Constitutional Crisis, Part Deux

From Politico, August 25, 2020

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Hillary Clinton to Biden: Don't concede if the election is close

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"Joe Biden should not concede under any circumstances because I think this is going to drag out,"

Hillary Clinton is predicting Donald Trump's reelection effort will be a messy affair, and the former Democratic candidate has some advice for Joe Biden: If the race is close, don't concede.

This is a call for refusing to abide by the vote tally. It implies a civil war. How much indignation and condemnation came her way when she added this cheery thought to the national discourse? When Donnie Shrimpfingers makes the same outrageous proclamation, the political world goes ape shit. Good ol' Bernie Sanders carries the water for Biden on this one:

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This is what an authoritarian sounds like.

Tomorrow, at 1 p.m. ET, I will be delivering an address on the unprecedented and dangerous moment we are in right now given President Trump’s unique threats to our democracy.

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Here you see the double standard in the Blue Half of our political culture in stark relief. A pox on both their houses as they look to be herding us all toward civil war on election night.

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snoopydawg's picture

Anyone who thinks rump is acting alone has their head in the sand. This is a real threat. This is Putin’s wet dream, to destroy the USA, and the rethuglicans are all in.

Darn that Putin fella. He has his finger in so many pies here doesn't he. How can he rule Russia when he is so busy destroying the USofA?

Why ask this question:

"Will you commit to a peaceful transfer of power if you lose?"

Here's Rising on this

McConnell has already stated that this election will follow how elections have gone since 1792. As have most republicans. Will they change their minds if Trump tells them to? I don't think so because the constitution is clear on this.

Anyone know if the early voting mail in ballots are being counted as they come in? I'd think they would be, but so much of this country is messed up who knows?

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

usefewersyllables's picture

@snoopydawg
but in many if not most states *no* votes are counted by law until after the polls close on election day. Colorado is one such state: early votes are noted as having been received in the SoS voter rolls, but the ballots themselves are held sealed in their envelopes until after 7pm on election day, at which time all votes (in-person, early, mail-in, dropped-off, and absentee) are counted all at the same time.

Here in CO the law is very clear; any and all ballots must be in the hands of election officials by 7pm on election day or they will not be counted. Ballots are sent out to all voters 3 weeks before election (starting October 9 this year). Even in the case that someone doesn't receive their ballot, they can still go and vote in person up to the 7pm deadline.

This makes it dead easy for people to understand: vote early, or vote on the day, but don't fuck around in such a way that your ballot fails to be in the hands of the county election officials by 7pm on election day. That is the way the law was written here: simple, concise, to-the-point.

Some states are doing unbelievably spastic things like accepting ballots postmarked by election day. Postmarked where exactly, maybe Kathmandu? This gets the post office involved in the last mile, and allows count and reporting of results to be delayed essentially forever: they could be "finding" ballots until the goddamned cows come home. There are too many opportunities for mischief there. States that are panicking and trying to figure out how to handle suddenly having 50% of their votes come in by mail are basically screwed, if they put together a patchwork of laws and plans and dates and mechanisms. It needs to be simple and understandable, which is why CO's system seems to work so well (until the SoS decides to sit on her party's primary results for a month or something, but I digress).

Opinion follows: there should be no counting of ballots before the polls close on election day, period. There also should be no counting of ballots after election day, either. They all go into one big pile, get counted, and then get retained under armed guard for when the inevitable audits, recounts, and lawsuits show up...

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

Unabashed Liberal's picture

@snoopydawg @snoopydawg

McConnell has already stated that this election will follow how elections have gone since 1792. As have most republicans. Will they change their minds if Trump tells them to? I don't think so because the constitution is clear on this.

He is an institutionalist and a constitutionalist.

Mr M and I listen to almost all the press conferences, and press availabilities. The WH press corp doesn't ask the question - Are you willing to transfer power, if you have no reason to believe that the election vote count is fraudulent? (Even Biden 'qualified' his answer, when asked if he would accept election results.)

IOW, neither candidate is likely to agree to concede the election if they believe that the results are not valid.

Mollie

"The leaders of this new movement are replacing traditional liberal beliefs about tolerance, free inquiry, and even racial harmony with ideas so toxic and unattractive that they eschew debate, moving straight to shaming, threats, and intimidation."
~~Matt Taibbi, The American Press Is Destroying Itself, June 12, 2020

"I know, I know. All passion; no street smarts."
~~Captain West, 1992 Rob Reiner/Aaron Sorkin Movie, A Few Good Men

“If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they went.”
~~Will Rogers, Actor & Social Commentator (1856-1950)

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

@Unabashed Liberal
Al Gore conceded too soon. An unofficial recount of Florida showed that he won, but too late. Nor should Trump, until a court or Congress in January whatever tell him "It's over dude." His words, reckless and inarticulate as they are, do not say he will refuse to transfer power if a Court rules or he has clearly lost the Electoral college as Dems would have us believe. But a Dem e-mail claimed that Biden should not concede if he has a majority of the popular vote! Treasonous.
It's down the bit bucket but it said IIRC, "If Donald Trump refuses to step down if a majority of Americans vote for Joe Biden..." NO NO NO California and New York do not hold supremacy over the other 48 states. That's not the system and never was.

