My response to mrules on DK

The original diary: this primary made me realize that gender equality is more important to me than liberalism

She wants a woman. Got it.

After watching how the local Dem party unabashedly insulted young people of both genders throughout our county convention, I am feeling a LOT less like the party, itself, deserves support. I recently took a BIG step to increase my participation in the party -optimistic but not confident that my abilities/stamina can fulfill the new role- but I am seriously considering stepping back down after witnessing the anti-democratic behavior by the party at the recent convention. I went the first leg of the mile and was told in no uncertain terms that my attendance was irrelevant. The smugness and self-satisfaction and anti-inclusion was palpable. And there are PLENTY of women in party leadership at the local level here.

On this site, I’ve been mansplained about my misogyny for not falling in line with my genitalia numerous time both directly and by insinuation, so forgive me if the arguments here ring quite hollow for me. The party as it stands is quite fond of women of a particular class — I was born and groomed into that class but my health status tugged me out of it. I do not see it as inclusive on anything more than a surface level.*

What I would like to see is an earnest effort at greatly expanded voter participation of ALL genders colors, income, and every other expression of self. I see my local party RUNNING IN REVERSE from that goal. It was reported there were 8500 people at the county convention in 2008.

This year the largest senate district had fewer attendees than apportioned delegates to be sent from that district to the state convention (roughly 770 — the other three senate districts send dozens of delegates, if that, and mine I believe is scheduled to send two dozen and was short of attendees to make into delegates by six).

Tell me the turnout this year portends well for the party this election cycle and then let’s both sit back when the time comes and see how that plays out. I celebrate your optimism and your satisfaction in principle, but your mileage is extremely different from mine.

I dearly look forward to the day when we have a strong woman sworn in as president. I know now that day will come soon. But. not. this. woman. I have zero confidence that she my needs are a priority for her in the slightest. I will very likely vote for her should she pull off the nomination, but even if she pulls off that contest, I have no confidence that she’ll carry the national election.

*I have said here previously and will likely say again that I see Bernie as a far better feminist than his opponent because of how his platform addresses the needs of women of very class and color. His plans are far more supportive of women reaching closer to economic parity (beginning with a wage which is substantially closer to a LIVING wage than the alternate suggestion), and he believes in a much stronger health care system which will have a better safety net. Having earlier been faced with losing health care, that’s a particularly sensitive issue for me because it has been absolutely life or death in my case.

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1506296/60554545#comment_60554545

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to state that "gender equality is more important to me than liberalism" is to state that it's more important that both men and women earn the same subsistence wages, than that nobody earn subsistence wages. moreover, it's a paradoxical objective, because i guarantee you that if men and women earn the same subsistence wages, the women will be suffering more than the men.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

MsGrin's picture

For me, her argument smacks of privilege. She appears to be in a position where the economic difference is not a consideration. I'd respect her more if she acknowledged that.

I've had a real awakening this week that this party is more elitist than I had any idea. The Thom Hartmann interview with Thomas Frank (the Listen Liberal one) was a MASSIVE shock to me, frankly. I feel a bit ashamed to have missed what is so blatantly obvious now that I see it. Now that I see there are more in the series, I'll go watch at some point: http://conversationswithgreatminds.com/

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

Lady Libertine's picture

Ive got that video queued up, hope to watch later this evening.

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https://www.quantcast.com/dailykos.com#demographicsCard

Take a gander at these demographics for dailykos - from its own website stats.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Deja's picture

And they're all, well most of them, hillbots? Sounds odd to me.

How do they come up with this info? I've never been asked, and I'm none of those things except old in my kids' eyes.

I'd go dig around for the answers myself, but that site won't acknowledge my back button - and I'm a weirdo who gets pissed off by that lol.

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with this info.

suffice to say, you're being tracked.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

If only so that I can know whether or not my countermeasures are helping to any substantial degree. I'm not a pro, or even a serious amateur, which means that while I can know enough to be irritated at tracking, and to run the obvious consumer anti-tracking add-ons, I don't have the underlying competency to know whether they're actually working to any substantial degree. Not unless someone who does have the expertise tells me how the bad guys are doing the tracking, at least; and given the increasing sophistication with which I'm sure they're working, perhaps not even then.

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MsGrin's picture

...having trouble navigating the page for some reason, but that's an eye-opener, too!
I have to say that most of my friends on the site also have physical issues which have impacted their ability to navigate work life - this reminds me that we are a small number over there.

Thank you.

