Open Thread - 04-01-22 - Full Spectrum

It's 7:10 AM. I'm sitting at the desk staring out the window trying to prod the muse into something readable. It's funny how the muse works. Some of my best writing comes to me when I sit down an hour before the deadline and just let it flow. The stuff I ponder over and fidget with to perfection many times goes over like a lead balloon.

I seem pretty brain dead this morning. Probably because I've been doing brain dead things like gardening and landscaping all week. But there has been an idea rolling around my head like a boulder bouncing through a rock crusher. So here goes.

Full Spectrum Dominance - Are we there yet?

Sure does seem like it to me. Please consider this:

Suppose you are a propagandist. Would it not be optimum to control both sides of a narrative? Both sides of an issue, pro and con. That would be total control, full spectrum dominance if you will. Could it be possible that our realities are so controlled that the idea of oppositional perception is but a facade? In today's world who knows what is real, right? With all the gaslighting and lying is it any wonder that folks are confused? Is that not the tenet of Full Spectrum Dominance?

I think that if you look you can see it in many issues nowadays, it may be subtle as is all good propaganda. The yin and yang may be manipulated into a soup of disinformation and obfuscation. Think about how you form your opinions, what you read, what you see, what you think about. If one could control that input then one could formulate your reality.

The right/left dichotomy is a perfect example, IMHO.

OK, it's 8:00, I better publish this now. Thanks for traipsing through my muse challenged ramblings with me.

Oh yeah, here's a video:

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these guys have been around for a while. How the heck did I miss them until now?

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Lookout's picture

Thanks for the intro to "The Cactus Blossoms"

Just like the two political parties are two sides of the same coin, Faux news vs MSDNCIA news are flip sides of the same record....spouting the same pro-war, more for me, USA USA nonsense.

That's part of why this community is important. Most here have a good nose for the news and are kind to share their sources and insights. TPTB have a narrative we're supposed to swallow hook, line, and sinker, and they are good at pushing that narrative. Having other sources destroys that created false narrative designed to enrich to already rich, and promote violence against anyone who objects.

So thanks for the community and the OT. Happy gardening!

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout
but what if those sources and insights we use to destroy the created false narrative are part of the controlled narrative as well? Control both sides of an issue, any issue, and you control reality. Maybe life really is a software program.

That's part of why this community is important. Most here have a good nose for the news and are kind to share their sources and insights. TPTB have a narrative we're supposed to swallow hook, line, and sinker, and they are good at pushing that narrative. Having other sources destroys that created false narrative designed to enrich to already rich, and promote violence against anyone who objects.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

@JtC

....but what if those sources and insights we use to destroy the created false narrative are part of the controlled narrative as well?

Fun idea if you're high on acid. But it goes nowhere in reality.

I know there are links strewn about here, with "proof" of something or another. But that is not the nature of the real work done here. This is not a proving ground, although that may be done here. The real work product is largely internal and invisible.

Whether the participants are aware of it or not, their valuable output is in the form of real-time analysis — and not in the trotting out of factoids. And their analysis is done in real time, right on these pages. Yes, now and then, propaganda debris and mind viruses are planted here. I don't even bother to push back anymore, because they wither and die almost immediately. Sometimes new participants need to sort through misinformation they have been carrying. That's understandable.

The assumptions and beliefs that are bedrock here — evolved here. The new community wisdom that coalesces here regarding new topics — emerge from that bedrock. (Some aspects of Covid work in a speculative space, and they are an exception. Although the views held here on public health and the medical industry are original and firmly rooted in our bedrock philosophy.)

Your thought experiment did trigger one topic I do think about, which has never been resolved: It is the almost overnight manifestation of entities labelled "far Left" by the Corporate State Media. This was, indeed, a deliberate poison that was injected into the social mind in the US. The objective of this propaganda was to rapidly stigmatize progressive influence in the nation's politics. The 'Far Left' was generally portrayed as lurking in or connected to the Democratic Party. It worked great on the already-brain-dead mainstream audience. But there were serious unintended consequences.

There is a huge, silent, morally-aware 'Far Left' in the United States, who were triggered by this latest mis-labelling. An internalized bloc of resistance and suspicion began to light up. The organic 'Far Left' thinkers were appalled and repulsed at having groups of progressive dumb-clucks, who associated with the Democratic Party — referred to as the 'Left' or 'Far Left'. The dumb-clucks were seen as elements of 'controlled opposition'. For the propagandists, embedding misinformation would soon become much more difficult.