And BTW, If Biden is going to be so triumphant, why are they so worried?

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We are so screwed.

TheOtherMaven's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness

The findings that Gore had actually won Florida were published on September 12, 2001. You know what happened the day before.

99% of the population never heard about the findings, because they were crowded off the front pages and out of the soundbites. What was on the front pages and in the soundbites was "War! War! War!"

By the way, there is no mechanism for undoing the results of a wrongly decided election. You can ask Not-President Samuel J. Tilden about that....

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

wendy davis's picture

@snoopydawg

Trump's supporters are the ones likely to create epic chaos, (steal ballots if he loses, or the vote counting is slow, sorts of insurrection).

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wendy davis's picture

@wendy davis

there was a squib up on msn.com concerning early in-person voting in some venues or other in Virginia. trump supporters were 'intimidating voters' outside the 100 ft limit, so some venues changed the entrances or something. armed or not? likely not?

but it did make me picture what mr. wd goes thru when he shops for us in the working class town west of us. a smallish group of (anglo) BLM supporters walk while rednecks in trucks with the requisite racks full of rifles parade main street. all of them have flags, many of them many flags (think of the expense, for one thing!), including: thin blue line, US (some with trump's face on them), confederate flags, the 'don't tread on me' one, all to great applause.

at least once they grew tired of their local Missions from Gawd, and drove to durango 50 mi to the east. they went to a small park at which a BLM rally was going on, and went up to harass the protestors while armed.

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@wendy davis

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We are so screwed.

wendy davis's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness

as well as your comments on breonna taylor's killing...triggered so much (seemingly irrational) anger in you. as RT.com grows more pro-trump fascist in the main, any black protesting becomes ipso facto, a BLM protestor. the original #BLM© three, funded by (some say) george soros are not representative of either further USian not global police state protests, its just that BLM is easy to put on a sign.

@ snoopy: might it be that different states have different rules, then? as with when votes are counted, counted when received or when post-marked, etc.?

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snoopydawg's picture

@wendy davis

away from voting places entrances. Centrists are upset about it, but then said it was CT that Bill Clinton went inside one during the election. He did.

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

@snoopydawg
We voted in the Primry around 11:00AM just before the lunch Rush. There is usually a morning rush too. No voters at all inside. Election judge told us we were voters 8 & 9. Not Dem voters. Voters. We voted right away (machine readable paper ballot, I never use the radio link voting machines that young people love)

Health Risk? Much less than grocery shopping.

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We are so screwed.

@snoopydawg Many aren't.

It's one of the things Bernie is urging the Senate and House to require.

New York State, at the behest of our RW Governor, Cuomo II, didn't start counting the June 23 Primary absentee ballot until sometime in July.

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NYCVG

@snoopydawg .

They talk around the thesis of this thread with a very plausible suggestion that the drift toward civil war is coming about accidentally, due to partisan fervor and the irresponsibility of Trump. No disagreement from me about either the partisan fervor or the jackass behavior of POTUS.

Their scary enough, but ultimately benign, take on this is that the hostility between the parties is real, getting out of hand and looks now to be heading for civil war. They do not even consider the possibility that all this apocalyptic rhetoric from Hillary and Trump is part of the fraudulent show of American politics.

Yeah, Donnie Shrimpfingers is one irresponsible dipshit -- especially when he says the same thing that Hillary does. And, the Democrats hold themselves out as reasonable and honest public servants while continuing to push the Russiagate Line -- a pack of lies even more irresponsible than threatening civil war. If true, the Russiagate Story leads to nuclear war.

From the first time I heard the Russiagate story, I thought, "How in the hell do they walk this shit back?" I found the answer after the Mueller Investigation fizzled out. They will never walk it back.

I stand by my grim assessment that all this vitriolic rhetoric is fraudulent and that the votes in Congress demonstrate the fundamental alliance of the two parties over every issue of real significance -- while appearing to be trying desperately to put each other in jail, yet always coming up short in the effort.

Why would the Donor Class want to risk civil war? Beats me. Why would the Donor Class want to destroy the economy? That still beats me as well six months into the nightmare, but it is happening as we speak.

It is hard to figure what is true. But the lies are getting ridiculously easy to spot.

