My Face Book Response to Maryscott O'Connor Attacking Sanders' Supporters
Some you older TOP exiles might remember Maryscott O'Connor, a very popular diarist from the days before Markos banned her for being too sensationalist and bombastic for his tastes (I suppose those are as good euphemisms as any for his actions). I met Maryscott in person at the anti-war march in Washington, D.C, in September of 2005, and I rather liked her company. She was flamboyant as her writing style, but a delight to be around. When she founded her own site, My Left Wing, I posted there for a few years before it gradually died out. When I got on Facebook, I friended her, though I rarely interact with anyone there other than my family. Today, I came across this post by her to which I simply had to respond. Here is her complete statement for the sake of context before you read my response:
Hillary Clinton and Debbie Wasserman-Schultz have been in the receiving end of some of the most disgusting, misogynistic, sexist, grotesque attacks I've seen in a while...
From LIBERALS.
I've seen them both called every horrifying name in the book -- names generally used by vile woman-haters, names that are supposed to be synonyms for the female genitalia...
BY LIBERALS.
So, listen... If you happen to BE one of those so-called "liberals" who has participated in this disgusting trend lately... Unfriend me. Because when you call Hillary Clinton a cunt, you're calling me a cunt. When you call Ms. W-S a bitch, you're calling me a bitch.
Same with "whore." Et cetera.If you have participated in this vilification of these two DEMOCRATIC WOMEN who have spent their entire adult lives working for the DEMOCRATIC PARTY... If you call them REPUBLICANS because they don't fulfill YOUR idea of what a Democrat is... Please unfriend me. Do it now. Because if THEY are Republicans, then I'M a Republican.
I have OFTEN disagreed with one or both of them. They do not embody my idea of the ideal liberal. Sometimes they infuriate me. That DOESN'T mean they're not Democrats. It simply means they're not doing or saying what I want them to.
But as an ADULT, I recognise the difference between a Republican and a Democrat who's simply not doing what I want them to do.
Seriously. Unfriend me. I don't want to see another person accusing lifelong Democrats of being Republicans on this page. It makes me sick. It's puerile. It's definitely NOT liberal.
After reading that I felt I had to say something, so here is what I wrote as a reply to Maryscott's rant (with some added paragraph breaks to make it easier to read, and a few edits to clean up typos, grammatical errors and additions to improve clarity):
My 20 year old daughter (an biomedical engineering undergrad at a top science and technology school) has been called these names (stupid bitch, cunt, etc,), as well as others such as sexist, racist, misogynist, a self-loathing woman hater and someone who has a special place in hell reserved [for her] by Hillary supporters because she supports Bernie Sanders. Indeed, Ms. Clinton was present when Madeleine Albright made that particularly unjust and sexist remark, and Clinton laughed when Albright said it, as if it was some big joke to demean younger women such as my daughter because they chose to exercise their independent judgment on who best represented their interests in this election. Young women such as my daughter were also told by famed Clinton surrogate, Gloria Steinem, that they only supported Sanders because they wanted to be "where the boys are," which [is] about as sexist a remark as I can imagine. I trust you will condemn the attacks on my daughter and other women by your fellow Hillary supporters with equal fervor.
As for me, I've seen far more venom directed at Sanders and his supporters for alleged thought or speech crimes than I have seen coming from Sanders' supporters [toward Clinton and her followers]. When lies were spread about Bernie's record as a civil rights activist, I saw no apology or remorse from Clinton people. When he was called a racist and a communist by Clinton surrogates I saw no apologies or remorse from Clinton fans. When Wendell Pierce, a Clinton supporter, was arrested for battery after beating a a woman because she was a Sanders' supporter at a hotel in Atlanta, did anyone on the [Sanders] side come forward to condemn his actions as evidence of a penchant for violence or sexism or misogyny by Clinton supporters or the Clinton campaign? No. When a black female non-violent protestor was physically removed from a Hillary fundraiser for merely asking Ms. Clinton to apologize for her "super predators" remarks from the 90's, I saw no one suggest Clinton was a racist or acted violently for doing so.
