Open Thread - Thurs 30 Mar 2023: Learning in the Zoo
![](https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1493/26212496565_b2b949e0a3.jpg)
Learning in the Zoo: Cobby Taught Me!
Many years ago, in the mid 1980's, I was very tiny part of the start of a study on captive chimpanzees. This study was called Chimpanzoo and it was created under the auspices of Dr. Jane Goodall. It is still continued to this day, after beginning in 1984!
Chimpanzoo recruited(s) volunteers from amongst anthropology students and graduate students to go to their local zoos and observe the chimpanzees in those zoos, using methods similar to those used by Dr. Goodall in her studies of chimps in the wild. We, because I was one of those volunteers, took observations of what the chimps under study were doing, every minute. This was an attempt to quantify how the behaviour of captive chimps varied from that of wild chimps, amongst other things.
The zoo I went to was in San Francisco. In the mid 1980's the zoo did not have a modern chimpanzee enclosure, although the zoo did have a brand new Gorilla enclosure, which was amazing, and the smaller monkey enclosures at the zoo were pretty nice too.
The chimps, however, had the standard enclosure of the time, a concrete 'island' with a 'moat' to keep the chimps away from the crowds of humans watching them (or vice versa, to be honest). There was a toy or two, a hanging car tire to play on, a piece of dead tree, some carted in pieces of branch and leaves, and a shade area. It was standard for most of the zoos of the time. It was drab, it was depressing and I hated that the chimps were stuck in it. It was SO BORING.
Observing the chimps' behaviour was always interesting, and always educational. I quickly realized that chimps and humans are bunched together on a simple continuum of life and behaviour. It was obvious that we are almost the same, that it's gradations of difference, not huge canyons of difference, which separate us (ohh and that damned moat, that separated us too). For more on this, see Franz de Waal's recent book (2017), Are we Smart enough to know how Smart Animals Really Are?.
There were four chimps at the zoo: one male, named Cobby, and three females, Minnie, Tallulah, and Maggie. They all had different, interesting, personalities. Much of the time they were active, although often they seemed to be bored. Cobby did what all male apes do, he looked over, protected and took care of his females. He was very kind to them in his chimp way.
But, what was there for him to protect his female chimps from? Well, sometimes that crowd of human chimps, the ones standing on the other side of the moat and to the side of those little lady human chimps who sat on the bench behind the hedge of bushes, watching him and his women intently, with pencils and notebooks in their hands (in other words me and my fellow volunteers at Chimpanzoo). The human chimps in the crowd, not always but far too often for my liking, male and female, would hoot and holler, point and laugh and mock Cobby and his ladies. The male human chimps were especially mean and rude. They would march around, acting as they thought Cobby did, but not realizing the reasons he did it. They would hoot and huff, and scratch under their arm pits. They would raise their shoulders and make gestures with their hands. They would say things like, 'Stupid monkey… dumb-ass… ugly bastard…'.
The male humans' gestures and words made me angry. And the simpering of their wives and girlfriends, the laughter of their children, just made it worse. I'm pretty sure Cobby felt the same. Cobby would respond, because, you know, those human chimps were talking in his language, making his gestures and he knew what they meant. They were threatening him, mocking him. Some of those humans would throw little rocks or stones at him. This was against the zoo rules, but the humans still did it.
And Cobby would get angrier and angrier, rightfully so. He'd stomp around the island, making his own gestures and calls. He'd throw the rocks back at them. The male humans would laugh, their women would twitter and giggle, and the male humans would imitate Cobby even more.
After a while, maybe 5 or 10 minutes, it was too much for Cobby. He'd look around, pause and furtively squat, with his hands under himself. We Chimpanzoo observers would immediately duck down behind the hedge, with just our eyes showing above it so we could do our work. Cobby would glance at us. Was it in approval? I don't know. Unbeknownst to the male human chimps, Cobby was squatting to crap in his hand.
And so, there Cobby was with a handful of poo. The next hoot, the next mocking stomp, the next tossed rock, was met with a forcefully thrown handful of chimpanzee poo. He usually hit some of idiots in the crowd, and they'd stagger away, gagging, their female companions giggling and laughing at them. The current idiots would quickly disappear, but new idiots always seemed to show up soon enough, unfortunately.