That's what I've been seeing.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
ggersh's picture

@Pluto's Republic

Your thought experiment did trigger one topic I do think about, which has never been resolved: It is the almost overnight manifestation of entities labelled "far Left" by the Corporate State Media. This was, indeed, a deliberate poison that was injected into the social mind in the US. The objective of this propaganda was to rapidly stigmatize progressive influence in the nation's politics. The 'Far Left' was generally portrayed as lurking in or connected to the Democratic Party. It worked great on the already-brain-dead mainstream audience. But there were serious unintended consequences.

There is a huge, silent, morally-aware 'Far Left' in the United States, who were triggered by this latest mis-labelling. An internalized bloc of resistance and suspicion began to light up. The organic 'Far Left' thinkers were appalled and repulsed at having groups of progressive dumb-clucks, who associated with the Democratic Party — referred to as the 'Left' or 'Far Left'. The dumb-clucks were seen as elements of 'controlled opposition'. For the propagandists, embedding misinformation would soon become much more difficult.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxGp1Ycm1So]

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I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

Pluto's Republic's picture

@ggersh

Caleb Maupin has a tremendous understanding of the re-labeling of political positions and imposter politics. People in our demographic — the gullible 'vote blue' crowd — simply don't pick up on it. They stopped thinking and they keep voting. And, things get worse.

Thanks for the link.

Maupin works at a think tank — The Center for Political Innovation.

This a genuine anti-imperialist organization and a training center for activist outreach. They have this statement posted on their web site:

CPI Recognition of LPR and DPR

By Center for Political Innovation

The Government and People of the Luhansk People’s Republic and Donetsk People’s Republic, The Center for Political Innovation and all its members congratulate you on your recognition of sovereignty and independence from Ukraine by the Russian Federation. We extend our fullest support for your struggle against oppression and occupation following the US-NATO supported Euromaidan of 2014. We continue to oppose the existence of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, an alliance formed to counter the influence and interests of the USSR, a country which has not existed since 1991. The Center for Political Innovation condemns the US government’s support and funding…

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
studentofearth's picture

the multitude of responses to its presence become available as a choice vs a reflex. The time and place to interact with the fenceline occasionally becomes an option, instead of always a confused surprise.

The muse went profound today.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

@studentofearth
there is no spoon fence. It is but a construct.

This seems apropos:

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lotlizard's picture

@JtC  
Good golly, Miss Molly, can it really be a whole half-a-century ago? Wheeeo!

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they think we believe their is one.
Fuck them.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp
everyday, more and more folks are awakening to that illusion, on both sides of the isle.

Oh, and may I add, with a cactus, sideways [with apologies to the Cactus Blossoms, who BTW are from Minnesota, thus my "yeppers" subject line].

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@JtC throw fits if you tell them both sides are the same side of the donor coin.
Yeppers.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

enhydra lutris's picture

sub-faction of each alleged party on each issue through the alleged parties overall and probably the idea of and some of the third parties all the way up to Nation States and global alliances. Both divide and conquer as well as confuse and confound. The best response is to be counter-predictive and aware.

1) We aren't a democracy. Our history and various studies have shown that the elites get almost everything they want while the hoi polloi, the vast majority of the populace, get almost nothing of what they want. Our "representatives" don't represent us, don't need to, don't benefit thereby and even admit it now and then.

2) Our government is illegitimate. A legitimate government governs with the consent of the governed, but not by gulling and lulling them into a delusion based ritual of voting and writing letters and such. If the true choices and the true facts are not presented to the public then those few and far between opportunities for public choice and input are specious. Beyond that, if the public choice or input is ignored, the putative consent is a charade. A so called "representative democracy" where the public is not presented with true facts and actual decisions and the "representatives" do not abide by public choice isn't remotely any kind of democracy at all.

3) Consensus is hard to obtain, but significant majorities could exist where there is a lack of propaganda designed to divide, separate and prevent agreement.

This applies to global politics as well. "At least we aren't autocracies like Russia and China"? Bets? Greatest prison population as a percent of populace by far. Shitloads of police of multiple levels and types whose word and whim is law. The fact that a court may rule, 5 years hence that the order was improper and that you should not have been beaten and incarcerated doesn't change the fact that you were and that we all know the penalties for non-compliance. The so called possee comitatus act is bullshit. We have been using the guard to fight our foreign wars and armed conflicts for years. When it is then used at home for law enforcement, that is a violation of possee comitatus in substance even if not in form.

