Blue Republic Gives Up Calling Out BLM
Submitted by Blue Republic on Sun, 06/21/2020 - 8:05am
So.
Having been attempting in various posts to portray BLM as astroturf controlled opposition, created and manipulated by .1% billionaires and the Deep State to exacerbate racial tensions as part of a broader plan to implement in your face authoritarian rule...
I think I may as well give up. Am I ready to take a knee? Shell out for reparations? Grovel and beg forgiveness for my whiteness?
Well, no.
It's just that it seems that the stuff I have been attempting to explicate about BLM has been done, and well done, years ago - and there ain't much much point in re-inventing the wheel.
So, Happy Solstice, I'll just turn you over to Lord Jamar:
(Nov. 2016)
Comments
An idea versus an organized group?
Personally I could care less if there is an organized group called Black Lives Matter just the same as I could care less if there is an organized group called Antifa. What is important to me is the idea that black lives DO matter or that Fascism is something we should all be concerned about. I support both of these ideas.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Yes, but if we talked about ideas
Then we would have to talk about our values, instead of our petty and childish view of what is and isn’t “fair”
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
This comment was supposed to be to your comment down thread.
Moved although it could have fit here too.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
Agree the ideals are the important thing
But the insidious thing about these two groups in particular is that they have used the names themselves to reinforce a narrative saying that theirs is the only legitimate version of what constitutes concern for black lives or countering fascism. And therefore any criticism of them or their actions is illegitimate and tantamount to saying that black people's lives don't matter or that you are in support of fascism.
Look what happens when some non-antifa show up to counter-protest what was supposed to be a white supremacist rally (the white supremacist group never showed up). To be clear, the non-antifa group (from Portland) were there to protest the white supremacists, not to protest against antifa.
Why not create a BLDM ?
At least that label would be truthful, because it is pretty obious that black lives don't matter in our neighborhoods, right?
Tired of all those kneeling and non-kneeling demonstrations of making a farce of truly gawd-awful living conditions.
I agree with gulfgal, lives matter, deaths matter, facism matters, tyranny matters, love matters too, a lot.
Waaay too close to the truth, and truth telling is not well
tolerated by the populace of this country. Also, they'd get co-opted by George Soros in minutes, like occupy and every other left seeming organization he bought and funded.
some snark may or may not be included above.
be well and have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Of course BLM has been bought
by some rich dudes that want to derail it into something toothless just like the grassroots Tea Party was bought by the Kochs and their ilk. But that doesn't take away from the fact that many people are out there protesting legitimate beefs.
I don't understand why you insist that no one here sees what you do. In Tuesday's Open Thread in your response to my comment it looked to me that you were bringing arguments and ideas from other websites and attributing them to being said here and not really responding to what I said and saying that many here were wrong. Gun rights for example. As I said, I wasn't talking about the right to own guns in any way or take them to their protests, but was talking about why some 2nd amendment folks either didn't care or notice that most of their other rights had been nullified.
True. And this is why the elites send their goon squads bulked up with military equipment to push the protests into being violent. Same with the outside agitators that are more often cops or someone working for the 'deep state' to implement the laws they already passed in congress and in secret courts. Please don't paint this site with a broad brush. We be very smart here.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Are you trying to say
we're smarter than we look?
I resemble that remark.....
Excellent comment by the way. Thanks.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
Hi, Snoop
sorry for the non-timely reply.
Let's see...
Well, you might say that we are seeing many of the same things but drawing very different conclusions from them in a lot of cases.
Take the Re-Open thing. You raised the point about whether pro-2nd Amendment - let's call them "gun people" - were aware or concerned about the erosion of their other rights. I can't prove that they do/are, but note that the sentiment that "the 2nd Amendment is there to ensure the 1st" (or "the rest", or similar wording) are often-expressed sentiments.
Looking at the protests themselves, and the lockdowns, I'd contend that the fact that the Re-Open demos were taking place and the sentiments that were being expressed there suggests that those people *are* thinking about the state of their rights ("freely assemble" comes to mind) and of their communities - and the reaction to them in the MSM and by at least some people here to the lockdowns and Re-Open demos suggests that it might be just as reasonable to ask (as the Re-Open/gun people might) whether people willing to people willing to submit to mass house arrest (or something very near to it) by executive fiat, mass economic destruction of small businesses enhanced surveillance regimes and (potentially) mandatory medication are paying due regard for *their* rights.
You're right about needing to be clear/careful in distinguishing between specific things that people say here and things said elsewhere. That said, I've had more than a few occasions here when I have addressed specific and fairly outrageous comments people have made and get no response at all, whether to tell my that it's I that am FOS or to admit they were mistaken.
See below in this thread, for example where I am accused of insulting people. I respond by asking who I've insulted - no response.
More generally, I still contend that Lord Jamar is correct when he says this is about social engineering and that BLM was not only does not really represent the main concerns of the black community but that it is intended to forestall the organic growth of a movement that would do that.
Not that BLM is unique in that regard - looking at things like Greta Thunberg and Extinction Event, whatever that David Hogg-connected anti gun group is called, antifa, LGBQ-whatever... the money all seems to come from the same general direction and they are all about divisiveness and orthodoxy. You can only be concerned about racism or problems facing the black community if you accept what that they are exactly what BLM says they are. You can only be against fascism exactly as antifa defines it...
So, if all of this is being manipulated toward an end, well - what is it?
I'm suggesting that conspiracy wackos may be right, that someone has been playing a very long game working to create conditions that will enable the destruction of (what's left of) the American Republic. I'd say we're in the midst of one of those Clinton-Soros brand color "revolutions" (coups) and most people are pretty much oblivious.
Even the ones that see something like this happening are prone to misunderstand the aims and who is running it and hoping to benefit. People on the left, as far as I can tell, tend to think this is something Trump is doing to hang on to power. I'd suggest the aim is actually to get rid of Trump. But beyond that, the PTB want to make sure that no one not fully vetted and controllable by them will ever become president again.
No doubt they thought they already had a lock on that and had become complacent and indiscreet about their activities. The prospect of those being exposed and (unmanaged) discontent stirring amongst the sheeple put them in some sort of panic mode, it seems.
Any qualms they have about whacking Trump (not to mention any of the rest of us) to achieve their aims are strategic, no moral.
FWIW - I do not in any way deny that a lot of, probably most, people protesting are quite sincere nor that people have a lot of valid reasons for discontent with how things work and who they work for in American society. But understanding the nature of a problem is pretty key to solving it and that often demands examining preconceptions about what is really going on. Some of that happening, but not enough, fast enough.
In a modest way, I'm trying to contribute to that - not just piss people off. Hope that clarifies.
Peace, and brace for interesting times,
BR
"So if we were just to look at everyone like our loved ones, we would be treating people (in) entirely different ways... you have to want for your brother or your sister what you want for yourself."
Lord Jamar (2016)
Dear Blue Republic
Some pointers in the art of persuasion through the written word:
1. Begin your conversation by finding something you can agree on. This will give your reader a signal that you respect them and they will be more receptive to respond in kind.
2. Frame your point of view as if you were having a discussion with someone you did not hold in utter contempt. The absence of hostility will be much more likely to garner an organic conversation as opposed to the barbs you will inevitably get with the method you chose for this essay.
3. Consider using words that don’t leave your reader with an impression you are insulting them. Words like “grovel” for example, have a pejorative connotation and might be misinterpreted by your readers.
These are just a few ways you can improve your communication skills in a way that will make your message much more effective instead of coming off sounding, well, like you did. Not always the best way to begin a meaningful conversation.
Good luck in your future persuasion skills!
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Excellent points.
"Fair" is a judgement not an absolute. Fair in one person's view is rubbish in another's. As soon as something is declared fair or unfair there is an immediate potential conflict that usually derails the discussion about the thing or issue being discussed. This is one of many reasons a good discussion about values, policy, feelings, personal worldview, and our experiences end up in a circular argument that prevents an exchange of information for consideration and any possibility of mutual understanding.
To me it is the understanding that is important. Understanding is not agreement and is not a judgement open to conflict. That's why listening closely and finding clarity is essential. Listening is respect for the person that is a basis for building a foundation where a conversation may happen.
Of course, the problem is often that people talk and write to be heard even when what they have nothing of value to say. Often, I'll listen or read what others have to say even if it's nonsense on the surface. That's a judgement that is occasionally wrong. Even if it is nonsense I more often than not find another perspective I didn't expect and I always get a better read on who the person is. There's the understanding I find so valuable. The simple act of listening builds future bridges.
But I suspect you already know all of this Anja. Thanks.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
I used to teach a class in business writing
To superintendents looking to get into the management side of property management. While the “pointers” I used above were meant in a satirical way to address this essay, they are actually rooted in principles for effective communication. Which is why it is recommended to begin your message with something you can “agree” on, in an attempt to meet a person at a point of understanding so that the defenses are lowered. So, while it’s true that the act of listening is key, for a message to be truly effective, the writer’s job is to create an environment for that to begin if the intent is to persuade anyone, of anything.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. You make some good points. And I was listening
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
A memory of a low time in my life
"I see your defenses are still intact." I took it as a compliment. Isn't growth fun? Thanks.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
Actually, "Fair" is none of that:
"Fair" is a place people go to buy corndogs and funnelcakes, look at pigs, rabbits and sheep, and ride midway rides.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
I stand corrected.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
You forgot the deep fried butter sticks
And snicker bars.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Also...
Neglected to mention the King of Pies, gooseberry custard pie. (It's right over at the Methodist Ladies' Pie Stand ...if there's any left.)
Forgive my ignorance
But I am not familiar with gooseberries.
I do like custard pies though. And I do like fruit pies, so it does sound like it could be pretty tasty.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Whoops, no custard with gooseberries.
Know what? I screwed up. I don't know that I've ever heard of gooseberry custard pie. The "custard" part is a mistake, but an honest one. It should be gooseberry pie - sans custard.
The reason this seeming typo happened is because my two favorite pies are rhubarb custard pie and gooseberry pie. My taste buds got the best of me and overruled my typing fingers. Generally, if I think of one of them, I can't help but think of the other.
These be gooseberries:
They might just be the most sour thing on the planet. See those little stems and dried flower blossoms? Those have to go.
Picking gooseberries is a prickly business. Those would be thorns you see protecting the berries:
Rhubarb Custard Pie
Sounds equally divine. Gooseberries look interesting. Never saw them before. Do they ever make preserves out of them?
Custard pies. Trader Joe’s has a new lemon custard pie with a shortbread crust that is pretty dang good. Tart and sweet. Best eaten chilled. Perfect for summer.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Not in Dixie.
