Administrative reminder to take it easy on each other
Submitted by joe shikspack on Thu, 07/15/2021 - 7:46pm
This site has a broad range of people with a broad range of opinions. That's one of the things that makes it interesting.
This kind of site can only remain viable if people recognize that other's opinions will vary from their own and respect the person while they are politely disagreeing with their opinion.
I got a call from JtC today who was feeling a little like the guy driving the family station wagon on a vacation across Texas in the summer with a bunch of noisy, squabbling kids in the back.
Don't make him stop this car.
Please.
Comments
Are we there yet?
Somebody had to say it.
After returning my inner 4-year-old to the cage (with stuffed Skunkie!), I'll say this (reiterating the post):
We seem to have forgotten how to disagree with each other rationally, without being personally offensive, and also without being personally offended. So please try to keep in mind that, when you disagree with somebody, that's no reason to treat them like bottom-feeding pond scum, but also the fact that their disagreement with you doesn't necessarily destroy your entire reason for being.
It's the Internet. People are wrong on the Internet all the time; there's usually no reason to think they're attacking you personally, just because they're misinformed.
Or even because you are.
Ease up!
And THANK YOU as always to Joe & JtC and all the mods for providing this space.
“We may not be able to change the system, but we can make the system irrelevant in our lives and in the lives of those around us.”—John Beckett
evening yellopig...
boy, i hope we get there soon, bobby says he has to pee.
LOL!
“We may not be able to change the system, but we can make the system irrelevant in our lives and in the lives of those around us.”—John Beckett
Here's how clueless I am
I was feeling "community proud" because this is what I though was going on:
This whole time. Not that I dwell in every thread.
I was thinking the other day that there's nothing in our civic life or culture that operates on the principle of consensus. Everything in our culture is oppositional and a fight to the finish. This does not produce a cohesive or coherent civilization. It's not Enlightened. It is a twist in our culture that has us working against ourselves. American Democracy has not been leading People to the best outcomes for themselves and their society. People feel they need to arm themselves with guns to survive.
So, I am not surprised that online discourse defaults to disagreements. I believe this is by design.
Plato was right: "Democracy is the worst form of government since no measures that guarantee that a rightfully elected leader has the virtues that articulate best interests of the masses." Furthermore, Plato believed there was a far more sinister nature to democracy. A calamity at the very heart of democracy, it would lead only to tyranny and subjugation. He complained that Democracies were too eager to kill people to prop themselves up.
/rant
evening pluto...
i think that it is mostly what goes on here. i don't read every article and every thread, but for the most part what i do read falls in the "community that you can be proud of category."
we seem to have hit a speed bump on one contentious topic, hence this reminder.
yeah, our culture seems to have largely pitched consensus for the cult of the rugged individual.
heh, democracy has always been given a bad rap by elites, who feel threatened by it. perhaps there just isn't any good way to organize a population as large as we find ourselves with.
This was true at the beginning of the industrial revolution
The elites in Europe — and a bit later in the US — were horrified by the idea that serfs would have a vote. They could vote themselves social security, god forbid.
But then the petits bourgeois emerged to save the day. They ran interference between the serfs and the Elite — between labor and capital. The early petits bourgeois were the shopkeepers and merchants, lawyers and accountants — enterprising individuals who ultimately served the needs of the Elite, protecting them. And were rewarded for doing so.
In the US today, politicians play the role of the petits bourgeois. They, too, are rewarded for the services they render for the Elite — while holding the people at bay with the antics of the gamed party Duopoly. Always dangling the same elusive bait during the election kabuki to distract the masses from the capitalist exploitation of their taxes. The people think they are part of the system, the masters of their fate. They will continue to vote for the rest of their lives, while blight and hunger slowly spreads across the land.
At least, that's my narrative of the system on display.
That's my analysis as well
and the reason that I am withdrawing from the on the ground political action that I have been involved in for decades.
NYC has always had corruption issues but now the ownership of the process by the political establishment/corporate interests is 99% complete. This past election has perfected ballot theft and we are unlikely to see the choice of the people affect much of anything in the years to come.
(This is not another amorphous doom prediction from a pundit behind a screen. Which to me has become as boring as the old cartoons where a raggedy man carries a sign saying "The end is nigh.")
I was on the ground, and behind the scene, for every step of the NYC election debacle, some of which I reported on here. Nothing I said was forceful enough to fully inform readers of how complete the capture has been.
Or even grab much attention. Ho-hum, we know all that, seemed to be the response. Apparently, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. Indeed!
NYCVG
I followed your reporting with great interest.
It was a fascinating election in its own right. The only Democratic Party people I know well are in New York. I learned a lot from them. But they are completely different from all other Democrats. From the very beginning in 2016, they were completely dismissive of Sanders and waved him off immediately. Never paid attention to the dynamic around him. Not a bit of curiosity. To them, Sanders was a non entity. This time, they regarded Yang the same way. Never acknowledged that he was in the race.
