Conformist voting as a bad idea

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 7:00am

What really sticks in my mind about the 2024 election is Jill Stein's explanation of why the Muslims of Dearborn, Michigan voted for Donald Trump and not for her. As Stein explained it, the Muslims of Dearborn, Michigan voted for Donald Trump to punish Kamala Harris for supporting a genocide.

The problem with such a strategy, given its obvious result, is that the end-result of it is another term for Donald Trump. Of course, in discussing Donald Trump it is essential that we distinguish between the actual Donald Trump and the scary fairy tale the Democrats have made of him. Omigod Trump's going to be a DICTATOR! They shouted. Of course, if the elites whose yard-sign printing presses created this show of raw fear had actually been the least bit concerned that Trump was going to be some sort of evil dictator, they wouldn't have granted his party the trifecta he received at the beginning of this month. So, no, they're fine with it, and the Democrat rank and file is being played.

(To be honest, I don't see this situation ever changing. The Democrats in power will only be satisfied if the rank-and-file is denied the least microgram of say-so over what the party does, and so if the Republicans keep their trifecta for the next twenty election cycles, their goal in life has been achieved. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz for President in 2028 anyone?)

So I am happy to see fewer people being played. I am also happy to see Ms. Middle Management losing an election (given that she was never competent to run nor to govern). But I am not happy that we get another President Trump as a result. Here is the TMI show, laying out with Mark Sleboda why we are likely to get another four years of lazy incompetence:

So yeah. Y'all Dearborn, Michigan Muslims accomplished your goal of punishing Kamala Harris. But some of you may have noticed in retrospect that it didn't do anything of substance! Conversely, all the nice liberals with their "Democracy or Dictator" signs were, in their vast collective effort, unable to prop up Ms. Middle Management. Which brings me to my topic here: conformist voting.

Everyone in American pseudo-democracy votes according to their best hearsay about how everyone else is going to vote. Vote for Candidate X to keep Candidate Y out of office: that is America's motto of its bullsh*t notion of "strategic voting." And this strategy has been a spectacular failure for the masses, though to be sure it has brought some spectacular successes to some people who would otherwise be hot in pursuit of their next custodial temp jobs.

Let me suggest an alternative strategy: nonconformist voting. Vote for candidates you think are the best ones. So your candidates lose. It's not a big deal, because under your current assumption about voting, you are losing big-time in every election cycle.

Okay? Okay.

Tags:

Voting

Jill Stein

Vote

Comments

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 7:05am

Jill Stein reminds me of some of these surfers I've seen

Of course, since it's November, I can only watch surfers on YouTube.

At any rate, you have these surfers who go out into the Pacific Ocean only to discover that the waves are crap. They're too small, and they don't last very long. Yet these surfers stay out there anyway, and they still look good riding the waves, because they're good surfers, even though they may only be out there for a little while.

—

“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser

Submitted by fire with fire on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 9:29am

I disagree

So long as anyone believes that voting will make a difference, that person is mistaken -- the permanent government controls the politicians, not the other way around. Voting for the reincarnation
of Gene Debs -- or a whole Congress full of Perfect Angels of Anti-Imperialism -- will only bring down the hammer from the uber-mafia that has the armed forces and the cops at their disposal. And an infinity of Lee Harvey Osgoods for individual assassinations.

Getting into a position where that is no longer reality is the task ahead. Voting does almost nothing toward that end.

—

I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 2:01pm

Then bring on the military

@fire with fire

Voting for the reincarnation of Gene Debs -- or a whole Congress full of Perfect Angels of Anti-Imperialism -- will only bring down the hammer from the uber-mafia that has the armed forces and the cops at their disposal. And an infinity of Lee Harvey Osgoods for individual assassinations.

