Open Thread - Thurs 18 May 2023: Tipping and Wages
Tipping and Wages:
Should the minimum wage include tips for 'service' jobs? NO. Tips should be extra. I learned this a long time ago, in Europe. Wages were decent there, and the people doing a job which in the USA would be a tipped job, like waiting on tables and so on, were just as good and just as nice as the people doing those jobs in the USA. If you tipped service people in Europe, that was ok, but wasn't required for the worker to get a decent wage.
A waiter in Uptown New Orleans, slicing Pizza at the Ancora Pizzeria (image from Wikimedia Commons).
Recently I decided to find out what the minimum tipped wage was in the USA. It's $2.13/h at the federal level. Tips are supposed to supply an extra $5.12/h (the tip credit) to reach the federal minimum wage of $7.25/h (How low can we go, USA? How low?? Biden? Hello? Hello?) . It wasn't surprising to find that the minimum tipped wage varied by state and most are, thank the gods, above the federal minimum tipped wage. It WAS surprising to me to learn that seven states in the USA don't do tipped wages. Like England and much of Europe, they require employers to pay the minimum wage, or more. So, basically, in those states workers get paid the state's minimum wage, and tips are extra.
My own state, Washington, is one of these seven. Yay! The others are Oregon, Nevada, Montana, Minnesota, California and Alaska. By the way, Washington state has one of the highest minimum wages in the country and it gets raised/adjusted every year. I'm proud of that. Of course we also have a high cost of living, although not that high compared to some states like Hawaii or California or New York, and so on.
I think every state should have minimum wage, not minimum 'tipped' wage, for service workers. And minimum wage should be like $15/hr, right, Biden? Promises? Promises? But maybe I'm crazy!
That's just my little tiny beginning at learning about minimum wages and tipped wages and so on. There is much more to learn! If you have any ideas, information, or thoughts about tipping, minimum wages and so on, please post them in the comments.
So, thanks for reading and here's the open thread - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!
Comments
Happy Thursday!
Hope all is well with you! It's hot here, but not as hot as it has been, pheww. The grass is growing about an inch a day or more, and so green, so green. It'll dry out soon, I bet. Hope everything is green where you are and you are plotting for a great weekend! Let us know what's up, what you are doing/learning/etc!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Tipping points
How in anyones' mind can $2.13 / hr. be considered a livable wage? Oh, I forgot the
service employers associations have determined that is needed to maintain their
profitability. It's like prisoner wages.
Some people will only tip in cash and let the staff figure out the reckoning. That helps.
Some places automatically tack on 15% to the bill. Read the fine print.
These hidden costs for a meal (or whatever service) roll up the bottom line.
Agree minimum wage should be the same, no matter what job is performed.
And $15 barely cuts it. (Inflation anyone?)
I like the idea of the European model, but it gets sticky to ask the waiter what their
minimum wage before figuring the tip. The income tax filing forms always ask for
your total wages, tips, salaries etc. It may be 'less than honest' to not report
untraceable income (cash), but my thinking is corporations and the wealthy
do it all the time - although with fancy accountants doing the cheating for them.
I do not want to get into the newer systems of 'credit card only' driven menus
which I see in airports. And it is getting now to the realm that you need a
smart phone with some app just to order anything.
Grumble, grumble.
Thanks for the OT!
question everything
I tip in cash
most of the time, because those tips aren't counted up by management as part of the cash/billing cycle and redistributed (which makes them subject to withholding and reporting as income).
I have no problem at all supporting that portion of the underground economy which can go unreported as income, especially when it comes to waitstaff. They have it hard enough, without having to then cough up half of it in taxes...
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
All really good points!
Thanks! I don't like credit card only systems either. One of my favorite places, a bakery is like that. But the credit card system the use is Square. I'm told it's better. No idea if it is. And we've got a little to-go place here that only takes cash - the opposite of credit-card only places. Makes sense to me!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning...
We were recently in Mexico where tipping is expected and part of the culture...even for the gas station attendant (who still pumps your gas). I like the idea of tipping to show your appreciation for some service rendered.
However, people should receive a living wage. I like Switzerland approach of a minimum basic SALARY. Some cantons do have a minimum hourly wage as well.
Bottom line, people deserve to live debt free with a livable wage. Student debt has literally enslaved US youth. I've been recommending to my young friends to consider a trade school rather than college. Welders, plumbers, electricians, mechanics, machinists and so on make an excellent wage, are in rare supply, and provide a fairly quick path to a working career...especially if they start in high school.
Hope all is well on the homestead, and thanks for the OT!
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Tipping to show appreciation is a great idea!