I think, on the whole, the media has given Ms. Clinton and her supporters and surrogates far more latitude to spread lies, slanders and attacks on Sanders and his supporters than vice versa. Even today, almost a week after Snopes declared the chair throwing incident at the Nevada Convention false, I still see that lie being repeated in the media, even on NPR. I see dangerous and foolish comments made [by prominent Democratic figures] that people were in fear for their lives when they were on a dais surrounded by Las Vegas police, police who arrested no one for anything that happened at that convention, even after Clinton surrogates such as Senator Boxer went out of her way to taunt and condescend [to] Sanders' delegates for objecting to the last minute rule changes that were made, which gave the Nevada convention chair the authority to decide all matters on voice votes, to disqualify 58 Sanders delegates despite the credentials they brought to the convention as proof of their right to be admitted, and who refused to allow any motions regarding the rules changes to be brought to the floor for a vote, at one point cutting off the mike of one of the Democratic candidates for the House of Representatives.
For days these accusations of violence have been [spread] against Sanders' supporters without any proof, video or otherwise, and used by the DNC and Debbie Wasserman Schultz as reason to declare that non-violent marches and rallies by Sanders' volunteers, which have long been planned to coincide with the Democratic Convention, [are likely to include] "dangerous individuals" with a "penchant for violence," and that Bernie himself is "inciting violence" even though his own statement after the [Nevada] convention said, and I quote:
"Party leaders in Nevada, for example, claim that the Sanders campaign has a ‘penchant for violence.’ That is nonsense. Our campaign has held giant rallies all across this country, including in high-crime areas, and there have been zero reports of violence. Our campaign of course believes in non-violent change and it goes without saying that I condemn any and all forms of violence, including the personal harassment of individuals."
I like you Mary Scott, and [I] supported you when Kos banned you from his site, and for a long time promoted your site and posted there. I still consider you a friend. But I fail to see how the continued escalation of these charges against Bernie Sanders and his supporters is helping your preferred candidate. On the contrary, it is driving many of them away. My daughter for one, a decision she came to on her own because the first I heard of it was when she asked me via a text message if it was okay not to vote for someone whose values you did not support just because they won the Democratic nomination. I told her that she was an adult and it was her decision to make, not mine, and she did.
And I doubt she is the only one. And mind you this was over a month before the latest violation of democratic principles by the Nevada Democratic Party. I am dismayed at all the animus I have seen directed at Sanders and his followers. I recall President Obama making an extra effort to reach out to Clinton and her supporters in 2008 to unify the party, and indeed bringing her, his most ardent and vehement opponent, who more than once during that campaign [said] things about him that I considered at best [to be] in poor taste, if not outright prejudicial, [into his cabinet]. Yet I see no effort on the part of Ms. Clinton or her campaign to try to repair the breach and unify the party behind her candidacy. Instead, I have seen only a relentless and increasing drumbeat of attacks, slanders and falsehoods directed toward the Senator and those who back him by DNC officials and Clinton campaign surrogates over the last several weeks. It is not only petty and disgusting to witness, but it is, in my mind, [a] poor political strategy by her campaign for the general election.
I fail to see what benefit it provides anyone in our party or in the country as a whole. It is divisive and unworthy of her and her supporters. I hope someone in her campaign convinces her to reverse these wrongheaded, foolish and frankly damaging tactics before the convention in July, instead of making noises that sound very much to me like [the DNC is] bound and determined to repeat the mistakes made at the Chicago Convention in 1968 when the Democratic establishment, led by Mayor Daley, deliberately incited violence against peaceful and unarmed antiwar protesters to disastrous effects for Democrats in the Fall, allowing a vile and evil man, Richard Nixon, to win an election to an office he should never have been allowed to hold.
And with that I have no more too say. I hope your health is better, and your life otherwise going well.
Comments
Maryscott is something all right.
I don't mind her rants - though I used to fight viciously with her back in the day. I just stopped being pissed off at her for some reason, even when I thought she was being batshit crazy, lol. Have liked her ever since.
I remember when I was passionately opposed to the ACA because of the public option -- MSOC wrote something to the effect that even though it was a crumb, there were people who needed that crumb (she put it far better than I just did) and it actually changed my view. I still opposed the ACA and Obama, but some of my vitriol lessened.
I get what she's saying in this particular rant and I understand your disagreement, but she's speaking of something real, even if it's put in a "sensationalistic" way, as only she can do. Again, doesn't change my mind about Hillary, but it does lessen my vitriol a tad.