The US is still a lawless oligarchy because it only ONCE came close to dealing with a situation like the one you describe, in 1968. And, in 1968, the rebellion against empire in the US (as opposed to the rebellion against US empire, which had some subsequent successes, notably in Nicaragua in 1979 and in Venezuela in 1999) discovered that it only had the power to prune out the worst cases of armed idiocy, and those were occurring on the battlefields of Vietnam (e.g. "fragging"). The point of "fragging" was nonetheless not lost on the shadow government of that time: if you rely upon the military too much, there are consequences. 1968 was, moreover, in the midst of a cultural revolution which resonates to this day, and it inspired the birth of the Peace and Freedom Party of California, a very small thing, but a good one nonetheless. (There were also the Yippies; too bad they also remained small.) Said rebellion didn't have the strength to prop up the Black Panthers as opposed to the FBI of COINTELPRO, but what if it did?

And as for voting, the public repudiated Johnson only to elect Nixon. It could have done better than that, but it didn't, because it was too early. It is no longer too early.

At the current juncture, "the vote" has been used so stupidly that it has granted us a genocide and a mass slaughter with no end in sight. The groups in power, both outgoing and incoming, do not get the idea that overuse of the military has consequences, although they are starting to realize this fact of life in Lebanon and with the Israel-Iran exchanges. I am suggesting an end to the practice of hearsay voting, and not in nonvoting, which hasn't changed anything either. Remember, it is in Chomsky's endorsement of hearsay voting that he deviates from anarchism and stops being an anarchist altogether.

Sure, voting doesn't do a lot. But it can do more than nothing, which is mostly what it did this year. Voting did, however, persuade the Harris campaign to run anti-Stein ads, a waste of seven figures of money. But that was the sort of voting I am recommending.

—

“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser

Submitted by fire with fire on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 2:03pm

Bring on the military?

@Cassiodorus How about bring in the military? That is implicit in your post and I agree with Crane Brinton that a revolution succeeds when the troops will not fire on the people. We should therefore recognize that soldiers and cops are part of the 99%, and include them as individuals in our movement. Voting can indeed play a role in organizing resistance, but the votes do not do anything meaningful. I have no gripe against Stein or the Greens -- I just don't think they are on the best path of resistance.

#2 Voting for the reincarnation of Gene Debs -- or a whole Congress full of Perfect Angels of Anti-Imperialism -- will only bring down the hammer from the uber-mafia that has the armed forces and the cops at their disposal. And an infinity of Lee Harvey Osgoods for individual assassinations. The US is still a lawless oligarchy because it only ONCE came close to dealing with a situation like the one you describe, in 1968. And, in 1968, the rebellion against empire in the US (as opposed to the rebellion against US empire, which had some subsequent successes, notably in Nicaragua in 1979 and in Venezuela in 1999) discovered that it only had the power to prune out the worst cases of armed idiocy, and those were occurring on the battlefields of Vietnam (e.g. "fragging"). The point of "fragging" was nonetheless not lost on the shadow government of that time: if you rely upon the military too much, there are consequences. 1968 was, moreover, in the midst of a cultural revolution which resonates to this day, and it inspired the birth of the Peace and Freedom Party of California, a very small thing, but a good one nonetheless. (There were also the Yippies; too bad they also remained small.) Said rebellion didn't have the strength to prop up the Black Panthers as opposed to the FBI of COINTELPRO, but what if it did? And as for voting, the public repudiated Johnson only to elect Nixon. It could have done better than that, but it didn't, because it was too early. It is no longer too early. At the current juncture, "the vote" has been used so stupidly that it has granted us a genocide and a mass slaughter with no end in sight. The groups in power, both outgoing and incoming, do not get the idea that overuse of the military has consequences, although they are starting to realize this fact of life in Lebanon and with the Israel-Iran exchanges. I am suggesting an end to the practice of hearsay voting, and not in nonvoting, which hasn't changed anything either. Remember, it is in Chomsky's endorsement of hearsay voting that he deviates from anarchism and stops being an anarchist altogether. Sure, voting doesn't do a lot. But it can do more than nothing, which is mostly what it did this year. Voting did, however, persuade the Harris campaign to run anti-Stein ads, a waste of seven figures of money. But that was the sort of voting I am recommending.

