Open Thread - Thurs 19 Jan 2023 - Wile. E. Coyote? Genius?
Wile E. Coyote? Genius? Probably!
The following little farm happening relates in a few ways to how I've been feeling about politics lately. What's the point of doing what the 'experts' suggest when it often doesn't work? But what else can we do when the consequences of not doing anything are so dire? (see story below) Let us know your ideas and thoughts!
It's been sort of a crappy week in some ways. Over the weekend a coyote (or two or three, but it seemed like one) climbed the five foot fence around our inner goat paddock and killed a goat. Now, we've had a couple of coyote attacks on the goats before (and several cougar attacks, shiver), but never as brazen, as close to our house, and as contrary to what the experts recommend will work to keep the coyotes away.
What I mean by that is that the local wildlife experts recommend closing your livestock in at night, into an inner paddock or corral, as basically the last resort before killing the coyote. And, you aren't supposed to kill the predator, you are supposed to collect 'evidence' for the experts to look at when they have time to stop by, and then the experts will kill (or relocate) the predator. At least, that's what we were told when a cougar chased a goat into our inner paddock, tore it apart there, ate some of it and then ran away when the humans (us farmers) stormed out in alarm. The wildlife people couldn't stop by for a week they told us, so could we keep the 'evidence' in place until then? Umm, the body is in the inner paddock, completely torn apart, the innards are everywhere, there's blood spread across a square 10 ft on a side, and it's all right where the goats eat! It's about 50-75 ft from the house, max. No, we can't leave the evidence for a week!
I hate the idea of killing the predators, anyway. We don't have a gun, I can't even use one. My husband can, he's an ex-army sharpshooter and was once a hunter. But we don't have a gun. So, the goats are now locked in a very crowded small shed/barn and enclosure at night that's even closer to the house. The closer area is where we have the goats give birth and raise their kids. No pregnant goats this year, thank the gods! The coyotes will have to jump two fences to get to them. If necessary we can lock the goats into the shed(s). We might buy some predator deterrent LED lights, although reading the reviews, those only work for a short while and then they have to be moved every couple days or so. On the other hand, is that any different than going out to check on the animals from 10 pm to 6 am every two hours, which is what I'm doing now? Heh.
I want to make it clear, I'm not blaming the weird and overburdened way wildlife specialists, wildlife 'control' people, have to work. They have to do what they do because there simply aren't enough of them. And that's the governments', local, regional and federal, fault.
Any tips, hints, ideas about ways to achieve predator control? Or at least discourage coyotes? I'm thinking to put some scented deterrents out, like vinegar, bleach, orange peels, pee (heh, I know, but it can work), human hair... Might try putting up something across the top of the fence to stop them climbing over it. We'll probably be putting taller doors on all the goat lean-tos, the bigger barn, etc, to really close the goats in. Of course, the ultimate predator deterrent is a good guardian dog, like Jaska used to be. She's too old now, but once, she would chase off coyotes with determination, grace, and something almost like joy. Eventually we'll have a new puppy to do this job! Which is sad, and hard, to say right now, gotta admit.
And, tell us if this story makes you think about politics/news in any way. Or anything you are thinking about!
For Fun: Something to Tap your Feet or Dance Around To
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beuRgIqxTnY]
Lila Downs, Zapata Se Queda. The images in this video are awesome. The dancing leopard, and the older women dancing (one is Totó la Momposina), the older men (like Celso Piña), the young people, the parades. The music is great too, and here's the lyrics, in English and Spanish .
So, thanks for reading and here's the open thread - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!
Comments
Hola Amigos!
Today is another day full of financial stuff so I'm not going to be around much. I did want to note that this week is my one year anniversary of doing the Thursday Open Thread for Caucus99%. I'm so honored to be doing this, thank you for all your reading, listening, participation, comments, and teaching!
Post whatever you are thinking about below. And if you got any Wile E. Coyote stories, let's hear them!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Thanks for all that you've done for C99 on your
one year anniversary. I wish I had a silver bullet for
ending the coyote's hunger for your Goats, but sadly I don't.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/10ffhk5/til_bizarre_claim...
but be careful out there, "bizarre claims" are now a thing
so if it wasn't a yote or the WEF, I doubt it was a Yeti.
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
Hmm, maybe it was the WEF...
