The BLM versus White Progressive Skirmish--aka Primary Wars Redux

I don't have much time so I'm going to be brief. This was meant to be a comment in another diary on the subject at the GOS, but I've decided to put this out here on its own.

This all, to me, seems as it's a Sanders versus Clinton proxy war, with genuine anger and sympathy for the fucked up situation that Sommer Foster had to deal with. I feel horrible for the bullying that she had to endure. No one should have to endure that. No one.

I support BLM. It took me a day or so to get the protest at Netroots Nation, but I eventually got it. I've been subjected to police bullshit all my life. I'm lucky to be alive. Seriously lucky to be alive.

These are a small sample of what I've dealt with--simply for Driving While Black:
1st time- Cop claimed I had not come to stop when a bus was stopping on the other side of an undivided highway. The bus wasn't stopped, their sign wasn't even out. Yet myself and a black woman were ticketed. We both agreed it was total bullshit. That was $187.00 that I'll never see again.

2nd time- Driving on a wet curved off-ramp from the highway about 5 mph below the posted 30 mph speed limit a half mile from my apartment complex. I was driving an SUV and the roads were wet and I didn't want to flip my sled. Cop claimed I was speeding at 50 mph. Used verbal jujitsu and the fact that he didn't even have a radar gun in his patrol vehicle to get out of the situation. He thought I was playing loud hip hop music--but I was listening to house music at respectable level.

3rd time- Not a few months after the 2nd incident, I got pulled over because the cop also thought I was playing loud hip hop music with a lot of bass. I showed him the CD that I was playing--it was full of house music and my music wasn't even loud. I've got factory speakers. Same area as my apartment complex, which was in Maitland, Florida--a bedroom community about 10 minutes north of Orlando off of I-4. The police there have a reputation for being dicks.

I've also been harassed while walking with white women from police (which happens often because my best friend is a white woman). I've deliberately avoided encounters with police, even though I have friends on the police force in meatspace. I live in a predominantly black neighborhood--edge of Parramore, the western side of Downtown Orlando.

It's not easy being a black man in this country, or anywhere else for that matter. I am a human target. One of many. Sandra Bland, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, and countless others weren't so lucky.

Hopefully the Sanders, Clinton, and O'Malley campaigns get that this is a national emergency in the African American community. From what I've seen from their collective reactions, they have. It's up to us to organize and get all levels of government to address the senseless murder of African Americans.

Unfortunately I'm seeing a proxy war on this site (note: "this site" is refering to Daily Kos) and elsewhere that solves nothing. Everyone loses if that what this situation devolves into. I do not want to lose this. Because I, and millions of others like me, are still human targets every time we leave our homes--and in some cases when we're living in our homes.

We should be supporting Black Lives Matters without any asides, without any agenda save getting sweeping reforms in our law enforcement apparatus (from the cop on the beat, rigged grand jury processes, sentencing, the prison industrial complex, and judges), dealing with the rampant and systemic racism in our law enforcement apparatus, and most importantly...saving the lives of African Americans from the oppressive grip of corrupt law enforcement.

By the way, I'm a Sanders supporter. I'm glad that he gets BLM. Now let's get the rest of the country to get it without tearing at each others' throats. Because we all lose if that happens. I'm tired of reading news stories that make my blood boil to the point where I have to chain smoke to calm down.

Peace.

The BLM versus White Progressive Skirmish-aka Primary Wars Redux

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JayRaye's picture

the best writing I've seen on this entire issue so far

My frustration is in not being able to do more. In my own neighborhood, I keep my eyes open. When a young black man was arrested in our apartment complex, I went and got one of my neighbors and asked her to be a witness with me. We stood across the parking lot and watched.

That isn't much, but it's something I feel I can do even if it doesn't solve the larger issue. That young man needed to be arrested and the cops were professional even tho the young man was completely out of control. Thank God they didn't beat him or kill him.

The impunity needs to end. The impunity to harass and arrest people of color over nothing, the impunity to beat and murder people and then lie about it. But I am at a loss as to how to make that happen. Law enforcement seems to have all the power right now. And we need to figure out how to change that.

Even in Minneapolis were I worked with a group many years ago to establish a Civilian Review Board and we were actually successful. What I hear now is that Civilian Review has no teeth. I don't live there anymore so I don't really know.