—

I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 2:37pm

They haven't been for everybody

@fire with fire

I have no gripe against Stein or the Greens -- I just don't think they are on the best path of resistance.

The Greens haven't been for everybody. Consistent with this diary, I would argue that the primary failure, here, has been the twin one-size-fits-all pseudo-resistance concepts, such that the Trump voters think they are resisting Project Ukraine, and the Biden/Harris voters think they are resisting the racism and sexism of the Trump voters. Au contraire, we get genuine resistance when people focus on what counts as actually resisting. One way in which this will show up will be when they vote for actual resistances, instead of the usual concern for hearsay.

—

“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser

Submitted by fire with fire on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 8:04pm

Caitlin Johnstone on voting:

@Cassiodorus @Cassiodorus

Read on blog or Reader
Site logo image Caitlin Johnstone
When The Show Is Over, The Actors Hold Hands And Take A Bow

By Caitlin Johnstone on November 14, 2024 --

President Biden and President Elect Trump met at the White House on Wednesday and shook hands and exchanged pleasantries after an emotionally exhausting presidential race in which each side accused the other of presenting an immediate existential threat to the country.

This is it. This is the real story. This image, right here.

https://twitter.com/gumby4christ/status/1856739291080294808

Ignore all the fake drama. Forget all the campaign rhetoric and kayfabe conflict. This is what’s real. This is what deserves your attention.

They do not hate each other. They do not see one another as an existential threat to the nation. They are not enemies. They’re barely even opponents. When the show is over they hug and kiss like boxers after weeks of phony trash talk made solely to sell pay-per-views.

One may say his opponent is the next Hitler, coming to end democracy and take everyone’s votes and destroy the country. The other may say his opponent is a communist dictator, come to do the same. But when the play is over the performers hold hands and bow, and then they go out and have a drink together.

They each pretend to be fighting against each other in defense of you and your interests, when in reality they’re on the same side, fighting against you, in defense of the interests of oligarchy and empire.

President Biden and President Elect Trump met at the White House on Wednesday and shook hands and exchanged pleasantries after an emotionally exhausting presidential race in which each side accused the other of presenting an immediate existential threat to the country.

This is it. This is the real story. This image, right here.

https://twitter.com/gumby4christ/status/1856739291080294808
Ignore all the fake drama. Forget all the campaign rhetoric and kayfabe conflict. This is what’s real. This is what deserves your attention.

They do not hate each other. They do not see one another as an existential threat to the nation. They are not enemies. They’re barely even opponents. When the show is over they hug and kiss like boxers after weeks of phony trash talk made solely to sell pay-per-views.

One may say his opponent is the next Hitler, coming to end democracy and take everyone’s votes and destroy the country. The other may say his opponent is a communist dictator, come to do the same. But when the play is over the performers hold hands and bow, and then they go out and have a drink together.

They each pretend to be fighting against each other in defense of you and your interests, when in reality they’re on the same side, fighting against you, in defense of the interests of oligarchy and empire.

Play video on YouTube
Play video on YouTube

You can see it right there. They’re not hiding it anymore. They don’t have to. It was all a show, and they’re openly admitting it. A friendly match, like two rich ladies playing tennis at the Hamptons.

They can show it openly because they know most of you won’t pay attention to what you are seeing, or if you do you’ll forget all about it and get swept up in the heat of the next election cycle. There’s so much messaging reinforcing the illusory partisan divide that these tacit little admissions tend to go completely overlooked.

Don’t get me wrong, the depravity of Trump himself is not illusory. Real people are going to suffer and die under his administration, just as real people suffered and died under Biden’s. But they themselves know they have nothing to fear. They and the powers they serve will go completely untouched by the imperial murder machine. They will die of old age surrounded by wealth and luxury, completely free from any consequences for their actions.

It was all a sham. Always is. The elections are fake and the game is rigged. The empire will march on completely uninterrupted and entirely unchanged, served by one fraudulent president after the next until its eventual collapse.

https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1856854168759406995
Stop buying into the performance. Stop screaming for your favorite political pro wrestler and notice that the blows aren’t connecting and the whole match is just a show.

If you want to fight the power, focus your opposition where the real power is. The war machine. Imperial power structures. Intelligence agencies. Plutocracy. Capitalism. Fully unplug your emotional energy from the illusion of electoral politics and dedicate your attention instead to the concrete movements of weapons, resources, and wealth.

As long as they can keep us clapping along with the puppet show, we’re never going to pay attention to the forces pulling the strings. We’re never going to bring enough awareness to the real problems to find actual solutions and carry them out. We’re never going to be able to bring real opposition to real power.

And that’s the whole idea. That’s why this silly puppet show keeps coming back every four years.

Stop clapping along and start looking around the theater. You know where the empire managers want you to place your attention, so start looking where they don’t want you to look.

Wake up.

—

I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 9:04pm

A casual reading of my previous diary

@fire with fire You've got post-mortem now complaining of the Dems' campaign

might suggest that I already knew all this stuff, and could throw in some more specifics for good measure. To quote:

As I pointed out fourteen months ago: if the people who fed the Trump-phobes their talking points were really as afraid of Trump as the Trump-phobes were themselves, they wouldn't be running Joe Biden/ Kamala Harris against him in the first place. But they didn't, so, no, they're not afraid of Trump. They do what they do to preserve their careers, and not for any reason one might reasonably count as political. The real question is about the rank-and-file Democrats. Why do they bother? Their party exists to lie to them, which is what they do, over and over again, with media stenographers of power in tow. They lied to you about Russiagate, they're still lying to you about the economy, and they change their lies about Ukraine with great regularity.

Watching old George Carlin routines, you can tell there's something distinctly American about him, especially in this one:

We'll be watching America's decline for the next few years, now. When the America of the future looks like a white version of today's Haiti, maybe people will listen to us.

#2.1.1.1 #2.1.1.1 Read on blog or Reader Site logo image Caitlin Johnstone When The Show Is Over, The Actors Hold Hands And Take A Bow By Caitlin Johnstone on November 14, 2024 -- President Biden and President Elect Trump met at the White House on Wednesday and shook hands and exchanged pleasantries after an emotionally exhausting presidential race in which each side accused the other of presenting an immediate existential threat to the country. This is it. This is the real story. This image, right here. https://twitter.com/gumby4christ/status/1856739291080294808 Ignore all the fake drama. Forget all the campaign rhetoric and kayfabe conflict. This is what’s real. This is what deserves your attention. They do not hate each other. They do not see one another as an existential threat to the nation. They are not enemies. They’re barely even opponents. When the show is over they hug and kiss like boxers after weeks of phony trash talk made solely to sell pay-per-views. One may say his opponent is the next Hitler, coming to end democracy and take everyone’s votes and destroy the country. The other may say his opponent is a communist dictator, come to do the same. But when the play is over the performers hold hands and bow, and then they go out and have a drink together. They each pretend to be fighting against each other in defense of you and your interests, when in reality they’re on the same side, fighting against you, in defense of the interests of oligarchy and empire. President Biden and President Elect Trump met at the White House on Wednesday and shook hands and exchanged pleasantries after an emotionally exhausting presidential race in which each side accused the other of presenting an immediate existential threat to the country. This is it. This is the real story. This image, right here. https://twitter.com/gumby4christ/status/1856739291080294808 Ignore all the fake drama. Forget all the campaign rhetoric and kayfabe conflict. This is what’s real. This is what deserves your attention. They do not hate each other. They do not see one another as an existential threat to the nation. They are not enemies. They’re barely even opponents. When the show is over they hug and kiss like boxers after weeks of phony trash talk made solely to sell pay-per-views. One may say his opponent is the next Hitler, coming to end democracy and take everyone’s votes and destroy the country. The other may say his opponent is a communist dictator, come to do the same. But when the play is over the performers hold hands and bow, and then they go out and have a drink together. They each pretend to be fighting against each other in defense of you and your interests, when in reality they’re on the same side, fighting against you, in defense of the interests of oligarchy and empire. Play video on YouTube Play video on YouTube You can see it right there. They’re not hiding it anymore. They don’t have to. It was all a show, and they’re openly admitting it. A friendly match, like two rich ladies playing tennis at the Hamptons. They can show it openly because they know most of you won’t pay attention to what you are seeing, or if you do you’ll forget all about it and get swept up in the heat of the next election cycle. There’s so much messaging reinforcing the illusory partisan divide that these tacit little admissions tend to go completely overlooked. Don’t get me wrong, the depravity of Trump himself is not illusory. Real people are going to suffer and die under his administration, just as real people suffered and died under Biden’s. But they themselves know they have nothing to fear. They and the powers they serve will go completely untouched by the imperial murder machine. They will die of old age surrounded by wealth and luxury, completely free from any consequences for their actions. It was all a sham. Always is. The elections are fake and the game is rigged. The empire will march on completely uninterrupted and entirely unchanged, served by one fraudulent president after the next until its eventual collapse. https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1856854168759406995 Stop buying into the performance. Stop screaming for your favorite political pro wrestler and notice that the blows aren’t connecting and the whole match is just a show. If you want to fight the power, focus your opposition where the real power is. The war machine. Imperial power structures. Intelligence agencies. Plutocracy. Capitalism. Fully unplug your emotional energy from the illusion of electoral politics and dedicate your attention instead to the concrete movements of weapons, resources, and wealth. As long as they can keep us clapping along with the puppet show, we’re never going to pay attention to the forces pulling the strings. We’re never going to bring enough awareness to the real problems to find actual solutions and carry them out. We’re never going to be able to bring real opposition to real power. And that’s the whole idea. That’s why this silly puppet show keeps coming back every four years. Stop clapping along and start looking around the theater. You know where the empire managers want you to place your attention, so start looking where they don’t want you to look. Wake up.