Re-education camps? Most obviously the prisons, but thanks to the propaganda and police, the entire damn country is one big re-education camp. We have sekret police too. The press is mostly captured and free speech is subject to "reasonable restraints" (arbitrary and capricious). Midnight no-knock raids. They've made a mockery of "reasonable suspicion", let alone "probable cause", and don't really require either for anything and everything and we have sekret courts that permit sekret testimony from sekret witnesses.

So what do you do? Don't buy any of it, even though some small portion might be true. Affirmatively withhold consent as much, often and in as many ways as possible. Be counter-predictive. Be aware that it is all a fraud and mostly, literally nonsense in the logical/empirical sense of the word. When you look at a politician, visualize Pe're Ubu and Ubu Roi - that's all that they really are underneath the surface, that and Joseph Surface from Sheridan's "School for Scandal".

I could go on, but shouldn't

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

lotlizard's picture

https://stevesalaita.com/punishment-and-reward-in-the-corporate-university/

And:
Newsguard — an agency linked to the CIA, NATO, and the White House

https://dissidentvoice.org/2022/03/censorship-donbass-insider-in-the-cro...

 
And:
The Internet of Bodies — this is the future they want to build
— “they” being the World Economic Forum (Klaus Schwab), the Atlantic Council, the RAND Corporation, etc.
(only a 56 -second “teaser)

[video:https://youtu.be/qo2ehLgFfE4]

 
There was a detailed article about the “Internet of Bodies” in Forbes, a business magazine:

https://www.ecosia.org/search?q=forbes%20internet%20of%20bodies%20IoB

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https://thehill.com/news/administration/3256261-psaki-to-leave-white-hou...

White House press secretary Jen Psaki will leave her job for MSNBC this spring, two sources familiar with the deal told The Hill.

Psaki’s upcoming departure was first reported by Axios on Friday, with the sources confirming it to The Hill. Psaki will leave the White House for the network around May, according to Axios.

The news follows speculation over whether the press secretary was looking for a job at MSNBC or CNN and while Psaki has been out of the briefing room this week with COVID-19.

This pretty well sums it up.

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enhydra lutris's picture

@humphrey

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

More and more autocrats are simply hard censoring opposition. Don't steer the opposition. Simply eliminate them off any and all available media outlet or arrest them (display the letter Z in Germany). Or steal their money as happened in Canada. Or seize their web sites as in:

US seizes three dozen websites used for ‘Iranian disinformation’

As time and technology go on, the autocrats can make anybody totally, and I mean totally disappear. I still don't get the technical details on how the US government can seize those Iranian sites.

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JtC:

I joined your board a little less than two years ago. I came with an agenda -- a militant and unyielding hostility to certitude, especially with respect to the Mega News of the Hour, the edicts issued by established political authorities to deal with what was always labeled as a "novel" malady. It seemed to me that anybody claiming to know what would happen was totally full of shit, for the simple reason that "science" had not had an opportunity to study and experiment with the new phenomenon.

Two years later, this venue hosts a lively discussion of the ongoing study and experimentation by science of what is called Covid 19. Nothing is certain, even now.

Well, there are a lot of negative certainties -- some things are easy to spot lies, like Ivermectin is Horse Paste. I have no way of really knowing how well it works or if it works at all. All I have are accounts from conflicting sources. But it is easy to verify whether that shit is ONLY for animals. Yet that lie keeps being repeated by powerful institutions like NBC.

We have no way to know the truth. But lies are disprovable. I have read that in the final decade of the Soviet Union, average citizens had long since recognized State Run Media as purveyors of nothing but bullshit. So an underground culture formed and people sent mimeograph messages to each other that tried to reason backward from the official lies to guess what they were intended to conceal. This board has some affinity with that movement, but it is stationed on enemy territory -- cyberspace.

We will need to find our own version of the mimeograph machine sooner probably rather than later. But so long as we can post our thoughts and our versions of reality here, there is no reason to abandon the venue. But we should start to think through whether and how we want to continue communication. With luck, we will never have to use it.

Not much luck lately.
.
.

What turned me into a gadfly in cyberspace in 2020 was the philosophy behind what I called at the time Team Lockdown. It was quite simple -- science should be and is, Thank God, privileged over democracy. Just as in wartime, no country can put military strategy up for a democratic vote, so in a time of pandemic, public health policy must not be set by ignoramuses who abuse their right to vote by opposing The Science.

