Anglican percolation

In July the General Synod of the Church of England will vote on creation of a special service to celebrate a transgender Christian's transition.

The controversial motion has dismayed traditionalists, who say the Bible teaches that gender is God-given.

But liberal members say vicars have been forced to devise unofficial services to welcome sex-change worshippers and the Church should demonstrate its unambiguous acceptance of transsexuals.

The motion will be debated by the General Synod in July and comes at a highly sensitive time for bishops, who are struggling to prevent a major split over same-sex marriage.

There is strong opposition, off course.

Conservative Synod member Andrea Williams, director of pressure group Christian Concern, said: ‘It is unclear why we are even debating this issue.

‘We are sensitive to people who feel uncomfortable with their sex, but Christian teaching is that God made us man and woman.

‘The Church should help people to see the beauty of their God-given sex instead of confusing them.’

Transgender people are, of course, not confused about who we are..

The Synod will also be asked to denounce "conversion therapy" as "unethical, harmful' and having 'no place in the modern world'."

It is incredibly important that religious organisations follow the clear lead set by the health care professions in standing against this highly damaging and unethical practice, which reinforces stigma and prejudice against the LGBTI community.

The Bible teaches that we are each fearfully and wonderfully made, and we should therefore look to celebrate God's gift of diversity in creation not treat those of us who are non-heterosexual as having mental disorders that need to be "cured".

--Jayne Ozanne, senior synod member

If passed, the CofE would co-sign a statement from several professional bodies including the UK Council for Psychotherapy and The Royal College of General Practitioners to say: 'Sexual orientations and gender identities are not mental health disorders, although exclusion, stigma and prejudice may precipitate mental health issues for any person subjected to these abuses.'

Being gay or trans is not an illness, and shouldn't be treated as such – young people should be protected from attempts to change who they are. We're looking carefully at the extent of the problem, and the experience of other countries that have introduced bans, to ensure we get the approach to this right.

--Prime Minister Theresa May

The service for transgender people would be in the style of a baptism.

Trans people feel powerfully called to be recognised in their 'chosen' name. An opportunity to be publicly introduced to God is therefore significant. I think this is what the proposed liturgy aims to do.

It will be symbolically powerful. The extent to which it is [a form of] baptism will be debated by General Synod of course, but this liturgy is a welcome move to affirm Trans people.

--Rev. Rachel Mann, Rector of St. Nicholas Burnage

The CofE's position on transgender people accepts that differing views can 'properly be held' on the subject but the motion is likely to receive opposition from conservative synod members.

People who have gender dysphoria must be treated with the utmost love and pastoral sensitivity, and of course warmly welcomed in our churches. I am far from convinced that surgical or medical intervention to try to reassign gender is a loving response. I do not think that scripture supports the idea that gender, which is a physical fact about a person's identity (whether assessed by reference to chromosomes or genitalia), can be changed; rather I do believe that the Holy Spirit can bring change to how a person perceives gender to conform it to the physical facts.

--Clive Scowen, senior evangelical member of the synod

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thanatokephaloides's picture

They percolate. Smile

I estimate that sometime in the next 500 years the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches may get this discussion started.....

Wink

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"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Hetrose's picture

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Centaurea's picture

Seems like Clive Scowen needs some educating about what gender is.

I do not think that scripture supports the idea that gender, which is a physical fact about a person's identity (whether assessed by reference to chromosomes or genitalia), can be changed

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"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone

PriceRip's picture

          ... if the appropriate professionals would learn modern physics. Classical "logic" and classical "thinking" are not capable of informing the discussion of gender issues. Thoughts, emotions, and other processes in the brain or any other physical system for that matter are not mediated by "classical" interactions. In fact "classical" descriptions always fail at the frontier of knowledge ... that's why it's the frontier!

          The point is, once you understand the nature of brain function, the origin of "gender fluidity" [or whatever is the proper phrase] is obvious. Being transgender is no more (nor any less) mysterious than any other physical or mental variation found in the population of humans. Alas, religion thrives on ignorance, so what is there to do.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@PriceRip

Classical "logic" and classical "thinking" are not capable of informing the discussion of gender issues.

Not true. 99.9998% of humanity never has had and never will have anything else, as modern physics requires mathematical mastery that only a tiny minority of us will ever possess.

That modern physics, and its backing math, assists you to understand gender reality is a good thing; please do not misunderstand me. If nothing else, it helps you get the very necessary points across to other physicists and advanced mathematicians.