Cobby threw his ladies' crap as well. If he could find something that he could throw, he'd throw it. But the best was when it was his own, personal, steaming, crap. It made me proud of him, in a weird way, proud to realize how he was trying to protect his 'people' in whatever way he could. And the humans' actions made me disgusted. Mocking animals shows how stupid we are at times, I think. Cobby, Maggie, Minnie and Tallulah taught me so much about the dignity, the worth, the intelligence of other animals.
I never forgot all that they taught me. Because of Cobby and the others, I am able to see my farm animals as individuals worthy of respect and love and attention. Because of them, I learned to see the whole world that way.
Cobby passed away about two years ago. He was 63, older than I am now. Thank you Cobby, thank you. I'm so glad your life was long, and full, and San Fran treated you well.
We are heartbroken to share the sad news of the passing of our beloved Cobby, 63-year-old male chimpanzee. Cobby, a gentle soul, brought a calming presence to our troop of seven and was a protective companion to Minnie and Maggie, who he lived with for 42 years. pic.twitter.com/WLFoJk9e1u
— San Francisco Zoo (@sfzoo) June 6, 2021
So, thanks for reading and here's the open thread - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!
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Happy Thursday Everyone!
Yesterday was marvelous, warmish, sunny, nice for being outside. So I was! Spring has definitely sprung, even if it's a bit colder than normal here. Jaska is really improving, walking eagerly, if like an old dog, which she is. She limps but it doesn't seem to stop her, I think it's 'just' arthritis now. She even jumps up on things some times, and here's the cutie proof!
![jaska_jumped_up_mar_2023.jpg](/sites/default/files/user_images_3/jaska_jumped_up_mar_2023.jpg)
Jaska did this on her own, jumping up and sleeping on 'her' chair. She hasn't been up there since the leg infection! I dunno if this will be regular, she is really weak now, like all old things. But, she's happy and she's jumping!
Hope the day and the week have gone well for everyone. Post whatever you are thinking/doing/learning below, we wanna read it!
Edited to Add thanks to joe shikspack for posting the outcome of the lawsuit against the Internet Archive to Monday's Evening Blues. It's a sad outcome, but not unexpected. Let's keep fighting for the archive!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Definitely good news
about Jaska. All our pets are older critters, and they are all slowing down noticeably- the 16-year-old cat can still run rings around the 13-year-old dog, though.
I'm very bummed about the Wayback Machine. Funny bit of synchronicity: Brewster Kahle was a classmate of mine in college, and we carpooled to our co-op engineering jobs at the same company during the summer break for a couple of summers. He went to Thinking Machines right out of school, and then left them to go do the Wayback Machine. I haven't talked to him in *years*, and really ought to give him a call and see how he's doing. He's a good guy, through and through...
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
Wow, you know Brewster Kahle?
Very cool. I bet there's some good memories there! Thanks for sharing that info. It's so neat to find out some broader connections, and to know that people I 'know' now are very good and hung out with very good people.
Jaska just had her small portion of my ham sandwich. She is now having a nap. Of course! Our cats are a little older than Jaska, and they too run rings around her! Reyna, the dog we had before Jaska, was basically guided around the farm, to all the inetresting areas such as the compost heap, by our very old cat (at the time). The cat would push the dog in whatever direction the cat wanted to go, by rubbing on the dog's front legs. Worked every time!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
There were a number
of people (who would turn out to be very good people) running around there at the time. There was one project that was a magnet for really good software types, and a lot of us undergrads got to rub up against some very heavy hitters if we hung around there (the Architecture Machine, or ArcMac for short). Stallman was there, and a whole bunch of people who later went on to do the EFF, Thinking Machines, and so on. I think that Thinking Machines was nearly 100% ArcMac types in their early going.
Many of those folks would go on to do Great Things (®™). The rest of us, of course, just went on to do Things. I was a hardware type, so I never really fit in that well with those software guys. Talk about "learning in the zoo"! We had no idea what was going to become of us at the time...
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
I'm thinking that you went to a very...
good college. By that I mean, civically responsible, socially aware, to get so many to work on EFF. It's funny, I grew up in Silicon Valley (my parents moved there when it was still almost all agriculture). Dad helped start a company there. Anyway, back then, the engineers and computer types I knew as a kid were all very lefty, very socially aware, and willing to work to improve everyone's lives, not just their own. When financial concerns took over the businesses, many of them, including my Dad, quit. Wonder if that was a characteristic of computer people at the time?
