The Swift Test, Joe Biden, and the 2024 election

How weak of a candidate is Joe Biden? Trump has been indicted four times, many of the crimes he is obviously guilty of, so he'll likely spend part of the campaign season behind bars. Yet, according to RCP, Biden is barely winning in the polls, and if history is any guide, that means Biden will lose in the electoral college.
A recent Emerson Poll put an exclamation point on this.

In a potential 2024 Presidential Election matchup between Biden and Trump, candidates are tied with 44% support each. Twelve percent are undecided. Trump has gained about a point in the head to head matchup from the June Emerson poll.

When Green Party candidate Cornel West is added to the ballot, support for Trump and Biden declines slightly to 42% and 41% respectively, while 5% support West and 13% are undecided.

When a hypothetical matchup included Taylor Swift as the third-party on the ballot, 42% support Trump, 39% Biden, and 8% Swift. Ten percent are undecided. Swift is viewed favorably by 43% of voters, while 38% are neutral, and 19% have an unfavorable view of her.

“The Swift test suggests that Biden’s support is softer than Trump’s, whose support is more locked-in,” Kimball said.

Marshmallow soft.
I personally love Cornel West, and I will be voting for him.
But the Dems are already spinning the voter shaming instead of looking at the enormous elephant in the room - why is their candidate so universally hated that he would lose to a conman, crook, and soon-to-be convicted felon in an election where the GOP are on the wrong side (by polling) of the abortion question?
When will the Dems finally stop finger-pointing and take some responsibility? Recall that the Dems controlled both the White House and Congress almost uninterrupted from 1932 to 1968, when the party was known for siding with labor. They've been mostly out of power since 1995, when they started siding with Wall Street.

Republicans like to talk about freedom. Democrats like to talk about democracy. Neither of them walk the walk.
Both parties have worked hard at keeping third parties off the ballot, and it's not just true for Blue States.
The Texas Republican Party sued to get 40 Libertarians kicked off the ballot in 2020 and sued again to get another 23 Libertarian candidates off the ballot in 2022.

However, it's the Democrats that have been the most hostile to democracy.
In 2018 the Democrats managed to get the Greens kicked off the ballot in Montana. So the Democrats doubled-down in 2020 starting in Wisconsin.

A Democratic Party spokesperson filed a challenge against the Green Party petitions, claiming the change of address by Walker invalidated some of the petitions. The hearing on the challenge before the state Elections Commission had all the trappings of a kangaroo court. The attorney for the Democratic challenger huddled with the Democratic chair of the Elections Commission to restrict the testimony of Green Party attorneys.
The Democratic challenge was upheld by the Commission and the signatures on those petitions were invalidated — conveniently enough to keep the Greens off the ballot.
...
In Pennsylvania, the Democrats went to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court to remove Hawkins/Walker from the ballot. They were victorious on the flimsy technicality that the Greens did not submit signed filing papers in person but mailed them in.

You might be aware of the dirty tricks the Democratic Party in North Carolina has been using to get the Green Party off the ballot this year, but the Dems have been waging war on democracy for longer than that.
People are upset that the North Carolina Dems got copies of the Green Party petitions and went to signers and encouraged people to remove their signatures. But in fact that is exactly what the Dems did in 2020 to get the Green Party kicked off the ballot in Montana again!

So far the Libertarian Party has been most successful third party at surviving this onslaught, but they have their own self-inflicted problem. While Libertarians have long been in perfect agreement with the GOP on economic issues, they have at least separated themselves from the GOP on the culture war issues.
At least that was until recently. Now the Libertarian Party has become the MAGA wing of the GOP.

In July 28, 2017, Jeff Deist, the president of the Mises Institute, named for libertarian economist Ludwig von Mises, published a blog post arguing that “blood and soil and God and nation still matter to people. Libertarians ignore this at the risk of irrelevance.” The phrase “blood and soil” already had an unmistakable fascist overtone—but it took on an even more gruesome connotation two weeks after the post during the infamous Charlottesville Unite the Right Rally of 2017, where an anti-racist protester was killed. The white supremacists who tried to dominate the streets of Charlottesville chanted “blood and soil.” Several of the organizers of the Charlottesville rally identified as libertarians. In the wake of that event, Nicholas Sarwark, chair of the Libertarian Party, signed an open letter warning of the dangers of fascism. Arvin Vohra, vice chair of the Libertarian Party, wrote a post arguing that the “Mises Institute has been turned into a sales funnel for the White Nationalist branch of the Alt Right.” The ensuing arguments over “blood and soil” lead to the creation of a Mises Caucus, which aimed to overthrow the pragmatic Gary Johnson wing of the party and adopt the incendiary culture war politics of the hard right.
...
On May 29, at the Libertarian Party Convention in Reno, McArdle won the title of chair of the party’s national committee. This was a decisive victory for the Mises Caucus, which received the vote of 69 percent of delegates. The Mises Caucus is now the undisputed ruling faction of the party.

"Taking the Libertarian Party out as a competitive force will help consolidate the right-wing vote around the Republican Party."
- Jeet Heer

The Dem party establishment has sensed it's weakness and now is looking to give the coup de grâce to the upstarts.
It seems fitting that this killing blow will be delivered by the leadership of the progressive wing of the party.