It's all frustrating and despairing.

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons

thank you Cybrestrike. I promoted this to the front page, because of the possibility that someone not familiar with cossposting may read this, I added one small edit where you reference "this site". If you have any problem with the edit, let me know and I'll remove it. Thanks again.

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cybrestrike's picture

...and the promotion to the front page. While I'm a writer by trade, we do have a tendency to miss things. Cheers!

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mimi's picture

I have a black son and came once in a situation to call the police, because he "couldn't handle his life anymore". It was me who had to calm down the police outside the house literally begging the police officer to not enter my house with the gun pulled out, telling them he is unarmed but out of himself. It took a while. The young white police officer was very nervous and anxious. They called a "fire truck" and an "ambulance". Among them was one black police officer. When they entered the house they were able to calm my son and the black officer involved my son in a conversation. He got my son to calm and apparently my son started to talk and explain his situation and why he was completely out of himself and angry beyond reason. The black police officer came back to me and explained that my son's situation was understandably making him very angry and he offered me and him a solution that we both couldn't refuse. I think, myself and the black officer were able to handle this without damaging or hurting any of us or he himself. I doubt very much, it would have been resolved like this without the black officer's sensibility and experience.

My son came in a couple of situations before being followed by police because he drove a car with his white girlfriend somewhere in the midwest in a territory he didn't know. Quite scary. He got into a dispute with a white officer over his dog and the officer complained about him being and sent him to court. Three native Hawaiian officers were silent witness and they were afraid to say anything, just looked very sad to the ground, one shaking his head in disbelief. The dog was essential to my son's emotional well being at that time. Like a service dog for a Vet, just not recognized as such.

So, from that time on, my son reacts almost hyper-hysterically, if I drive in a way that could get a police car pulling me over and he takes speeding signs and stop signs and lane crossing religiously serious, so much so that it goes on my nerves, but that's what it is.

I consider the disputes I am not reading anymore on the gos as distracting from the real issues.

Kudos for these words:

Unfortunately I'm seeing a proxy war on this site and elsewhere that solves nothing. Everyone loses if that what this situation devolves into. I do not want to lose this. Because I, and millions of others like me, are still human targets every time we leave our homes--and in some cases when we're living in our homes.

We should be supporting Black Lives Matters without any asides, without any agenda save getting sweeping reforms in our law enforcement apparatus (from the cop on the beat, rigged grand jury processes, sentencing, the prison industrial complex, and judges), dealing with the rampant and systemic racism in our law enforcement apparatus, and most importantly...saving the lives of African Americans from the oppressive grip of corrupt law enforcement.

By the way, I'm a Sanders supporter. I'm glad that he gets BLM. Now let's get the rest of the country to get it without tearing at each others' throats. Because we all lose if that happens. I'm tired of reading news stories that make my blood boil to the point where I have to chain smoke to calm down.

Agree fully with your words. Now get outta here and do something ... swimming for example... to cool down your blood. Don't given the digital warriors the satisfaction of getting your blood into a "pressure cooker" mode.

Peace. And thanks for writing this.

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gulfgal98's picture

Thank you so very much for cutting through the bull shit and getting to the heart of the real issue.

I am a big supporter of Black Lives Matter. What angered me about eclectablog's diary was how he used that incident at NN to smear Bernie Sanders, and by extension, his supporters. IMO, his diary actually diverted attention away from the blatant racism that still permeates this country and the daily harassment and issues that blacks face.

While I am an old white woman, I have tried very hard to understand what black people, especially black men, face every day. And I cannot totally get it simply because my own experience in this country is very different. Yes, I am old enough to have experienced discrimination due to my gender, but it is not the same as blatant racism that you and many other people of color, especially blacks, have had to undergo on a daily basis often in fear of your lives. But that does not mean that I cannot listen to you and others and try to understand. This is why what you are posting today is so important and why we need to hear more of your voice. I truly appreciate your sharing your experiences with us here and I hope you will do so more often in the future. I value reading your posts very much.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

snoopydawg's picture

Used it as an opportunity to smear the Bernie supporters.
She keeps getting pass after pass on the issues that Bernie is addressing.
I live in a very white people dominated state and have never had a problem with black people the way most people I grew up with did.
Today on my walk there was a black couple walking across my path looking glum.
So I smiled and said " hi, how are you two doing tonight?" and their faces lit up with smiles.
But for some reason, I felt guilt. I don't know why and I'm not sure if my comment even makes sense.
?