Where we diverge here has to do with the term "classical thinking". The religious cultists who oppose the right of LGBTQI people to be what they are, in public, think they've got classical culture on their side. But they're wrong. Before the Christians arrived on the scene, classical-age civilizations were quite accepting of most flavors of genderqueer folks. Or, at least, there were slots in those civilizations for such people, something that Christendom made a point of wiping out.

And then we have the other half of the term "classical thinking": the "thinking" part. Good, old-fashioned, 19th Century style critical thinking, tossed with a dash of altruism and a pinch of civilized compassion, is more than enough to bring anyone to the correct conclusions regarding the gender nonconformant among us. In some cases, a strong commitment to adherence to the results of such thinking regardless of pre-programmed emotional response may also be required. (I have personally observed this latter requirement, even among queer folks themselves.) But those who refuse this critical acceptance aren't doing any thinking at all, be it classical, modern, post-modern, or whatnot. They are simply regurgitating positions programmed into their heads and hearts by those before them who also would rather regurgitate than think -- at all.

But trust me on this: the necessary understanding and acceptance can be done without reference to disciplines dependent on advanced mathematics. In fact, for most of us, it must be done that way, so it is fortunate that it can indeed be so accomplished.

Or, stated more succinctly, "no calculus required". Smile

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"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

PriceRip's picture

@thanatokephaloides

          99.9998% of humanity never has had and never will have anything else, as modern physics requires mathematical mastery that only a tiny minority of us will ever possess.

          ... because an understanding of why modern physics is needed does not require mathematical mastery. My job is to reduce the explanation of (why modern physics is required and how classical thinking is not sufficient to the task) to the freshman level. This I can do. What I cannot do is to reduce the process of doing the details of modern physics to the freshman level because no one understands why any of that actually works.

          In other words, we can explain why we need to do it, but we don't know why it works.

          Let me say it another way: Feynman, and others, worked out the mathematics that provides very precise calculational results. Experimental results are consistent with the calculational results. The experimental results do not constrain the calculational results. So, we know how to calculate values with greater precision than we can actually measure experimentally.

          We are completely unable to explain why the calculations work. We know they work, but we do not understand why these calculations work. Nobody understands Quantum Mechanics ... Nobody.

          But we understand that it does work. Well we understand this for electro-magnetic, weak, and strong interactions. The jury is still out with respect to gravitational (including dark matter and dark energy) interactions.

          This is understandable at the freshman level. The only barrier is finding someone you trust to teach you the basics. No advanced degree needed.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@PriceRip

We are completely unable to explain why the calculations work. We know they work, but we do not understand why these calculations work. Nobody understands Quantum Mechanics ... Nobody.

You do realize that this three sentence blurb will be how you are remembered 1000 years from today, do you not? Wink

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"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

PriceRip's picture

@thanatokephaloides

          remembered for 1000 years, I would like that, but I don't think that will happen.

          On the positive side, at least it is the truth and it will stand the test of time.

Pardon

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@PriceRip

... because an understanding of why modern physics is needed does not require mathematical mastery. My job is to reduce the explanation of (why modern physics is required and how classical thinking is not sufficient to the task) to the freshman level. This I can do. What I cannot do is to reduce the process of doing the details of modern physics to the freshman level because no one understands why any of that actually works.

I understand why it is that this "freshman level" understanding of modern physics is necessary to be an educated person in these times where modern physics has the impact on our daily lives that it does. I do not dispute that and never have.

But I do dispute that this understanding is necessary to the task of obtaining full acceptance and genuinely humane treatment by society of its gender-nonconforming members. Why? Because humanity already possessed the tools to do just that centuries before the days of Aristotle, much less Leonardo da Vinci, to say nothing of the times of Newton, Leibniz, Einstein and their various successors. My evidence, of course, is that various human societies accomplished the task in the past ages of which I speak. Frankly, as human civilizations go, we moderns score rather poorly in this area while there are ancient and even primitive cultures who were doing considerably better than us. (And with less pain, strife, and effort, I might add!)

This isn't a STEM problem in any way, shape or form. It's a humanities problem. And it lies solely in the realm of the humanities, in adjustments to our social culture, that the solutions must needs be found. After all, it is in these same realms that the problem first arose, and still lives, moves, and has its being. Prejudice against the gender nonconformists is learned behavior, not inherent to our nature like physics and chemistry are. Nor is it rational behavior in any way, but a cultured, learned emotional reaction with no rational cause.

The scientfically determinable chaos of the subatomic particles is clockwork order by comparison; and I respectfully submit that likening it to this cultural malaise created by humans is an insult to honest subatomic particles! Smile

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"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

PriceRip's picture

@thanatokephaloides

          But I do dispute that this understanding is necessary to the task of obtaining full acceptance ...