A pack of progressive candidates have crashed this year’s Democratic primaries, hoping to unseat incumbents and push the party to the left. Rep. Hakeem Jeffries (D-N.Y.), the fifth-ranking Democrat in the House, has other plans. Jeffries and two of his House Democrat allies on Wednesday rolled out the first slate of endorsements from Team Blue PAC, a political action committee intended to protect incumbents from intraparty attacks.

A PAC to protect incumbents during primaries is always controversial, but this one has compromised ethics far beyond that.

The lawmakers united in an effort to provide resources to the increasing number of House Democrats who face primary challenges — in particular, from the left. That circumstance faces the five incumbents who received endorsements on Wednesday: Reps. Shontel Brown (D-Ohio), Danny Davis (D-Ill.), Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.), Donald Payne Jr. (D-N.J.), and Dina Titus (D-Nev.). Davis and Maloney face opponents backed by Justice Democrats; Brown faces a rematch from Bernie Sanders ally Nina Turner, who had the support of the left-wing group during a special election to fill the seat last year...
he insists the PAC’s efforts are not strictly a matter of ideology: Maloney is a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, just like he is. Its purpose, Jeffries says, is to protect incumbents’ records from “being distorted” by “the hard-left.” He uses the term to separate himself from his detractors, who see actions like these endorsements as evidence he’s not on their side. “Why are members of the hard-left targeting progressive members of Congress, and then trying to act as though they’re engaging in some ideological contest against the rest of us?” Jeffries says. (It’s worth noting, of course, that Team Blue PAC isn’t defending any incumbents from challenges from the right.)

Once again the Dems have proven that they would rather lose to the right, than win with the left. The only difference this time is that the Progressive Caucus is proving it.
This is clearly entrenched corruption protecting itself from left-wing reform efforts, but just in case this was clear enough to see just follow the money.

There’s also the matter of corporate campaign funding, which all of the Team Blue PAC-endorsed candidates accept. The PAC itself is primarily financed through corporate PAC money, and I asked Jeffries whether that fact proves his detractors’ point.
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snoopydawg's picture

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Trump has been indicted four times, many of the crimes he is obviously guilty of,

to decide guilt? There have been numerous articles posted here that questioned if the charges against him are actually legitimate because of his 1st amendment right to free speech. So far the only case that might have legs is the one about his taking documents and that seems weak when Biden and others have done the same thing but haven’t been charged for it.

And then there’s the double jeopardy thing hanging in the air. He has already been acquitted for any involvement in the capital RIOTS. HE hasn’t been charged with insurrection so there’s that.

With this attitude does anyone think that Trump can find a jury that isn’t biased against him? I don’t. It’s why so many of the people who were charged for their actions in 1/6 have been found guilty.

Disclaimer: I don’t like Trump nor do I like what he did as president. But I do like the idea of justice.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

Lookout's picture

@snoopydawg

They will have to stack the jury to get a guilty plea. Trump is very popular in GA, and probably did win in the state. So a random jury will have at least a few Trumpeteers.

Additionally Robert Barnes suggests that he has a good case in GA proving election tampering.

I think in GA and know in AL the Green party was not given ballot access. So much for third party voting.

I predict a Trump victory next Nov.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout of opportunities to challenge the GA vote legally, and did so, but lost. In addition, GA conducted an audit of the votes, which showed no change, Biden won. It then undertook a recount and got the same results. Justice and due process were observed all along the line. Trump lost. So I take issue with the statement that DJT is popular in GA, normally a slightly Red state. He lost against a fairly weak and uninspiring D, which suggests he may not be that popular.

On the GA criminal case against him of attempting to interfere with the lawful election processes, it looks strong to this non-lawyer. I have no idea how a rather biased, pro-Trump lawyer like R Barnes would defend the charges. Maybe he should submit his name to work for the Trump legal team.

Finally, on 2024 predictions about Donald, it's way too early. Not only might he be in criminal trials during the campaign, but now there is an interesting bi-partisan effort -- lib and con legal experts -- to disqualify him from the ballot based on the constitution 14th Am sec 3. Interesting development.

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QMS's picture

@wokkamile

pulling out all of the stops to prevent a challenger

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question everything

snoopydawg's picture

@wokkamile

Many courts denied him from bringing his case before them. Out of 62 attempts to do it 3 got there and he won 2/3. He was denied for various reasons that were just made up like he had no standing. Weird how in the past people were allowed to question election results and many got a 2nd look and the stories changed.

I suggest following LO"s link and see for yourself how there was plenty of blatant election fraud that did happen. Or continue to believe that this last election was the most secure in history. Blehh… on what grounds was that determined? Maybe the media just said it over and over and the Goebbels' effect came into play.

“Tell the same lie over and over and people will start to believe it."

Not only might he be in criminal trials during the campaign, but now there is an interesting bi-partisan effort -- lib and con legal experts -- to disqualify him from the ballot based on the constitution 14th Am sec 3. Interesting development.