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I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

@fire with fire
To snap up the assets at bargain price from bankruptcy courts as small businesses fail and delinquent homeowners are evicted.

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We are so screwed.

@The Voice In the Wilderness @The Voice In the Wilderness .

Although in this crazy world I am not about to deny that is happening, I do not believe that it was planned in advance.

Moreover I do not think that the "asset gobbling" explanation makes much sense for the wealthy assholes who will pick up houses, buildings and businesses at distressed prices because this is not 2008 or even 1929 -- this Depression is already the worst ever, and those "cheap" assets will continue to be worthless until there are customers with money in their pockets.

Once this Depression got started, all the lobbyists and related sharpies made sure that The Stimulus would not do anything to restore consumer spending. It did the opposite -- it delayed the eviction crisis for some number of months, making sure that there will be social dislocations from hell going deep into the next year, and probably for many, many years. Going forward, there is no plausible source of funds for any more bottom-up stimulus and all those distressed "assets" will remain distressed for years.

Some industries will never recover. You will be able to buy a shopping mall for about five cents on the original construction cost dollar. Airplanes will be available as the airlines shrink their fleets. You can probably buy a 737 Max for the cost of a medium sized Bentley next year. But what are you going to do with those White Elephants? The only way the asset theory, or any other explanation for why this shit is happening can make any sense at all is to posit that whoever did this dastardly deed is looking decades ahead.

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Of course I have to conclude this comment with saying, I don't know a damned thing for sure. Thanks for posting on the thread.

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I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

@fire with fire
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/homebuilders-are-holding-back-sales-amid-...
They don't want to run out of lots while prices are rising.
Who is buying? The one percent? Chinese buyers? Both are probable. Or, since the stock market is floundering despite trillions of dollars in FED direct injection, maybe speculators are going back to flipping houses.
Take your pick.

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We are so screwed.

Civil War. They have always pitted the people against each other, that keeps them in power. And Bernie sanders plays his part. Disgusting. While I am grateful to be working and don't have as much time to read, I see enough idiotic panicked headlines every day to keep my disgust with all of them not only alive but it grows every day. Bastards all. Savages. Power hungry psychopaths.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

snoopydawg's picture

@lizzyh7

He is so upset about the way the country has moved since he was younger and I think that is why he holds on to his beliefs that democrats are good and republicans are bad. Pelosi was on the tube talking about whatever was in her mind and I said something vague about her and he said that she was his favorite..... I just let it go because he’s got his mind set on what he believes. Romney walked on water for voting to impeach Trump until he sank below the waves and said he’d vote for Trump’s pick. Anyway I’m going to let up on him and quit fighting with him about politics. Oh yeah he asked where I’m getting my ideas about how corrupt democrats are. He really thinks I’m just silly and don’t know what I’m talking about.

How are things going with your friends?

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

@snoopydawg although I know its not fun listening to any raver from either side, most of the time trying to argue with them is an utter waste, although letting loose a righteous rant can be fun as hell. My liberal friend has been mostly silent after I reminded her just how little any voting matters. I don't push it but I will say I refuse to placate her empty hope by lying. She asks I'll say it.

Good call on your uncle. I feel for ya how irritating it is to be treated like the one who doesn't get reality, ugh. The American people seem very hopeless on ever grasping reality. Neither side wants to see just how bad things are and how much worse they'll get. Sigh. Very hard to watch.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

snoopydawg's picture

@lizzyh7

How can people see what democrats do and not see that they’re the fake opposition party? Does your friend just not have time to read the internet or do they just watch the main stream media? Send her the article I just essay'd and this one.

https://benjaminstudebaker.com/2020/08/31/the-left-case-against-supporti...

This is really good and he explains how democrats push republicans to the right and then follow after them. If this doesn’t change her mind nothing will.

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

@lizzyh7

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We are so screwed.

Amid Fears of Trump 'Stealing' Election. You can't make this stuff up. After being shafted by the Democrat Party in 2016 and 2020 he can't put two and two together that the Dems have no commitment to an honest election, ever. What happened to 200,000 Democrats in NYC that were de-registered by the Dem party? Bernie did nothing. When Obama played dirty pool by unifying all of the primary candidates against Bernie in 2020, Bernie said, please one more screwing, or more if you please. He will continue to be a good Dem stooge, no matter what. How can he not get it that the Dems are crooked as hell when it comes to elections?

By the way I am completely opposed to elections that span weeks. There are many elections whose outcomes would have been different if held a few days earlier or later. The concept is that an election is a sampling in time, on a single day, of the preference of the electorate. The Constitution specifies the first Tuesday following the first Monday in November as election day. So how to handle absentee ballots? You must swear or affirm that you marked you ballot on election day, and then you must mail it in the next few days. What about a Pandemic? The state must provide a safe voting venue. If it cannot then it must provide absentee ballots for anyone who wants one.