And I do that all the time. Tipping as part of the wage sucks, but as a 'thank you' it's great. Gas station attendants doing the pumping... I used to love going through Oregon when they still insisted on that. And I tipped! Heh. Didn't know they still had gas station attendants in Mexico.
How's the harvesting of the veg going? We are not there yet, although close. We are late planting a few things, like potatoes. Luckily, it just means we won't have an early harvest, we'll have a later one. We've had lovely weather the last couple of days, not too hot, not cold. I'm working outside a lot and enjoying it! Hope you are too
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Through my son I learned that Americans are generous
tipping those who do service labour work. And the Germans are lousy when it comes to tips.
https://www.euronews.com/live
Americans are generous tippers...
That's for sure. Perhaps it so the workers can actually make a decent wage? Since that money isn't included in their wages?
Thanks for stopping by, Mimi. It's lovely to 'see' you!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Bernie Sanders unveils plan for $17-an-hour US minimum wage
lol theguardian
I was just reminiscing about the 2015 Bernie campaign, and the daily BNR (bernie news roundup) chats, and how hopeful I was that finally there was gonna be a change... NOPE! lol Same Dshit, Ddifferent day.
And now I'm all like oh well, c'est la vie!
But maybe all that talk helped California "do better". shrug
California’s Minimum Wage to Increase to $15.50 per hour
I don't think ag workers are covered, will have to look it up later if no one beats me to it.
On Cesar Chavez’s birthday, Sonoma County farmworkers still see need for improved conditions
I heard Biden has some fancy wine from Sonoma County at a White House function recently. Or something like that, I can't remember exactly and neither can he (probably). Ha ha! Okay I am off to finish packing.
Thanks Sima, and thanks to all the caucus99percenters. Have great days
Peace and Love
Hola eyo! Thanks for the info on the farm labor situation
in Sonoma County. The UFW managed to get some heat stress related regs passed in Cal, but nothing yet at the federal level. This has been a major issue for years now and there are still enforcement issues in Cal. Sad that UFW membership in Sonoma is so low.
Don't over-exert with that packing process.
take care and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Thanks for the great information!
It's funny, CA upped the minimum wage to 15.50 and WA state upped it (we now have a law in WA state that does this automatically) to 15.74. And I bet, in both places, it's not enough to get by in the cities etc. Actually, in Seattle the minimum wage is higher at 18.69 this year, and it's still not really enough to get by.
Hope the packing went well and you are settling in and doing good. It's great to see you, thanks for stopping by and commenting!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Endless packing and OT for ag workers
hi, I am still packing omg I cannot believe how much crap I have left. At least da phone company showed up and gave me a new phone number and internet access at the new place. Tuesday is the final move, I hope. My neighbors are doing all the heavy lifting, they are awesome.
I looked up the ag worker wages, and they are the same now except for overtime:
New California Overtime Rate in 2023 for Agricultural Employees Working for Employers who Employ 25 or Fewer Employees
... so maybe Bernie can talk for another 8 years to achieve $17/hour minimum? LOL okay.
Peace and Love
I also prefer
the European model, where the staff are paid a reasonable wage and tips are not expected/demanded.
I still tip, however, whenever we receive excellent service- even there. And I found that we received excellent service far more often than not, on our recent international trip. It's amazing to contrast the often-surly service you get here from people paid starvation wages (and made dependent upon the customer's largesse) to what you receive there, from those who are treated as if they have a real, valued job and are properly taken care of...
We made fast friends with the manager, barkeep, and servers at the primary hotel we stayed at. They treated us like freakin' *royalty* from the very outset, and we did indeed tip them at the end of the stay- and they damned well deserved it. Service like that is worth encouraging! And represents just another reason that I'm working hard to go expat, should we live long enough to do so.
Too many US service industry folks have come to realize that under our system there's no way up, other than out, and it can't help but show in their work. As a society, we've created our own downward spiral, there.
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
The European Model works better
for service industry jobs, for sure. I, too, tip when in Europe. It's because I appreciate the well done job. Sounds like you have a great trip there. And Scotland is a wonderful place. Just south of Scotland, in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, is one of the places my husband and I are dreaming of settling, if we can ever leave here. Have a great weekend!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Well, fun info from California:
Min wage = 15.5 x 40 = 620 per 40 hr week & 620 x 50 = 31,000 per year
cheapest 1 br apartment = 1,750 per month = 21,012 per year
NB - you ain't gonna find that apt around here.
so, tipping: we tip, we even tip a little bit (nothing ostentatious) in Europe and xtra for really good service in any case.
Wildlife = there are Bewick's Wrens busy catching food and disappearing into our dryer vent to feed their young. Good thing that we line dry our laundry.