FFS! Again we will just decide that Trump is guilty of all charges and make it so that he can’t even run again. The hell with the presumption of innocence before trial. If that’s the world you want to live in go ahead. I find it very absurd and abhorrent and maybe you should think that this is why he’s been charged with close to 100 felonies. During election season Trump will have to interrupt his campaign so he can be in court. You think that’s right? Or fair? People have the right to challenge the election results. They’ve been doing this forever, but just now it’s not allowed because people don’t like Trump?

And on what grounds do they have to even do this? If Trump had no legal standing for bringing his case before a court, but they do then that signs the warrant that America is a fcking banana republic.

One of the men charged in Georgia has been denied bail and access to a lawyer. RT has the story on this.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

@snoopydawg

Many courts denied him from bringing his case before them.

Because they allegations were baseless. The only case he "won" was on s technicality.
Come on, do you really think all of those Republican judges were in on it?

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snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

Baseless before being heard and it’s just a big fcking conspiracy theory. You have already shown your bias. Like I said I have posted some articles that talk about the charges and whether they are valid in the first place. You might have missed them. Lots of people are sure that if Trump is found guilty that the cases will be overturned on appeal. But then the damage will be done and the brainless idiots will be back in power. Turley has written quite a few that you can find if you care to look. Lovely to see how many people think that justice in America doesn’t matter anymore.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

@snoopydawg

Lots of people are sure that if Trump is found guilty that the cases will be overturned on appeal.

As for my bias, it's that both parties are corrupt. I've made that clear.
As for Trump, he's obviously a crook and a con-man. He proved that long before 2016.

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@snoopydawg sec 3 doesn't require a prior criminal trial verdict of any kind, so your argument is way off base. The way it would work is an interested party, say Chris Christie, would challenge a state's sec'y of state to remove Trump's name from the ballot based on the 14th Am sec 3. If the official refuses, the case goes to state court, where an evidentiary hearing would be held on the factual issue of insurrectionist activity by the Donald. Then probably quickly on an expedited basis to the state Supreme Court, then the final appeal to the US Sup Ct.

On the DJT 2020 court challenges, after all the Trump legal appeals and losses, even his own AG, Bill Barr, told Donald that he lost fair and square and could not lawfully stay in power beyond Jan 20, 2021.

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snoopydawg's picture

@snoopydawg

Impeachment is the only avenue to charge a sitting president with a crime and for him to be found guilty of it the senate has to vote to convict. The reason for this is because charging one outside impeachment would shut down the entire government. I don’t remember why this is, but if I can find the article again I’ll post it.

Remember after Trump was charged the first time, Rachel opined on national TV that maybe the charges could be dropped if he promises not to run again…nothing like giving the game away.

Trump’s Prosecution Is America’s Last Hope Wired. The deck: “Social norms—not laws—are the underlying fabric of democracy. The Georgia indictment against Donald Trump is the last tool remaining to repair that which he’s torn apart.” So we’re prosecuting Trump because the Norms Fairy is having a sad? Really?

Weird. I remember someone saying that we are a nation of laws, not men.

As for Biden’s weak polling numbers wasn’t he behind Trump in the polls last time just before the election after he spent most of his campaign in the basement and when he did come out to do a rally he only got 10 people interested in what he had to say. Meanwhile Trump was getting hundreds of thousands at his rallies all year. Ahh, maybe that was like what happened to Bernie. He got many more people at his rallies too than Hillary did, but when he lost to her the shitlibs said that just because people will stand for hours to listen to a candidate that doesn’t mean that they will bother to vote for them…. And yes they really did believe that Bernie’s supporters didn’t show up to vote.

However there has been lots of information after the fact that showed lots of hinky stuff happened during the night that 4 states said that they wouldn’t be able to count the votes until the next day…. Weird that for past elections the election was usually decided the same day. As for the lawsuits Trump brought…that’s an even longer story.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

@snoopydawg

However there has been lots of information after the fact that showed lots of hinky stuff happened during the night that 4 states said that they wouldn’t be able to count the votes until the next day…

including Trump appointed judges.

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@snoopydawg

Impeachment is the only avenue to charge a sitting president with a crime and for him to be found guilty of it the senate has to vote to convict.

Or has ever been tested. What was tested is a federal lawsuit against a sitting POTUS. In his [Bugliosi] book, No Island of Sanity, he argues that the right of a president to be free of a private lawsuit while in office outweighed Paula Jones's interest in having her case brought to trial immediately. SCOTUS decided that a POTUS can multi-task.

I honestly don't know how you got so far on the wrong side of this issue. Perhaps it's because you csn't accept that Trump lost in 2020 just like Democrats can't accept that Clinton lost in 2016? Both sides on those two elections, ignore all the evidence that they are wrong. One doesn't need to dig in the weeds to recognize that the official outcomes reflected the ballots cast in the critical states and there is good evidence to rationally accept that those ballots reflected the plurality of voter sentiment as of those election dates.

That said, imo the first impeachment of Trump was misguided by DC Democrats who couldn't accept the 2016 election result. (As I ignored the second one and don't want to waste time digging into it, I have no opinion.)