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

smiley7's picture

well said. You've clearly put BLM where it should be, a priority for everyone and not an issue to be co-opted by political campaigns.
Thank you for sharing with c99.

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Shahryar's picture

I think we all support BlackLivesMatter.

I, for one, think the direction of the anger should start with the police and the government that allows the police to continually get away with murder.

It would make little sense to turn to your female friend and grill her about where she stands on the out-of-control police departments. To grill her, then shout at her if her comments didn't mirror what you were thinking, because she's not the real problem. I know Bernie's not your *best* friend but he's not the enemy, or at least not the biggest enemy.

I guess the NN thing was good practice for the confrontations with those who have the power to do something about it. I sincerely hope it was just the beginning.

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Unabashed Liberal's picture

a white woman, in my early sixties, who (thankfully) was raised by parents who were actually old enough--they were middle-aged when I was born--to have seen [my Father] the aftermath of a lynching as a very young child, and who passed that horrific experience on to their children in order to teach them about the perniciousness, toxicity, and pure evil of racial prejudice and hatred.

You say,

Hopefully the Sanders, Clinton, and O'Malley campaigns get that this is a national emergency in the African American community. From what I've seen from their collective reactions, they have. It's up to us to organize and get all levels of government to address the senseless murder of African Americans.

Couldn't have said it better, myself.

Mollie


"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."--Author Unknown
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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

snoopydawg's picture

But I love your sig. Ain't that the truth?

"Dogs leave footprints on our hearts "

" I hope someday I become the person my dog thinks I am ".

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Unabashed Liberal's picture

like the 'sayings' that you quoted, as well.

Wink

Mollie


"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."--Author Unknown
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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

joe shikspack's picture

your essay puts the issue in the proper context - we are in the midst of an emergency.

people's lives depend on our actions. the faster we can act, the more lives that can be saved. it is time for "our" politicians to respond to the urgency of the situation and do something about it. we all need to do more to pressure our "representatives" to take action.

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MarilynW's picture

we really need to hear.

I live in Canada where police brutality exists, but nothing like in the US where there is a police war against blacks.
This war has to end.

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To thine own self be true.

Unabashed Liberal's picture

of our respective lawmakers to take action.

But, regarding the question of "why" major politicians like the President, Holder, FSC, etc., have yet to have been directly confronted by BLM, it is my "guess" that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for them to do so.

(Short of a Netroots Nation type of scenario.)

Notice the Tweet, below, of members of the MSM national press corps being treated like cattle by FSC's campaign.

Maggie Haberman Tweet, Clinton New Hampshire Parade Rope Line, July 4, 2015, Getty Images.png

I know that I was absolutely aghast when this photo showed up on my Twitter Feed over the Fourth Of July weekend. Heck, I still can't believe that candidates/politicians can get away with this behavior.

I suppose they do it, because they can.

Mollie


"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."--Author Unknown
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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

snoopydawg's picture

been was to all just leave and stop covering her and her campaign. That was the most disgusting thing I've ever seen.
She won't let them into many of her 'private' fundraising speeches and other events, so I'd love to see them flip her the proverbial bird Smile

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Isn't the righteousness of the BLM cause.
Everyone agrees that too many blacks are shot and that cops profile blacks for harassment, and that this has to stop.

It's the tactics where the dispute occurs.
The problem is that while BLM people are hearing criticism of the tactics but jump to the conclusion that it as criticism of the cause.

Which explains why I haven't seen a single BLM person say, "Gee, maybe we didn't use the best tactics/didn't pick the best people to protest." Considering the sudden conflict with people who are sympathetic to cause, you would think that someone would pause to question tactics.
Instead the rhetoric has gotten even more strident. I've seen a lot of "doubling-down" by BLM people on DKos.

This is a big problem because its very rare for a political movement to never make tactical errors, and history is littered with righteous causes that failed due to poor tactics.

If BLM is simply unable to admit making a mistake, then BLM isn't long for this world.