          I didn't intend to suggest understanding the QM foundation of physical process was necessary for acceptance ...

          My point is that an understanding the QM foundation of physical process makes it impossible to not accept reality. [Or words that make sense] I give up ...

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@PriceRip

My point is that an understanding the QM foundation of physical process makes it impossible to not accept reality. [Or words that make sense] I give up ...

You needn't give up! Do please remember that we are in fundamental agreement here! The issue, of course, is acceptance of reality, and the fact that the hyper Protestant traditionalists aren't accepting the reality that is right before all of our eyes.

I just don't want to gum up nice, clean quantum physics with the dirty low-down nasties of culture warfare! Smile

So please don't be angry with me, OK?

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

PriceRip's picture

@thanatokephaloides

          When I write about a sufficient condition, but it is read as a necessary condition the exchange degenerates into Buster Keaton calamity. (read Train Wreak)

          This never happens in real life partly because I do not "Lecture From On High" to students. All my "teaching" is from a level "playing field" where students learn by exploring the implications of the material with me. The "feedback" loop doesn't work the same way (if at all) in online communications.

          I think my so very anti-online-classes polemics marked me as a miscreant in the eyes of some administrators.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@PriceRip

I hate this medium ... When I write about a sufficient condition, but it is read as a necessary condition the exchange degenerates into Buster Keaton calamity. (read Train Wreak)

The fault, if there be any, is more likely mine than thine, amice.

This never happens in real life partly because I do not "Lecture From On High" to students. All my "teaching" is from a level "playing field" where students learn by exploring the implications of the material with me. The "feedback" loop doesn't work the same way (if at all) in online communications.

And, as you point out, is altogether too necessary to get any sort of real educating done.

The only reason I advocate online high school as much as I do is that there's a weight in the other pan: the lack of interference by teenage assholes who have lost so much control to "their little heads" that they need to be kept away from all other humans until they calm down a little bit. Unfortunately, instead, it's the educable kids who end up locked away with their computers while the jocks and the bullies rule most brick-and-mortar high schools.

With the limitations of this medium being what we are complaining about, the kids who can be educated and want to be educated are the ones paying the penalty, to all of our detriment.

(Although I've been tempted to try and order K12's Chem course just to get the gear; from what I've been able to discern, they equip kids with a pretty respectable chemistry set!)

I think my so very anti-online-classes polemics marked me as a miscreant in the eyes of some administrators.

You are, however, no miscreant in my eyes, sir!

Even when we dispute with one another, our discussions reflect the best traditions of both of our worlds and of c99p in general. And we represent the best of what TOP threw in the trash when Markos cast the Berners out into utter darkness.

And that's with the medium's limitations! Could you imagine how effective we'd all be without them?

So I say: Be well at Peace with yourself, PR. And know full well you remain at Peace and Friendship with me. Such as we have just done is an occupational hazard of having both heart and brain. And I am certain that neither of us would trade it for anything!

Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

PriceRip's picture

@thanatokephaloides

          fact that the hyper Protestant traditionalists (lots of players) aren't accepting the reality that is right before all of our eyes.

          The reality is that they have no motivation to deal with reality because they have more than 2000 years of logic and great thinkers to support there critically flawed perspective. Everything written pre-1800s or thereabout is grounded in works and thought devoid of critical aspects of more recent understanding.

          People think it is arrogant to point out that we have a much better understanding of reality inaccessible to Socratics, Plato, and Aristotle. Any one of those three living in the intervening 20+ centuries would have produced a much different philosophy. The proof of that statement is obvious once you realize that very process has occurred many times. Over the years philosophers (particularly recent ones like Lawrence Krauss and Sean Carroll) have produced great works that can not be inferred from anything written by the (un)holy trio.

          But to this day academic philosophers continue to worship the likes of Socratics, Plato, and Aristotle. And this allows politicians, clerics, and others to blithely ignore real Reality as they condemn us to a life of misery and strife.

          Be angry with you ‽ My irritation is not with you, nor anyone else at c99p (except for the occasional troll). The irritation I experience is generate from "out there" and from the medium of exchange.

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Anti-transgender statements should not be made by men who cross dress while celebrating their god.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@MrWebster

They're dressing like ancient Greco-Romans. Toga, toga, toga!

Wink

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Bollox Ref's picture

I'm confused. We're all bisexuals?

/s

Growing up, going to Church of England services and then passing by the bookstall with titles like "God Loves You", after all the recriminations about sin? No wonder I'm lapsed CofE.

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Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.