Trump is such a blowhard, that the couldn't resist the temptation to be front and center in his attempts to overturn the election results. What a dumbfuck.

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@snoopydawg

I like this guy because he doesn't talk down to you.

So far the only case that might have legs is the one about his taking documents and that seems weak when Biden and others have done the same thing but haven’t been charged for it.

No, Biden never refused a court order to turn them over.

And I can't believe that you've missed the audio where Trump says on tape how the document he was waving about was still classified.

And then there’s the double jeopardy thing hanging in the air. He has already been acquitted for any involvement in the capital RIOTS. HE hasn’t been charged with insurrection so there’s that.

You are aware that Trump was never tried for the riots in court, right?

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snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

You are aware that Trump was never tried for the riots in court, right?

What do you think the 2nd impeachment was about? He wasn’t convicted by the Senate which brings double jeopardy in play. Or doesn’t that law mean anything anymore either? I explained this already.

Before accusing me of believing misinformation I suggest you buy a mirror. I’m not the one deciding guilt before trial. Good grief I can’t believe I even have to say this.
And Biden had no authority to have classified documents in the many areas he stored them.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

@snoopydawg in Congress, even one that ends in a conviction in the senate, is not the same as an actual criminal proceeding. (In fact, a president doesn't have to commit a crime to be impeached.). So there is no Double Jeopardy issue because that is only triggered after a trial and acquittal verdict in a criminal court and a subsequent attempt by the state to try that person in the same or similar criminal court for the same set of actions.

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@snoopydawg

What do you think the 2nd impeachment was about? He wasn’t convicted by the Senate which brings double jeopardy in play. Or doesn’t that law mean anything anymore either? I explained this already.

That's not the way the lawworks.

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snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

Just ignore what I posted below. I’m glad you get to decide that I’m confused and misinformed. Guess I’ll admit that I’m guilty of both just because you say so. Are you done insulting me?

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

@snoopydawg

Or doesn’t that law mean anything anymore either?

I didn't realize we were in the Outrage Olympics.
I'm insulted that you are intentionally misrepresenting my opinions.

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@snoopydawg

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@snoopydawg

Or doesn’t that law mean anything anymore either?

...according to you.
Screenshot from 2023-08-28 10-37-49.png

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TheOtherMaven's picture

@gjohnsit

What seems to keep whizzing over your head is that guilt or innocence is not a matter of "belief", but of proving it in a court of law. This has not happened yet.

Now, personally I believe Trump is a vulgarian asshole - but there's no law against being a vulgarian asshole.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

@TheOtherMaven

This has not happened yet.

The trials haven't started yet. Do you think that I didn't notice?

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TheOtherMaven's picture

@gjohnsit

Even a vulgarian asshole SHOULD be allowed to have his day in court - although at this point I very much doubt that a fair trial is possible.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

@TheOtherMaven
Unless you think you can tell half of the country to back off.
Hell, Epstein didn't have his day in court. So he must have been innocent, right?

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@gjohnsit @gjohnsit A plea agreement is read aloud in court, on the record, as well as the defendant's plea of guilty or no contest. If the judge accepts it, he signs the judgment, the sentence begins immediately afterwards.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp @on the cusp Wikipedia
I think you got your cases confused.

Epstein requested to be released on bond, offering to post $100 million with the condition that he would also submit to house arrest in his New York City mansion.[195] U.S. District Judge Richard M. Berman denied the request on July 18, saying that Epstein posed a danger to the public and a serious flight risk to avoid prosecution.[195] On August 29, 2019, nineteen days after Epstein was found dead in his jail cell, the case against Epstein was closed by Judge Berman.[17][18] Prosecutors stated they would continue an investigation for potential co-conspirators.
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@gjohnsit and the relief requested in his writ of habeas corpus was denied and a future court date was set.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp

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@gjohnsit He apparently lost interest in going to trial, as it were.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp

He apparently lost interest in going to trial, as it were.

that's one way of putting it.

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@gjohnsit That was his second arrest. He was already a convicted sex offender when he pled guilty on a sweetheart plea deal in 2008 in Florida.

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it’s no longer just
for breakfast

now available in a convenient
one liter I/v bag

the same dolts will Gladly
put on a mask and line up for
jabs when told to this fall/winter

gee, I Hope this isn’t
past marginal. . .

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Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .

If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march

to laugh or hang my head in shame as an American regarding the polling about a Taylor Swift presidential option. 8% in support is amazing. And 19% disapproval -- hah! Is it the music, the lyrics, the turn away from country to pop music? The $1500/ticket for her concerts?

As for the rest, agree on the DP trying to keep leftish parties off the ballot, and agree on Trump. Disagree on Cornel, as I've noted in several posts on this blog.

Re keeping people off the ballot, here's a decent overview of the situation re Trump and the 14th Am sect 3. This is the big issue right now, even including the criminal indictments and upcoming trials, and it's starting out with promising bi-partisan support: https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/trump-chris-christie-hutchin...