I thought your reporting was great, by the way. I could feel the hope and anticipation by reading your words and yet, your eyes were wide open, paying attention to details that really gave context to the New York political machine-in-action. To me, New York is ground zero of the political fix, the heart of the the media, and the crossroad of the power-players and most formidable lobbies. It would have never occurred to me to actually vote, if I lived there. Some of us are obligated to get close and bear witness, if nothing else. That you did.
NYC politics has been corrupt since the days of Tammany Hall
and those days date back to shortly after the Revolution. Aaron Burr sometimes gets the credit/blame for starting that whole ball rolling with the "Sons of St. Tammany" organization, which gave him his political base until he overreached himself. And things never got any better until Fiorello LaGuardia wrestled the organization to a standstill in the 1930s - but as soon as he retired, the corruption came roaring back under new names and with new faces. So here we are now....
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
I am overcome
by this comment, Pluto. Thank you so much.
And for you and the others who were interested in the nuts and bolts of this disaster, a few final notes:
The Queens Borough President race has still not been called. Elizabeth Crowley has refused to yield to the Queens Machine that is backing Donovan Richards. IDK if she will succeed in getting a hand recount.
The Triumph of the Will has otherwise been completed.
Governor Andrew Cuomo and next Mayor Eric Adams appeared together to declare that they are the New Progressive Face of New York. Adams a former (R) and 30 year vet of the Police Force and Cuomo the most corrupt politician, ever. Bullies, lords and general POS.
The hillbots and friends have wiped out all the gains made by Cynthia Nixon, AOC and the NY State Senate when we ousted the IDC.
In memoriam of the good times gone by I am posing an Instagram from a Cynthia Nixon rally in 2017. The young woman with the dark hair in an upsweep is my daughter, who I dragged to this event,facing her and barely visible except for my shades and blue Cynthia hat, is me.
Back with foto in a second.
NYCVG
I have been meaning to thank you for your political
reporting from New York. My dad and his whole family, Italian immigrants, were from there. We have been to downtown many times and lengthy stays on LI.
So it feels close to home, while not understanding NY politics at all. At tomes something from NY state would be of interest but mostly that was it.
I feel like Yang got the Bernie treatment. I know you will correct me if that is wrong.
Your comments are insightful and thoughtful.
A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.
Consider helping by donating using the button in the upper left hand corner. Thank you.
Yang got the Bernie treatment.
Exactly.
CORRECT.
Yang also supported and voted for Cynthia in the Governors race and Bernie in his Primaries in both 2016 and 2020.
Yang's top advisors told me privately that they were Bernie supporters and worked on his campaigns previously.
The NYC Media did not want these facts to become public.
And the FORMERLY powerful NYC Progressive movement ignored the truth and lined up against Andrew Yang.
Which tells me all I need to know to come to the conclusions listed above. The formerly impressive Progressive Party of NYC is dead and gone.
NYCVG
To many beliefs at odds
I agree on the part organizing or gaining consensus of a huge and incredibly diverse population is not working very well as it stands now. There are two many regional, economic, age related, and ethnic cultures with needs and ideas that seem at odds with each other. I live in an area where there is almost no one who agrees with me. The government here is heavily conservative. Oddly for being that way their budget bends strongly toward giving the average tax payer a good value for the taxes they pay. I would say if most of my neighbors were to hear the list of county projects and services they are benefitting from listed for somewhere else they would be stroking out over !!socialist!! But they are just fine with their county following the Bernie Sanders school of government here and so am I. We agree on one thing! But I find by respecting their opinions they respect mine too. When one of their opinions really ticks me off I ask myself why I am annoyed. It helps me clarify my own beliefs. I am a believer in cyclical history and in that system we are in the group fear stage. This cycle generally ends with a war that brings people together. The revolution, the civil war and world war 2 are examples.
edited - hard to believe for me
A war brings people together? Well, YMMV. I agree with being in the fear stage, I foresee warfare and chaos, still waiting though to believe it brings people together.
But I never understand anything correctly. So forget about it.
Edit: this my typical misunderstanding due to my lack of proper English skills. I guess you meant to say that each side of those, who participate in the war, come together as a group on one side, and then fighting the group on the other side. Sorry for being slow in proper understanding.
https://www.euronews.com/live
Been there
evening gj...
heh. good one!
have a great weekend!
Perfect!
... except we aren't lemmings, because we all go in different directions ; ).
I tried to understand what a lemming is
neither found a German translation for it, nor did the images of the animal called lemming help me either.
So, a lemming is an animal that is like the sheep always walking in the same direction like all other sheep? Evem if they are lead to drown running over a cliff?
Sigh, I guess I join the McLemmings and kill myself. What is the good use of being a lemming? There must be at least one good use to be a lemming. God just doesn't allow anything just be either or. It's always both.
manno, life is too complicated.
https://www.euronews.com/live
I hope and I trust,
that we can continue to exist as a cooperative community and source of interest. It doesn’t have to be so hard. These are especially difficult times that can only improve with consideration for the fact that it is a challenging time, and respect for each other.