(Of course, as soon as you put the determiner, "the," in front of the world science, you left actual science far behind. But enough windmills to tilt at in one post.)

That rationale is horse shit, coming and going. It asserts on its face that Science is a Finished Product with only one answer to every question. But far, far more ominously, it also abolishes democracy in one fell swoop. It is not exactly news that 50% of the population is below average intelligence. And, with racism, superstition and an infinity of mental aberrations running rampant through the brains of homo sapiens, democracy can produce utterly despicable results. A good enough example for this concept is the original draft of the American Constitution allowed for slavery and called slaves three fifths of a human being.

The Enlightenment was the impetus for our experiment in democracy. Religion had defined reality for centuries, impervious to the "experimental data" found in the lens of Gallileo's telescope. Eventually the gap between Official Truth and Objective Reality became unbridgeable. Yeah, if you allow the general public the "right" to speak out, it becomes impossible for the Official Truth to answer every question. This means that democracy prevents humanity from its best possible course through time.

From the Greeks through Winston Churchill, the response to this obvious Problem of Democracy is to admit that it sucks, but the alternatives are all even worse. Some small cadre of human beings, rather than a majority of human beings, will be tempted to use power for personal gain. This is elementary political "science" by the way.

I saw this primal political battle of the last several centuries decided by Talking Heads on televisions sets and computer screens. A new Priesthood appeared from the global health care bureaucracy and its "truth" suddenly grew teeth. Two years in: Mandates and passports. Forced relocation to carriers, suppression of other scientific opinions and assertions.

The totalitarianism was implicit in that "The" put in front of science. And, with this idiotic Trade War with Russia, we see the premise of Infallible Science now also applying to the question of War and Peace. Whoopi Goldberg demands jail for those who deny the story told about the troubles between Ukraine and Russia.

Here is the bottom line for civilization -- if you want your society to be run by experts, you ought to think through how one gets to be an expert, how you become a boss of other experts, and who pays the salary of those experts.

In the mean time, I agree with gripey old Winnie, "Democracy is the worst form of government on earth. Except for all the others."

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I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

Pluto's Republic's picture

@fire with fire

" ...democracy prevents humanity from its best possible course through time."

Very astute observation.

You want to see a real people's democracy in action with leading experts at the helm, you should check out how the Chinese central government works.

Why democracy works in China?

Understanding China

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

@Pluto's Republic
.

I want to thank you for joining issue with me on this question. Before offering my response explaining why I disagree with you, it seems to me at this bizarre moment in time, all of us should take the effort to re-examine all our core beliefs, opinions and political philosophy. I welcome the implicit challenge to defend my own lifetime of organizing and representing working people – most of whom without advanced education or what folks on this board refer to as “critical thinking skills.” I admit to being very set in my ways and I regard that as a weakness. Maybe I have been on the wrong track all along.

.

My disagreement with you is on the subject of expertise. I do not trust it. Any given expert may be very intelligent and as honest as Abe Lincoln, but there is no guarantee of that. There is a vested interest in every expert to feather their own nest. The protocols of science are overtly designed to prevent that selfish potential from affecting the actual social or governmental response to questions like what to do about Covid or Putin? How’s that working out right about now?

I assert that our current government and health care establishments are corrupt and those integrity protocols have failed. The reigning “experts” have already destroyed the lives we all led just two years ago. It is possible that there was never any good way to stop Covid 19 from making people sick or dying. It is also possible that some other strategy might have worked better. But there can be no disputing this reality – the pandemic is still making people sick and many of them are dying at a far more onerous rate than during the first six months of the pandemic. That would not upset me so much if those experts had ever been honest about the situation.

I give the experts a grade of F for their performance in fighting Covid. But there is no letter to describe their effort to shut up disagreement with their policy in the face of their utter failure to curb – let alone stop – the spread of Covid 19 in all its variation. This claim to holding a monopoly on truth tells the entire story as far as I am concerned. These “experts” in charge now are totalitarian assholes who belong in prison.

Regarding the “experts” in “national security,” as if on cue they immediately grabbed on to this newly established power to Silence Opposition. Corruption squared – all based on the idea that democracy enables stupid people to get in the way of Correct Policy.

How convenient for the Biden Administration.
.

I have not yet read your links to articles about how China functions. I will look at them soon and comment as it seems appropriate.