I've not run into gooseberry preserves, but I don't see why you couldn't do it. There would have to be a LOT of sugar involved, that's for sure.
The recipe we used to use for gooseberry pie was straight out of the Betty Crocker cookbook, as I recall. It's simple as can be: gooseberries and sugar. That's it. I might have this wrong (from my defective memory), but as I recall it was 2 cups gooseberries and one cup sugar. We'd pound (mash, sort of) half the gooseberries and throw those, plus the remaining whole ones, into a saucepan with the sugar and heat until the sugar was well melted. Then dump the whole thing into a pie pan (pastry crust in it, not cooked). We'd always use a lattice top and I recommend that. Usual pie treatment after that. For specifics, check the BC cookbook. It's as easy as can be. Almost hard to believe how good it turns out considering how simple it is. (Naturally, the real secret is having someone around who can make a heavenly pie crust. Like my grandmother, my mom, and my ex. YMMV ...)
A note: Gooseberries are pretty firm; not soft at all. If fact, I'd be pretty wary of them if they weren't almost hard as marbles. Don't worry, they won't end up that way when they're cooked.
I grew gooseberries when I lived in Kansas. I've never seen them here in the South. Not once. Not even frozen. Same with rhubarb. Folks here don't even know what I'm talking about. If you can find a Yankee who has experience making pies when they lived in the North-country, they might be able to advise you. Don't bother asking a Texan. (Sorry, Texans...)
OK...
I'll certainly give those suggestions consideration - and only ask that you consider practicing what you preach.
The other day, in a reply to EL, I included a link to this video which you noted and posted the following:
Indicating that you had not watched the video yet were comfortable with contemptuously dismissing me for having linked to it as supporting a specific point I was making: that NYC hospitals may have killed more poor black people than police will in a whole year.
So, I wrote a response in which I listed specific claims that a nurse working with COVID patients at Elmhurst Hospital, NYC had made (and mostly documented):
And the response from you to that? Well, none at all...
"Mistakes can be corrected by those who pay attention to facts but dogmatism will not be corrected by those who are wedded to a vision." ~ Thomas Sowell
You want me to respond to this?
That the deaths themselves are comparable?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
I found that
video profoundly disturbing, and the woman who made it to be very credible.
If what she is saying is true then it is quite possible that yes, a very large number of poor, minority patients have been literally killed.
She is not the only nurse working in NYC hospitals to have made such a claim, but I don't have the link to the other one at the moment.
Good night.
- BR
The woman is very credible?
Apparently this doctor disagrees
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Well,
at least that is a response - still unclear if you ever looked at the Erin Olszewski video or are just taking the Dr. Z guy's word for what it contains.
No, I do not find his"debunking" to be that at all - he simply goes with character and strawman attacks and addresses little or nothing about the substance of what she *documents*.
He goes to the extreme of calling her "incredibly unprofessional" and "criminally negligent" and I hope she sues him for defamation. His dismissal of doctors who are using HCQ effectively as "non-experts" is disgusting and disingenuous - if they are saving lives with it then as far as I am concerned they *are* experts at what doctors are supposed to be about.
If you think anyone else is buying ZDogg's "debunking" take a stroll through the comments.
Here's one that covers most of the bases and is representative:
re: HCQ
source
BTW - if Erin Olszewski's agenda is to promote anti-science slander for profit, what do you think this nurses agenda is? Is she incompetent and unprofessional, too?
(this is still up on YT probably because of the Spanish title - dialogue is in English w/subtitles in Spanish - originally published in early May)
What happened at Elmhurst Hospital?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Watching this video,
it occurs to me that if a person holds a certain mindset it only takes the most minimal evidence free narrative to help that person hold onto their mindset.
Assumably the video was posted because it was seen as very persuasive? That persuasiveness was lost on me.
Your 'Lord Jamar' is a nut he compares homosexuality to incest
but his nuttiness doesn't stop there...in another video linked with this one he calls Bruce Jenner's transition "a sickness", another video has him "debating" over whether or not being Gay is a "choice".
So he's a Homophobe, but it goes a lot further than that..
Another jewel by Lord Jamal is the linked video of him claiming "Native Americans are really Africans"
"Lord Jamar shared his thoughts on slavery and Native Americans during a recent interview with Vlad TV, and the New York rapper said that there is substantial evidence to support that Africans are what we now think of as Native Americans. He explained that he has read about early settlers lying to unknowing younger generations about how they took from Africa and making them believe that they weren't born in America.
The conversation also brought up evolution and skin color, which Lord Jamar believes starts with the mind, not geographic location. He also disagreed with evolution, as he told DJ Vlad that Black people were in Europe long before white people. (emphasis mine)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR9MxjCyebY
In the video that follows that one Lord Jamar, says "the first Africans were tricked not forced into slavery".
In another video down the line your 'Lord Jamal' says Black men that are raised by women "are overly emotional".
A few videos later on the JFK assassination "I'm not convinced it was real, it could be a movie", in another video about Aids he says "we take on face value that aids is transmitted by sex" "you don't know that condoms protect you", he then weaves that 'belief' into Aids is a way for the govt. to scare people away from sex to keep the population growth down and there is no proof otherwise.
Oh yeah Ebola, according 'Lord Jamar' was the same scam.
I could go on, the whack job Jamal has a lot more videos in the lineup, but just these few, out of many, examples available in the videos linked to the one about BLM, definitely show him as a totally self absorbed cornucopia of baseless, and long debunked ideas, and an utter fool.
Why am I not surprised by this list? Thank you
for checking this out so I don’t have to!
First it’s worth noting that this character calls himself Lord Jamar — with an r, not Jamal.
I was surprised that the author of this post, who evidently thinks this person is so important that he should be taken as if he really is some kind of “lord” who knows the Truth, didn’t even know his name. (Doesn’t say much for his credibility either. ... just some confirmation bias... oh look here’s a black man saying what I want to hear. I can hide behind him! ...
But at any rate, after a minute or two of the video I was already moving on. There is a lot of good reading and listening available... no reason to waste any more time on this one.
But when I read your findings from looking into him, I thought, that all makes perfect sense. He came across as a complete wacko, and/or one of those people like supposedly gay man Milo Yiannopoulos, whose entire shtick is being a contrary, anti-gay conservative provocateur who opposes gay rights, all for a scrap of attention and money.
Elevating this character as a serious voice for anything is, well, let’s say laughable. Because sometimes if you don’t laugh, all that’s left is either rage or falling into a deep depression.
It’s that kind of attention to detail
That makes this essay so persuasive, right?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Wow
Thanks for doing the icky job of watching the videos for us.
Blue republic I hope that you aren’t just going to drop this and not respond to our comments. You started the conversation.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
A time difference?
Blue Republic resides in Japan, I believe. That might be one of the reasons He/She is not responding at this time.
The other is that BR believed we'd all come to our "senses" after watching Lord Jamar's video and thank him/her for shining a light on the delusions of our thinking and is saving that pleasure for a time when he/she can enjoy it.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Correct
re: the time difference - I'm typically posting
at night here - early morning N. America and may not
have a chance to respond until the following night.
Should probably adjust the publication time.
Sorry for any inconvenience.
Whatever Jamar's views
on other subjects - if you want to go self-congratulatory you might first want to point out something amiss with what he is saying about *this* subject. Which you have completely failed to do.
Something related on ZH
There's no shortage of konspiracy theories
“The founding fathers of my country”?
Someone should explain to this poor soul the confederacy ended long before he was born. Heh.
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
Wasn't aware that
Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson and George Washington had anything to do with the Confederacy.
This sort of "protest" is in keeping with the finest of Taliban or Red Guard traditions. Sad that you seem to find it amusing that anyone would actually resent it.
OTOH - I really dug "They Live" - maybe I could get you to autograph my original videocassette sometime?
Quote inscribed on the pedestal of the toppled Jefferson HS statue - placed there in 1916:
"Bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression."
Thomas Jefferson
I don't see the second bite being an improvement on the first.
I didn't comment on your original essay because I saw no invite to a discussion. You were telling it like you see BLM and current events. It was a powerful statement. I also think you are very wrong.
Massive conspiracies are about as rare as frog hair. The people you blasted, billionaires, their minions, corporations, and the supposed Deep State, are first and foremost predators. Predators feed on others by being ruthless, stealthy, avoiding risks to themselves, and never miss an opportunity. The billionaires hate each other as much as they don't even recognize their prey, us, as more than food. They only fight each other in ways that have little risk of causing a decisive engagement. They're bullies averse to a standup toe-to-toe fight. It doesn't make sense that so many diverse interests would band together when it's easy to derail something like BLM for little cost or risk.
BLM and those who support them are very vulnerable. The idiots out to take advantage of chaos and the provocateurs causing violence to blunt, discredit, and inevitably derail BLM and their cause don't need billionaire's bucks or support. There are more than enough racists and haters willing to do what they do for their own reasons. The politicians are doing what they've been doing for decades. They see advantage in seeming to do something while doing absolutely nothing. Every one of them is working for their own benefit and simply need no conspiracy to fulfill their aims.
I may have misread what you were trying to say but my biggest disagreement is with your minimization of the causes actually supported by BLM and friends. I can honestly not think of a single grievance greater than that claimed by the descendants of Africans removed by force from their families and homes to be slaves in the Americas. How many centuries of oppression does it take for people to be allowed to live in peace under the full protection of law like everyone else? I don't support all of their claims but I do think that the right to live in peace without being killed by overzealous, militarized police is the least any of us should expect.
It's not hard to understand that law enforcement in the US has lost its way and is dangerously out of control. It is not just a BLM issue but needs to be a top American priority to return law enforcement to being the servants of the people they are supposed to protect. Not permitted to kill indiscriminately without consequence. Those who oppose reform stand to profit from the status quo and just happen to be aligned by convenience with the anti-BLM interests. There is no conspiracy just common interests.
This one bothers me. Nobody is asking you to do any of those things. You are free to say no even if someone did demand it of you. As hard as it might be to understand none of this is about you.
Blue Republic, I like your writing. It always makes me think. I agree with some, others not so much. These BLM essays haven't been your best. The quote from the one above is the single reason. I think, I may be wrong, that you don't fully buy into the validity of the grievances of the AA community and I can't really tell what you think about the police issues. It really doesn't matter what I think. Your life, your choice, and I couldn't change it if I wanted to. I don't.
Many years ago I read an anonymous quote that Howard Zinn put in the forward of his book A People's History of the United States that really struck a nerve and was the source of a lot of personal growth. It is one basis for my thinking about both of these issues and more. Take it for what it's worth.