Thank you joe and JtC, and all others for your contributions.
evening janis...
i hope so too. i think most of us want that, even the people who have had difficulty lately with the respect and politeness thing.
I think so too
We are a steadfast and strong bunch.
But, but, but
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
heh...
thanks el, i was thinking about that cartoon this afternoon and couldn't dig it up.
er, I could be wrong…
Make a note! This may be the first time the Internet had to relay this comment!
“We may not be able to change the system, but we can make the system irrelevant in our lives and in the lives of those around us.”—John Beckett
you, el,
can be a master of the absurd ; ).
Thanks.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
what will this poor guy do when nobody is calling him
anymore to come to bed?
In other news, yes, we had floods in Germany nobody had really seen before, even not the older ones. I was reminded of images from Kathrina, but it looked worse, because the water wasn't rising calmly, it was gushing through the streets and destroyed everything people had build in their lives. And Angie Baby (that is our tired Chancellor Merkel) had the bad luck to be distracted to make useless small talk with the old Uncle Biden, who definitely should go into an assisted living facility (oh my, I forgot, he might be in one already).
Hey guys and gals, that too shall pass, and the huge thanks I have for JtC and Joe Shikspack, will never end. And don't forget that the more polite the 'Amies' (= Americans) are, the less the Germans tend to believe and trust them/you. So my wish would be, just be less polite and more verbally rude, so that we Germanic folks can trust the Uncles again.
Sigh, apologies to those, whose sensitivities felt rattled. I am a good girl, really.
https://www.euronews.com/live
hi mimi, I assume he'll just keep staring at his monitor.
Sorry to hear about all the flooding. Hope you and yours didn't experience too much trouble.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
judge for yourself if you are interested
Germany under water
https://www.euronews.com/live
Looks pretty bad, Mimi.
It was bad and unprecedented
little streams' usual height of water levels rose from 80 cm to 8 meters within half an hour and turned into gushing destructive rivers/waterfalls/or whatever you may call it. The water took everything with it. Houses, bridges, and left just destruction behind. The thing that nobody experienced before was the speed with which water level went from less than a yard up to 8 to ten yards within half an hour.
https://www.euronews.com/live
OK ...
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sieg538458s width:500 height:300]
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.
okiedokie...
perhaps peeps go off from time to time
Have myself on occasion when I forget the rules
it is not uncommon with our posters
esaway it is
in my mind it matters less what potpourri spews forth
as much as the community decides to support
vague ideas and other expressions
this is what is key to this site
if you happen to get torqued on some issue
try not to blame the mind of a different post
question everything
Welp, it seems any forum can have contention.
Mr. Meta has bee studying classical music since the lockdown. He found a forum called 'Talk Classical'. The discussions can range over days with highly intense interactions. They have strict rules of engagement and bannings occur on a regular basis. It goes to show passion can overtake the most even-keeled posters.
Let us try to carry on with the best information and range of topics we can muster. Above all patience and kindness for those looking at the landscape and trying to discern what is real and what isn't.
A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.
Consider helping by donating using the button in the upper left hand corner. Thank you.
Well said Dawn
Who knew classical music could be contentious?
question everything
Unbelievable arguments even in resurrected
threads long quiet, I mean for years.
Here's one that will get your dander up: thirty pages long (46 pages now), each page up to fifteen posts. Mods came in.
David Hurwitz YouTube channel, is a guy who loves classical music and started podcasting once daily at the first lockdown. He's gotten more savvy as time and practice have moved along. He is outspoken and willing to just say what he feels about a conductor, composer, orchestra or whatever. This leads members of Talk Classical to have debates about his position or state du jour. So this lengthy thread is what people think about him as a critic. Being evaluated by critics pro and amateur.
At some point there was an intense discussion about Wilhelm Furtwãngler and his association or not with Nazis. There was analysis of a film which showed a flag and lots of discussion of what the flag represented. Hitler's 53rd birthday in Berlin the conductor did the Beethoven's Ninth. This lead to unbelievable back and forth.
Contentious classical music discussion
Lord love a duck.
A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.
Consider helping by donating using the button in the upper left hand corner. Thank you.
some passions are un-mutable
stuck in the craw as it were
good luck sorting it out
chafe from the wheat
question everything
Just found this thread rather late but........
Do not want JtC and Joe to decide this time has come for this to end. This is one of my balance beams in my life but that is me.
I was trained as an adult mediator in the student / student mediation. Our role was to listen and step in ONLY when there was danger sensed not when we disagreed with what they agreed on. This was a powerful learning experience!
A couple of phrases still are with me............I hear what you are saying, I agree to disagree...... and I acknowledge your point of view. Some of them stop a disagreement in its tracks and helped me in ,many a situation. Like many of you have suggested, let’s work through this and keep this site alive!
Thank Joe and JtC for what you continue to do.
Life is what you make it, so make it something worthwhile.
This ain't no dress rehearsal!
ditto
What jakkalbessie said.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981