Open Thread - Thurs 23 Mar 2023: The Internet Archive

The Internet Archive

The Internet Archive, also known as the Wayback Machine, is a 'non-profit library of millions of free books, movies, software, music, websites, and more'.

The part of it known as the Wayback Machine has over 800 billion snapshots of websites taken throughout the history of the Internet. Wanna see how a website has changed? The Wayback Machine can help with that. Wanna see if a website has removed some content, for whatever reason? The Wayback Machine can often show you the removed content. Wanna see an old website that's been removed? The Wayback Machine can help with that too!

As for books, well, I love the Internet Archive for that. Much like google books, but predating it, and non-profit, the Internet Archive has scans of over 37 million books and texts. These books can be old, out of print, hard to access through a library... but there they are, scanned and available to all. The Internet Archive is a great resource for music too, and movies and more.

Recently, four giant publishers have sued the Internet Archive over digital books. During the Covid crisis, the Archive let children (and others) borrow e-books, to use and read at home, without fees and other restrictions, because the children (and others) couldn't access schools and/or physical libraries. This lawsuit

against the nonprofit Internet Archive threatens the future of all libraries. Big publishers are suing to cut off libraries’ ownership and control of digital books, opening new paths for censorship. Oral arguments are on March 20.

(emphasis mine). But, note that this article from Vox says the lawsuit might not be the 'existential threat' to the Internet Archive that it seems it could be.

The Internet Archive is being defended by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) with co-counsel Durie Tangri. This article on the EFF website explains more about the lawsuit and what's being targeted. Basically the Internet Archive (and other libraries) have developed a program called 'Controlled Digital Lending' (CDL). This program lets people borrow digital books (e-books) much like they'd borrow a physical book from a library. The digital book can be checked out

for two weeks or less, and only permits patrons to check out as many copies as the Archive and its partner libraries physically own. That means that if the Archive and its partner libraries have only one copy of a book, then only one patron can borrow it at a time, just like any other library. Through CDL, the Internet Archive is helping to foster research and learning by helping its patrons access books and by keeping books in circulation when their publishers have lost interest in them.

Here's another summary article by the EFF explaining CDL and what the lawsuit means. And another about the summary judgement for which the EFF filed.

As mentioned above, the oral arguments happened just a couple of days ago. I don't know the official outcome, it hasn't been released yet. This twitter account has a lot of tweets about the Internet Archive and the lawsuit and its affects on libraries (digital and physical). These tweets include commentary and transcriptions of the oral arguments presented to the judge on March 20 as well as links to other articles about the lawsuit and about CDL and libraries.

I guess the thing that strikes me, and depresses me, is how indicative this whole lawsuit is of the way the internet is being closed down, monetized, and basically, destroyed. Ok, maybe not completely destroyed, but a lot of the stuff I love is being removed or ruined or stifled. All for the sake of the almighty dollar. Let's hope the judge rules fairly and lets CDL become a path for book lending for libraries in the digital future.

I can understand wanting one's book to 'sell', all authors want that, including me. Authors also want tons of people to read their book(s), and I know that libraries, digital and physical, are the way that will happen. I guess that puts me at odds with publishers and on the side of the Internet Archive.

So, thanks for reading and here's the open thread - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!

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Sima's picture

The last two days here have been beautiful - warmish, sunny, lovely for working outside. Unfortunately, today has rain, possibly thunder and lightning, possibly hail, sleet and snow, forecast. Highs are supposed to be 10 to 20 degrees below normal. I guess it's a good thing I'm going into town to pick up my tax returns from my accountant. Yea, I should do them myself but... it's just easier this way. So, here's a pretty picture of something very, very Spring-y! A bumblebee on some chives!
bumble_chives_sml.jpg
I hope everyone has a good day, and post whatever you want below. We wanna read it!

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

They had a tunnel under the foundation supporting the chimney - I was down there replacing carpenter ant-eaten floor joists, we got along fine. Was working down there when word came over the radio that Iraq war one had been launched.

House was basically a shotgun shack, but nearly 100 years old then & I think still standing - wonder if the bees have survived.

My former Internet 'home' was dailypaul.com, which around 2015 became popularliberty.com only to, after a couple years bleep out of existence under unclear circumstances.

