either of whom reinforces the duopoly; Johnson, Stein and none of the above. Trump or Hillary, and probably the greater evil, Hillary, will win, but, is that a reason to use your one vote for President to endorse either of them?
A vote for Stein or Johnson, will at least put the duopoly on notice that neither of them is good, or even less evil and Americans may stop rewarding evil with their votes. The Libertarian Party, however, does not now seem to need your vote to hit 5%, which will give it automatic ballot access in 2020. The Green Party does. Therefore, it seems to me that the most good a vote for POTUS can do in 2020 is to try to get the Greens automatic ballot access in 2020--and not because the Greens are a perfect party but because the duopoly needs to get a message, specially Democrats. More on this subject here: http://caucus99percent.com/content/word-about-voting-november-okay-many-...
If Hillary is not xenophobic...
why the hell is she leading us to the brink of war with Russia based on lies, innuendo and silly speculation?
Suppose someone like Aaron Swartz were involved with Wikileaks
https://infogalactic.com/info/Aaron_Swartz
Or what if there were rumors Israelis were involved, as with the Stuxnet virus?
Would the Clinton campaign be casting innuendos about “Jewish hackers”? Would Donna Brazile be talking about not opening emails “postmarked from Israel”?
What is it about (non-Jewish) Russians that makes them fair game?
Fifty years of Cold War!
The chickenhawks in the MIC miss that time and desperately want it back, so they can mantle their feathers and talk tough without having to do anything (other than rake in all that lovely lovely Defense moolah).
Dissing Jews/Israel is an even more lethal third rail in US politics than messing with Medicare or Social Security - it's so Not Done that anyone who puts their foot in that particular cowpie will get jumped on hard and fast. (There's nearly 2000 years of gruesome history and well-earned guilt complex behind that reaction. You can look it up.)
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Remember in the 90s how they pivoted to Islam?
I felt insane pointing it out to people and getting laughed at for being a conspiracy theorist.
But then the 90s really were a good time and who wants to listen to the party poopers?
Obama started it with TTP
The grand encirclement of Russia & China by the PNAC crew.
It is a big scary problem we have to fight to defeat. Defunding the military is our best hope and we need that money for climate change.
Trump might be a fascist,
if you say so, but he is an incompetent one. Where is his cadre of followers? His armed paramilitaries? His ideology? He has none of the above; the Rs are running away from him as fast as they can and the military has already made it known, discreetly, that they won't necessarily take orders from him. T-rumpus reminds me of some of the more comical third world dictators who have arisen from time to time.
Mme. C., OTOH, is seriously bad news. She leaves chaos and destruction behind her wherever she goes. She is quite willing to provoke war with Russia so as to live out her fantasy of being Winnie Clinton, the great war president. She seems to me to be consumed with bloodlust and ambition.
You saw what happened at the Nevada State Convention, I suppose? That is a foretaste of what we are in for after she is elected. Every swelled-headed specimen of terminally stupid officialdom will be emboldened to exert power and authority any way they can. The lamentable lineup of Demfem Hillarybots running for congress, Myers, McGinty, et al, are a pack of stuffed blazers, ready to vote on command for whatever folly the WH demands. Nothing, but nothing, penetrates the self satisfied stupidity of the Hillbots; I think they must all be dreaming of lovely new programs of which they get to be director.
The way I see it is that the only hope we have now is to put the fear of God into Congress and the lower ranks of federal officials. I suggest, anyone who has any contact with R or D local party chairmen, make it known in no uncertain terms what you think of their nominee. I am hoping for a large enough vote for Greens, Libertarians and independents to make the congress understand that rubberstamping WH proposals might not be a smart career move.
I wonder if it isn't time to revive the fine old practice of burning in effigy? November is the month for harvest festivals.
Mary Bennett
Incompetent vs Competent
I've thought about that a Competent Lesser Evil Clinton vs an Incompetent Greater Evil Trump. Assuming that the greater/lesser is true.
Tried working it through and it is a really tough one alright. For me a very big piece of it is how a Trump victory would empower the 45% of the country supporting him in the way the Brexit "victory" for the UKIP resulted in a sustained increase in racially motivated crimes. Or all the kids that Clinton will bomb in the Middle East and beyond? They are all shit choices and we are all trying to do the best we can. I do not want to fight amongst ourselves. I want to save our energy for the real enemies in the Democratic and Republican parties. Remember the People's Front of Judea are for the liberation of Judea too!
Some folks angrily told us, gendjinn,
during the primaries about how they had the right to vote in their own interests. If they can, I can. I have more to fear from a Clinton presidency than I do from a Trump one, even factoring in his aroused following. I have been dealing with the Trumpist types all my life. It ain't easy or fun, but... there are ways.
The Clintonista salarycrats, on the other hand, OMG. Once social workers, or CPS or any other of a thousand mini tin gods get their claws into you, watch out! I have found that the only way to deal with minor officialdom, as in getting them OUT of your life, is to get someone on your side who outranks them. Beings as I am exactly the kind of self-reliant, non-spending, non-joining unfashionable, free thinking, sewing, mending, gardening bookworm type that HC and her cohort hate the most, even more than they might hate minorities, Catholics and Republicans, it is in my own best interest to cast a vote which might help undermine both major parties.
Besides that, we know Clinton is likely to start WWIII. I don't want to be having to explain to some truth and reconciliation committee of Russians or Chinese why I voted for her. Nor do I want to have to explain it to St. Peter after my death. I have enough on my conscience already.
As for alleged attacks on migrants post Brexit--can you provide links?--while I don't condone violence, I also don't condone moving uninvited into someone else's home.
Mary Bennett
Oh they certainly did and your sentiment
has been ringing in my ears ever since. If you won't vote for my issues in the primary, why should I vote for your issues in the general election?