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MarilynW's picture

imply that anyone is on the side of authority here, "authority" also meaning those who didn't like the tactics. The enemy is out there so why so much infighting? There are some people who encourage it.

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To thine own self be true.

Wingnut confession: for years, my default reaction was "should have followed the cops orders", "shouldn't have resisted", "just do what the cop says and nobody gets hurt" etc. The cop who swore he felt his "life was in danger" always got the benefit of the doubt. In recent years however, the ubiquitous camera has proven that there are a lot more racist asshole cops than I thought. There have been enough videos that we don't need more discussion - changes have to be made. FWIW - there's no pushback from the wingnut online world - even most rwnj's are tired of trying to defend gross racism and abuse of authority on film. This particular posting is more about the dkos meta re BLM, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents in. BTW, we're neighbors! (I'm in Deltona)
Black lives matter.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

Sunday night in Cleveland

A transit police officer has pepper-sprayed a crowd in Cleveland protesting the arrest of a 14-year-old at a Black Lives Matter conference inspired by police brutality.

The incident occurred near Cleveland State University in the city’s downtown where the first Black Lives Matter conference was taking place. More than 1,200 participants spent the weekend organizing and discussing a range of social justice issues.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/27/white-officer-pepper-spra...

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
elenacarlena's picture

explain to Bernie supporters on the Gos why it might be considered racist to object to the BLM protestors, and of course I am taking a beating. It feels much more calm over here.

Here's a summary of my thoughts, FWIW. Feedback welcome (nicely please, I'm bruised!): Blacks feel the situation regarding police brutality is so bad that it's an emergency situation that needs to be the number one issue. Politicians have not made this the number one issue. When you ignore an emergency, don't take a dying person to the ER, and you are white and that person is black, they might think you ignore them because you're a racist. It's also possible you're clueless. But when called on your ignorance, it's up to you to explain how you're not a racist. This "How dare anyone think we're racists!?!" attitude is hurting Bernie, who I support too BTW. Why can't people just say, "We heard you, we're not racist but we overlooked something important, we're fixing it"? I don't know if people are secret Hillary supporters or just like pie fights, but I don't see how they seemingly can't understand why, regardless of underlying intentions or true character, it looks bad to ignore people dying.

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But when called on your ignorance, it's up to you to explain how you're not a racist.

So racist until proven innocent then.
Do you not see the danger where this line of thinking leads?

I don't see how they seemingly can't understand why, regardless of underlying intentions or true character, it looks bad to ignore people dying.

That would go for most of the people on DKos, including a lot of the BLM supporters, that continue to not care about our racist War on Terror.

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elenacarlena's picture

anyway. Maybe I can't express myself well enough. It's that something has already occurred that can seem on its face to be racist, i.e., ignoring a major issue in this country, that of police brutality, that results in a lot of black people dying. And it's every politician. It's not like Bernie made police brutality his number one issue and then people accused him of racism. He barely addressed it, as I understand it, that was the problem. Same with everyone else running for office. I am convinced Bernie emphasizes economic issues because this will improve everyone's fate in many ways and that is why I continue to support him. I am relieved that he has discussed police brutality issues in the days since, because I don't want there to be any problems with his candidacy, we need him. But police brutality is one of the issues that won't be budged much by improved income inequality. People will be better able to afford lawyers, so maybe it will help, but there are more direct cures.

But please understand I'm not trying to start a pie fight over here. So please feel free to give an example. Where is the slippery slope in this line of thinking?

I totally agree with you about the War on Terror and am glad Bernie is something of a peacenik.

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The slippery slope is accusing someone of something if they hadn't addressed an issue important to you.

For instance, you may not be aware that the most oppressed minority in the United States isn't blacks, it's Native Americans.
If you did not know that then you would have to prove that you aren't racist (according to you statement above).
Does that seem right to you? It doesn't to me.
And then the next step is if we disagree about who is more oppressed. Then both of us are open to accusations of racism by the other. And on down the rabbit hole we go....

My rule of thumb is: someone is racist when they do or say something hateful to another ethnic group because they are different.

If you start including racism according to what someone doesn't do or say then even the most benign forms of white privilege becomes racism, and then the word racism starts to lose any meaning. Which is where DKos is heading.

