Open Thread - 10-18-24 - Turtles All the Way Down

Submitted by JtC on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 7:00am

Ever have those strange moments when surrealism temporarily supplants reality? Like a certain moment in time isn't real and you question it really happening? You feel outside of yourself like you're in another dimension? Here's an example.

That's happened to me several times in the past, but I've been feeling that way many times during the last four or five years, like all this really isn't happening. How can it be that life has changed so quickly? It seems like the change hasn't been organic, that some surreal hand has directed it all. Like it hasn't happened naturally, like it's all been orchestrated.

I wonder, have all great societal changes happen this way?

Things are weird and keep getting weirder. Like an infinite regression of weirdness. Like turtles stacked one upon another, holding up a flat earth.

Turtles_all_the_way_down.png
Attribution: Wikimedia Commons

Contemporaneous examples of surrealistic moments I've experienced:

Like politicians that invoke turtles all the way down:

Turtles all the way down

When you are having an argument and you see your logic begin to fail, you can use this phrase to automatically win. This of course only works if the reference is understood.

The phrase originates from a conversation that occured directly after a speech which described how the earth revolves around the sun.

At the end of the speech an elderly lady stood up and said,

"What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise."

The scientist then smugly asked,

"What is the tortoise standing on?"

"You're very clever, young man, very clever", said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"

This anecdote was made "popular" by Stephen Hawking, who told it at the begining of his book "A Brief History of Time."
"Your an idiot.. Theres 35 letters in the english alphabet not 26...

Lets count.

A = 1
B = 2
C = 3 "

....

"Z=26 ... ... um ...

then its just turtles all the way down. "

Or Secretaries of Defense that invoke the Sergeant Schultz Defense:

:04

Or Attorney Generals that invoke the Chewbacca Defense:

3:13

Or a past Secretary of State invoking censorship:

4:04

Or another past Secretary of State invoking censorship:

:59

Would it be too surrealistic to hope that, after this upcoming election, c99 is in that stack of turtles somewhere. Still speaking our minds.

Further reading (PDF): This allows the military to use lethal force against American civilians (See: Section 3.3 and Section 3.4).

Further viewing: The Original Intent of the Constitution (31:55).

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Open Thread
Turtles All The Way Down
my humble opinion
The Costitution
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Submitted by JtC on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 1:24am

the onslaught on the Constitution and free speech specifically is emanating from both sides of the aisle although the Republicans are coming at it from a different angle.

Who do these people think they are?

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Submitted by Cassiodorus on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 7:25am
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@JtC And so, for instance, you can find Mark Sleboda or Justin Filip on X or maybe on Rumble if you can't find them on Facebook or Instagram. The problem is of course that the Biden administration has only persuaded some of the billionaires (Mark Zuckerberg most prominently) to do its bidding. Eventually, of course, the advocates of censorship will pass draconian laws against "misinformation" or "Russian" thinking, and use those to bypass the First Amendment using the powers of the Federal government rather than having to use billionaires as middlemen.

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“The loyal Left cannot act decisively. Their devotion to the system is a built-in kill switch limiting dissent.” - Richard Moser

Submitted by JtC on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 8:46am

@Cassiodorus
spans the Western countries in concert which tells me there is some powerful hidden hands behind it. The rest of the world already censors as far as I know.

Our, ahem, "esteemed" pols may attempt laws against that which they fear the most, the truth, but I think, for now, that the Supreme Court will swat it down. There will be ways for them to circumvent the Court, like packing it with extra Justices, or by attrition as the older ones retire or die. A Constitution Convention or Amendments for now, seem out of reach. But, I have to agree with you that eventually they will get their way and the Grand Experiment will be over.

When the Republicans gain majority power again, and they will eventually, I think they too will jump on the social media censorship bandwagon as well. They too, are averse to the truth being told.

The life of c99 lies in the balance.

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Submitted by on the cusp on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 8:16am

Hillary said such an offensive thing about the 1st amendment that the rest of her statement might go rather unnoticed.
She referenced an "experiment". First, who is "we"? When was it conducted? Was it to prove a point, test a hypotheses, or make a discovery? Who were the test subjects, ie, "lab rats"? Me? You?
Just askin' for a friend...
The surreal is the new normal.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by JtC on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 8:58am

@on the cusp
that we can't join. She was reminding us of that.