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snoopydawg's picture

@wokkamile

2 of Trump’s opponents want to sue him to stop him from running. You really think that should have legs? I can’t believe how many people have decided that justice should be a thing of the past. I’m actually appalled by it.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

@snoopydawg @snoopydawg too far out over your skis. Two R candidates for prez -- Chris Christie and Gov Asa Hutchinson -- have at various times expressed that DJT should not for moral and constitutional reasons because of his conduct surrounding J6 be entitled to hold that office again. I believe Gov Hutchinson has made comments explicitly referencing the 14th Am sect 3 and recent articles by legal scholars proposing this method of disqualification. But neither so far has said publicly they intend to sue. That's probably because we aren't quite yet at the stage of the game where the state sec'y of state has to decide on who gets on the ballot.

The 14thAm sec 3: it's in the Constitution. It's, in a sense, self-effectuating. No need for congressional action. All elected officials swear to uphold the Constitution. Trump failed to do so and actually acted to destroy it. He doubled down on his anti-constitution stance with more recent Twitter remarks to the effect that the Constitution should be thrown out if a fraudulent election has occurred. Donald had plenty of legal opportunities to prove the latter, and he came up with zero relevant evidence.

Time to stand up and hold people accountable, even morally dubious billionaires who managed to get into the WH. The Constitution is not just something we can pick and choose to follow depending on our political preferences. I understand your passion for Donald, but in our system even the high and mighty are not above the law.

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@snoopydawg

I can’t believe how many people have decided that justice should be a thing of the past. I’m actually appalled by it.

..that you can get away with misrepresenting what everyone is saying.

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snoopydawg's picture

https://americanmind.org/salvo/double-jeopardy/

Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution reads “[t]he executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.” Therefore, President Donald Trump had executive power vested in him through his presidential office. From that power flows certain privileges and indeed executive immunities. Among these privileges are those expressly delineated in the Constitution itself. The impeachment process, for example, as stated in Article II, Sec. 4, requires that for all “high Crimes and Misdemeanors,” the president “shall be removed from Office.”

In other words, the Constitution lays out a process by which presidents of the United States are to be prosecuted—through impeachment. The reason impeachment, rather than traditional prosecution (and attendant punishments like incarceration), applies to the president is because of the uniqueness of the office itself. The president exposes himself to outsized publicity, controversy, and risk as a result of his office. Therefore, the punitive measures that uniquely attach to the executive officeholder are consonant with the duties and powers of the office itself. In addition, there is a special constitutional prerogative, one might say, in safeguarding the integrity of the presidential office, no matter the character and fitness of its occupant. Specifically, that would mean not imprisoning the officeholder or former occupants of the office based on alleged criminality done within the officeholder’s official capacities as president. It is for this reason that the Department of Justice has confirmed, “to wound [the President] by a criminal proceeding is to hamstring the operation of the whole governmental apparatus, both in foreign and domestic affairs.”

In any event, and for the purposes of what is relevant in Jack Smith’s two indictments, the factual grounds on which President Trump allegedly committed crime(s) within his official duties as president have already been twice considered by the House of Representatives, for which the president—in conformance with Article II, Sec. 4—was acquitted both times by the Senate. Because the Senate voted not to convict President Trump of his alleged crimes, any and every remedial measure afforded by the constitutional process has already been exhausted. Therefore, to continue to bring charges against the president for the asserted crimes on which he has already been prosecuted is by definition an abuse of the judicial power and an expressed violation of the Double Jeopardy Clause of the Fifth Amendment: “…nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb…”

Apparently the constitution should also be ignored.

Also Pelosi was so concerned about what Trump’s role in the capitol riots she waited to bring impeachment proceedings against him until he had already lost the election and possibly after he left office. I don’t remember the timeline. And most of the witnesses against him in the first impeachment were involved in cooking up Russia gate from Ukraine. I’d be interested in knowing how many of them perjured themselves. Like Adam Schiff did when he read his lies into congressional record. Funny how republicans are going after him for that…oh wait.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

@snoopydawg I don't think you understand how this law works.

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Lookout's picture

@gjohnsit

I don't think you understand how this law works.

Justice for US not you...?

When I look at the Biden Crime Family graft contrasted with Trump's election result objection, the hypocrisy is plain to me. YMMV.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout

Justice for US not you...?

Sure, the Trump family is so honest compared to Biden's.
Trump University. Trump charity foundation. $2 Billion for J. Kushner from the Saudis.

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Lookout's picture

@gjohnsit

That's my point. Let Biden slide and prosecute Trump. Don't you think most of the country outside of SF and NYC can see that. This isn't a sane prosecution...it is suicide for the DNC to my mind. Reminds me of the insanity of Ukraine with all the fingerprints of Biden's crime family...and Kerry's and Pelosi's. The dims are truly dim, weaponizing the justice system. Don't you see?

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout

Let Biden slide and prosecute Trump.

Trump did.

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snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

You know what Trump’s lawyers are doing or are going to bring up for his defense.

So apparently I’m too stupid to understand what is in the article on top of being confused and misinformed. Guess that answers my question above. You weren’t.

Seems that the law is very clear on double jeopardy for a president, but you know better somehow. Maybe you should write the author and tell him that he’s all wet and what he got wrong.

And you haven’t said anything about you already finding Trump guilty of all charges. Again I think that Trump will find it hard to find an unbiased jury.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

@snoopydawg

but you know better somehow.