On a related note, the issue of police brutality is not just a black issue. Far more whites are killed by police than blacks, and no one seems to talk about latinos and other minorities being abused by cops. I don't know why that gets ignored, but its a stupid political mistake by BLM.
Even as a white male, I feel threatened by cops. It's in my own interests to see BLM win, or at least make progress on this issue. But BLM actively rejects allies. It only wants direct supporters. That's a huge mistake because the first time BLM runs into a controversy (i.e. one of its leaders gets caught doing something stupid), and it WILL happen, they will need allies. But BLM won't have any, and because of that we will all lose. Even people who don't care about BLM will lose if BLM loses.

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elenacarlena's picture

But I'm going to sleep on it. Good night, all.

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The data, such as it is, shows whites are killed by cops most often; Based on share of population, AA and Native Americans are tied as the most disproportionately impacted. The young and mentally ill, regardless of ethnicity, are at the top of the list too.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

elenacarlena's picture

Let's not talk about Bernie for a minute, let's talk about me. Now, if I go along in my day and don't mention BLM because I'm wrapped up in other things, then probably no one's going to accuse me of being a racist. That would be guilty until proven innocent and get to the point of absurdity. But. If I make a public statement, whether because I'm running for office or for any other reason, that I think the top 3 issues in this country are, say, the economy, climate change, and health care, then I might be in trouble. I purposely chose to leave something out. If you are someone who thinks the number one issue in this country is police brutality, and given all the videos lately that should be uppermost in everyone's minds, you're going to wonder, why didn't I mention that? And if I'm white and you're black, given the fact that you think this is a national emergency that I am ignoring, you're probably going to think, "I bet she's a racist". So let's say you say that to me.

Now I can either choose to respond with making my reputation and my hurt feelings the uppermost issue, as in "How dare you say I'm a racist? I'm a good person! I've done all these wonderful things in the past!" Or I can choose to respond with making your emergency the uppermost issue, and in the process explain how and why I'm not a racist, something like, "You know, I've watched those videos and they hurt my heart, but for some reason I didn't think of that when I was listing my top three issues. Now that you've brought it up, I think that should tie with the economy as the top two issues." And then I change my list accordingly.

It's not a matter of proof. You're right, I can't prove my innocence, no one can. People will either take me at face value or not. There's nothing I can do about that. Maybe there will still be a small group that says, "No, if you're not putting it as issue number one, you're more concerned with an economy that hurts you than a police culture that hurts me." But if I were in that situation, I'd continue to engage about the issues. I'd probably try to work out a compromise, such as, "Why can't we work on both at the same time?" Maybe at some point it would get through to me that the nature of police brutality has become so bad that it is an emergency issue that must be addressed before anything else can proceed. Or maybe we'd never agree on that point. But the best engagement with this community would be to come together to work on police brutality issues. The minute I try to focus on my hurt feelings, I once again look kind of racist. Because hurt feelings aren't nearly as serious as cracked skulls. If I empathize with their feelings, I'm not going to be focused on mine.

So there are two issues here: One is that none of the campaigns were focused on police brutality as the number one issue. Some of them barely discussed it or wrote about it at all. Second is that, after angry black protests, it looks nearly as bad if the only response is, "Well, now you've gone and hurt my feelings and called me names." It's not about me!

Where Bernie is concerned, the first issue has ben resolved. There are other candidates who still need to face this issue, though. Where the second is concerned, after initially responding in a disconcerted way, Bernie also resolved that issue. My concern is that if the second keeps happening among his supporters, many blacks are going to be driven away from the Sanders campaign, which will hurt him of course. If we instead come together to consider what we can do about police brutality, then blacks will mostly be more interested in the Sanders campaign and get behind him in support.

You are correct that police brutality affects everyone. But it affects minority communities more, thus is seen as more of a black issue. And you have probably read, as I have, some of the right-wingers who are unconcerned about police brutality, who clearly think it's OK because they're mostly doing it to "those people," the "thugs". The raw numbers are actually higher as far as white people affected, but the percentages are much higher in minority communities. But the law enforcement supporters try to tell themselves, and thus the rest of us, "If you just do what you're told, you'll be fine." Less scary for them that way.

It is also true that economic and all the other issues listed also damage minority communities disproportionately. But if I want the black vote and most blacks want me to de-emphasize those in favor of the police brutality issue, why not?