—

“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser

Submitted by Nastarana on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 9:54am

A few thoughts come to mind here:

Jill Stein has had, how long, ten years at least, to make the Green Party into a force to be reckoned with. The Progressives, at the turn of the 20thC elected governors, mayors and senators, and saw much of their program enacted into law.

Sorry to offend against multiculturalism, but the Muslims of Dearborn are getting a lot more publicity and attention than they deserve. I don't see too many of them stepping off the ladder of success in America to return to the ME and fight the hated Israelis. Looks to me like BOTH sides expect us to do their fighting for them. The Dumbocrats should never have abandoned Howard Dean's 50 state strategy.

Conformism. The advertising industry has spent a century and more convincing Americans that respectability lies in conformity. That is why, IMO, so called 'undecideds' wait to see who the winner is likely to be, because they don't want to feel out of step with the majority. Out of step means you are a weirdo.

I hope four years of lazy incompetence is the worst we get. It would appear that war with Iran is in the cards. So much for Trump will keep us out of war.

—

Mary Bennett

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 1:22pm

The progressives of 1900-1925

@Nastarana never had to deal with the organized idiocy that the Democratic Party became after McGovern's loss in 1972.

The Democrats, moreover, became a support structure for the Republican Party. When push comes to shove they will, like Gore and Kerry in the Zeros, imitate Republican platforms only to concede in November to the Republican when evidence of rigged elections comes up. That's their best effort; that's what pissed Ralph Nader off.

Their peak effectiveness, as such, came during Obama's tenure as President when they conceded 900+ state legislative seats to the Republicans. The most prominent point of my diary here is to deprive the Democrats of reasons for existing. In this regard, individual Democrats would greatly benefit from 1) therapy and 2) self-reinvention as "third party" politicos.

As for lazy incompetence, remember that Team Biden has done a great deal of damage to the world while Joe was taking extensive naps or staring off into space. Watch for that.