Beat in the USA.
I understand her point
about the slurs perfectly well. And some Sanders people have done that, but I far fewer than we have been led to believe ( I suspect far more Republican trolls pretending to be for Sanders or David Brock mercenaries are involved than we will ever know).
What bothers me is that there is no discussion of the awful, hurtful and frankly damaging attacks by Clintonites against Sanders folks, including the same slurs she object to regarding HRC and DWS. Even worse, is this sense that these two women are above criticism for what are, indeed, Republican tactics and Republican policies that they support. Clinton said far worse things, deceitful things, about Obama during the 2008 campaign, and yet the narrative is that somehow this year she is the "victim" and the object of misogyny and sexism by Bernie and others when they simply tell the truth about her record. Hell, not even all the truth since he deliberately refused to discuss the email issue or the FBI investigation, something no other candidate would have failed to bring up. As for DWS, well, what else needs to be said about her at this point?
And of course, I do take it personal, when my daughter tells me she has heard these same slurs and been called stupid and ignorant and a dumb bitch for her support of Bernie.
I understand Maryscott but that doesn't mean I will accept her narrow and misleading viewpoint (and frankly she is like many who have bought into the nasty memes the Clinton camp has used to distort the truth this year) without a response to tell the other side of the story, the one no one is being told because of our major media blackout on telling the truth when it comes to the Clinton Sanders race.
"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott
That's just it.
You DO understand her point.
She's like that about everything. She pretty much infuriates everyone because of that characteristic.
I honestly don't know why I stopped getting infuriated by her - for I also took much of what she said personally and fought a lot with her at TOP because of that.
So I do understand your feeling!
Beat in the USA.
It's OK If You're a Clinton.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
There are no doubt people that have used inappropriate words
That also happen to be Democrats. Some of them may have done so without provocation, some may have done so after being what they felt was provoked into an emotional response.
From my experience (and I spend more time than most reviewing comments and whatnot on articles) the worst attacks are coming from Republicans. This is also nothing new and was going on long before the primaries.
Also worth mentioning, some of the most ardent BernieOrBust people I've seen happen to be women/people of color. There is also what I feel is a concerted effort to conflate any and all criticism of Hillary as GOP talking points, when in fact progressives have entirely different concerns (that do occasionally overlap). Benghazi (as a matter of Ambassador Stevens) was no doubt a partisan witch-hunt that frankly only made Hillary look better to many Democrats. Libya / no-fly-zone / bombing as a matter of questionable "humanitarian" purposes that was later debunked is a different matter entirely.
Using a personal email address in and of itself is less an issue, maintaining your own private server (unbeknownst to the President even) is another issue entirely.
She proudly proclaimed her conservative roots in the late nineties when it was beneficial to do so politically. She has made absolutely no effort to find common ground with progressives/lefties in the party, and has merely stated it as Bernie's job to 'unify' the party, as if Bernie alone controls how we may feel about Hillary and what I consider her fairly weak positions, policies, and record.
She has evolved
Now war is just fine, but the public option is a threat.
Very nice response Steven
Maryscott was only 3 people I followed at TOP. I loved her writing. I believe she was banned due to alleged plagiarizing and when called on it refused to change her post. I followed her to MLW also. It's a shame she's bought into the poor hillary meme. But it doesn't surprise me. Please keep us updated on what if any response she posts. Thanks Steven.
Bernie or Bust...
Well...
pretty close. She re-posted a diary gottfried (pretty sure, my spelling may be off or I may be misremembering entirely) put up at My Left Wing that turned out to be an unattributed copy. Markos was looking for an excuse and escalated, it was one of those count down things they do to take advantage of those not chained to their keyboard.
She lost focus and control of MLW where I did what I could but was uninvested in the outcome, unlike my own personal sites- The Stars Hollow Gazette and DocuDharma. Perhaps that has changed.
It is indeed unfortunate if she has taken the lesser evil track (or maybe she's a true believer) as she was always an advocate of the under dog and goodness knows we need as many of those as we can muster.