Let me add the wisest advice I've ever been given : It isn't any of our business what others think about us.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
Great quote
I think what’s getting lost in essays like this, are the grievances themselves, and the idea that politics benefiting from the contention race plays in this country does not mean institutional racism does not exist. We can chew gum and walk at the same time. Which means we can identify what TPTB are doing to sow discord, while also fighting for racial justice.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Howard is my favorite historian.
Trying to understand the disconnects and craziness (HA! that was nothing!) in the US in the early '90s started me on a quest to understand our early history. I got really down in the weeds trying to understand where we came from in hopes of understanding how we came to be where we were. About 20 years later I had donated some 400 high quality history books to our library and had confirmed that, yes, we had come off the rails since the mid 18th century. Howard was the first historian who actually could explain how and why rather than just what had occurred when.
That quote is a foundation for a lot of my thinking today. It is a strong caution to never dismiss what people are telling us about their lives.
I agree that there is much more static that makes sorting out issues very difficult. Poor process is the norm for most people too. Too few have either the time or the ability to figure out what is credible/real and what isn't. We end up arguing about symptoms rather than causes and remedies.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
hope the library
hung on to those books, and that someone will actually read them (and that they don't go up in a "woke" bonfire). Didn't recall that particular Zinn quote, maybe I should dig out my People' History for a re-read.
One thing that stuck with me from that book was his bit about how although there were numerous instances of people (both free and slave) bailing out of European-settled areas to live with the Indians or make their own way in lands not under effective government control the reverse essentially never occurred, at least until tribal structures and economic bases had been destroyed and survivors gravitated to the fringes of "civilization".
for another historian good for illuminating the why and how and not just the what, suggest David Hackett Fischer...
"One of the most important reasons for studying history is that virtually every stupid idea that is in vogue today has been tried before and proved disastrous before, time and again." ~ Thomas Sowell
Most went to their quarterly sale
to support the library. I knew that going in. The ones more academic and reference in nature were retained. It's a midsize county library with poor funding beyond what the members provide. I still have every Zinn book and I brought them to Ecuador with me. Each rereading offers more insight into Howard.
A people's movement is exactly what we're seeing today with a few unwanted additions like every movement is going to have. There have always been opponents who pretend to support such movements with the purpose of derailing it. There have always been those hoping to profit. There have always been who just want to stir the shit and make trouble. Government has always interfered with anything that looks like a threat to their power. Politicians being the opportunists have always looked for advantage that benefits them. Not much is different today except the moneyed interests are far more aggressive and willing to invest in hopes of making a big profit.
I remember the '60s really well. I was totally involved 24/7 in an engineering degree and a USAF commission to be pilot and officer in the late '60s, early '70s. I didn't like what was happening in Vietnam but I bought the status quo bullshit on the social issues and the commie threat. I was also willfully apolitical. That was what was required of officers then. I began to change by the the late '80s when I was flying for an airline and so much that I saw in the world was very, very different than I had been told was real. The bottom line is that I now know I was terribly wrong about almost everything. I came to that conclusion through reason, study, and opening my eyes to the plight of people. The changing point was when I realized that all of my successes were shared with others and only my failures and faults are my own.
So, yeah, this is a people's movement. Contrary to how you say that you look at it, I think that people who are safe otherwise are willing to risk their health with Covid to join demonstrations and face out of control riot police. It's really easy to say we support such and such when we're safe in our homes hiding behind keyboards, making YouTube videos, on social media, and among our friends when we aren't willing to put our skin and security in the game. Like Shahryar says above, it isn't until the upper middle class begins to understand their own security is at risk and is willing to oppose it that a movement will have any chance of succeeding. Zinn called them the Praetorian Guard from the elite soldiers who guarded Caesars in Rome. Only when the monied interests lose their support and protection will meaningful change be possible.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
Nailed it
And it’s not just about their living under the thumb of the Man, but so many other issues. Economic and environmental issues affect so many aspects of their lives. But here it crosses over to what so many of our fellow citizens are living with. There are no dumps or chemical waste plants located in rich white neighborhoods are there?
The government is supposed to oversee all of we the people not just the ones who bribe them to make laws in their favor. When the Supreme Court decided that corporations were people they should have then been eligible for the death penalty just like the rest of us. How many hundreds of thousands of people have they killed since the USA was founded? And now the numbers are going to climb into the stratosphere because Trump is deregulating every industry. Letting companies put air plane fuel in our water supply? Not one word from democrats. Except the one who isn’t one that is.
Student of the earth posted a link to Putin’s essay on the 75th anniversary of WWII and that’s where I got my sigline from. He’s right. Our government puts the needs of the few before us. And they are taking every last penny out of the country with the blessings of congress before they abandon it totally. I’d love to see the elite try to buy up the next protests that are coming when the economy crashes again.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Good lord is anyone buying this?
You might stand with us, Nancy, but I seriously doubt that you will do anything else.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
I've left her so far behind I can't see her
Schumer, too. They're pretty much the same as Susan Collins, pretending to be concerned but...well...you know!
It's an Obamaism:
pretty words, zero effective action.
"Not a clue" Nancy to the rescue. Why is she standing? I thought she was taking a knee. FFS get your story straight.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
I thought she was bending the knee
Dressed in kente cloth?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Flip side
Pretty sure the kente cloths used were reversible fabric. Opposite side is a corporate donation form.