So suck it up, buttercup.

“In the old days they used to call it double jeopardy,” Trump added.

Trump’s argument doesn’t appear to pass legal muster.

The Fifth Amendment’s double jeopardy clause prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for the same crime, however, the Constitution explicitly states that impeached individuals “shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment.”

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snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

Because the Senate voted not to convict President Trump of his alleged crimes, any and every remedial measure afforded by the constitutional process has already been exhausted. Therefore, to continue to bring charges against the president for the asserted crimes on which he has already been prosecuted is by definition an abuse of the judicial power and an expressed violation of the Double Jeopardy Clause of the Fifth Amendment: “…nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb…”

You seem to have left out that fact that this only applies IF the senate had convicted him. Why is that? They didn’t.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

@snoopydawg
Cool. But you still didn't understand it.Impeachment is a political action, not a legal one.
That's why the Constitution says that "the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."
What you are saying is that Trump already had his trial, thus impeachment was the only possible punishment.
In fact, since members of Congress and federal judges can be impeached, that this is the only possible punishment for them as well.
Sure you can say "but he wasn't convicted", but even if the Senate convicted him, that would count as his trial. So any court action would be double-jeopardy.

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snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

Sure you can say "but he wasn't convicted", but even if the Senate convicted him, that would count as his trial.

If they convicted him he would be removed from office and sentencing would take place elsewhere. He already had a trial. He was found not guilty because the senate didn’t convict him so that’s where double jeopardy comes in. How is this hard to comprehend? And what the article says? Impeachment is the only way to hold a president accountable for high crimes and misdemeanors. Maybe it’s you who aren’t understanding what the article and the constitution says.

I’m done with this conversation. You’ve basically just keep saying that I’m wrong so I see no reason to continue debating with you.

Be well and have a good one.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

@snoopydawg @snoopydawg

He already had a trial. He was found not guilty because the senate didn’t convict him so that’s where double jeopardy comes in.

Wikipedia

Variation in common law countries is the peremptory plea, which may take the specific forms of autrefois acquit ('previously acquitted') or autrefois convict ('previously convicted').

You don't seem to comprehend that your interpretation of DJ means that if the Senate convicted Trump then if there was a actual trial that followed that would be double jeopardy as well.

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@gjohnsit you are wrong again.
Instead of reading news opinions, try reading some law journal articles. They are easy to find.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp @on the cusp

In Blockburger v. United States, the Supreme Court held that "where the same act or transaction constitutes a violation of two distinct statutory provisions, the test to be applied to determine whether there are two offenses or only one, is whether each provision requires proof of an additional fact which the other does not".[6] The test was applied in Brown v. Ohio, where the defendant had first been convicted of operating an automobile without the owner's consent, and later of stealing the same automobile. The Supreme Court concluded that the same evidence was necessary to prove both offenses, and that in effect there was only one offense. Therefore, it overturned the second conviction

Please be specific.

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@gjohnsit if you want a legal consult with me, send me a check.
Your personality has undergone a big change. You are not the friend I have appreciated in blogs for years.
Not sure what has happened, but I will say, the result has rendered you irrelevant to me. Last comment I intend to make in any of your essays.
So long, farewell.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp My guess would be the C-19 vax. I've seen it in many people that I know, including my father. Also TDS.

And let me just throw this out there:

https://naomiwolf.substack.com/p/on-hearing-president-trump-in-person

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@Bring Back Civics

My guess would be the C-19 vax. I've seen it in many people that I know, including my father.

But probably not the way you mean it.

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and the trial results in a not guilty, any other tribunal will be prohibited by the double jeopardy clause in the Constitution from trying to bring the same charge to trial.
On the other hand, if a tribunal at federal level finds guilt, the state where the crime occurred can also put the defendant to trial.
An infamous murder case in my county involving a guy who killed a federal postal worker who was his wife (in the process of divorcing him, and I was her divorce attorney.) Local police charged him with murder. The verdict was guilty. Then, the fbi and fed prosecutors prosecuted him, and he is in Fed prison awaiting his death penalty execution date.
That is how double jeopardy works. It could not be used as a defense.
gjohnsit, do not insult anyone over legal definitions and procedures. You are not qualified to do that, and shouldn't be insulting anyone in any instance.
It is nobody's place to hurl insults here.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp

gjohnsit, do not insult anyone over legal definitions and procedures. You are not qualified to do that, and shouldn't be insulting anyone in any instance.

If ssying that someone is confused is an insult then people around here need thicker skin. Good grief, is simply saying that someone has been miinformed is an insult then you should really stay off the internet. If I wanted to insult someone here you would know it.

As for double-jeopardy, even if the Senate had convicted Trump for January 6, by your definition, any prosecution of him would constitute double jeopardy.