Be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Yep, everywhere, gotta have roommates...
to live in the cheapest housing. It's the same thing in Seattle, even with a minimum wage over 18$. So, have a roommate, a partner, whatever, or live in the parents' basement. Bleh.
Wrens in the dryer vent? Hah! I would only line dry too! In fact, it's now the season here for line drying (hotter, not as wet). We do that, but have to wipe off swallow and other bird poop from the things on the line from time to time
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
It would even be helpful not to tip
All wages should be covered by the employer. If a worker is doing his job he should be paid. Often restaurants, even if they pay above minimum, rely on customers to pay the worker's wages via tips. Servers should get the same decent wages and benefits as anyone else, full time pay, paid vacation, defined benefit plan, health care.
Your point is certainly valid
to some extent, but I question simply "not tipping" as a way to put it into play. That deprives the people with whom you are interacting of a necessary (if not downright critical) part of their income, and they don't have any means to make the rest of the process occur: I've not met many servers who have successfully been able to go to their bosses and demand health insurance, for example.
Anyway, these days they are likely to chase you down the street afterwards. It'd be fun to watch, but ultimately I don't think that it will achieve what you might wish it to achieve. It's a great way to be come a pariah at many establishments.... Ya gotta take it up with the bosses, not with the folks who are merely trying to survive.
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
@usefewersyllables We don't go anywhere
We don't go anywhere requiring tips. Haven't for maybe 20 years. My wife has some ideas which I've conceded she was right about, restaurants is one of them.
Employers pay as little as they possibly can, they always will, it's not that they are evil, it's how our system is set up. If an employer can't get workers they have to increase wages and benefits. Of course govt and laws can help, and they have, but they need to to do a lot more. Plus we need to eliminate this concept of tipping.
Exactly!
Go after the bosses, not the workers. And not tipping, even though it's a valid point, will not hurt the bosses.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Anyone wear soft contact lenses?
.
If so you might want to read this on how they are full of PFAS that go systemically throughout your body and cause lots of nasty disorders. I bet that the FDA will be investigating this soon and if they find any problems they will say that no safety issues were detected.
Also too
Starbucks and Amazon are rolling out biometric payments where people get a chip embedded in their hand to pay for coffee and food at both places. The article says that the elderly aren’t big fans of the system, but you know that whatever the PTB have planned for us is always targeted at the younger generations. Also Wendy’s is going to go thoroughly automated and people can order at an outside kiosk and the food is delivered from underground. Not sure how many jobs they will take away from people.
Another also too is John Kerry wants small farmers to be outlawed in order to address climate change and fit the green new deal! I’m sure taking people’s farms away on made up pretenses is not covered in the patriot act.
Not sticking a chip in my hand to buy from..
Starpucks or Amagong. Gag! Just Gag!
Kerry coming after small farmers? He'll have to get over my fork digger to do it.
Thanks for the news! I'm kinda glad I don't wear contacts, after reading this. Have a great weekend, hope it is nice and you and the dawg get a good walk or two
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
nt
https://www.euronews.com/live
Who's ready for some good news!?
https://khmezek.substack.com/p/the-luddite-kids-saying-no-to-smartphones
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
Personally do not own a smart phone
Never have and never will. Got turned off at the early onset of the tech by the way
the little devices sucked out peoples brains. Why think if you have a little box to
accomplish that task for you? Maybe I'm unreachable to to the marketeers, but then
from a different universe anyway. Marketing and finance were punishable crimes
in that space time.
question everything
Go Kids!
I resisted smart phones for a long time. I have one now, but I do not use it for phone calls! I only use it for text messages and solitaire games. Heh.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
It is not easy to fight against TPTB.
smart man
do your own research
protect your children
question everything
In his interview on Breaking Points
RFK Jr said one of the first things he'd do as president was pardon Julian Assange. And end our participation in the Ukraine War.
I guess he's got my vote at this point. Those two things really matter to me. I don't watch the mainstream media so... what they think doesn't matter to me, although I know it does for a lot of the country.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Since May second
the Writer's Guild Of America has been on strike. There are rumors that some Teamsters have been crossing the picket lines. Say it ain't so....
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/05/18/team-m18.html
Rhetorical question...Does the above linked article illustrate another example of controlled opposition/bought and paid-for officials?
edited for spelling
I can't answer the rhetorical question...
But it is sad how 'bought' the Teamster leadership can be.
Thanks for the link to the article!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Basic decency
demands that people who work for a living deserve a living wage. That's just basic. I think we should do way better than basic.
So, yea Sima, I agree with you and your argument about wages/tips etc. Thanks for the OT and the conversation.