—

“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser

Submitted by Bring Back Civics on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 6:00pm

Dem v. GOP

@Cassiodorus @fire with fire @Cassiodorus Divide and conquer is always the Oligarchs' strategy. They divide along lines that will support their agenda. Our primaries are not democratic in the least (See Bernie 2016). The battle is between Establishment candidates (compromised - either party) and anti-establishment (not corrupt-either party). Trump is clearly anti-establishment -- so is his team (Musk-former Dem; Gabbard-former Dem; RFK Jr.-former Dem; and, for that matter, Trump-former Dem). I suggest ignoring the labels and focus on going the opposite way that the Establishment promotes. Why do we allow ourselves to be herded into pens? That's right -- constant propaganda from Establishment-controlled media -- which is now dead. How many lies do you need to be told before you re-think your beliefs? It did not take many for me.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 5:08pm

Huh?

@Nastarana

I don't see too many of them stepping off the ladder of success in America to return to the ME and fight the hated Israelis.

Fight them with what? Palestinians don’t have an army that can go up against Israeli bombs and tanks. It’s why they are getting slaughtered and their country is in ruins.

Looks to me like BOTH sides expect us to do their fighting for them.

Palestinians, Muslims and Arabs aren’t asking for us to fight for them. They are asking our government to stop arming Israel so that people can stop being slaughtered.

You and ban nock can question why they refused to vote for Kamala all you want, but they said they wouldn’t vote for the regime that is slaughtering their families. I didn’t hear them say that it’s the economy. And yes they had the right to vote for whoever they wanted. They didn’t owe Kamala their vote.

—

There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?

Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.

Submitted by Nastarana on Fri, 11/15/2024 - 5:38pm

I never said they owed anyone their vote.

@snoopydawg They can vote for whomever they want. I do say that that particular faction is nowhere near so consequential or important as it thinks it is. The Dumbs., once again, let an important presidential election come down to what happens in just one or two states.

It is high time the intelligence, you should excuse the expression, agencies be prohibited from resettling their pets and proteges in the US.

—

Mary Bennett

Submitted by snoopydawg on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 7:03pm

From the horses mouth

@Nastarana

For many others, who like Haider find themselves at odds with the liberal establishment on matters of the economy, foreign policy or immigration, the war has only solidified their views that both parties are not moved by Palestinian suffering.

According to data, tens of thousands of Muslims and Arab American voters actively voted against Harris via a third party or for Trump. Others simply didn't think their vote even mattered.

In Haider's case, she didn't think the bus trip to the polling station was worth the hassle.

"I had no interest in taking part in the circus," she said, noting that several friends in her circle, some of whom had taken part in the pro-Palestine encampments during the spring, had boycotted the vote, too.

Trump did not win this election. Harris was defeated by a Gaza-inspired boycott

The Biden-Harris administration framed these pro-Palestinian protests as antisemitic, and released a strategy in May to quell these protests.

Students also saw how easily their campuses became extensions of the US and Israeli military state.

'This is a genocide and nothing less than a genocide'

- Nasser, Arab American who has lost 150 family members in Gaza

Surveillance increased, checkpoints were set up at entrances, riot police and undercover security drifted through campuses, and access became selective and privileged.

For many, the coming war on civil liberties and authoritarianism liberals say Trump will bring to the US on his return to the White House is already here.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-muslims-arab-americans-criticise-l...

—

There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?

Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.

Submitted by ban nock on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 9:55am

Unless told otherwise, I'd guess the Muslims of

Dearborn Michigan voted for Trump for economic reasons, and secondly to stop illegal migration. Just like everyone else. I'd have to see good statistical polling from someone reputable to think otherwise. Obviously they liked Trump better than the other choices.

Submitted by Nastarana on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 12:48pm

Well, their spokespersons

@ban nock were all over the media saying that their votes had to be earned, and Harris supported genocide.

I might have believed about half of what they were saying. Obviously, they can vote for whomever they like and are not required to explain themselves. I do think, and repeat, that the Dems. et al are giving this one minority group far too much attention.

—

Mary Bennett

Submitted by Pluto's Republic on Thu, 11/14/2024 - 10:02pm