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

Let me summarized who dkos members are. They are overwhelmingly white males, 55+ with no children, grad degrees and incomes over 100K. These are the people shaming us, women, of being entitled and privileged. Fuck them.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

MsGrin's picture

...just was no scroll bar to move around in the frame. Am sure it's on my end - had that happen on another site yesterday.

It certainly DOES make a mockery of folks claiming we're all better feminists collectively on DK than any particular women who have another preference in who to lead us all. 'Whatever' to Kos on that. If he feels he's a better feminist than I am (which I believe he may actually), who am I to argue?

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

It would appear I'm a stereotypical Kossack from that description, which perhaps for years I was. But demographics are not destiny, which both Markos and the Democratic Party will likely learn to their cost in years to come.

I just can't imagine why arguments like mrules' are taken seriously. Democrats firmly in the grip of identity politics manipulation indignantly deny that they are practicing any such thing, even when it is as obvious as in that diary. They are blind to their own culpability in falling for the scams of the establishment. The continuing derogation of BernieBros, despite all evidence, shows that divide-and-conquer tactics of the oligarchic class work just as well on Democrats as they do on Republicans. And that the targets of those tactics are just as clueless about being manipulated.

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Please help support caucus99percent!

gulfgal98's picture

creates a cult like atmosphere and that is exactly what I see in the comments over there. It is sick and the Democratic party has made it their primary operational mode because they have nothing else to offer. Whenever I read anything by the Hillary supporters, it is never about policy or real issues. It is always about how badly she has been treated and we "need" a female President. Baloney! If anyone should identify with Hillary Clinton, it is probably me. I am the same age as Clinton. I am white, female and a retired civil servant professional. The difference between me and those Stepford Wives is that I have a brain and my brain tells me that issues are far more important than identity every time.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Martha Pearce-Smith's picture

BAD women for not supporting Clinton... like we are some kind of traitor to our sex for not supporting her KNOWING she is a horrid person and candidate.

Aggressive

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First Nations News

hester's picture

I vote w my brain not my private parts. And fwiw, I fly into a rage when voters are disenfranchised and this year they were in at least 2 primaries (ILL and AZ) and to me that's unforgivable. I'm done w the party. Oh and the Thomas Frank Book "Listen Liberal" I'm just starting. It's an eye opener, for sure.

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Don't believe everything you think.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

about voter suppression/election fraud.

Hillary won't even condemn what happened in AZ, much less press for an investigation. Why? Because it benefits her.

This is the media talking to Hillary re: her election chances:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9mba2qb9do]

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Hillbilly Dem's picture

for the nomination, Hillary should be screaming the LOUDEST! Maricopa County. 1.2 million people. Huge minority population. 60 polling places? (Engineered by the Republicans, of course.) My county has 35,000 residents and 33 polling places. 5 hour waiting line to vote? She should be hollering. If she does get the nod and the general election is the same clusterf#$k in Maricopa Co. in November, she may wish that she'd raised Hell about it.

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"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey

Steven D's picture

Even fighting there and losing would help out local candidates, but I bet she doesn't bother spending a dime there in the general.

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"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott

Grannus's picture

Same as it was with Bill. Me first, nobody second.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

pfiore8's picture

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“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"

Deja's picture

Which part of her who-who will she use to ruin the country?

Which part of their packages have former presidents (Bill aside) have they used to do the same?

Bizarro world!

But don't mind me, I just think with my brain, not my who-who.

And, for those wondering, who-who is from a movie called Boys on the Side.

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over there. I decided not to comment. I'm 62, white female, married, in an academic milieu (so not rich but coping okay). I have been a feminist all my life, I know all about sexism and how shitty it is.

But my true heritage is FDR (who was guided by Eleanor) and the revolutionary idea that ordinary people matter, that the piracy that the banks and corporations engage in can be stopped in a non-violent way by enacting laws that protect the PEOPLE. My great grandparents were immigrants; my great grandfather lost his construction business in the Depression and said that if it hadn't been for the FDR work programs they would have starved to death. I mean that literally.

I was raised on Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger and all the rest. Give people (women, blacks, immigrants, everyone) fair chances to get education and to get work and they will PROVE their worth. I am impatient with all these introspective, theoretical arguments. Let's just DO it.

If HRC isn't arguing for $15 minimum wage, then I don't see how she is remotely helpful to women. I just don't see it. Bottom line.

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MsGrin's picture

I'm not far behind you in age, but enough so all those artists' songs were lullabies when I came along...