So see, I'm not trying to say that Bernie and/or his supporters are racist. They/we are almost certainly less racist than other politicians' supporters. I'm trying to say that it's a perception that we can change with a simple change in tone and focus. When our outrage is directed at the label rather than the violence, we perpetuate the problem.

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You obviously feel very deeply about this issue.

That being said, you must be very, very disappointed with the American public because most people don't share your level of concern.
gallup.png

At this point you have to make a choice: do you really want to assume that an overwhelming majority of Americans are racist? I don't.
What's more, do you really think politicians are going to prioritize their issues in a way that doesn't reflect the concerns of the voting public?
Personally I chose to look at it like this.

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MarilynW's picture

it probably wasn't on the list. It's nothing important after all, air & water, who cares about that?

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To thine own self be true.

elenacarlena's picture

The vagueness! The lack of awareness! Or as your link says, the BS! No wonder Trump is leading.

Would I assume the majority of people polled are racist? No. But probably some people who watch police brutality videos every day, read things like Shaun King's diaries on DKos, and are plugged into that community, would. Because to them it's the most important thing in the world and it's all over their media, how can people not know? They must know. So how can they not care? People are dying. But it's mostly our people. So that must be why they don't care. Can you see the thought process that might take them there?

I would like to see politicians lead, rather than follow the polls and pander. But yes, I realize it's not likely to happen. Everybody tries to paint themselves as an outsider, somehow unrelated to this government people are so dissatisfied with, for example.

All we can do is try to educate. I hope this poll will look a lot more issue focused by next year.

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I can see it, but it doesn't make it right. Perhaps you can explain why people at dailykos are still attacking Bernie's civil right's credentials and accusing his supporters of being racists or making racist comments? The more successful and/or vindicated Bernie becomes, the nastier they get. I think we are just seeing the tip of how toxic dailykos is going to get.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/24/1405466/-Here-s-Bernie-The-Day-...

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

The internet is the most awesome media so far developed by man (except for books).
However, it is far from perfect. The anonymity of the medium leads abuses. Disputes automatically get escalated in ways that you would never see in real life. Hyperbole works on blogs in ways that a debate in real life never would.
All it takes is a few people with insecurities and/or anger issues and they can ruin a group or site.

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elenacarlena's picture

For quite a while the comments were great! Then it all went downhill. Ouch. I had to stop reading.

But I've seen some of the same names cropping up often. I wonder if there are a lot of people involved, or a small group commenting often. I might start keeping a list.

No, I can't explain everybody. I think if people didn't feel supported by him, they had a right to express that. But he came back and showed his support, and posting videos like that shows his support. I think he has handled it very well. But if you hear somebody saying that they don't think that, give them a listen. I could have missed something. And before you get defensive with them, hug a puppy. Wink

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That group at dkos does not have a right to "express" themselves even when they're belligerent, misdirected, and refuse to stop; and everybody else Is not required to comply with their demands in order to not be called a racist. I am done with this conversation. The sun doesn't revolve around dailykos or BLM, and whether they like it or not is irrelevant.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

elenacarlena's picture

them in their place, and watch the comment wars heat up.

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shaharazade's picture

like all polls, breaks issues down into categories that separate and pigeon hole 'issues'. It's also binary and life is not binary. The winning 'issue' dissatisfaction with government covers a large swath of issues. There is also a bias in the names given to the issues like terrorism or ethical moral family decline. How are 'foreign policy' or Isis and Iraq separate issues? The poll defines the issues and it's based on the bs. that the propagandist's would have you believe are separate. National security means what? killer cops and the military armed to the teeth and given license to kill both here and globally? I'm not saying that this society isn't racist it is. Is the 'public' overwhelming racist? Maybe it is but this poll does not shed much light on the systemic racism in our society instead it seems to show a breakdown of issues that keep the great divide in neat little boxes that the pollsters have defined.

I have a problem with putting 'race relationships' as a separate category and not offering any choices that reflect the interconnected underlying causes like poverty hunger and homelessness and the fact that because of terrorism we have no human or civil rights no rule of law or constraints on the cops or government. A lot of people taking this poll are going to go for the first three vague measures of their discontent. Plus it's a Gallup Poll, their demographics are notoriously inconsistent and skewed. They say this is open ended, so who coded this sucker and decided which category the respondents concerns belonged in. I really didn't like the family decline bs. all this poll tells me is that the majority who took this poll have been hornswoogled by the narrative that the overwhelming majority of the public are subjected to every day.