Thanks Ek
for the clarification. I knew the little prick was after her for something.
the strange thing is that there are lots of authors on TOP
who used to write and still are for their own "tribe's" underdogs (each self-declared identity group, feminists, blacks with Afro-American slavery ancestry, people with Native American ancestry, self-identified latino ancestry, LGBT) but have no problem to support establishment Democrats, who do NOT really support the goals and values they want to see supported for their own specific underdogs.
Puzzles me quite a bit.
https://www.euronews.com/live
I'd-a just unfriended her
your response was more grown up, though.
I can't believe that we lost MSOC.
I shared the history OT, never met her. I feel a divide I could not anticipate. Good for you for "talking" with her. My son-in-law and daughter (he especially) were offended by large hand-painted road signs (Cortland, NY) about Hillary to prison. I (back-seat) told SIL I agreed with the sign, but the person is an advertising Bircher-type. No words from the front seats.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Good points
Too many tirades by too many people against Bernie supporters have drastically reduced the size of the Democratic Party. What did they think would happen?
It would be nice if you and Mary Scott could make up after the election, but I can see how that might not happen.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
Mary has always seemed to be primarily concerned with
feminist issues, and never seemed to have much to say on economic ones. That type tends to go Hillary. There are some people you like that you just have to ignore during elections, and she is one of them. She was banished for personal disputes with Kos, not for political reasons.
Economics and feminism are inextricably linked...
...because Neoliberalism is nothing short of violence against women and their children to benefit the Top 0.1%. Everything from unequal pay for equal work, a minimum wage that is incapable of supporting one person, let alone a family, Bill Clinton's unforgivable plan to "End Welfare As We Know It" while simultaneously ladling out massive amounts of welfare to Wall Street and the MIC, a Let 'Em Die "healthcare" system, college education with a heaping side-order of inescapable, perpetual debt servitude are all feminist issues, IMHO. Because Liberals were able, through the courts, to do away with the legal ability of men to effectively own and control women, the He Man Women Haters of the Christian Taliban turned to economic policy to engender (pun intended) nearly the same effect, albeit less directly...
I want my two dollars!
Nah, that's not true.
I know way more feminists who are for Bernie than for Hillary. His track record on being anti-forced birth is better than hers.
I miss Colorado.
She was always a bit strange.
Does anyone listen to her anymore?
On TOP
I have seen comments telling Bernie and his supporters to go fuck themselves and other comments in that vein.
Markos called Bernie a bitter conspiracy mongering crank. I had written to the help desk and included the comment made by the person below. They wrote back and asked me to provide the link to the comment.
I said why bother when the owner of this site can constantly denigrate Bernie and his supporters?
The comment below if addressed to Hillary would have gotten the person banned, yet Hillary's supporters can write whatever they want because Markos has given them permission to write it.
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
Nice response
I'll write out a personal response once I get my right to VOTE returned.
BTW Steven, there is no difference between Republican and Democrat when it comes to
corruption
voter fraud
"speaking engagements"
Kock Support
lies
drones
torture
ignoring police bruatlity
TPP
Fracking
backstabbing
"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison
by the way, Janet
As a Floridian, and somebody who's seen this shit up close, let me extend my profoundest sympathies and solidarity for you guys. I know the sick feeling being that close to the sin of election fraud gives. And I use the word "sin" (which I use rarely) advisedly.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I remember her and found her to be a talented "drama queen"
with some feminist leaning. She could write excellent rants, but content wise I found her posts unconvincing. In a way some of her rants were for show effect and somewhat distracting. I tried to read her own blog a little bit, after she was gone, but lost interest.
You are quite patient and eloquent to respond to her like that. It's virtual stuff. As you know her personally, would you have unfriended her, if you had a real life conversation about it with her?
I guess if she would talk in a personal meeting like that, I either wouldn't say a thing or give her a mouthful, if I had the words for it.
https://www.euronews.com/live
MSOC has never been one of my favorites.
I saw her as full of herself. I once told her on dkos that "sacred cows make good hamburger".
Her and I were friends on FB. I found myself not enoying her posts. I'm not sure if I unfriended her or just quit following her so I wouldn't see her stuff anymore. Did that about a month ago. I did the same thing to Chris Bowers. If I left dkos not to put up with stuff like that anymore, I'm sure as hell not going to put up with it anywhere else especially here.