I think that all the talk about censorship is an effort to normalize the idea, to soften us up for the coup de gras.

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Submitted by ban nock on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 8:41am

censorship is simply curtailing disinformation or disruption or lies and untruths, or so I've been told. In this digital age someone always owns the soapbox and will tell you your five minutes are up when they disagree.

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Submitted by JtC on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 9:13am

@ban nock
in the list of censors, so I guess you were trying to prove a point.

Since you're still here espousing your opinions that disproves your point, or has that inconvenient truth whooshed over your head?

Sure, prove yourself a troll, here to only disrupt the community, or go on a vicious tirade against other members and you will be bounced out of here. From its inception, c99 was meant to be a platform of civility in a online world of fight club. That was not my decision alone, that was a consensus of the early site admins, moderators and members.

We let folks speak their mind as long as it's within those parameters, even when they insult the site, as you just did.

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Submitted by enhydra lutris on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 10:35am
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There is but one turtle. The world is supported by 4 elephants, all of which stand on the back of one ginormous turtle. That turtle is Vishnu. Like all gods, he neither has nor needs any support, physical, logical or rational. Like all gods, he is a matter of faith, and is per se, irrational. This, thru Vishnu, is buried somewhere in the Bhagavadgita or some similar work. It is not to be cornfoozled with the vaguely homonymic gaddadavida.

Thanks for the Dylan and the Simpson. Apropos, perhaps, or maybe not?

Something to ponder; what is the relationship between censor, censure, and censer?

be well and have a good one -

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Submitted by JtC on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 11:27am

@enhydra lutris
it's turtles all the way down and according to the Urban Dictionary reference that I posted above, I win.

I grok the melody and rhythm of the My Back Pages song, but I'm a little disingroked on the words.

Something to ponder; what is the relationship between censor, censure, and censer?

The same homophonic relationship that Bhagavadgita vaguely has with In A Gadda Da Vida, baby.

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Submitted by BORG_US_BORG on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 7:27pm

@JtC Which circles (turtle) back to the beginning.

Word has it the writer was incredibly drunk and coming down from an acid trip while banging out the organ riff and slurredly trying to sing "In the garden of Eden..."

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Submitted by snoopydawg on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 11:46am
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.

Baier: "79% think the country is on the wrong track. You’ve been in office for 3.5 years and you say you are gonna turn the page…."

Kam: "And Donald Trump has been running for office for 10 years."

She didn’t answer one question….

Never forget that she was the lowest rated veep in modern history and she didn’t get any votes during her 1st and only run, but now she has the chops to be president? I don’t think so.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

Submitted by JtC on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 11:56am

@snoopydawg
the "turtles all the way down" defense.

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Submitted by snoopydawg on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 12:10pm
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.

Greenwald and Paul Craig Roberts.

Elect Kamala and Install a Sociopath Regime

Donald Trump gave a speech last week in which he denounced the warmongering of George Bush, Dick Cheney and Barack Obama as achieving nothing other than what he said was, quote, “leaving a bunch of dead people.” Meanwhile, Kamala Harris’s campaign apparently unsatisfied with continuing to drag around Dick and Liz Cheney, released a new ad featuring the wise words of John Bolton, the person who is almost certainly the most psychotic and unhinged warmonger to reach national office in the last several decades. Perhaps only John McCain and Lindsey Graham compete with him for that title. The Harris campaign continues to be shaped and driven by reliance on the support of some of the worst sociopaths of the D.C. swamp and the military-industrial complex. When one views the ideology and policies of the Democratic Party that all makes sense and we’ll examine all of that.

In the tweet above Kam says that she just came from speaking to republicans and that the only difference between her and Biden is that she will put a republican in her cabinet. I remember when shitlibs were upset about dem presidents promising to reach across the isle and work with republicans…..Kam is going directly to the source.

20 years ago shitlibs wanted Bush charged for torture, but now they are breathlessly waiting for him to endorse the Kam. They’ve already welcomed Dick Cheney into their fold.