Ah I just clicked you BS. onion link. Sorry I too look at it like your link at the end. Perhaps our racist culture that allows killing black people cannot be changed by economics or education but the federal justice system could and should rein in the killer cops and out of lawlessness of states cities and police forces. Of course that would require restoring the rule of law and those universal inalienable human and civil rights. As for #black lives matter and NNN I applaud the protestors. I do not trust or believe that the so called partisan Dem. at either NNN or dkos are 'progressive' if they were they would fight actively for getting some real 'issues' addressed including #blacklivesmatter and the systemic violence unleashed on African Americans by the goon squads of law and order. Instead their busy supporting the Democratic establishment statuo quo and misdirecting fear and anger to their only issue 'Republicans will win'. They refuse to look at what's going on and realizing that lesser evils still will kill poc with impunity.

What exactly is the difference between being arrested for "idleness" and being arrested for "loitering in a designated drug-free zone"? What's the difference between an arrest for "mischief" and an arrest for "disorderly conduct" or "refusing to obey a lawful order"? If it's anything more than a semantic distinction, it's not much more of one. Law-and-order types like to lecture black America about how it can avoid getting killed by "respecting authority" and treating arresting cops like dangerous dogs or bees.

That's why the issue isn't how Sandra Bland died, but why she was stopped and detained in the first place. It's profiling, sure, but it's even worse than that. It's a systematic campaign to harass people, using misdemeanors and violations as battering ram – a campaign that's been going on forever, and against which there's little defense. When the law can be stretched to mean almost anything, obeying it is no magic bullet.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/sandra-bland-was-murdered-2015...
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

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Shahryar's picture

it's weird guilt-tripping.

Remember when Congress made the Bush tax cuts permanent and Dems voted for it because it would extend unemployment benefits *temporarily*? And we were told if we disagreed then we didn't care about the unemployed.

Markos' famous NSA tracking calls is a white privilege issue.

Talking about economic justice shows racism because it doesn't mention murdered people by name.

I'm not sure how to phrase it so it comes out as understanding differing viewpoints but basically there are lots of issues that are very important and it's only a certain type that pooh-poohs some critical stuff.

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gulfgal98's picture

Whether it is a person or an issue, they attack it at its strength and by virtue of twisting it, turn it into a liability. It is disgusting! And those people who are doing it to Bernie are doing it because it is a strength of his and another one of Hillary's Achilles heel. I have yet to see any of them point out as to how she is better in her life long commitment to civil rights than Sanders. She isn't, so they need to take him down. She keeps getting a pass on everything because she is not out in the open actually talking to real people who have not been pre-screened and filtered by their wallets.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

elenacarlena's picture

swiftboating, do you? Do you mean the continued attempt to pick on Bernie? Because I agree, that could well be.

I do hope BLM shows up at Hillary events. I think she'd be much worse for minorities in this country. Many of the minorities and feminists that I've met at DKos are also backing Bernie. Hillary's corporate ties may be filling her war chest, but they're weighing her down. I never have figured out why anyone thinks she has a good civil rights record.

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gulfgal98's picture

I thought they did it when the two most high profile speakers were present as a way to air their grievances against the Democratic party. I posted as much both here and at dkos.

But the longer that the Hillary people continue to use it as a way to paint Bernie and his followers as racist, I am starting to question if the BLM protest was a setup by the Clinton people. And I put nothing past the Clintons.

I am starting to wonder why they only chose to protest Clinton's political rivals for the nomination especially since Sanders had spoken to the issue of BLM the day before. Regardless of the motivations of the protesters themselves, the motivations of Clinton's supporters is definitely a form of swiftboating.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

elenacarlena's picture

else, "You don't support my issues, you must not care about me, you must be ____" And we could turn around and say the same.

And on the other hand, you are under no requirement to live your life for me and vice versa.