Good one Traveler
Because, as we all know, there’s a “public” persona and a “private
corporate” one to maintain.There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Thanks snoopy
My family was poor when I was a kid. I can't really say my needs weren't met for the most part. My wants were another thing. The AA and Italian families we lived near for several years couldn't quite say that. Worse, I and my siblings escaped due to my mother finding a good union job. I thought it was just how things were and was because we did something better or were better people. I didn't see it then but there was a strange coincidence that those who advanced themselves were mostly white. We and the white families we knew often got breaks that the other races and ethnicities didn't.
That divide is not quite as wide today as it was then. Social and economic mobility has been increasingly stifled since the '70s. Those who made it out before the ladder got pulled up thought, some still do, that it was their fault. Those who didn't just weren't smart enough, didn't take education seriously enough, and/or weren't otherwise worthy. It was their fault too. Different outcomes but it was all on the individual person. I've watched too many good people fail, their fault say many, who would have succeeded had they not been born with too much dark pigment in their skin. It happened too often to just be happenstance. But now even pale skin color isn't enough to provide preferential social and economic advancement and people left behind are pissed. It used to be their due. For AA families it's just another day ending in "y".
That's the discussion those left behind by the system want us to focus on. All Lives Matter (mine especially) is the tell. Their class is no longer as protected as it once was. It's like the guy said to Mary Todd Lincoln, "Yeah, I heard something about that but how was the play?" Being hosed by the system isn't a bad thing until it's me.
These are two separate examples of the same problem. That's why I have begun to understand that economics is the greater divider than race, ethnicity, education, family, or anything else. The problem is that race has been the obvious characteristic used to discriminate and oppress for so long it needs to be addressed before it's possible to see that economics is the underlying problem. Nothing can change until people refuse to allow something as silly as race to divide us as a people. We're having the wrong argument among ourselves and our masters profit.
That's an important concept: anything we allow to divide us makes us more vulnerable.
TPTB are smart enough to know that there is a tipping point. As long as the police limit their excesses to the underclasses, AA and immigrants mostly, they can maintain control. I expect to see some worthless cosmetic reforms in law enforcement like the stimulus checks were but with a tanking economy and runaway unemployment the pain may become too widespread to stop widespread havoc.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
Your comment rates
much more of a response, but am responded out for the moment. Thanks for taking the time.
Well , yes - but when those others control your livelihood it gets kind of difficult to ignore:
The usual reply I get
from what I'm about to write is "...but wut 'bout mah rights?!" Let's see how it goes.
I don't know much about this story that somehow has something to do with my comment. When did it happen? 2015? If so, so what? It really doesn't speak to today or current events. A few sentences is insufficient to offer any basis for an opinion. If what is offered is supposed to indicate some injustice and/or an indication that what this principal wrote in the public domain isn't racist, it doesn't. I have no opinion about the facts in this story and certainly have no conclusions. What I'm going to say next doesn't require knowing anything about the incident or the aftermath.
A principal with extensive education and work experience as well as life experience should have the good judgement to know when to not puke up stuff on social media that has the slightest potential for being controversial. If this is a current event then that person has to be a total idiot to chime in when the atmosphere crackles with emotion. How clueless and/or uninformed does someone have to be to know that mouthing off on social media is asking for trouble. Someone with judgement this bad should not be entrusted with leading a K-12 school. Being sent off with a severance package would be a pretty good deal compared to what may have happened.
I've said and done my share of stupid things in my life until I realized that not saying or doing something stupid never got me in trouble. I don't think the few quotes attributed to Riley rise to the level of stupid on their own merit. Putting them on FaceBook does rise to the level of stupid though. Riley has the right to say just about anything he/she wants but had best be ready to deal with the consequences of the words and actions. Crying because we haven't played the tape all the way to the end when deciding to do or say something demonstrates an unwillingness to take responsibility for our actions. That's not showing principal level character. Someone who doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut is not likely to be able to pass that along to students in the school he runs.
About this time I usually hear about how unfair and wrong it is that a mob on social media can affect someone's employment. We're looking in the wrong place if we expect life to be fair. We may find fair in a refereed boxing match but only a fool expects life to be fair. Wrong? Maybe, maybe not. It's situational and a judgement that will have strong arguments on both sides. None of that matters because that's how things work. Don't like consequences from social media? Don't play there and FFS keep your big mouth shut if you are unprepared or unwilling to deal with consequences. That's the reality like it or not.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
I'll leave these here
for you evaluate and assess...
CIA Charity, NGO, Think Tank, Media, NWO Funding
[video:https://youtu.be/pDi_1T2jJb0]
Rage Against The Regime
[video:https://youtu.be/4YKfPe7mPUI]
Of course I'm an old, angry white guy, but I have no guilt for being white and I live with my head held high, because my "integrity" to my principals is in tack, a person is defined by their words and deeds, not the color of their skin.
I quit public school after 8th grade, because I was not willing to bow to the faux creationist theory of how our country was formed. You can't say All Men Were Created Equal, and then have a constitution that assigned black people to be 3/4 human. That doesn't square.
Any "movement" or "idea" that even remotely "threatens" the "system", is automatically targeted to either be destroyed or co-opted by the ruling elite. George Soros is a perfect example. He's all for open borders, as long as he can make a profit. He's a %1 percenter, co-opting many social movements across the planet. (see Rage Against the Regime video above)
Both of these videos above are about exposing the CIA, Round table organizations (NED / USAID) and NGO's and the ruling elite and how they co-opt social movements.
C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote
Grovel and beg forgiveness for your whiteness?