The older I get, the less tolerance I have for people and things I don't like.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
That may be the ultimate signal of maturity.
eliminating stuff that is disliked. Right on! I am there as well.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Amen
I am utterly done with shit I don't like. By shit, I mean 99 percent of homo sapiens. People suck. We're seeing the re-birth of the Third Reich. Fuck MSOC and fuck anyone who doesn't support Bernie. I hope HRC goes to prison for the rest of her life and they can stick Bill right next to her. #BernieOrBust
Wow, I can't tell you how disappointed I am.
MSOC was one of my favorites back in the day. I loved her rants. I would have sworn she was too liberal to fall for the Clinton garbage. Of course, I would have sworn the same thing about Markos.
Twain Disciple
sometimes, folks gonna call a bitch a bitch.
plenty of women do, and not in a, "yeah, we're all in this together," sort of way. when a woman calls another woman a bitch, she knows what she's saying, and she means it.
i have a soft spot for MSOC, but getting all ranty because angry people used angry words in the very moment that their political rights were being usurped by an immoral, unethical, bought-and-paid-for female lackey of an immoral, unethical, bullying, extorting, buying-and-paying-for, selling-and-collecting-for female candidate is not very pointful.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
'You say "bitch" like it's a BAD thing.'
Heh. A favorite bumper sticker, back in the day.
A woman knows when another woman is a bitch (chronic) or behaving like a bitch (acute). I have yet to find a better word to describe it, and I'm very familiar with my own inner bitch, being a female dog and all.
Hillary, bless her heart, doesn't have enough style to merit a bitch tag. She is your basic phony; a relentless and talented phony. I think that's what many find so offensive about her personality, which doesn't bother me in the least. I have a specific problem with her international murder and mayhem, and her bloody war crimes — not her personality.
If folks had called her a sociopath rather than a bitch, they might have escaped the cheap smears of the metrosexual Dems. Accuracy is always the best policy, IMO.
IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
problems of sex and gender represent
irreconcilable conundra for the left. the realities of both culture and biology are incompatible with leftist ideals. i have no solutions.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
LOL and TY
[video:https://youtu.be/6HgY6qbVXTI]
Sigh...
I too yearn for a day that vocabulary expands to the point where people understand exactly when I'm insulting them, how I'm insulting them, and why.
Ah, I get more satisfaction from a barb (true statement)
that goes "whoosh" over the recipient. My passive-aggressive side.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din
Not sure I could have been as well-reasoned in a Facebook reply -- which is why I only use Facebook for sites that require FB login (mostly ESPN boards/live chats).
I don't call any woman the C-word or the B-word. But I'll use strong language against them when needed -- I don't see how DWS got her cushy DNC job when she actively worked against the election of Democrats in Florida in 2008 because she was buddy-buddy with Congressional Republicans.
I don't hate Hillary Clinton -- but she's a 20th century politician in a 21st century world. I just don't think she's the right person for the current national and world environments.
I didn't care for MSOC
We went round and round a few times the same as I did with Armando during his drunken days. Her rants, while amusing, were essentially content free. Sorry you find yourself at loggerheads with someone you consider a friend.
Your Very Courteous Facebook Reply
Your FB post was much more gentlemanly than MSOC's was ladylike. I hope your FB friend learns something from your reply, because she seems ill-informed about Bernie Sanders and his supporters. I have noticed during this primary that some HRC supporters see any attack on Hillary Clinton as sexist/misogynistic. There is something wrong with this picture--I could understand these rantings if it were the 1970's, but that was a long time ago. Personally, I do not enjoy reading someone's tirade and become embarrassed for them.
I enjoyed
reading MSOC back in the day. Now she is just another on the ever growing list who, after years of claiming to want a left of center prez, decide that the one who finally offers himself up for the job is not quite to their taste.
Those on said list either don't like Sanders because he is either too white or too male or because their progressivism was nothing more than a career move.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Wow
that is name I had forgotten.
MaryScott only wrote one way - so I can't say I am surprised at the vitriol.
Next you will tell me Marisacat is pissed at Bernie too.
MSOC goes a little overboard but there are better ways of
telling the truth about HRC and DWS without resorting to base an vile sexism.
Where it all goes stupidly wrong is when supporters start confusing between supporters and the candidate.
i saw that post by her and passed it by, not wanting to draw...
vitriol... so glad you answered it, and perfectly at that! bravo!