Campaign ad with Cheney, Esper, Pence, Bolton and Milley.

https://rumble.com/embed/v5gk92z/?pub=4

It’s not showing me the option to embed. The ad is at the 19 minute mark…

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

Submitted by JtC on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 12:11pm

@snoopydawg
as Secretary of State? Nah, it will probably be his daughter Liz as Minister of Truth.

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Submitted by snoopydawg on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 12:53pm
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@JtC

I’ve been thinking that too, but it’s so hideous that I didn’t want to bring it up.

That’s what Greenwald's show is about. All the hideous Bush neocons crawling out of the swamp to endorse her. I’m surprised that he hasn’t stopped talking about them and say it’s just so disgusting.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

Submitted by Snode on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 2:04pm

@JtC Isn't it Chelsea Clintons turn yet?

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Submitted by JtC on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 2:10pm

@Snode
don't give them any ideas.

Hopefully she's next in line just like her mother was next in line, close but no cigar.

On no, now I did it, I put a Clinton and cigar in the same sentence. Dammit, I hate when I do that.

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Submitted by snoopydawg on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 1:24pm
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.

First they came for Julian Assange
And I did not speak out
Because I was not Julian Assange

Then they came for the Palestinian journalists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Palestinian journalist

Then they came for the independent journalists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not an independent journalist

Then they came for the investigative journalists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not an investigative journalist

They never came for me
And I never spoke out
Because I was not a real journalist

Britain is still persecuting everyone who speaks against Israel’s genocide.

Police escalate the British state's war on independent journalism

The raid on investigative journalist Asa Winstanley isn't about terrorism – except the UK government's. It is about scaring us into staying silent on Britain's collusion in Israel's genocide

They took all of Asa's electronic devices, but they haven’t arrested him….yet.

Caitlin also wrote about this last night and I’m sure Joe will post it tonight.

Britain doesn’t have a first amendment right per se, but it does have a law that protects human rights. As judge Nap says, free speech is a natural right that all people are born with. Let’s see how well that stands up in Britain.

Maybe if the world’s journalists had stood up for Julian Assange we wouldn’t be here today.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

Submitted by QMS on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 2:19pm
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.
.
somehow investigative journalists aren't
covered under the freedom of speech clause
I hope we continue to be able to express our
thoughts and opinions here

thanks JtC

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question everything

Submitted by ovals49 on Fri, 10/18/2024 - 6:56pm

beginning to get to know Dr.Jack Kruse on Danny Jones podcast. Talk about Turtles All the Way Down, my head is still spinning. Beginning with the JFK conspiracy, the origins and history of the onerous SV40 simian virus that tainted Saulk’s polio vaccine, MK Ultra as well as our recent tidal wave of new ‘illegal’ immigrants, attempts on Castro’s life, the nascent ‘gain of function’ experiments presents a brilliant neurosurgeon’s diagnosis of how we ended up on this national and global precipice and what is behind it all.

In the YouTube video description there is list of timestamp links and subjects discussed so you can hunt and peck through a raft of diverse subjects. I watched from beginning to end, spread out over a couple of days. If you are terminally curious, as I am, and see ‘conspiracy theories’ as opportunities to explore and learn this is for you!

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“ …and when we destroy nature, we diminish our capacity to sense the divine,and understand who God is, and what our own potential is and duties are as human beings.- RFK jr. 8/26/2024

Submitted by Lookout on Sat, 10/19/2024 - 9:01am
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Had hired help yesterday and didn't come by.

I've not forgotten Kent State where the Nat. Guard shot students, so I'm not sure if the unconstitutional DoD law is anything new. However it is a precedent to exonerate their illegal activities. Much like the current undeclared wars which to my mind are also unconstitutional.

The Constitution’s Article I, Section 8 specifically lists as a power of Congress the power “to declare War,” which unquestionably gives the legislature the power to initiate hostilities. The extent to which this clause limits the President’s ability to use military force without Congress’s affirmative approval remains highly contested.

Most people agree, at minimum, that the Declare War Clause grants Congress an exclusive power. That is, Presidents cannot, on their own authority, declare war. Although it is somewhat more contested among scholars and commentators, most people also agree that Presidents cannot initiate wars on their own authority (a minority argues that Presidents may initiate uses of force without formally declaring war and that Congress’s exclusive power to “declare war” refers only to issuing a formal proclamation).

Have a good weekend!

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”