Really? Sorry, but that statement sounds just a tad bit racist to me. The very idea that anyone is asking white people to "grovel" and "shell out for reparations" sounds very right wing to me, although even I know better than to ascribe that American tendency to only the right wing. And that trope has been used for decades to immediately discredit any calls for racial justice in a country FOUNDED on genocide and slavery. Perhaps more of us should grovel a bit, if groveling means paying attention to what America really is all about? Our owners love them some divisive language about groveling to "the other" and by using that language you are playing their game, whether you see that or not. As for seeing that BLM is funded by the monied class, it is also pretty arrogant of you to think you're the only one who sees that, especially at a site such as this one. By using the very divisive and yes, hyperbolic language of the ownership class, you sound almost as co-opted as you accuse BLM of being...
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Like Snoopydawg said in Tuesday's OT
We be smart around here.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Long day, Anja?
I said that up thread.
Luv ya anyway.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Hmmm...
I guess I be mixed up. Either way, bears repeating apparently. Lol.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Blue Republic, I agree
that the things you’ve been saying lately about the BLM protests have already been done to death and repeated far too often. Like others here have said, it’s not that I don’t understand your point. It’s just that I (and many others) do not agree with you. Repeating your point over and over, with ever-increasing condescension, isn’t going to persuade anyone.
If you want to try to understand why your points don’t fly, maybe this guy can put it into words that you can relate to:
[video:https://youtu.be/l71Pvvnp3oE]
The last part is the best. Bam. His comments could be from today, but this clip was actually uploaded 3 years ago. And nothing changed. At what point is it time to stop this shit?
I Love it
I'm actually redneck.
(The hair on my neck is red)
You might be a redneck, if you toss your kids in the fishing pond in lieu of swimming lessons, so you can afford more beer.
C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote
@CS in AZ
If people want to disagree, well fine.
But, for the most part, I'm seeing very little in the way of substantive responses to anything I've been saying. Bringing up Jamar's views on homosexuality and acting like that amounts to substantive criticism of what he is talking about in *this* video on an entirely different topic - is kind of pathetic.
Another example: I have, on a number of occasions, pointed out what appears to me to be a double standard about the reactions here to the Re-Open protests and the response to the George Floyd killing. The Re-Open protestors were denounced by various people here as dangerous, selfish, irresponsible, ignorant... I responded by posting video in which participants explained their concerns - which, of course, anyone is free to disagree with. In any case, those protests were non-violent.
So, along comes the George Floyd situation and while many protests were just that, as it escalated into riots, arson, looting, vandalism, assault and homicide (while still in the midst of the COVID situation that was a huge deal until then) the response here ranged from fairly vocal support to accepting it all as an expression of righteous anger.
OK. But nobody here seems to want to own these contradictory positions nor to make a case for their being logically or morally consistent somehow.
So, if people think that I'm wrong about something and that they have the moral high ground and are as smart as they claim, then why can't(won't?) someone explain to me in concrete terms *what* I'm wrong about and why?
Why would it not be reasonable for me to interpret failure to do so as a condescending attitude towards me and/or a tacit admission on their part that their position is not really defensible?
RE: the liberal redneck video, yeah, I get it - the problem is that rednecks are racist - so I must be a redneck and therefore racist and therefore whatever I say can be disregarded.
How convenient.
Yet, aside from Lord Jamar, I have put up links in other threads to other black people: Larry Pinkney, Allen Keyes, Candace Owens, to name just three, who are among the many who have problems with BLM, and somehow they are just ignored as well, despite all being extremely intelligent and articulate. Bit hard to dismiss them as racist rednecks, no?
Not sure if you are referencing people's failure to engage uncomfortable opinions or ending abuse of the population by the police and legal system. Either way, the sooner the better.
No one owes you a response to your trolling
No one has stopped you from stating (and restating, and restating...) these exact same insults and talking points ad nauseam — despite that fact that you are clearly not interested in any real discussion. You seem to believe that people here owe you their time and attention. We don’t. If you showed any desire to engage honestly, people would probably respond to that. But as long as you keep acting like a troll who has no purpose here other than to lob insults at us and whine that you are not getting the attention you feel you deserve, I don’t see why anyone would bother.
Like I said above, I agree with your initial (now clearly dishonest) claim to have realized that your constant harping on the same straw-man arguments wasn’t working or going to accomplish anything. Too bad you didn’t really mean what you said. What a surprise.
When I run across
some real discussion, as occasionally happens, I try to engage in it in good faith - that is not trolling.
And who, by the way, have I insulted?
Dear Blue Republic,
While you may have a point that the reaction here to the Re-Open protestors vs. the George Floyd protestors was not the same, your insistence that we give you a substantive argument on that topic comes off as myopically self-indulgent on your part. At best, I’d have to characterize you arguing that your scoop of ice cream wasn’t as big as everybody else’s while the house is burning down as not proportional to the grievances following George Floyd murder.
If you find that view condescending, my apologies.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Correct me if I’m wrong BR
but the issues you are talking about you are saying that folks here were saying that they were right or wrong, but I still think that you are bringing discussions from other sites into your conversations and then asking us why we don’t agree with you. I haven’t seen people here arguing about any of the things you brought up in Tuesday’s OT where this started and why you wrote this essay. People here open to discussing all sorts of issues as long as they are in good faith.