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@gjohnsit You are reading the situation of his impeachment bassackwards.
Two tribunals, and an impeachment proceeding is one, can only proceed in a secondary and different jurisdiction(s) with trials if the first one resulted in a guilty verdict.Otherwise, it is double jeopardy.
Suck it up buttercup was an insult, and you know it, and you meant it. You are articulate enough to engage with a differing opinion without resort to a widely used, decades old insult.
I know you get frustrated when anyone disagrees with you. We all do, for that matter.
I suggest you step away, take that deep breath, come back to the keyboard with your typical articulate response, instead of knee jerk insults.
Perhaps this topic was not one you should have put up as your opinion, but put it out there for all opinions and responses.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp Impeachment is NOT a criminal proceeding. The person on trial in the senate is not in jeopardy of "life or limb" or liberty for that matter. It's my understanding as a non-lawyer and non constitutional law expert, that the Double Jeopardy Clause only kicks in when the proceeding is criminal in nature. Impeachment is solely about losing the office, not one's liberty or life.

There is no DJ issue here. These are just Trump talking points (which I've seen often here lately), a dubious legal angle Trump himself brought up months ago. The entirely unpersuasive article cited above by a Trump defender is written by a Young Republican fresh out of law school in the right-wing Claremont Institute publication.

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@wokkamile the 1st. Am defense is way, WAY more important.
That will change this country.
I dislike Trump. Nevertheless, what happens to him could happen to you.
I prefer that lawyers who are federal practitioners weigh in on this.
The weaponization of courts in political proceedings is banana Republic territory.
Kushner bad, Hunter bad, Clintons bad, depending only upon which side you are on.
I am on the side of the 99%.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp of Trump here are taking his 1A defense too much to heart. Trump is being charged with a number of fed law violations, many involving conspiracy to obstruct government processes, to overturn the 2020 election etc, but not insurrection or treason. In any conspiracy, there is going to be an element of speech, as motives, plans and strategies are stated, and if it's a criminal conspiracy, as with Trump, this speech is not protected by the 1A.

Criminal defendants all the time are nailed in court for statements they've made incriminating them, including obviously confessions. There is no First Amendment defense. Relevant, incriminating statements in the criminal law context are considered one of the several exceptions to free speech. This exception to the first amendment doesn't magically disappear just because the defendant is the former president. Justice for all, equally applied.

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@wokkamile 38 years of representing criminal defendants.
You and I disagree on the root problem, which is making assertions about an election result.
I strongly feel I am asserting a defense for all Americans to their benefit, not Trump specifically.
In fact, I do not give one shit about Trump, but I care about us. All of us.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp difference on speech about election results. That should always be open to discussion, even if people are wrong or make false statements or are just acting out as sore losers.

It's when that speech in certain contexts morphs into rhetoric directed to, in furtherance of criminal activities that it becomes unprotected speech, a speech of an entirely different character which cannot be shielded by the 1A.

Must go now. D.B. Cooper doc series on Netflix.

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@wokkamile with some input and oversight by the CIA and enjoy it, wok.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

snoopydawg's picture

@wokkamile

Or reading comprehension difficulties. For the record I am not defending Trump. I am defending the rule of law. Both Trump and OTC have it right. They aren’t only coming for him, but for all of us. Biden was told to quit censoring people on social media. He’s still doing it and trying to do it a lot more than he is now. Countries are passing anti free speech laws and cracking down on everyone who goes against the agenda. CJ Hopkins has been found guilty because he put a barely seen image of the Nazi symbol on his book cover and he was charged for aiding and abetting the Nazi ideology. But there are lots of books being sold in Germany where the symbol is much more obvious, but for some reason they aren’t being charged. I posted about this last Tuesday I believe if anyone wants to read it.

Plus Germany has sentenced a judge for stopping Covid restrictions on kids and he was only charged because he didn’t toe the Covid line. Countries are passing draconian laws for what social media can post and if they post it they get whopping fines and threats to make it so their platforms are removed from the country.

So if you still can’t see what I’m defending here I don’t know what to tell you. Except that you should wake up and see the big picture!
Apparently people missed my disclaimer in my first comment. Again….reading difficulties or just letting something in the brain not understand where I’m coming from.

All of this is related to what the WHO is working on installing when the treaty is signed and it’s on the orders of the globalists who are trying to install a one world government and every right that we have left will be a thing of the past. Sure this sounds nuts, but I’ve posted numerous articles about this that maybe people didn’t take seriously. Trust me…it’s very serious.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

@snoopydawg

For the record I am not defending Trump. I am defending the rule of law. Both Trump and OTC have it right. They aren’t only coming for him, but for all of us.

Yet you are repeating Trump's unproven taking points.
Trump's indictments have nothing to do with working people, like you and me. OTOH, you've completely refused to even consider anything anyone else has said. How can you listen to Trump admit on tape to breaking the law and still think that this has anything to do with you and me?

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@wokkamile is if calling an election unfair, or wrong, is a crime, the 1st. Am. will be drastically diminished.
I have participated in an election recount where the results were suspicious. At recount, I was actually the election worker that discovered a ballot box that had been hidden from sight and not initially counted. I happened to have dropped something on the floor, saw the box under a desk. At re-count, when the box of ballots were counted for the first time, the election outcome changed, and the challenger of the initial election turned out to be the winner.
Criticism of the crooked election was on everybody's minds, protests, petitions, rallies...we had every right to bitch, and every right to get that recount. The same right should exist even we had all been wrong, as well.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp that mere bitching about the outcome of an election or saying it was rigged will be declared unprotected 1A activity. The only speech in question, not subject to the shield of constitutional protection, is when speech drifts into speech directed at and in furtherance of unlawful activity about the election outcome.

my 2 cents. I also enjoyed the DB Cooper series (almost done). My job this past week has been to keep my guests entertained at the hacienda while keeping the on-screen depictions of sex and violence to a minimum.