I am ready to reconsider my hostility to the social order in China. Their culture is far older and wiser than my white bread ancestors’ Cult of Selfishness -- that is threatening to blow up the whole fucking world over who gets to make the most money from exploiting what is left of the world’s resources.

I am also ready to re-examine my deep seeded prejudice against bosses and the idea of social obedience. As usual, the Woke Liberal take will be to call me a bunch of names for being selfish. Also as usual, they will also assume that whoever is in control will not abuse their power and I am a psychopath for noticing how corrupt bosses can be and usually really are.
.

I am also ready to consider how the Chinese have dealt with this primary question of political science – Who decides who gets to decide things?

Obviously, Plato had a point about how the Head Honker ought to be the most sagacious cat around. That of course tells us nothing about who gets to be Head Honker.

The Enlightenment – which I am not ready to disown, yet – was a response to the self-perpetuating priesthood that had held the power of Truth in its clutches for centuries.
.
My question – how can any social order be sure that Experts are really experts and not thieves?
Or could ever become a self-perpetuating caste of thieves, skimming the take of the world?

It ain't like it has never happened before?

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I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

Pluto's Republic's picture

@fire with fire

...on the state of the leadership in health and science in the US, and the overall corruption in all systems of government. I don't think there was anything you wrote that I disagreed with. In the West, we don't have a yardstick or criteria to judge our governments with. But measuring our government with the same yardstick that the Chinese people measure their own government with — (They ask: Did the people's happiness and economic well-being improve significantly over the past five years?) — our governments would score an "F" with them, for the past half-century, at least.

Your views on expertise (in Western governments) exactly mirror my own. Experts are corrupted by money in politics, and this is not governed by laws or regulations. Thus, corruption at the highest levels is endemic throughout most Western governments.

...all of us should take the effort to re-examine all our core beliefs, opinions and political philosophy.

Indeed. In recent years, I began looking at where my information came from: Which books, which authors, which articles, which publications. When looking at geopolitics and international affairs, I realized I was relying on mostly American sources to understand foreign nations. I made a great effort to strip those influences out of my knowledge base and educate myself from academic and global sources and from the horses mouth — the people, themselves.

I don't really have a position on expertise in politics. I merely point out that China does have a position. It's a challenge that China solved more than 1,000 years ago, and perfected the solution into a system they use for selecting candidates for government service up to the present day. It certainly seems to serve them well. If you are interested, you can read about it here:

Understanding China’s University System
How Does China Evaluate and Choose its Leaders? Understanding China’s University System

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I can't imagine such a system in the US. It goes against every philosophical notion held by common citizens. They believe that any bozo can grow up and become President — and looking at the elected participants at the Federal government — I must conclude that they are absolutely correct. This, to them, is what Democracy looks like. Utopians, they are not.

China, by the way, has a strong democracy. The Chinese vote in several different elections every year. And every Chinese person is invited to participate in the Central government when it is in session, and receive a direct response. Hundreds of suggestions and proposals from thousands of ordinary citizens are incorporated into every Five Year Plan that is developed by the Central Government through participatory Democracy.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
mimi's picture

on this side of the Atlantic (Europe) and then of the freaks oj your side of the Atlantic. They try hard to win the game in the sport of "who is controlling me better, your side of my side". Of course mimi's side is winning every game. They are fools no atter what. /s

Just a good eveing to all from here.

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Conspiracy (Gary Allen, 1971)

None Dare L:R Continuum.jpg

“If you have total government it makes little difference whether you call it Communism, Fascism, Socialism, Caesarism or Pharaohism. It's all pretty much the same from the standpoint of the people who must live and suffer under it.”
― Gary Allen, None Dare Call It Conspiracy

“If you wanted to control the nation's manufacturing, commerce, finance, transportation and natural resources, you would need only to control the apex, the power pinnacle, of an all-powerful SOCIALIST government. Then you would have a monopoly and could squeeze out all your competitors. If you wanted a national monopoly, you must control a national socialist government. If you want a worldwide monopoly, you must control a world socialist government. That is what the game is all about. "Communism" is not a movement of the downtrodden masses but is a movement created, manipulated and used by power-seeking billionaires in order to gain control over the world ...”
― Gary Allen, None Dare Call It Conspiracy

“But the struggles make you stronger and the changes make you wise... And happiness has its own way of taking its sweet time.”
― Gary Allen

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