Killing a goat to make it so I have to buy more of their food, or fertilizer (I bet WEF makes a LOT of 'fertilizer') or something
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning from New York
https://misc.pagesuite.com/a309eb2e-715e-4bc9-8cba-c28ee4d1064e/images/1...
This cartoon tells the story.
If anybody is interested in this topic I posted more about it on last nights News and Blues.
NYCVG
Great comic!
Made me laugh! Thanks for the link to it!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
As to your story, my first thought is...
guard dog(s).
Using Livestock Guardian Dogs to Protect Your Goats (15 min)
We rely heavily on livestock guardian dogs to protect our dairy goat herd in the Siskiyou National Forest. This tutorial covers what a livestock guardian dog is (and how they differ from pet and herding dogs), common breeds, how they protect against predators and dispel common myths. This tutorial is based on our experience working with 10 different guardian dogs since starting with dairy goats—your experience and opinions may be different.
We recommend Storey's book to anyone interested in getting started with Livestock Guardian Dogs
Livestock Guardians: Using Dogs, Donkeys, and Llamas to Protect Your Herd (Storey's Working Animals)
This one is cute... (4 min)
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLBBTZcXwX4]
Sorry about your loss!
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
We've thought about livestock guardian dog(s)...
Jaska, and Reyna before her, did that work for a long time. Jaska's just too old now. So, probably gonna haveta get a puppy soon.
We could tell what kind of predator was close by the way Jaska and Reyna acted. If it was a coyote, they'd be all after it, running out into the fields, barking, etc. If it was a cougar, they were silent, careful and never got very close. And bear? Same way as with a cougar.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
No coyote
but plenty foxes
leaving ‘calling cards’ behind
Had a Pyrenees/Great Dane mix(168lbs)
that would lay in the ‘green’ with the birds,rabbits, and assorted wandering all over him
until the Geese tried to ‘eat’ him
After that he’d avoid the geese if he could
or growl like hell at them if they came close
Never harmed any though
RIP Otis
We miss you
Best wishes for Jaska
Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .
Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .
If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march
Otis sounds like he was wonderful...
I've pictures of Jaska with baby goats standing on her. And the chickens all around her. Heh, I bet that's what Otis was like! Wonderful!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I am running late,
have a quick thought about the predator.
Get a donkey.
So sorry for your loss, Sima.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Donkey...
See I knew this had parallels in politics! I wonder if I could convince my Democrat congressman to come on out and take on the coyotes! I could pretend they were elephants!
Hah, actually, a donkey isn't a bad idea. I think if we were younger, we might go that route. I'm gonna ask around and see if any friends have a donkey we could 'rent' (foster) for a bit!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I thought of donkeys too.
https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/guard-donkey-...
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
Good translation resource
@sima ...at lyricstranslate.com. Thanks Sima!
I find song lyrics in few words more or less can give greater insight into a cultural perspective or historical movement than long winded presentations in texts. Sometimes the lyrics just move the listener to another time and place. The lyrics are great segue into historical study. I'm also fond of Asia Pacific Journal/Japan Focus which is not limited to just Japan.
https://apjjf.org/
I'm going to be able to use the Japanese lyrics section to get some great insights. I read the lyrics for the Showa Restoration (Japanese military songs). Then went to the linked youtube video. The comments section displayed how some listeners are enthralled with martial music and Japanese militarist nationalism today. The song manifests the social discontent with the leadership of "failed democracy" and the related descent into fascist imperialism.
I'm sure I'll be using this resource again. Thanks Sima. (hope I have time to explore this)
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/shwa-showa.html
語必忠信 行必正直
You are very welcome!
I hope the lyrics translation site is very useful for you and you can find time to dive down into it. There are a few other translation sites I've used from time to time, but that one is the best, I think. Enjoy the translation learning!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning Sima. Sorry about your goat and the
resultant changes in your life. I have heard that llamas are kick-ass (kick-coyote) herd defenders and mix well with goats, but I don't know the feasibility of procuring one on short notice and incorporating it into ones herd and life.
I had an experience in the desert that verifies that human urine serves as an invisible coyote barrier, but I can't say if repeated usage of this prophylactic on a repeated basis would remain effective. We were camped at the edge of a wash in an area more or less walled off by wait-a-minute bush. Our cats had rolled in a dust pit used by a local coyote for that purpose and it subsequently wound up approaching our camp to get even. I distributed some urine across the entrance through the brush barrier and other access areas to our camp and the coyote came up to but not across that line growling and barking, but never came further. Over a course of months, however, who can say if it would still work.