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Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.

Unabashed Liberal's picture

@The Wizard


By the way I am completely opposed to elections that span weeks.

But, I believe that's the DP plan--so they can temporarily install Pelosi.

Too pushed to find the article, but, even Carter didn't trust mail-in voting when he headed a voting commission.

Former President Carter said, "Absentee ballots remain the largest source of potential voter fraud.”

He took that back, several days, ago, of course. Smile

I have no problem with mail-in voting, btw--just noting the hypocrisy.

Do believe that all states should furnish them in ample time, so that the results will be tallied within days of the election. No excuse not to so do, that I can think of.

Mollie

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

@Unabashed Liberal
the postal system grinds to halt...

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We are so screwed.

wendy davis's picture

@The Wizard

election season: advertising, debates, etc. would be limited to one or two months.

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@wendy davis
And follow Maine with ranked choice voting.
Electoral college isn't that bad. it prevents disenfranchisement of huge areas of the country, but ranked choice would prevent one party states like California and Mississippi.

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We are so screwed.

a "leak" that someone (Biden) is "leading" among mail in ballots two or three days before election day, so many people will think the election is already decided and they won't vote. BTW, since nobody actually likes Biden it will probably be Democrats that will breathe a sigh of relief and stay home. Then if Trump still wins the Democrats will blame people for not voting. If Trump loses he will claim that the leak was election tampering - and the Supreme Court will back him up. He can (and I assume will) claim that Bloomberg "bought" votes by paying for convicted felons in Florida so that they get their voting rights back. This is also one where the SC can tip the election.
Or the worst case scenario, Biden actually wins. Good bye Social Security, medicare, and a million homes. And don't protest police violence, you won't just "disappear" for an hour or two after being picked up in public, then released without charges. You will disappear when no one is looking and get charged - an convicted - secretly because you really are a "Russian agent". If America becomes a fascist dictatorial terror state it will not be a buffoon that takes us there, it will be a fascist tool.

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A PROUD Hillary hater since 1993

snoopydawg's picture

@doh1304

Democrats and their media sycophants spent the primary putting down Bernie’s supporters and calling them names, but now here they are asking them to vote for ByeDone.

BTW see my latest essay on this. The guy nailed it.

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

usefewersyllables's picture

@doh1304

that there should be no counting of ballots whatsoever until the polls close on election day: that prevents this sort of mischief. Any claim of "leading in early voting" should be known to be a flat-out lie, by law. Poll people informally all you want outside the system (gawd knows that'll never stop, because it is too profitable), but no actual ballot should be *touched* until the voting deadline has passed.

At that point, count everything that you have received, and leave the rest uncounted: it is not as if election day should be a surprise to any US citizen at this point.

Early counting leads to leaks and propaganda, and should be absolutely avoided at all costs. Similarly, the deadline should be the same across the country- meaning the east coast will have to wait longer, while the west coast finishes up a little earler. If an election is vote-by-mail and early voting dropoff with the election officials is allowed, there is no reason whatsoever for anyone to dally around and miss out.

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

@usefewersyllables
Or limited to say Saturday through Monday immediately prior to the election. A month or more is not a reasonable snapshot. States can devote reasonable resources to the vote instead of state helicopters and state governor's mansions. Illinois has a state mansion and the governor spends all his time in his private mansion in Chicago.

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We are so screwed.

If you take the time to listen to the relevant few minutes of the interview with Her Royal Clintonness, it's pretty apparent that she's urging Biden not to concede until all of the ballots are counted and maybe recounted. Gore shot himself in the foot in 2000 by blithely conceding and then retracting that. I can't see how people could listen to her video and then claim that Clinton is urging Biden to act undemocratically; I have to imagine that folks who don't like Clinton (count me in on that one) are happy to jump to that conclusion.

If you clip the interview right around that sentence or two, she did utter the words quoted, but to present only that is to take it out of context. Trimmed of context they are fodder for both-siderism. There are all too many of mainstream and independent media out there who are happy to fob off yellow-journalism, clickbait, etc.

I found the interview video here. Take a look see, it's only a couple of minutes, and see if Clinton is really urging Biden to usurp the will of the people.

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travelerxxx's picture

@MinuteMan

Reads as though you meant to insert a link to the video you mention. I'd like to watch it. Well, actually I wouldn't like it so much as I simply want to listen for myself. I'll grit my teeth and watch it, distasteful as it may be.

It would not surprise me to find that people are cherry-picking her words, although past performance has shown that she's pretty good with idiotic statements – which is probably why this has gained traction. I'd like to see for myself.

So, please try the video link again.

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