Glad to hear it is cooling down a bit up there in your neck of the woods. I just saw on the t.v. that here we have only had 5 days of 90 or above so far this whole year as opposed to last year on this date we had 21 days of 90 degrees or above. Whoever is responsible for our lovely spring this year, I am very appreciative.
Lovely Spring Weather...
Rocks. Only 5 days above 90? That rocks too. We've broken local records here in the last week or so but have cooled down and are set to cool down further. Gonna be 'May Jacket' season next week, maybe!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
More on the writers
and especially more on those that employ them from the WSWS. This is an interesting article if only because there are some cool comparisons. I do love comparing stuff, it gives one a certain perspective.
The final salvo is this;
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/05/12/film-m12.html
That is a comforting thought
question everything
I can just see
all those right-wing heads exploding if the term "class struggle" hits the MSM. Oh, my Gawd, the pearl-clutching will be biblical in scope.
"Commie words! Commie words! AaAAaAAAgh...."
Can't wait to see the efforts to ban those words used together in a sentence. We're calling it that because that is precisely what it is, you yobbos...
Where's my popcorn?
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
Yes, you are right
the language manipulators will have a field day with that phrase
maybe associate class with high school and mix-up the meaning
of struggle with weight loss or some such
question everything
Ouch.
The latter could be *deadly*. I can see it now: the script just writes itself.
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
This was funny...
in a sad, but probably eventually true, way!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I would prefer that wait staff
could have living wages. Until then, we are very generous tippers. I occasionally leave some cash under a pillow in a motel room for the cleaning staff. I absolutely did when traveling outside the US. I tipped absolutely everyone in every country I ever visited. Guides, wait staff, hotel staff, drivers...everybody. (Except in Paris. Assholes everywhere I went.)
I have a client who was working as a security guard in the Texas prison system. She was making about $1,600 per month. She quit, got a waitress gig at a nice seafood restaurant at the north suburban edge of Houston. She makes $300 in tips on average per night.
She had some benefits in the State job, none in the waitress job. Terrible trade off, but I am glad she is away from prison. They had assigned her to the Death Row inmate section. Those guards suffer trauma when they get to know an inmate pretty personally. When they have to escort the inmate to their death, they often have doubts about an inmate's guilt. Bad stuff all the way around.
Meanwhile, I am only 3 days from some Cajun music, and we will have cash for tips.
Thanks, Sima! I hope you and the kids are ok!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
We're all doing fine right now!
Hope the trip to Cajun land is fun for music and food!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
It will be a blast!
My husband moved here from the mid-west, where it is farm land, then congested city. On and on. Some lovely small communities in between.
In Texas, we have all terrains, every flora and fauna you can imagine, and we are the state that was under 6 flags, with cultures to go along with that.
Mexico, Spain, Confederacy, France, Republic of Texas, US, and lots of cultural and social impact of that is with us today. Not to forget, a huge native American presence and influence. I live 30 minutes from a reservation.
All of this is how we talk, how and what we eat, what music we produce, how we entertain, and what gave us our basic attitude.
We go Cajun this Sunday, then Austin outlaw country music festival in Luckenbach next weekend, with German influence.
In the bayous Sunday, in the foothills next weekend.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Note from the trenches
Tipping was always problematic for me. I always found myself begging for tips - it was demeaning and ultimately insulting. It got worse when taxis in SF started accepting credit cards. First it was that credit cards were authorized through cell phone connections, but cell service in SF was terribly spotty. when the system (not your phone, it had to be the system's) didn't connect you had to make an impression and take it to the dispatcher at the end of your shift - often losing more money by checking in early than you made accepting the card. Then the customer found out that a card can only be processed once. The customer would tell you to charge the exact fare then once you did so he would say "now add $x". But you cannot do that. He got to no tip you and make it seem like your fault. Mostly this was the companies torturing their drivers, but they did so to break the relationship between the customer and the driver. It was impossible to tell how often it was the customer and when it was an honest misunderstanding. Either way you lose.
On to Biden since 1973
We went for a music event in the Beaumont area
and had a Domino's Pizza delivered. We paid, and I asked if the guy had any Parmesan cheese or red pepper. No, had to be ordered. We gave him a big tip.
5 minutes later, he came to the door, gave us a big bag of packets of the cheese and crushed red pepper. He said his bosses were stupid, the policies were stupid, and that he had worked all day, and we were his first tippers. We felt so badly for him.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Thanks for this!
I am going to remember, if I'm ever in a situation like that, to add the tip BEFORE the charge is made to the card. Sheez. What a mess the charge system makes. And relying on cell phones? Gads.
Begging for tips is demeaning and insulting and shouldn't have to be done. I'm very sorry you had to do it. That such begging does have to be done in this supposedly 'best country in the world' sucks.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so