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
That's great news about Jaska, so good to hear!
Spring in Chicago brought snow yesterday and 70 degrees manyana.
You gotta love it, a winter coat to shorts in no time at all.
Animals are amazing creatures, so it kinda makes me wonder if
humans are animals also. Ya we are told many stories about
how we are so superior to all the animals that walk this planet
but are we really. Birds sing, sheep baa, dogs bark, whales sing
and all living animals communicate in their very own way. I wonder
if they get the impression that humans are idiots cuz they don't
communicate in a way that they understand? Food for thought regardless.
Outside of being cage it seems that for the most part that Cobby
led a good life living to the age of 62. I checked w/Wiki about the
average lifespan of Chimp's for 62 seemed to be up there and Wiki
said the average lifespan was around 12 years, so I'm not sure if
they count it like in dog years or not.
Thanks for sharing this Sima. Since the start of Covid I've come to
start appreciating nature in ways I never did before and even though
I'm late to the game the beauty you see everywhere makes it quite
worth the show we were lucky enough to see.
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
Spring.. warm, cold, warm, cold, rain, snow, sun, wind, warm...
Sounds like Spring to me. The shifts aren't as broad as you are getting there in Chicago - snow and then 70. We are having 30s, then 60s, then 40s, then rain, then sun... and on and on here in the Pac NW. No snow near sea level though (crossed fingers).
Humans are animals, smart, but animals none the less. We don't seem to realize that. Think about how much work an animal like a dog, or a cat, or a horse, or whatever animal, has to do to interact with us. Yes, we do a lot of work too, but the animal is not in control and yet still can respond. It still learns to watch our face, our hands, our body language, or our smell, or our words... And we just say, 'Jaska, sit!'. Heh.
Thanks for stopping by and reading and leaving such a great comment!
Ohh I checked out wiki too, and it said that the average lifespan was about 45 years? So I dunno. It takes them about 12 years to get into adulthood? Very human-like, in a way!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good day
Thanks for the hairless monkey lessons. Human arrogance seems to know no
bounds. We are all interconnected on this space ship.
Birthdays of some musicians you may have heard -
Eric Clapton 78 ~
Tracy Chapman 59 ~
Emmylou Harris 76 ~
Enjoy!
truth is considered foreign influence, world peace is a threat to national security
Oops, Emmylou is not until 2 APR
but included today is Nora Jones ~ 44
truth is considered foreign influence, world peace is a threat to national security
Wonderful songs
They brought me back to some old scenes and relationships that now seem like a distant dream. My favorite part of driving OTR was to get a load to the West Coast so I could drive across that vast beautiful landscape.
I liked Jared Diamond's book The Third Monkey.
When driving and listening to his Bluesville channel, I heard BB King say said that Joe opened for him during some of his concerts.
語必忠信 行必正直
Liked that book too
I knew it as 'The Third Chimpanzee'. I got it in England. It was good!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Yes, the Third Chimpanzee
語必忠信 行必正直
Great videos!
And great birthdays too! Tracey Chapman, man, are we (me and her) old. I'm only a year older, I thought I would be like 10 years... heh. Eric Clapton, wow. Such great music from all of them, Emmylou and Nora too!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Excellent timing on the real world example
of our current treatment in this dystopia. As I read your description my thought went to the answer to the obvious question... Just which of the 3 players in this encounter describes us, we the people?
I think I identify more with Cobby. Put into a particular category in society, one which changes depending on which player needs me in a category so they can further their agenda. Ie, slap a label on my forehead and that gives them an easy way to deal with their needs. Nothing I can do but throw poo.
Or find a distraction and move on with my life.
Which brings me to my Android/Linux project. In times long past I was involved with the Linux movement in my job. It was in the 90s, a conference in San Diego and I was in the audience for a Torwalds presentation. I could see the potential as I later reported to my bosses... but there was no one in charge. Very, very talented people but no vision for the future of a good end user product.
No Jobs or Gates to decide the best approach and direct the resources to a specific goal. I might hate their implementation but ... And now 25 years later the industry players have built a profit driven wall, a big strong one and they are fighting for dominance.