So I think each case needs to be evaluated on its own merit. Just like any request for help, you have the right to say no. Then sometimes you'll decide to say yes. And when we show we're listening, where possible, even if we do end up saying no, it might dial the hurt back a little on the other side. Of course there are people who are just trying to push buttons. So context and tone help us sort that out.

But IF we want these people on our side, how are we going to do that by getting defensive? It's OK with me if we don't want these people on our side. I think the majority of the BLM was happy with Sanders' response and hasn't kept up the anger and hurt. So the few people left who continue to pooh pooh, I'm not too worried about them. But even in the early going, there were Bernie supporters who responded very negatively, and that could have driven everybody away. That's the response that I was initially trying to explain we might learn to handle better.

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shaharazade's picture

not supporting the #black lives matter movement and agenda. I see people who have isolated their ''issues" and elevated them above any solidarity or any meaningful political action. White privileged or not people cannot know what it's like to be a black person in our society. When black people are murdered daily by the state how does telling some white person that they don't care when they do, help stop the killing by rabid cops with unlimited power or even help get rid of the racist apartheid USA style system? Supporting Dem. pols even African American ones who offer no real relief, justice or equality and refuse to stop incarcerating, impoverishing, and killing black people and all poc seems to contradict the 'you must not care about me...' or feel my pain properly therefore your a racist.

Of course I can't feel what these people do but believe me neither does Obama, Hillary, Holder/Lynch or any of the Dem. powers that be. If they did they would use their power under law, the laws they have declared unenforceable quaint pieces of paper to stop this murderous rampage and the conditions that make poc and the poor victims of their greed, power lust, fight for human and civil rights and the rule of law and make black lives matter. Actually these people don't give a rats ass about any lives including the planets. This is not law and order it's just a out of control police state . So why settle for having white privileged people feel their pain and worst blaming them for not supporting the likes of Obama and Hillary and their agenda and policies that mean us all harm. Instead they empower the Republicans and enforce the same racist agenda with out the blatant theocracy.

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lotlizard's picture

People feel nothing about, and show zero solidarity with, victims of US / Saudi / Israeli wars, yet expect solidarity and sympathy when their own ethnic group is targeted? Hmmm … you have to wonder. What did they think was going to happen? Don't they know what Pastor Niemoller said?

That would go for most of the people on DKos, including a lot of the BLM supporters, that continue to not care about our racist War on Terror.

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Unabashed Liberal's picture

I would refuse to engage on this subject (at DKos), at all.

I would flat-out ignore slanderous/unfounded comments. I truly believe that the most productive approach (to dealing with belligerence/lies) is to absolutely refuse to engage the diarists/commenters, at this point in time. What hasn't already been said, that could reasonably be presented as a defense?

I'd leave those folks 'talking to the wall.'

(Now, there are those who like to post recipes, etc., as a statement. I never have, but guess that might be an option.)

True, this tactic may not put an end to ridiculous diaries the very next day, but there is no way that they can/will continue indefinitely if the diaries/comments are completely ignored by Sanders' supporters.

Hey, why not consider organizing a 'boycott' of these detrimental/dishonest diaries, working with the "Bernie News Service" (or whatever it is called) dude, with gooderservice, and many more of Bernie's most ardent supporters.

After all, both Clintons are corporatist DLC/Third Way/New Dem/No Labels Democrats to the nth degree. That's what I'd go after!

When you do that, Senator Sanders wins hands-down. Remember, many FSC supporters know this, and will probably continue to attempt to distract folks--but don't let them.

Off my soapbox . . .

Wink

Gotta run 'the B' out, but got more to say on the BLM Movement. I almost always agree with BAR's analysis, but I think that Bruce might be wrong in his latest piece. I'll explain "why," later.

Mollie


"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."--Author Unknown
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elenacarlena's picture

If I feel like they're being sincere, I try to engage. If they're clearly trolls, I leave them.

If I can't tell, I'd probably fall on the side of engagement. Maybe we'd win over a few more, but mostly so that an occasional lurker doesn't get the wrong impression. Sometimes people think that unchallenged assertions must be the truth. DKos gets what, a million reads a day? And maybe a tenth of that are regulars?

OTOH, maybe a boycott would shut the conversation down and ultimately expose it to the fewest people. If people wanted to boycott at this point, because the issues already have been thoroughly covered as you say, I'd go along with the majority opinion.

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