The most noxious formulation was the Bernie Bro racist/misogynist. The vocal crew on DailyKoch arguing that Clintons supposed superiority on racial/feminist issues was of primary importance and all this wealth inequality was white privilege. So they voted their best interests in the primary and are now insisting that everyone else continue to vote their interests and against their own, or they are bad, bad people.
Just google increase racist attacks post brexit and you'll find tonnes of commentary. The UKIPers and the Tories are basically the Tea Party & Republican party. What you see Trump supporters doing, you see 'kippers doing.
There's a "mob mentality"
There's a "mob mentality" that I'm seeing now from the mainstream of people who say they're going to vote for Hillary, which I find truly disturbing.
It's one thing to say, "I have reservations about Hillary and the Dems, but I'm going to vote for her because I think she's the lesser of two evils, and Trump really scares me." I don't agree with that decision, but at least it's a thoughtful position, in which the person acknowledges that we've got problems no matter who becomes POTUS.
What I'm seeing a lot of now, however, even from people who were previously not Hillary supporters, is: "Don't ask questions! Don't say anything negative about Hillary! Don't talk about climate change, or war, or the TPP, or anything else! Shut up and get into line ... or else."
Some of them are even saying things like, "What do you mean, America's in decline? America's doing great! All of the statistics show it!" This, from people you thought were reasonable and intelligent.
It goes beyond people's consciences telling them that the US cannot have a Trump presidency because he's a xenophobe, racist, and sexist, not to mention a buffoon. I don't discount those assessments, but I am still capable of maintaining rational, independent thought. I'm not gathering together with my neighbors carrying pitchforks, going after anyone who doesn't shut up and fall into line against Trump. (Maybe a little hyperbole, but as I sense what's going on in the US, it feels like this to me.)
It's like a whole huge swath of the American populace has gone into Stepford mode. Or maybe taken over by the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, in which everyone who's still "real" has to hide and be very careful so as not to alert the pod people. I find that very disturbing. It makes me wonder what's going to happen after the election.
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
It was precisely the same with Obama
Remember eleventy-dimensional chess where all we needed to do was shut up and clap louder?
The same line was used by the Clintons in 94,96,98. It's not uniquely American either.
"It makes me wonder what's going to happen after the election."
Change. Whether that will ultimately be good or bad is up in the air. Assuredly a mix of both, but which one wins.....
Yes, change
is in the air and I think the enthusiastic crowds that Bernie drew were evidence that impetus for change is building. I don't believe any of the polls that show rousing numbers of support for either of the major party candidates. It would be wonderful if third party votes could outnumber votes for Trump or Hellery, but the process itself is so corrupted we'd probably never see that result even if it was a reality - Bernie was effectively shut out.
Am trying to find some solace in this disastrous election that either of the two beasts if elected will push the populace closer to rock bottom when people will be fed up enough for revolt.
"So it goes."
Kurt Vonnegut
There's 100 million that don't bother to register
In a 3-way race between Dem, Rep & a new Prog parties there is a untapped, winning plurality to be tapped.
Looking back through history, that's how every revolution succeeded.
The challenge
is finding a way to coordinate, organize and rally - Bernie gave us a model. I hope this election will provide the fuel for the beginnings of real action.
"So it goes."
Kurt Vonnegut
Don't have to tell the Irish
400 years of failed revolts until one succeeded.
Our job is get up every day and swing as hard as we can for the fences. Then do it all over again tomorrow.
That's for sure
When I was there in the '80s the spirit felt absolutely palpable.
"So it goes."
Kurt Vonnegut
Great essay
And even better discussion thread
edited to include... the civilized nature of the debate here is heartening at a time when many are afraid to discuss their feelings on this election for fear of retribution
LoTE has never influenced me previously
You know the share the plate of cookies experiment with kids, where one kid divides the cookies into two piles and the other kid gets to decide whether or not to accept the allocation or reject it and neither get any cookies? I'm the kid that only accepted even splits. And could reject unfair splits all day without a trace of remorse.
This cycle, with Trump and his supporters. This is the first time I've ever felt its clammy grip, and only in the last two to four weeks.
Raining on the Greens
is easy, coming up with a workable plan is hard. You miss some obvious signs coming down the pike that suggest you can't see what's in front of your nose.
1. True progressives learned, thanks Bernie, that small donations from many enthusiastic voters can accomplish much. The Greens have been limping along for years, way underfunded and leaderless. Jill is a savvy politician.
2. Demographics are in our favor. Millennials, independents, millions of voters who now know that politicians don't care one whit about them. Many millions of people who still haven't recovered from the Great Recession know now that they never will.
3. WikiLeaks. Keep those emails coming. The MSM is in its death knell and they no longer even pretend to be impartial. I give most of them five years, at the most. Plus, there's a growing cadre of social media savvy independent journos who will step up to the plate.
4. The Clinton Third Way will once again rear its ugly head, and Millennials, minorities, and liberal women will be horrified at what they voted for versus what they got.
5. Being part of Bernie's "sisters and brothers" felt good. It reminded us what true democracy can feel like.
Replied to you in the 4:30pm comment below.
Agreed, easy to critique, hard to build.
I've seen how the Green party vehicle is easily sidelined by neoliberals in two other polities - Ireland & Germany.
Climate change is the definitive challenge of our times but a party not rooted in a class perspective is of little interest to me, because it will always be suborned.
A progressive alliance uniting DSA/WFP/GP/BLM, for example would be much more interesting because it unites my three primary political goals - Climate, Wealth Inequality, Discrimination.
It's worth giving the electoral process one more shot, but I don't see progressives being allowed to take office and make changes to the MIIC. JFK was shot when he tried.