(added on edit) As I am seeing it, the whole apps/Java business is one monstrous trip down a rabbit hole. Pure gadgetry garbage distracting from real progress. Lord, the "Don't Look Up" thing is driving me more crazy than I am. Worse than Idiocracy.
Meanwhile I have the most awesome piece of hardware that I have ever encountered that has a window into the greatest encyclopedia in the history of the world and I can hold it in the palm of my hand. A far cry from that very first vacuum tube drum memory machine that was handed to me by the head of the engineering dept in my college because he didn't have anyone else to hand it to. I wasn't even an engineering candidate.
Fun times. Thanks.
Great comment on cell phones and...
Linux and more. I have yet to see Torvalds give a talk, in person that is. I use my cell phone a lot, but still have a 'real' computer. Heh, compared to the computers that my Dad's company used, this computer is tiny! Remember having to use cards to code? *Shiver*
As for flinging poo, sometimes that's all we can do. I really relate to Cobby with that as well.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning...
Interesting project and story. I normally pity the animals in zoos, and much prefer seeing them in their natural environment. Chimps and humans are very similar...both in the habit of throwing shit at one another.
Glad to see Jaska improving. End of life with pets is always a challenge. I'm sure you're both enjoying each other.
Take care and happy gardening!
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Happy Gardening to you too!
I have to admit, I don't really like zoos at all. After I changed Uni's and stopped being part of Chimpanzoo, I never went to a zoo. I know zoos can do good work, but I still don't go. I want to free the animals! So, I'd rather watch a David Attenborough show, or something like that. On the other hand, some animals have no 'wild' areas left for them. Zoos, and the like, are it, and can go a lot of good for those animals. Still, it's so, so sad.
Have a great weekend!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Did you vote to give up your rights to the global parasite clas?
.
I didn’t!
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Voting is like driving with a toy steering wheel.
I'm not constitution scholar
Fascism is now totally embraced by the D's. When we side
with a jerk like Johnson over the D's you have to admit
how far right the D's have gone
https://www.theautomaticearth.com/2023/03/debt-rattle-march-30-2023/
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
I agree, but….
It’s how it has been worded that makes it legal for Biden to give away our rights. One of the biggest changes in this bill is doing away with the wording of protecting human rights. And congress had the chance to change that.
Katherine Watts writes about this and shows how the senators voted.
Roguski has been doing tremendous work trying to educate people about how bad this would be for us and it’s worth looking at this essay by him.
This seems to be a bad thing for the world to lose don’t you think?
Remember that the WHO declared the pandemic when only 40 people had gotten sick or died and even less people were infected with monkeypox that is still considered a pandemic even though it only targets a very select group of people who do a certain thing. Of course the WHO dude running the circus never mentioned how they could protect themselves.
Taibbi recently took democrats to task for abandoning the values that they used to fight for and here they are again abandoning more of our rights. This should have gotten more attention, but….
Ah well we only miss things once they are gone right? And when there’s a very small chance that we can get them back.
Also this bill was added on to the bill to revoke the AUMF that lets presidents go to war without the authorization from Congress. Rights-Rules? We make the rules which to us are always right.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Voting is like driving with a toy steering wheel.
I sure didn't vote that way either!
Gads, I don't want to be ruled, errr ruled more, by the global elite. Damn them!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I do not know why it happened or how long it will last but...
https://twitter.com/RealScottRitter
Ukrainian trolls
I agree, could be trolls..
Or maybe some governmental types are even more mad at Ritter.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Nothing to worry about folks. This big guy has everything
under control.
Yesterday
Are we really gonna have to choose..
between voting for this guy? Or for Trump?
This video makes me thing of my beloved father, who is in the late stages of dementia and can't tell a fork from a spoon. I'm amazed at whatever kind of drugs they are giving Biden, but then he's a few years younger than my father (just a few) and so maybe not 'late stage' yet...
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
This image seems to suit your opening statement Sima
Great picture!
I completely agree with the statement the ape is making!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Hi all,
Hi Sima, Hope it's all good out there!
GREAT story here... and a hat tip to Cobby's heart and spirit! How cool to get to do... When I was watching primates as a teen, it was because of my dad's Anthro classes at CSU LongBeach had him doing it. Maybe 68-69 or so... But he was watching Rhesus which I was not crazy about. You would find me over at the Gibbons, which are poetry in motion if there ever was such a thing. Most fluid actions in the animal world. There were no Chimps or big apes at this place (was Prentiss Park, now Santa Ana Zoo).