Good luck.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Llamas and Alpacas can work well
We had some alpacas for a while, they did work. But, they were so mean to visitors (spitting, spitting, spitting) and so dirty to the goat areas (standing in the water troughs constantly) that we eventually gave them back to the person who had given them to us. Still maybe we can find some that are nicer than those were...
As for urine, thanks for the eye witness testimony! Husband is going out and doing his 'business' from time to time along where the coyotes come by, so maybe it'll work for us too!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Disappointed with the video
Most of the music was okay if you like that sort of thing, but it nearly ruined everything by starting off with that 'whispering voices' motif I keep hearing and find actively gross, and most importantly, as for the "dancing leopard"....
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
I think Lila is..
whispering to Zapata's ghost as she wakes up, but dunno. I never even really noticed it until now. Yes, the leopard is a fake! But it dances well!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Already posted my
camelid pitch before, so I won't repeat it here. But that included the story of a herd of antelope kicking the *bejeezus* out of a coyote, and leaving him as a permanent tripod. That one kinda made me smile.
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
About 10 years ago...
Jaska chased a coyote into the neighbor's field. Which was full of big meat cattle. I was right after Jaska, backing her up in the chasing, so I witnessed the whole thing. Those cattle kinda acknowledged Jaska's efforts and then went after the 'yote. That poor bugger was sent flying about 15 or 20 feet into the air, repeatedly, by cattle battering it with their heads and horns. It was yelping and screaming and when it finally was thrown far enough away, it ran off in a panic. I saw it around the place every month or so after that for a year or two. It NEVER came into our pastures, NEVER came near Jaska and NEVER went near the cattle. So, it learned
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Hi all,
HI all, Hi Sima, Hope all are well!
Here in central Texas Llama and Donkey are the two sentrys often posted to protect sheep flocks from Coyote. They love their donkeys here.
We all have a .22 varmit gun though, and few hesitate to use. Coyote are the only thing keeping the feral pig population predated here, taking the youngins. Most shoot all coyote on sight here, for a couple hundred years it seems.
I just love hearing them almost every night when they get a pig. They go nuts, a whole pack at once, it is awesome. A call of the wild to me. But I don't have livestock.
shootin' stars and coyotes...
have a good one all!
P.S. Happy Aniversary!
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein
Hola Dysto; song dog of the desert, love that sound.
Lots of places in Anza Borrego to listen to and watch them, and even motels in Borrego Springs that have those forever back yards where they roam and sing.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
I, too, love the coyote song...
I really, really love it. I don't know why, I just do. So I like having them around, and we've got a closed in chicken coop, closed in feral cats at night, and now, closed in goats. Because I like having the coyotes around, but I don't want them eating my 'family'. The 'yotes do a good job keeping down the non-native rabbit populations, the vermin and so on. They are a needed part of the environment, just, I want them to leave my goaties alone!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
we hear the coyote group yelping here occasionally
always figured they were celebrating a kill or watching old TV re-runs
[video:https://youtu.be/zR_g2cHXzQQ]
happy anniversary!
We hear our local group yelping a lot..
In fact, they kind of go in a circle around the open fields around our place and our neighbors'. And they stop every quarter or eighth of a mile and have a yipping howl-fest. It's great. All the local dogs join in, if they can. And I don't know why, but I really like it
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I just have to include this bit
in honor of our several D.Jur. members. Don't shoot me!
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFI5_rjHAVM width:400 height:300]
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
That clip was awesome!
Perfect!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Song to the coyote...
I like to sing this one...
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JjTGSipQTA]
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
I've not heard this song before...
And it's now an immediate favorite; it rocks. THANK YOU. I think I'm gonna learn the words and sing it as I'm walking out to oversee the goats every night!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Thoughts on predators (warning a little graphic)
Sorry about the goat. The two hour checking while necessary sometimes, does drain one physically. I have had my turns this past year (owls, skunks and foxes) with the chickens. Hopefully you and Hubby are able to take shifts. Odd feeling to know what you care about is being hunted, predator possibly lurking about and it is up to you to provide protection.