Has COVID been hijacked for nefarious purposes? I think they have been. Are the death numbers being fudged one way or another? I think so. Are they manipulating us with the numbers of increased infections in the states that have opened up again? I think so here too. For one thing they are going up, but is the death rate following? How are the numbers doing in states that are still in lockdown? How about how many people are in the ICU's across the country? And what are the age groups of the people who died? Utah’s numbers are going up, but not the deaths. But then they don’t give us a breakdown for who got infected or died. And how many people died of COVID or died with it on board and they were going to die anyway because of end stage diseases? Real clear politics says that the media is doing COVID porn because they are not telling the whole story.
BLM is a different topic for me but I’m not going to go into more than I already did up thread. For now.
Will you please respond to my comment on this? I was more coherent then.
Thanks for responding. I wasn’t aware of the time zone problem.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
i won't watch the video after seeing
descriptions of it, but as i remember it, alicia gaza, patrisse cullors, and opal tomei claimed ownership of the hashtag #BlackLivesMatter, and bristled at #NativeLivesMatter, #LatinLivesMatter, and so on...the second two groups of color most often killed by police in amerika per capita after blacks.
those 3 women were indeed paid handsomely to sheepdog for the Dems, and according to glen ford of black agenda report, june 2019:
and paul street, aug. 2017: :
and of course the revolutionary potential (including globally)of the anti-police state movement needs to the acknowledge that even white people and brown of a lower class and vulnerability are murdered by police as well.
street used, as could have ford, this quote to bring it home:
and the truth is, the many signs in the protests (even around the world) DO read:
but it's because they never have, nor have the lower classes, save for the stolen fruits of their labor, and it's an easy fact to relate to and print on sign.
even margaret kimberly had used it in her great take-down of the kinte cloth congressional kneelers.
and the anti-police protests in the US and around the world are Not being run by garza, et.al., nor financed by ford foundaton's milllions, but still, the Democrat Team is trying to co-opt them, as are many corporate businesses. say, did you hear that kamala (the lotus flower) harris is about to offer a bill making Juneteenth a national holiday? that'll take care of it, won't it?
BLM in 2016 and BLM in 2020
The BLM movement was not much under Obama when it started, and in 2016 was co-opted by the democratic establishment under Hillary Clinton. It was no accident that BLM protesters attempted to attack and humiliate Bernie in Seattle. And then about a month later "BLM protesters" were having tea and crumpets with Hillary in NH.
And what happened at the covention that year--Hillary put on display the mothers of murdered black men all sporting bright read outfits. Oh, in addition I read about a convention of various organziations dedicated to racial social justice issues in which Hillary's African American outreach director had a cozy meeting with one of the women who coined the BLM.
But the BLM of 2020 is another thing. I don't know yet how to make sense of it. It is a sponataneous reaction. It is very large and wide spread with protests both in the major and small cities. For example, Fort Wayne Indiana had both protests and riots. Oh, and unlike BLM in previous years, violence has followed peaceful protests. People are reacting to police violence against peaceful prosters in much the same way people reacted to Southern police violance against Civil Rights marchers. The largest group of protesters from what I have seen are young white people in their 20's and 30's. They greatly outnumber all protesters. BLM is turning into a label not only against police violence, but as a label for other grievances.
in amerika,
i like to call this Civil Right 2020, but in 2017 added in 'movement for black lives', as well, although i've forgotten the exact acronym M4BL?), so maybe that's what you're pinging?.
the 3 women interrupting bernie on the stage may not have been an accident, but clinton sure handled them (maybe just 2 of them?) more shrewdly (off-stage w/ 'what are your demands?' wasn't it? i hadn't known that their sheep-dogging and polling as to 'what demoCrats want' (egad)or was it 'what do black demoCrats want?) had paid off so handsomely with clinton.
as to the spontaneous nature of it in the US, i think folks are just pain pissed off on several counts: poverty (and a disappearing middle class), the coronavirus lockdowns, and that the police state is more out of control than ever.
in the 60s, passive resistance v. the police state in the south worked when it was seen on people's teevees, i think. i don't know what people see now. but i will say that i spent part of today comparing coverage of a new killing of a latino in compton, CA, and boy, howdy, is it varied!
people at the current post-george floyd protests are also pissed about the nightly curfews, and that's when things become far more rowdy, sometimes as a result of police barbarianism, sometimes just opportunistically. that the only three people arrested so far for torching anything (the 3rd precinct in minneapolis, and the Wendy's in atlanta) are all white is worth noting, and i wonder what they're about.
oh, my; i may have gone too far afield in my stream-of-consciusness way, but i need to get offline now as i've got those C-shaped prisms in my eyes goin' on.
Only a Neanderthal here, but imo, we'd best stop killing each
other. Let's take away the guns and start there for our children's sake.
Normally, Neanderthal's don't preach, that's why i love the heritage. Forgive my doing so.
To those who say this isn't populist
What do you think a people's movement should look like? Only victims of racism or classism?
That can never succeed. The only movement that can work is when the guardians join in. That means comfortable, well off white people.
Anything that looks far left will get squashed. It's only when those making $100k are part of it that business, the real power machine, will fear it and make concessions.
I've stopped watching Rising since Saagar claimed this is "faux populism" because companies are making these supportive statements. He claims it's because they're behind it. I say it's because they're afraid of it.
People in the streets is what we've needed. For Saagar or anyone to call it phony suggests, to me, that they don't want real populism. If they want any kind it would have to be their fantasy of what it might look like.