One thing I never cease to be amazed by is the pinpoint accuracy with which the feces is flung. We have baseball pitchers that practice years and years hoping to throw with the innate accuracy seemingly possessed by all primates save Homo (sapiens) ignoramus.
Thanks for the great story and OT!
be well all!
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein
I liked Gibbons better than...
Rhesus monkeys too. Dunno why. Cool, though, that your Dad got to observe them! Anthropology is fun that way. San Fran was the closest zoo to us with chimps. So, that's where we went.
I think my favorite small monkeys are marmosets, because they are kinda cuddly cute.
Cobby's ability to hit the people torturing him with such accuracy still amazes me. He never, ever, got even a molecule of the stuff on us observers. But usually got one of the taunters in the face!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Jaska rocks!
I loved zoos until That first trip to S. Africa. It was there that I was the one in the cage. The van. I was the one trying to wear clothes that were a match for the grass. I was the one who made no sudden movements. I was in their realm, quietly observing them live, and die. I saw and heard communications, maneuvers, rage, fright, cunning, patience, and adoration and respect. In part of that first safari, I was on horseback. I was riding a half-broke Appaloosa, short reins. When we rode up to the rhinos, we were silent, dropped the horse's reins so they could eat grass alongside the rhinos. To hang onto the reins, I had to lean forward, did not have the capability to get my camera out and snap pictures. All memories of this are in my head, nowhere else. While galloping in a jungle area with lot baboons, they were at war, jumping limb to limb overhead, my Appaloosa was frantic, but we got away without mishap. The horse didn't buck, so there's that.
When the lions were asleep on the bridge, we stopped the van. It is their territory, we were the intruders, and we waited until they finished their nap, walked off, then we drove across the bridge.
Ever since that trip, I can not go to a zoo. We should be caged, not these magnificent animals.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
I really loved zoos too...
Until after I started the volunteering with the Chimpanzoo project. I always really liked Sea World type shows/places. But one day I went to a show at one in the Bay Area with my friends from college and realized I hated it. I hated seeing those beautiful animals performing for us. Heck, I could have taken a boat ride out into the Bay and seen some of those same animals leaping, spinning and enjoying their lives in freedom. So I decided to do that instead of patronizing zoos and animal shows.
Now, I know some animals and humans are partners and work together and the animals are treated well. Horses, donkeys, dogs, cats, cattle, goats... and more. We all work together, and the animals, even if they are meant for food, can have marvelous lives. Maybe zoos are the same, some treat their animals really well, others, like the way factory farms treat food animals, are crap.
Anyway, thanks for stopping by and sharing those memories of your first safari. It sounds like it was marvelous and really, really eye-opening!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
thanks for the memories
brought back quite a few. Seeing Dr Goodall guest lecturing in a Marine Mammals class almost 40 years ago. Then to recall my near miss with a zoo career at the impetus of an inside opportunity. The founder of the Honolulu Zoo took a shine to me out in the desert in 87. Put in the word with the San Diego Zoo honcho and told me I could go there and drive a tour bus. That is NO small offer. Getting work at a zoo is not the easiest thing, loads of volunteer effort usually required. If I had accepted this magnificent offer, I would have been on the inside track always. I chose to stay home near relatives (in hindsight, thankfully, they all departed one way or another far too soon) and if I had gone down that path, I would either be dead or missing fingers due to my interest in reptiles with dangerous capabilities. Ultimately, the situation with our planet, environment, habitat destruction, the futility of captive propagation and the corporate control of community interests would have been so dissatisfying. A lot more fun that what did happen, Im sure. after your post I did a little searching to see the fellow who supported this passed a few years ago. He maintained Jack Lord's aquarium, if I recall correctly. Thank you for your confidence, Mr Breese.
Thank you for the reminders, OP.
I love 'wild' animals...
would have liked to work with them maybe in a zoo, but have come to the same conclusions you have. Thank you for talking about your journey to those conclusions!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Hi Sima
What a wonderful story. It's a treat to read about your experiences with animals and your study of anthropology. Thank you.
Thank YOU for reading!
Am very glad you stopped by and hope you are doing well!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so