Thanks to the Wayback Machine, here it is from this week ten years ago:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130328201713/http://www.dailypaul.com/

Lead story: Rand Paul endorses Mitch McConnell over Tea Party primary challenger. Wonder how Rand views that decision now? Good essay by Nelson Hultenberger on intellectuals and ideology...

Internet Archive overall quite amazing, hope it will survive and prosper.

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Sima's picture

@Blue Republic
We get those too. I hate hurting anything, even ants, but... I make an exception for things that eat my house! Also, those ants that herd and guard aphids? Yea, not keen on those either.

I think maybe the bumblebees have survived, although can't be sure. We get a lot of bees here because we, and the neighbors, don't use stuff that'll kill them. We have people who have beehives for honey nearby, we get those bees visiting for nectar. I welcome them all! Our house is only 30 years or so old, but the farm on the hill is over 100 like your shotgun shack was.

Nice link on the wayback machine. Funny (not really) how we're still hearing about the same people.

Great video too.

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

The Internet Archive is a great resource. I'm surprise it hasn't been forced into bankruptcy or taken in a hostile takeover. Unfortunately, this the USA, and anything that can be monetized will be. If somebody needs or wants to use something, they should pay. Once that happens, then tier it so you can sell different levels of service, then add fees. Imagine an entire nation running on the cable tv model. Then imagine a government running on the same model. We don't count, only the money that can be extracted from us does.

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Sima's picture

@Snode
of its links to the open source community and the EFF. And because so many use it, use the library, and of course it's got mutual support from brick and mortar libraries too.

That cable tv model? I think we are almost there with politics. Dang it. And the economy sure is moving in the direction you are pointing out. Maybe it always is, and people fighting it, when they do, is what pauses it or makes it step backwards a bit. I dunno.

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

and I take regular advantage of them. The argument against them cannot be attacked from a business model standpoint so those who would exploit the value of them (the real value, not the monetary value) use whatever means available to shutdown their competition.

If they cannot compete with a valid effective business model, they eliminate competition by using "legal" means... using a legislative system which was monopolized beforehand. BTW, I believe that's the way the neolibcon crowd forces regime change in any "targetted" indigenous societies, ie, take over the judicial system and then use the "new and improved" rules instead of laws... but I digress.

I have been fighting this battle with the anti-library privateers for the last 15 years or so. In my case the access is being restricted. The effect is akin to having a new retail giant "invest" in a highway offramp that makes it convenient for their store and reduces access to a competing store across the highway. The only people who will go to the competition are those who accept the inconvenience. The Amazon model.

I use the hel out of my Kindle and the traditional library system ever since "discovering" it. Before that I used Adobe and the .pdf reader. Ahh, another story in the pipe. From the exploiters: Why use a separate reader when the browser will do it? Hmm, dumb question... for the same reason I disconnect from outside when reading some stuff... like my real estate contract when I sold my home. Those guys hate air gapped security.

I started using library genesis about 4 or 5 years ago. The archive.org is good but there are some books that I have a need for regular reference. Not to sell, I would never consider that. But I need (well, maybe come to depend upon) a copy in my digital bookcase. Most of the time I had a physical copy but would like the convenience of a digital copy. One which I cherish is "Once an Eagle" by Myrer. I read it long ago from my local library and was very taken by it. I couldn't find a copy anywhere. Except a library in Singapore (if memory serves). A bit rough in their transcribing but I can deal with it. It clicked with me because it matched my experience with the bureaucracy I encountered in my job. I believe it has been reading at the War College... Oh no, another story.

The access to the Singapore library was thru a web site in Serbia (guessing here). As an aside, one of ru's reverse sanctions I believe is that they don't agree with the west's copyright "laws" and have made the decision that any library under their purview will be free(!) and open(!). Oops, scary shit here... Another story. Note to self: Stay on topic, indy.

Ahh, there's trouble in kindle paradise... The way the library systems use digital is by means of epub formats. Epub is a recognized int'l standard. It's not overly complicated from a technical standpoint, just a rendering system using script control into a browsing model. There are quite a few different models but epub is one which was adopted by the kindle. The reader I used was Overdrive. While designed for an interface in the world it will work on local epub files.