Sure it was a coyote and not dogs? Your goats are small and would have expected a fast kill, not time to spread a wide area of blood. Hungry coyote would have eaten at the kill spot or possibly carried off. A little late in the year for young coyotes to be learning how to hunt. Multiple coyotes will tug on a carcass back and forth while eating. The bloodiest kill spots I have witnessed were related to dogs. Gut spread out all over is often the scavenger birds. I am not a good tracker and can't tell the difference between dogs and coyotes.
When talking to an experienced predator control expert from the state agriculture department they have always been able to ask the right questions to narrow on possible predator based on my descriptions or e-mailed photos (or sent by phone). They also often know if there has been an uptick in predator activity in the area and what types. My state's Wildlife Department has been worthless and Sheriff's department helpful for domestic dog problems, not wildlife.
In Oregon cougars have a hunting season and require a valid license to shoot in season. Coyotes, skunks and foxes are not regulated and may be killed anytime of the year without a hunting license. Predator birds are federally protected species and can not be harmed.
Using other livestock or protection dogs can be a long term solution. It takes time to find the right mix for each situation. Kept Australian Shepherds for years primarily as herding dogs and fortunately the older dogs did a great job of training the young ones of their responsibilities.
Quick temporary fixes I have used until permanent solutions are in place.
Portable Electric fence Charger or plug-in: String a single wire about 6 to 8 inches above top of current fence. Any animal crawling over the fence will receive a shock. Would not use a wide band since low visibility is preferable in this situation. If believe the predator is jumping, place another strand 12 to 14 inches higher. Note is a danger to domestic cats who like to climb and walk the fence top. So when I use this solution, my cats are not allowed out of the house for a few days.
Floppy fence (4 ft high chicken wire) added to existing fence. Take chicken wire, about 4 feet high, and secure to outside of existing fence a little above center of chicken wire with top unsecured. When a climbing animal reaches a certain height they unexpectedly free fall. You will notice a bend in the fence if climbing attempt was made, perhaps tracks for identification and not had a return after a fall. Discovered this successful method by accident.
Live traps are an option. Not sure what size for coyotes. Still need a way to get rid of it.
PVC solution looked interesting, but complicated.
Finances, elder care and making choices for others without their feedback - been there, done that. Some of the hardest times of my life. Sending you strength and compassion.
Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.
I'm positive it was a coyote...
Got the foot print evidence, the fur evidence and so on. The 10 ft square of blood was from when a cougar attacked and killed a goat, not a coyote. The goat killed by the coyote was not in such a huge kill area. It was only a couple of square feet at most.
The cougar that killed our goat in the inner paddock later massacred a whole goat herd (about 10 goats) a bit closer to town, also in an inner paddock. At that point the wildlife people came and captured it and moved it into a wilder area. After it was captured, there were no more cougar attacks. We knew it was a cougar because of the prints, because it killed another goat out in the field and stored the carcass in the usual cougar way and because a neighbor had seen it stalking our common fence line. She thought about shooting it, but knew it was illegal, so didn't do it.
We've had dogs attack things here, but not the goats. When I started farming, there were a couple of dogs at the then-neighbors who had no training or supervision at all, and just roamed through everyone's fields. They decided to attack my young dog, Reyna (Jaska's predecessor), coming after her and chasing her to my front porch. She threw herself against the door in a panic as they tried to tear her apart. I saw them, got a baseball bat and... I attacked them, chasing them (with Reyna helping) up the driveway and off my property. Reyna realized that we (me and her - this was before I was married) were a pack, and she protected me from them attacking me when I was bent over weeding in the field, by fighting them and chasing them until I could respond. After that, I heard that another neighbor had left out poison and poisoned the dogs after they attacked and killed that neighbor's farm dog. I dunno, not fair, but the owners would NOT control them.
Heh, well, there's some farm stories! I bet we both have tons. I really like your idea of using chicken wire atop the fence, I think that might work well here. We've got a solar panel that runs electric fencing. We use net fencing for our fields. The coyotes kinda break through it, eventually. They are so damned persistent! The inner paddock fence is made from graduated hog/cattle panels, so it has painful metal bits sticking out the top. And there was coyote fur stuck on the metal bits. But maybe if we put an electric wire along the top of the fence? Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for the good ideas and telling me your experiences; it helps a lot!
And thanks for sending the strength and compassion. They are much needed, it was a tough day for me today. THANK YOU!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so