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@wokkamile any new series that are suitable.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp

Two tribunals, and an impeachment proceeding is one, can only proceed in a secondary and different jurisdiction(s) with trials if the first one resulted in a guilty verdict. Otherwise, it is double jeopardy.

It suggests that an impeachment could be gamed to exonerate a POTUS of multiple criminal offenses. Using Nixon as an example and assuming that 35 of the 42 Senators are die-hard Nixonites, GOP House impeachment committee managers pack the Articles of Impeachment with every state and federal crime for which evidence exists and suspicion exists that the POTUS committed. The House impeaches and those 35 Senators vote not guilty on all the charges, and the impeachment fails. That would bar all state and federal prosecutors from ever charging Nixon with any of those crimes. This gaming would work even better for a politically strong POTUS - would truly be above the law.

That is the inverse of the standard definition of double jeopardy which in layperson terms is simply can't be tried twice for the same crime by the same prosecution in the same jurisdiction if found not guilty in the first trial. Thus, one could beat a state crime and still be subject to a federal indictment, a different crime, for the same acts and based on the same evidence.

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@Marie1 In reality, if a not guilty is the result of a state court, the feds will drop their case. And, vice versa. They do it as much on the theory of judicial economy as anything.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp
that may reduce their conviction rate. Plus in general, criminal cases that could be tried in state and federal courts are of less interest to the public and therefore, no public demand for an additional trial.

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@Marie1 esp in recent yrs, justice and the COPO demand that an injustice occurring in the state courts be corrected in the federal, if civil rights have been violated. Rodney King vs the Many Cops, the several cases down South of local yokels killing blacks and being acquitted by friendly local yokel juries then getting convicted in fed court.

Gaming impeachment -- good point. And related, the House Rs are currently considering whether to expunge DJT's 2 impeachments. Never been done before. Would they have to show Ds weren't of sound mind when they impeached him?

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@wokkamile
The Civil Rights Act was a very good thing to slap bigots and cops (often the same thing) with federal charges when states refused to act or state trials exonerated egregious acts.

Haven't a clue as to how the House R's could erase DTs impeachments or waste more time on it. But wasting time on stupid stuff is about all the House does these days.

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snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

As for double-jeopardy, even if the Senate had convicted Trump for January 6, by your definition, any prosecution of him would constitute double jeopardy.

The point is that Trump wasn’t convicted! Why is that hard to comprehend in this argument? If he had been then furthering the trial outside the government is what would happen and it wouldn’t qualify as double jeopardy. Since he wasn’t then that’s where double jeopardy comes into play. He was found not guilty by the senate. Try looking at the facts instead of just wanting so badly for Trump to be guilty before a fcking trial. Every person is entitled to one whether people want there to be or not.

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The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

is such as to convince me that he deserves retirement, not a second term. My sentiments have nothing to do with his legal issues, whether or not they have merit. I also hold no brief for Biden and wrote in Sanders in 2020. I think the DNC rigging of the primaries for Biden was outrageous, and his continuing funding of the Ukraine War is sheer insanity.

At this point I am beginning to despair of us ever getting our own country back.

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Mary Bennett

@Nastarana the last President that actually gave a shit was Kennedy.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp
could also be a Kennedy.

But WTF do I know…..?

What is certain is that the Dem Party will do its best to “Bernie” RFK jr., precisely because he does give a shit about both the people and the planet we live upon.

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“ …and when we destroy nature, we diminish our capacity to sense the divine,and understand who God is, and what our own potential is and duties are as human beings.- RFK jr. 8/26/2024

@ovals49 he's such a working class hero that the billionaires love him too

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@on the cusp Not that it's entirely fair to compare JFK's short tenure with limited political capital with LBJ's longer tenue with oodles of political capital in the first three years, but historical accomplishments and not unrealized good intentions are all we have to work with.

I'm not excusing or denying LBJ's dreadful foreign policy, but it did rely on JFK holdovers. (FP was never LBJ's thing.) And he does get some credit from me for doing the right thing when public opinion on the Vietnam War was shifting in the opposite direction even as a strong majority continued to support it.

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lies in the smug presumption that if Trump just agrees not to run, he will be able to walk on these unique charges against him. I had this argument during Orange Fartcloud Impeachment II. In response to my carping about how absurd it was to proceed with the impeachment against Private Citizen Trump, the eye-rolling reply was that if convicted, it would keep him from being able to run for Prez again.

My rejoinder then, which I repeat now: that only punishes the people who want to vote for him, and actually does this real OLD guy a favor.

Contempt for people who vote the wrong way is nothing but contempt for democracy, even if you really are smarter than the people who vote wrong.

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I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.