That is where the attack on me personally is. The library systems are being coopted by the privateers. Sold to the local library as a money-saving aid. The new Libby system links the library into the monopolization business model. My "new and improved" library is Washington Anytime. It decides what I have available and how I need to "identify" myself when reading it. BTW, the last book I looked for I could put on hold... first on zero copies.

Ahh, get back on track: I still use my local copy of Overdrive on my kindle. Its days are numbered. I think Amazon has a different reader but to get to it I need to be using a device I bought from them. Having a library card doesn't work.

I have a couple of defunct smart phones... androids. Lots of capability. Can't get an epub reader. Hel, the thing won't even do pdf's. Brick. Long ago I would have built my own readers... but that was then...

This is now.

Please enjoy your day. Next time I might mention how T-mobile is trying to kill the Mint competition.

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Sima's picture

@exindy
My experiences mirror yours, a bit. I use linux, so I do have access to epub readers, and pdf readers, on my computer. I've one called 'foliate' which works ok.

I don't read books on my phone, but I did notice that the google play store has some epub readers. Mind you, they all have ads. Every 30 seconds sometimes, it seems.

I use(d) my local library a lot. 15 years ago, 10 years ago, maybe even 5 years ago, the interlibrary loan was awesome. I got a book from Australia on ILL for academic research. It was awesome, like I said. Now, it seems to be monetized. The library's online system has changed, is harder to use, is monetized. Bleh.

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2 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

enhydra lutris's picture

I've been a long-time supporter of both the Internet Archive (Archive.org) and EFF.org. Both are valuable resources in their own way and are always in need of more funding than they seem to get, so folks should add them to the list of worthy causes that could use a little bread now and then. The archive also has some public domain e-books free for the download, as does project gutenberg.

Have a break in the storms today, or so they are predicting, at least part of the day, which makes it yet another errand day. It beats cleaning the office which is a complete shambles for reasons, but too close to desert trip to start that, so ...

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Sima's picture

@enhydra lutris
I was a big supporter for a time, when I was doing coding for the gnome project (before and after gnome1.0, how long ago was that???). Anyway, I learned about EFF and Internet Archive, and Project Gutenberg too, then. Love those resources!

I'm trying to clean out my 'craft room'. It is not easy! I run across something I was doing 15 years ago, think, 'yea, I'll finish that' and ... no cleaning is done!

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2 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

TheOtherMaven's picture

@Sima
I remember him from when he was an eager-beaver sci-fi fan just getting to BNF (Big Name Fan) status. He looked a lot like a younger Harlan Ellison back then, and was the butt of a number of jokes about it.

I don't even want to think how long ago that was! Biggrin

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

mimi's picture

@TheOtherMaven ...I guess.

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mimi's picture

on a minuscule personal scale and at my former employers, when archives were still in papaer or tape format in some steel cabinets or on shelves in the basement. I learned that those 'writers and journalists', who you still can see on German Public TV today sometimes, that they never forget on which shelf in the basement they had put their essays and tapes 15 yeaars ago.

So, I say, "Prost" to all the archives you can dig in. I prefer paper archives, and can't stand digital ones. I always think they are too easy manipulated and 'disappeared'.

Be well out there. Survive. Eat as best as you can. Bye.

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Sima's picture

@mimi
But digital needs protecting as well. I keep wondering, where am I going to send my library of paper books when it's 'time'? Maybe I'll just have them compost them with my remains!

Be well! I hope your day was a good one and thanks so much for stopping by and commenting!

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3 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Voracious reader. Use the site good reads to carouse genre and descriptions. Then order
thru the state library system (if they have it). Delivered to town - no charge. Takes the place of
tele tubing.

thanks for the OT!

remember this one?

edited to change song

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Sima's picture

@QMS
And I used to use Interlibrary Loan a lot. Haven't had to recently. Before Covid I used the library request system a lot, but it changed during covid, they got a more monetized system. It's confusing now and bothers me. I should try and master it, I guess!

I've two stacks of books, about 10 books tall each, to read by my beside. As soon as one of the stacks gets down to around two or three books, I order some more! So yea, dead tree books work too!

And yes, I remember that song. And still like it! Thanks for the video, it's replay list now Smile

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3 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so