Dunno if Kennedy was right about non-violent revolution pre-empting a violent one, but who knows. That Open Carry bit about the Repub national convention (nevermind, not going to finish that thought...).

I still think Bernie wins. It may be close, but that he pulls it off. Damn bird yesterday (I mean that lovingly) seemed like a sign. Wink

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

Hillary's $12 minimum is 80% of a $15 minimum. Ain't that about the percentage gap in gender based income inequality?

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

MsGrin's picture

...but then you're not a woman, so others may think you have no right to express such an opinion
(I think it's math and you do, in case that's not clear).

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

I know enough of you from here and 'there'. I logically derived, the intent implied, (I was not surprised) to reach a reality based conclusion.
I've read you more than you can know, so, it was rather easy.
We cool.

Peace, love, joy!

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

I read that diary (only out of respect for you MsGrin) to see the context for your reply. I even got a short ways down the comments section before I gave up and closed the page.
In a sense it was good to see this admission that others may not accuse there. Yet in the end, all it leaves is sadness.
Irrationality is not the exclusive domain of any groupings of people, to be sure. I've come to accept that 'it is what it is'. People are animals. Ancient must/needs have led us to where we are. Truly we should rail at God.
Everyone isn't as logical, rational, forward thinking, kind and perfect as I am. 'It is what it is' I accept that. It just leaves me sad.

Just to be clear, I didn't say I was perfect. I'm as perfect as I am. If perfection is a goal then there's also a path.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

MsGrin's picture

I haven't yet fully kicked my habit, obviously.

Yes, sadness. Deeper than that I feel about being metaphorically cast out over there in a place I thought of as a home (although I figure at some point I'll get ACTUALLY kicked out since my feelings are not allowed/honored/tolerated there at this point).

And, yes, it is what it is - there and on a much wider playing field.

But the finch came to Bernie. And while we DO (or I do, anyway) rail at God, we are sometimes gifted with a rainbow of hope at least symbolically as we were yesterday.

The longer this loooong campaign season drags on, the more sure I am that this moment of Bernie is a movement which transcends this election cycle, whatever the outcome this year.

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

I'm not giving up yet.

signs signs everywhere theres signs
the people are rising up
now is the time
Bernie's got your back
Can't you read the signs!

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzaZkRnrQA8 width:420 height:315]
I'd be grateful if our wordsmiths would finish the song I started. Please feel free to do so if you wish.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

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Miep's picture

On the subject. I'm not sure I agree with her core premise that Clinton would beat Sanders handily if their sexes were reversed, though she has a point. And I think if it was Warren instead of Sanders running, basically the same people would be backing her.

But it's a good example of how a woman who takes feminism seriously can come to see that Sanders is the better choice.

https://medium.com/@laurenbesser/had-bernie-been-bernadette-the-heartbre...

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Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.

MsGrin's picture

As Bernie gained momentum, his candidacy opened space for intolerable misogyny,

She's very honest with herself and I appreciate that. But I have not witnessed any serious misogyny and I'm furious at the allegations I've seen about what amounts to nothing.

I know in my bones a woman will be president SOON - it's in the works. In my normal lifespan should I live that long. I want it to be a woman we can celebrate wholeheartedly. And there are WONDERFUL candidates out there who have not thrown people to the wolves as HRC has/does.

For me, it's not just having the physical body of a woman in the white house, it's more than that - I want a woman who does embody more characteristics of what has been excluded from the white house, and to be honest, that 'woman-ness' may or may not have been born with woman parts. I want a different level of, frankly, compassion and nurturing. Frankly, Bernie's got more of that in him from my perspective. Bernie gives a damn about the human aspects of humanity. When he meets with folks - look at how he related to that little bird, for instance - he actually LOOKS at them and gleans something about their world, their perspective. For Hillary, it's about making political points and how it will look on teevee. She'll say anything, use anyone.

Another example was Bernie bumping into Sandra Bland's family. He kept that private, hasn't said a word about it in public. To honor them. That the photo got out was someone in that party connected to the family posted the photo on FB. A photo the family asked for. There is such compassion and grace in Bernie. I trust him, and I don't trust people easily. I do NOT at all trust Hillary to look after people with my needs.

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

sojourns's picture

billThePill.png
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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

MsGrin's picture

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

JayRaye's picture

Been working and working today also, and that's why I'm late to respond to this post.

Would like to say more, but rushing off, and so all I can say is: well done.

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons