The Online Graveyard of The Progressive Movement
Until a couple of years ago I used to frequent a website known as the online liberal bastion the world over. At the beginning, I used to just read essays posted by other users/members, many of which I found to be very informative, compelling, inspiring, and motivating. Eventually I became a regular contributor, posting essays about issues I found interesting, including the progressive movement, Occupy Wall Street, social justice, war and peace, government corruption, warranteless surveillance, the media, and (peaceful) protest strategies and tactics.
Once I became a prolific writer at the site, I eventually built a following and my essays started getting noticed via the site's (user) rating system. That's when things got interesting!
As people familiar with my writing would know, I placed a lot of emphasis on issues related to government corruption, the propagandist effects of the corporate media conglomerate, and social justice. As I kept writing about these topics, and as my essays became more popular, a small group of users started hijacking the comments' section. Now, having been an Internet user for many years I was very familiar with trolls and the like, but it wasn't something I was expecting to see at that site, again, known to be a safe haven for liberals and progressives.
But once the (organized) trolling pattern manifested itself, I started asking myself if perhaps my focus on government corruption and the use of propaganda to manipulate the population were somehow making some "key players" at the site uncomfortable. After all, once one really takes the time to research issues related to government corruption, is not hard to conclude that the entire political system is rigged, and that that includes both major political parties, which I call "corporatist parties."
As I continued writing and conducting research I would eventually read lots of articles about the Snowden leaked files; about the Stratfor files leaked by Jeremy Hammond. I read many articles by Glenn Greenwald. I conducted lots of research from WikiLeaks documents. I learned about how the national security apparatus monitors, infiltrates and disrupts social justice groups. I did a lot of research about the techniques they use, about "cognitive infiltration," about different tactics used against social justice activists characterized as "radicals," "realists," "idealists," and "opportunists."
Here's the thing: the more research I did about these subjects, and the more I wrote about them, the more hostile and relentless the trolls at the site became (at the time the popularity of my essays reached their peak). I found that curious, and then started analyzing what the trolls were doing, and eventually came to the conclusion they were using text-book "Propaganda techniques," including ad hominem, bandwagon, and other logical fallacies.
Now, at this point I'm not going to ask you (the reader) to agree with my conclusion or allusion to the possibility that somehow the trolls were professional propagandists, or were somehow targeting me as an organized group sanctioned by the sites management, including the owner. At this point I'd like to transition into a more general argument...
In the two-plus years after I stopped posting essays at the site, I haven't had the need or desire to visit it. After all, I had concluded that the site was extremely toxic in its insidiousness when it came to manipulating its unsuspecting (liberal) user base. However, for the last week-and-a-half, I've visited the site quite a few times to read posts from people I'd come to know and respect; mainly fellow progressives.
And guess what? I've seen the exact same pattern, which motivated me to write this essay you're reading -- as a warning.
As many readers familiar with these topics may know, we are currently facing a very serious crisis when it comes to democracy and the rule of law in this country. Researchers from Princeton University released a study not long ago which concluded that the U.S. has transitioned into an oligarchy. All levers of power (government, media, military) have been either captured by corporatist cartels and wealthy individuals, or have been highly compromised.
In the face of this reality, social justice groups have mobilized throughout the country, including groups like Black Lives Matters (for which I have great respect because of their non-partisan strategic and confrontational approach), and many others. And of course, there is the Bernie Sanders' candidacy, which has tapped into "the movement" for social justice.
Given this reality, and given the (corporate-controlled, for profit) national security apparatus' well-known propensity to monitor, infiltrate, and disrupt social justice movement, there has never been a more important moment in time (in recent history) for activists to be able to connect with each other, educate themselves about the true nature of the system, form bonds, and coalesce into a movement that share a long-term strategic goal of changing the system at the root level.
Getting back to the online destination I'm discussing here, it is my view that at the end of the day it doesn't really matter if the well-organized disruption (constant and relentless trolling) is being done by professional propagandists (corporate, national security, whomever) or because of a confluence of interests that results in something closer to Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky's "Propaganda Model" (conceptual model in political economy to explain how propaganda and systemic biases function in mass media), at the end of the day the damage (it does to social justice activists, progressives, and the movement) is the same.
The constant trolling, the bias in rules enforcement, the hostility, the intimidation, the double-standards, the insidious appeals to progressives' sensitivities ends up acting as a powerful disrupting force against the movement.
When it comes to the site's insidiousness, on the one hand it allows the posting of material by progressive writers, some of them whom may be considered controversial (by the site's standards). It purports to promote LGBTQ rights, women's rights, workers' rights, diversity.
But in closer (and careful) analysis, when it comes to people's ability to use the site to help them coalesce into an effective and strategic movement, the site serves as a sort of "disruptor," interfering with the ability of the movement to "close the circuit."
On the other hand, when it comes to pushing the pro-establishment (Neoliberal) narrative, I see no such organized, sanctioned disruption (overall). This is why I consider the site a tool of the establishment, in every sense of the word. The dishonesty and manipulation users are exposed to in that site are toxic.
I'd like to highlight the context in which I'm writing this today: At one point I wrote hundreds of essays at that site, and as of today, it has been over two years since I've visited (other than on a handful of occasions). I believe that having had that two-plus year time-frame has given me an even better perspective when it comes to confirming my conclusions about the site's effect users.
My final conclusion is that anybody expecting the site to be a place where progressives can come together to learn, organize, and strengthen the movement will be disappointed. To the contrary, because of its insidiousness, I consider it a graveyard of progressivism.
I don't expect I'll be writing about that site again, ever, since I see no reason to visit. But hopefully anybody wondering what's wrong with that site can read this essay and consider my conclusions. It would hopefully clarify what they may already know or suspect.
Comments
Glad to see you online again. I'm intrigued
by something you said:
I really, really want to hear more from you specifically how that disruption works. What exactly is the site doing to prevent shared sentiments from coalescing into collective action? Can you give some examples?
The marriage between capitalism and democracy is over. –Slavoj Zizek
jumping in here....
jumping in here....
its a little like MSM and 24 hours TV cable news stuff, once you start to see it (the bias or whatever "it" may be) only then do you start to really see it, more and more. At some point, it becomes so painfully obvious you can't imagine how you were ever such a dolt that you missed it, lol.
Im sure Ray or others can give more specific examples, but... yeah.
Also if you raise a valid issue
that reflects poorly upon the Democratic party or a specific Democrat, you are shouted down, brow beaten, flagged, or hounded by the blog nannies. A recent example is the current ban on saying anything negative about Hillary Clinton. When I complained that this ban was a form of censorship and the fact that anyone could be put into Time Out or banned for raising what is a valid issue concerning her candidacy regarding policy which, in effect, ends up being self censorship, a certain front pager told me that it was in no uncertain terms NOT "censorship." This is exactly what autocratic regimes do to their citizens, although the penalties are far worse.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
You could also be banned for raising a valid issue...
about the ban on bringing up valid issues.
At a certain point it all boiled down to:
"Because I said so"
Which doesn't even work on pre-teens anymore.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
maggid, I have to admit that your question almost
resulted in a TOS PTSD episode, but joking aside, here's the answer to your question...
As some have pointed out, we are being bombarded with massive amounts of 24/7 propaganda. I have a lot more to say about this and will continue writing about it, but I've concluded that when you add what seems to be carefully-calibrated pro-establishment (Neocon/Neoliberal) propaganda spewed out by the corporate media 24/7, with what are probably thousands of national security, corporate (special interest), and political/ideological trolls engaging in what I call cognitive infiltration, we are then talking about one of the most powerful and sophisticated (mind-numbing) propaganda machines the world has ever seen.
I've concluded that this propaganda's effects over the population reaches almost science fiction levels. I've concluded that it is akin to a PsyOps weapon that has been deployed against the people. There is a very important article which I think explains the true nature of the system: "Sheldon Wolin and Inverted Totalitarianism" by Chris Hedges.
I argue that the first line of defense of this increasingly brutal and Orwellian ruling class is propaganda. Within that context, I consider the insidiousness of GOS to be utterly evil (and I'm not religious, btw). I'll have more to say about that later on...
But as to your question about how this type of (my alleged) deception and propaganda that takes place at GOS interferes with people's ability to connect, learn from each other, deconstruct the exact nature of the system, then come up with organized, long-term strategies to resist, oppose, and act against the system with the express purpose of changing it at the root level, well, that's why these nebulous forces I reference go out of their way to cognitively infiltrate and disrupt the movement. Others in this comment thread have referenced "The Matrix," and made allusions to what Hoover did to the Black Panthers and other social justice groups, to people like Malcolm X. That's what the ruling class does. And it has never let up. If anything, the surveillance, infiltration, manipulation, disruption has become more sophisticated and entrenched, using the most advance psychological manipulation sciences that had existed.
Within that context, if one considers the importance for societies so afflicted to find a way to rise up against the oppression, I reference the following: Doing Democracy: The MAP Model for Organizing Social Movements by Bill Moyer (not to be confused with Bill Moyers):
I argue that what propaganda does is to interfere with this process. I argue that the propaganda we are subjected to is specifically designed to interfere with this process. And I argue that in the final analysis, GOS is an insidious "tool of the establishment," and part of this propaganda machine.
www.RayPensador.com
When you boil it all down, the number one step you can take to get out from under the fascist boot of the oligarchy is to stop subjecting yourself to the the U.S. corporate news media. It is a powerful psyops weapon.
Peer pressure is the inverted totalitarianism
I would say, this is the oldest form of totalitarianism. You can not go against the group. You see this is almost every organization that doesn't have a strong leadership that protects the voices of all. Unfortunately leaderships weaken over time, which is why dynasties in monarchies start often strong and popular and then decline over time.
We see this in movements, nonprofits, churches. Sometimes it happens at the beginning or it takes time to arise. Communism in the USSR quickly devolved, even before the Revolution ended. The French Revolution went through numerous rounds of this before being coopted by Napoleon. The Roman Republic took awhile before it devolved to an empire.
Fascism depends on this methodology. It's the use of Mob Psychology to make people conform to social norms defined by strong leaders and those who are strong enough to resist the mob psychology are marginalized, villified, criminalized or even eliminated. People like Nietzsche and Gustave Le Bon (La Psychologie des foules "Mob Psychologie") and others studied this and others have refined the techniques. It only makes sense that by the 21st century, the techniques have been refined to a very high degree.
-9.75, -8.21
Very Lord of the Flies-like, no? nt
There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.
Hi Ray. I missed you over there
LaFeminista, wow, I'm very glad to see you here.
You were one of my favorite writers at that other place. I look forward to reading your posts here.
www.RayPensador.com
When you boil it all down, the number one step you can take to get out from under the fascist boot of the oligarchy is to stop subjecting yourself to the the U.S. corporate news media. It is a powerful psyops weapon.
Left TOP/GOS After Obama Inauguration
My personal history and experiences have led me to distrust most every institution I am part of (including some of my family) at some level. Building authentic relationships requires a personal commitment to one's own integration (in the Jungian sense). Relationships we have with others in our lives are grounded in that integration.
My personal experiences have made me examine at some level most everything I encounter. When others start requiring me to betray my-self, even if it's something as seemingly trivial as reading a diary, that's an honoring I don't care to bestow.
On the other hand, learning about the methods of propaganda is a valuable body of knowledge to acquire, and sometimes examining these sites yields some fresh insights.
Perfect example today on ABC
On This Morning with George Stephanopoulos, one of the talking heads spit out a talking point that must have been sent out from the Cyborg because the owner of TOP actually said the same thing in his Ides of March edict. Basically, Bernie should be nice to poor Hilary. Focus on blah blah blah, and not yadda yadda yadda. Help bring the party together. Yep, it was like deja vu.
Steffie bothers me more than
Upchuck.
Actually, Todd has been playing a real journalist of late. Not always, but far more than earlier.
Good Cop Bad Cop. They take turns. nt
FEEL THE BERN: "But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing." - Thomas Paine
"Here I Stand, I can do no other." - Attributed to Martin Luther, 1521
The establishment thrives on the division of identity politics
By pointing out corruption and uncomfortable similarities, one begins to set people on a path which does not divide, but unites them.
The establishment identity politics in play depends upon deep entrenched specific identification in order to allow maximum division among all of the pople. Anything that threatens that becomes the enemy of the 'establishments defined good'.
How many 'Republicans are bad' reinforcement stories do we need? How many times is too many to claim that the other side is worse so that means Democrats being better is always the given conclusion. It's easy to point to the other and say, "look how awful they are". It's much harder to turn that analysis around and that is precisely what the establishment does not want people doing.
If the other squad for team politics is already killing hostages and dumping bodies, then it is easy to come in waving your weapons and tell everybody they're safe as long as they all do what you tell them to. The squad only holding hostages with some collateral damage, even as they see to the medical treatment of a few of the injured, is still helping to hold everyone hostage.
If the other political party is so damned horrible, it really isn't that hard to be a margin or so better and conclude you're the good guy. If the other political squad for team politics are already over the cliff, and you're still hanging on to the edge by three fingers, then you're 'the stable firm ground' candidate by default no matter how precarious your situation remains.
Those other guys are going to make us all hit the ground. Vote for me, I'm still hanging on by a few fingers so that makes me the solid safe candidate with a firm grasp on things to vote for!
Excellent comment!
Why I despise identity politics so much. It is a purposeful distraction from the real issues that affect nearly all of us.
Markos is still playing that game even harder than ever by emphasizing that Bernie cannot attract people of color or that the Democratic party is set for the next generation because of changing demographics. Talk about taking the electorate for granted. It ain't gonna happen. People of all colors are catching onto the sham.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
yup
yup
I went looking the other day to get a better sense on some of the timing there , the build up to kos' Ides of March Edict, which #1 was posted March 4th. #2 "revised" of that ("and I mean everyone") was March 8th. But before that was this one A real liberal revolution starts with communities of color on March 2nd. That was his bat signal, lol, if you ask me. BOHICA. It was uhm well ridiculous. Got 445 recs but 1,860 comments. Not reading them but Im sure a good number of them were ppl saying,in one form or another: 'Not gonna work this time'.
wish I could turn off comments over there
I won't be able to read that diary, if it has 1,860 comments. The diaries that have 500 or more comments tend to lock my computer up. Maybe I need more RAM -- I've only got 4gb... or maybe enlarge my C partition? People with laptops or smartphone have even greater difficulty.
Not that I'll be going back much, but the BNR live feed and other select things (or rather select contributors), already mentioned in comments above, still have value.
Comments, I suppose, are one of the biggest driving forces of that place, for discussion of ideas (when allowed), while at the same time comments (due to trolling/hijacking) are also one of the major motivators to avoid the place.
I wish there was a way, in account preferences or simply at the top of every screen-page, to turn them on/off.
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rezolution, try the mobile site
Right click the title of a story you are interested in that has too many comments to open. You should see an option to "copy link address." Select that and then paste the address into a new tab. Then delete the www and replace it with m
So your url will look like http://m.dailykos.com/whatever-etc
Then load that page.
That will open the story without comments and in a more minimal format. You have the option to open the comments at the bottom of the story. Usually even with low RAM, you can open the comments.
Thanks!
Sounds like just what I was asking for. Thank you, OLinda.
⍢
You're welcome, rez.
Hope it works for you.
Media spin
Hello Ray,
So nice to see you here. I always enjoyed your articles at TOP. I'm hoping this site isn't invaded by trolls in the ways you describe.
This AM The Disney (ABC) News had Trump on a 20 min uninterrupted phone call interview. Had a discussion about the inevitable Trump Clinton race. Finally had a 3 min interview with Bernie - where the main thrust was are you going to be nice to Clinton between now and the coronation? Too much.
Hope to read your views often in the future here at c99.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
I saw that too.
Posted about it in this thread too. Only what struck me was the talking point made by one of the guests that was basically what the little sell out weasel from TOP in his Ides of March post said. Creepy - like scripted on both their parts. A perfect example of what this essay is saying.
Hey Ray good to see you here
Hey Ray good to see you here and sorry Im late to the party!
Just quick-skimmed comments here also.
yeah, your "sin" there was twofold. First, you grew a "following" there and two, you were trying to ORGANIZE and encourage others to get off our butts and work toward a more tangible and effective resistance of some kind. And people were very responsive to that. So BAM out ya had to go.
Seen similar happen to other folks and not just at that site. At TOP, you were certainly not the first but you were especially vocal and unapologetic, especially about motivating people to Organize in a more, well a bigger way. Someone else above mentioned slinkerwink, her too, but she was more focused around the ACA and public option and all that. Buhdydharma was another one, of course.
The other environment where I saw it firsthand (sorta) was in Occupy back in 2011 or so. Similar (but different from any blog type 'place' in obvious ways) but many similarities wrt tactics and manipulations. Disruption, sowing discord, etc. Its very insidious, and doesn't always look like what you'd think it would.
I have not done any kind of extensive 'research' on the subject, just a lot of reading (and some talking w/ some key people a few years back now) but I would strongly recommend that anyone who is serious about getting more active in this arena do some work with this. Thing is, They (ya know "They") have it down to a science, and they have plenty of $ funding behind it. They are very good at what they do. And, this is not exactly new, they just do periodic 'upgrades', heh.
sigh, don't have much time for this topic today but just wanted to pop in.
I started to feel behind the curve
a lot. For example, Ray, you were all over the rec lists, then somehow, you became vilified. I wondered what I had missed. Same with Alan Grayson, who went from an absolute icon to being called a dino. Ted Rall didn't get a cyber foot in the door before he was hounded to go away. slinkerwink...same story, although she continues to write.
I constantly felt I had missed something, some information that if only I had been keeping up, I wouldn't be so damn ignorant, and instead of questioning the atmosphere, and considering that paid operatives were involved, I blamed myself for failing to be an intelligent and informed liberal. Any thoughts that it was planned would make me slap my hand and stop typing, 'cause CT.
Well, the March edict is not my imagination. It is the culmination of the Plan.
Keep writing, Ray.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
You missed the "Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact",
upon which the Faithful were supposed to turn on a dime and espouse principles and policies they had been denouncing the minute before.
The original was supposed to be "secret", but it was no secret to the CPUSA, which demanded an abrupt volte-face of its members. Many of them, unable to stomach such hypocrisy, quit in disgust, and the Party lost a lot of its influence. (Fredrik Pohl was there - and quit.)
I don't know who made agreements with whom at That Other Place, but it's obvious that agreements were made.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Curiouser & curiouser!
Okay, this makes me want to know more!
Pohl tells the story in his autobiography,
which is also a history of science fiction fandom, The Way The Future Was. And he makes it clear that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, or at least the fact of a pact between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, was known to insiders in the Communist Party USA at the time. The general public didn't learn about it until much later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact (That Other Place hates and despises Wikipedia, but it does give a general overview and a place to start further digging if you want to know more.)
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
As I alluded to above, the basic principle of
Democratic Centralism is that once the Central Committee of the Party takes a decision, all party Members are expected to acquiesce immediately, and with out question, else be purged and sent into exile as an "enemy of the People".
The parallels with TOP are uncanny.
There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.
Just about every
effective liberal voice that came to dkos in my 10 years there was run off or banned. You were targeted. You did not take any shit and called them as you saw them. I think your sin was you did not give in to the factions that declared all issues were irrelevant other then white privilege, racism, sexism and our helpless victimization in the face of the biggest baddest evil ever. The Democratic machine are counting on the disconnect they have carefully created since god knows when. Your in good company. I'm really glad I get to read you again with out getting enraged at the antics of the flying monkeys that kos and Deo dispatched every time you posted.
That place is toxic and is a graveyard full of the bones of democratic principles, humanism or just plain decency. I'm ashamed of myself for staying there for so long after I knew what it was about. I know what the Republicans are about and my only excuse is that I figured wrongly that the only game in town was the Democratic party and that dkos was a place where 'progressives' could take it back. It's a waste of effort and it keeps people engaged in attacking each other in a sick game that does not want people to look at the truth or speak of any reality other then partisan loyalty, fear and loathing.
So glad to be reading you again. So sorry for the pain you endured at dkos.
You bring up something that was obvious
but I couldn't articulate the reason. White privilege and racism.
Shaun King was writing about police misconduct towards blacks, doing great work. Soon, 3 or 4 hired writers doing more of the same. Not connected to BLM. The FP is covered with those kinds of stories. We have a horrible strain of racism in this country, and police and grand juries and the whole criminal justice system needs to be examined.
And then connected to politicians and government officials who will work to rectify the situation. I was not seeing the political connections to the stories.
As you point out, it was a distraction. I found out details of specific incidences of police misconduct, got angry, had my heart torn to shreds, but discovered no cohesive, political or practical way to fight the evil.
Thanks. I knew there had to be a reason. I never snapped to the distraction aspect.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
I saw that clearly
I had only been a member since 2014, but had been lurking for awhile. Don't remember exactly when, either 2012 or 2010, but started taking more interest in '14.
I saw divisions on the site, particularly between the Liberals and the Progressives, but it still seemed like lively discussion between people who had a lot of common interests. But, it became nastier and nastier as it became clear that Hillary wasn't going to have a free ride to the nomination.
And when people who had been long-time members, even from the very beginning, being attacked and villified, even by more fairly recent members - and these long-time members weren't supported by the site. Then the edict came down, and that was the final straw. It was clearly no longer going to accept progressive voices, only the "liberal" voices of the establishment. I haven't been back since around the 14th.
-9.75, -8.21
I agree with you.
I first began to notice a concentrated effort by certain posters to undermine liberal thought and jerk us into line during the controversies surrounding the Affordable Care Act. There were numerous "no we can't" posters there, swarming anyone who disagreed with them. These people were there, apparently, 24/7. I suspected they were paid operatives due to their dedication to some pretty sorry causes as well as their availability. Most people have to work. And most people -- while they may argue -- aren't that hysterically dedicated to kicking other people into line. One of them harangued me for several days because I had recommended an OPOL diary on having read only a few words of it. "Against site rules! Against site rules!" Nobody who is both sane and operating in good faith goes that nuts over a recommendation, even if the entire diary was not read beforehand. Of course, the site rule is that you can't suggest that someone is a shill. How convenient. I'm pretty sure most of the people who have frequented that site in good faith know exactly which posters I mean. Now the thought control is overt. The thought police over there never affected my opinion on anything, but they did make it less and less likely that I would write that opinion. Or that I would read theirs. The winnowing out predates the banhammer, as you note in your excellent essay.
Twain Disciple
It's Global
Ray, I definitely remember your articles; they were spot-on, but they definitely challenged the status quo, and so you were pilloried.
Today, I opened the newspaper and got what I expected: NO coverage of the primary elections last night. I had to go to like page six (excuse me, page 14!), where there was a small article that read:
I kid you not.
Bernie is a win-win.
My child psychology/developmental stages knowledge is rusty
However I believe around the age of two when children cover their eyes they believe what they can't see does not exist. The news media continues to be like those two year olds...hoping Bernie does not really exist. Of course there is plenty of $$$ in their hands to help block out the Bright Light of Bernie.
but it is our eyes they cover
You're right, it IS like two-year-olds covering their eyes (or putting heads in sand). Except the news media are supposed to be OUR eyes. At least that's the way I remember it, from back when we still had the fairness doctrine. Also what I was taught in journalism class, several decades ago. So if the media cover their eyes, it is so others will not see.
Yes, the $$$ and the favors owed and favors promised... by those who want our vision blinded.
⍢
I didn't set out to be a journalist
...but there is such a precious dearth of honest people! I remember when it became apparent to me that control of the media is one of the most valuable super powers. We do not desire to control other people, we wish them to be free, and do not care to profit by them, especially by their misery!
It occurred to me today that it may very well be impossible to establish a state of mutual benevolence, think of a hippie commune on a grand and rational scale. They who would criminalize real helping seem to rule the day.
Bernie is a win-win.
I didn't set out to be a journalist
...but there is such a precious dearth of honest people! I remember when it became apparent to me that control of the media is one of the most valuable super powers. We do not desire to control other people, we wish them to be free, and do not care to profit by them, especially by their misery!
It occurred to me today that it may very well be impossible to establish a state of mutual benevolence, think of a hippie commune on a grand and rational scale. They who would criminalize real helping seem to rule the day.
Bernie is a win-win.
Sanders Blackout
I think what you just reported is incredible. We certainly are in full-on oligarchy. It's sometimes very hard to stand present to that fact without feeling like your at the receiving end of a water cannon.
Thank you for the article, and for the thoughtful discussion.
Good to see you Ray
Always appreciated your writing at TOP. I have my own checkered history with TOP having lost my TU status (no ability to uprate or downrate comments and diaries) for close to 3 years after I had the audacity to HR a diary that was filled with lies and distortions about Glenn Greenwald. It's been a while so my memory is hazy, but I believe he had angered the horde because he was critical of Obama, so the horde worked hard to make sure that anybody who defended Greenwald was attacked and that diaries critical of Greenwald were mass uprated.
I received a notice that because I was one of a very few to HR the diary and it had been uprated by so many people that meant I was obviously wrong and misusing my HR-ability (despite the fact that I had almost never used my HR's for comments or diaries). I attempted to get a hearing in the help forum and by writing Markos directly. Never heard from Kos or anyone else with authority to do anything or interest in hearing my appeal.
After that I gave up and decided to boycott the site. I'd check in every so often. Finally saw I had my TU status back I think last year sometime and started visiting more regularly thanks to the ramping up of our political revolution and the many excellent diarists who were always found on the Rec list. Like many here, I quit reading the front page eons ago.
Anyway, I was intrigued by your suggestion that the interference with progressives at TOP is organized and of ill intent. While this may be venturing into CT, I'm wondering whether you think it might have anything to do with this (from Sourcewatch - http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Markos_Moulitsas_Z%C3%BAniga):
"In a June 6, 2006 speech to the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco, Zúniga stated that he had spent between six months and two years training at the Central Intelligence Agency in Washington, DC. In this speech Kos said began in 2001, before he started DailyKos,[5] and continued until the beginning of his involvement with the Howard Dean presidential campaign (late 2003/early 2004), which would mean that Zúniga was in training with the US CIA for as much as two years.[6]"
Also, does anyone here know whether Trix is Peter Daou? I found a link which suggests that connection and I see similarities in substance and behavior.
CTPatriot, thank you very much for sharing that.
I wasn't aware about the CIA reference. When one clicks on the link to the Commonwealth audio archive, the speech is available. Either way, great reference information.
www.RayPensador.com
When you boil it all down, the number one step you can take to get out from under the fascist boot of the oligarchy is to stop subjecting yourself to the the U.S. corporate news media. It is a powerful psyops weapon.
Howdy Ray
It has been a long time! I too don't want to dwell too much on TOP as it is now called either, though I still have affection for the name Naranjastan and always will. However, I have a few things to add here as far as history of the site, and larger context goes.
I think the way the software was set up since DK left moveable type and used Scoop is a bit of a Stanford Prison Experiment, intentional or not. People who start out there as reasonable, fine people get into that system and get sucked into some pretty fucked up behavior. The same happened to me and some buddies there way back in 2005, innocuous at first, participating in a Yahoo chat room to shoot the shit. But soon people started using the chats to call people to to DK to gang troll rate and gang disrupt threads of people identified as "trolls." It was all fun and games at first, but before long other people were targeted too, not only newbie trolls, but popular writers too, often women in fact. See histories of Maryscott O'Connor, Marisacat, Cindy Sheehan (being some of the bigger names harassed and booted) ...
Most of the people doing the hounding over the years were Centrists and Party faithful targeting the non-conformists, the lefties, the outside the box people. Some centrists got hounded off too if they were too thin skinned (Bonddad) or just complete fucking assholes (DHinMI -houley hoops). So it is not always the case that only lefties get chased, but I'd bet they are the most common.
Other people had their own groups offsite too, who eventually formed bigger gangs backed by then front pagers. Armando had a whole team that went after people who didn't conform. (Pluto - this was in 2005 and there was a huge blow out about troll hunting later that year that exposed a lot of this activity) Then there were the horrible UGOG people who built a whole site to patrol DK. Front pagers at that time collaborated with those people early on. Then came Facebook and you know the rest.
My point is, this activity has been going on with that site from nearly the beginning. It is not a bug but a feature. Some stuff is surely dictated from Kos and Admins, but a lot of this behavior is part of the very fabric of the "Community" culture. It is highly competitive there, snark is treasured there and snark is often cruel, and people get weird in that atmosphere.
I hope that this site with its toned down anonymous rating system and non-hyper partisan orientation will avoid these flaws in our collective human nature. I'm pretty sure we will all do a better job of it here, having conversations.
Started at TOP in early 2004
I know what you're talking about, but I did my best to side step a lot of it. Not writing diaries also helped keep me out of the bitterest battles. Anonymity facilitates bad behavior that wouldn't happen if real names were attached to diaries and comments. On the other hand some people for personal and/or professional reasons are freer to be brave in what they say and write. For the most part my experience has been good, but the rightward drift has bothered me all along, and now it's gotten f'ing ridiculous. Never paid any attention to anything Kos has had to say. Lightweight IMHO.
Armando and Mike S and their socks
are still at it. One big reason Armando was let back in IMHO...his sock network is so large it is valuable to the powers that be there.
FEEL THE BERN: "But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing." - Thomas Paine
"Here I Stand, I can do no other." - Attributed to Martin Luther, 1521
Really?!
I honestly didn't know that. Wow.
I miss Colorado.
Very well stated,
I could not agree more. Looking forward to more!
C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote
Good to see you again, Ray Pensador!
Also, as the author of several "action diaries", you are very right about the difficulties in organizing actions on that site. More than once, I tried to rally people against some insidious spy-bill or Internet-crippling bill — which you'd think would be Priority One for a prime New-Media political hub — & got mostly crickets (or worse, counsels of despair). Moreover, I could see that it wasn't just me, since other people who posted similar things typically got similar results.
Re: The Site That Shall Not Be Named-
Hello! You know, I just realized that I never signed up at TOS, but signed up immediately here. There was always something just a little too Fascist-ish about it, and I really couldn't put my finger on it, but the Ides of March edict really brought it all crashing into my consciousness. It is far too easy to ascribe various bad behaviors to one's own poor perception, and then strive to understand. It is one of the things the propagandists have been counting on. -That, and the tyranny of the Normals, with their Twitter and FB mobs, both left and right. Ray, I look forward to reading your breakdown of the methods used to keep us roiling in anger rather than active and engaged.
One other thing. Words matter, and I'm getting really sick of CT. It has become a convenient shorthand for the ad-hominem "you're crazy, and so we need not consider anything you say." Many things that concern me are written off by the establishment and the Normals as CT. Yet, their attempts to "debunk" are usually grounded in comfy fictions, ignorance, and a basically religious adherence to "what everybody knows". Scientific inquiry, Reason, and facts need not apply. It doesn't surprise me that TOS used it as a cudgel against the "heretics" of all stripes. They wanted orthodoxy, not thought. -But as I've been saying for years now, being branded a Conspiracy Theorist doesn't mean there's no Conspiracy, or that the Theory is wrong.
And it feels good to write that without concern for being instantly shouted down. I sense that I could set up a soap box here without some establishment thug kicking it out from under me. Cheers, y'all!
"Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."
- John Maynard Keynes
That's called gaslighting
That thing where they call you crazy because they want to shut you up. It's a form of psychological warfare and the point is to undermine your self-confidence. Comes from a movie called "Gaslight." Important concept.
Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.
I like the bird Avatar
I see the bird then your name and I think miep.. miep miep.. miep.
I don't know why? Is that odd?
With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU
Nah people been doing that since forever
The bird is an image from The Naturalist's Library, a circa 1833 publication by some rich guy named Jardine, who got all these naturalists to make engravings and write up what was believed about different animals and then some people to color in all the plates by hand. There are a lot of different volumes. Very collectible.
I figured I'd go with the bird motif since I had that handy, what with Sanders.
Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.
or "crazy-making"
in the psyche world.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
"Crazy-making"
Or mindfucking. Gaslighting is specifically about encouraging you to mistrust your perceptions in order to carry on covert unethical activity, but they are all in the same family.
Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.
Evidence To Support Ray
I'm just now reading your excellent blog. I was silenced at Dailykos today. Here are the two diaries I published today --- both gang-censored.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/03/27/1506917/-The-Billionaires-Poste...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/03/28/1507000/-America-s-Reigning-Oli...
Ajaradom, I can see you were immediately hit with
HRs and put on timeout. Yes, you pushed the envelope by so clearly pointing out the true nature of HRC, the candidate. But in reality, any diarist whose work exposes the corruption of the system will end up getting the same treatment there. Thanks for sharing this. BTW, if you don't want to get banned there you better lay low. Of course, my own personal opinion is that the site is toxic, not only for progressives but any thinking, rational person interested in the truth.
www.RayPensador.com
When you boil it all down, the number one step you can take to get out from under the fascist boot of the oligarchy is to stop subjecting yourself to the the U.S. corporate news media. It is a powerful psyops weapon.
And have you noticed...
the sheer volume of front-page stories on the Website That Shall Not Be Named that are about the GOP horror du jour rather than the real story on the Democratic side, the energy of the Sanders campaign and the reasons for it. If I wanted to read that much about Trump, Cruz, and the GOP I'd go to Breitbart or wherever those people hang out. But then, I guess if I were a neoliberal site masquerading as a progressive one, I'd be trying to strike terror into readers so that they'd choose the "safe" D candidate.
"Dark and difficult times lie ahead. Soon we must all face the choice between what is right and what is easy." --Albus Dumbledore
Hello Ray
I enjoyed watching your commenting style evolve toward the end of your stay there. You asked genuine questions of the people who disrupted your diaries, giving them the opportunity to have real interactions and transcend their conditioning. I really appreciated that, as it was a skill I was attempting to develop myself when dealing with people who were "not quite there yet" in the real world.
Of course, DKos is not the real world and filled with many people who are not the "simple concerned liberals" they claim to be. Several of the Orange sock puppets called me a Pensadorean sock puppet as a matter of fact. You definitely pissed off the right people!
It's good to read from you again.
Fuck Trump
Fuck Hillary
Fuck the whole duopoly!
Thanks chipmo. That's a twist. So they were calling you...
a "Pensadorean sock puppet"? I wonder how the "automated persona" software came up with that on its own! Just kidding. On a more serious note, having checked out the site recently I'm truly horrified at the damage it does to people, at a psychological/cognitive level.
I have no doubt that within the mix of run-of-the-mill trolls, and true believers, there is something going on there very strange, professional-level cognitive infiltration.
I found this video with audio of Markos talking about how wonderful the CIA is:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK6CinsGYC0 width:400 height:300]
www.RayPensador.com
When you boil it all down, the number one step you can take to get out from under the fascist boot of the oligarchy is to stop subjecting yourself to the the U.S. corporate news media. It is a powerful psyops weapon.
Ugh
Why did I ever go there.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
I think we liked the IDEA of Dailykos...
better than what it was.
Reminds me of our political parties in too many ways.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
PCI APO
Probable CIA Psyops Operative.
Stable world, 'other ways'.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean DKos isn't a psyops operation.
Just saying.
I'm glad to see others are taking a look at this. I've felt I was alone on this since 2012 when I first heard this interview.
Please keep in mind that all CT is CT, until it isn't (Cointellpro, Greenwalds revelations, and many many other examples).
Markos is THE PCIAPO in the liberal blogosphere.
With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU
QED
OK, so I was disenchanted with TOP but hadn't realised that there was an actual strategy to shut down dissent. I hadn't spent much time there for the last few years before this primary season and the Hillbot vs Sanderista squabbling, while annoying, seemed in line with the usual primary partisanship.
After reading this diary and the comments, I went over and read the comments on bobswern's story about the LA Times article on HRC's emails/private server investigation (please don't make me go back there to get the link). Wow! I read the comments in a whole new light. The folks trying to shut down discussion of this issue will resort to anything -- "nothing to see here" "you're threatening me" "you Bernie partisans can't resist flinging mud at Hillary" "it's the Repub moles that PBO didn't root out of the FBI" flagging, personal insults, and so on.
Also, "she made a poor choice at the time but didn't know that any of the documents were classified."
Really sickening: a total unwillingness to look at the issue objectively and consider that there was any wrong-doing by one of the most powerful government officials.
Ray, Ray - so glad that you wrote. Tried to get in touch.
Ray,
I appreciated your writing on DK and did a little push back on the trolls
I tried to get in touch with you but with no reply
I was worried that you were not well
But here you are!
Thanks so much for your analysis.
I wrote few stories/ diaries/ etc
The trolls don't pick on me much
And there is some value there
But, I agree with your point that the site is riding the wave of the democratic party, which means down the drain
and your comments on the trolls are appreciated. I blew them off and didn't take the time
but I have had the sense for years that they are being paid
or they are just stupid
but for sure they are dissrupters
and they DO NOT WANT people like us on that site
ironically I made the comment a few weeks back that Bernie movement has saved Dailykos
because of all the energy - what would it be like if it was Hillary all the time????
but they are cracking down and running people out
and like the democratic faction, they could well go down the drain
when puddytat has to watch her words, it has gone over the edge
again, so good to see you back and that you seem alive and well!!!
Good to see you here, Don Midwest.
"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey
Years Ago...
...when Bush was president...about to start the invasion of Iraq, I remember several groups trying to organize mass protests. I also remember that the site you speak of was a big damper on that attempt...claiming in subtle and not so subtle ways that protesting in the streets was passe, a hippy thing and out of fashion, not effective anymore, kind of silly, etc. I was so horrified by what was happening in our government, I couldn't see any way forward except to get into the streets. That site was so discouraging on this topic, it made the fight seem like an exercise in futility. I mean, why spend time and money to travel to another place only to stand in the street with a few people and look stupid and irrelevant? It was very effective. Now, after reading your thoughts, I can see that that had to have been a cog in the wheel of intention to discourage us all. I need time to process this. Is there no end to the depth and the levels of deceit?
Hello all!
I just wanted to comment in this post because, first, I wasn't planning on joining just lurking here considering the experience at GOS. I lurked there a long time and then finally joined. I never posted a diary but did rec and comment. I am so glad to have been directed to this site and able to read Ray's post. It inspired me to join to say AWESOME work Ray. I have not intentionally gone back to GOS since the edict. I have clicked on links to GOS (dammit) but I am going to try and not even do that. I do not want to give that asshole my eyeballs! I really like the most important rule of this site--don't be a dick! I look forward to doing much reading here. Thank you to all doing the work it is much appreciated.
O.k. When is the next meeting for the revolution?
-FuturePassed on Sunday, November 25, 2018 10:22 p.m.
Welcome, WIProgressive!
It's a much better atmosphere here. We're all breathing again.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Ray - great to see you are alive and well
I was away and saw your story and wrote a comment. It looks like my comment was not posted.
I am SO SO glad to see that you are alive and well.
I am in the Team Bernie group at dailykos and see that Tasini, the author of the book on Bernie, was punished and now "unpunished"
Also today greywolf359 who was punished for writing a satire on Queen Hillary is back
And, from my view, Bernie has turned the tide already as is seen by the diaries by people who are saying F**k you to the owner of that site and his democratic funded trolls
Hey Ray...
...if I may call you that.
Until recently I was a frequenter of the Site That Shall Not Be Named; It wasn't until the ides of march announcement (et tu, Markos?) that I realized many of the writers I used to enjoy reading hadn't just had their lives sucked up by other things, but had either left... or shown the door.
I remember your byline well. I'm fairly certain no small number of recs were sent your way by a tap of my finger. And thanks to that rather oddly timed pronouncement of doom to any who would dare suggest that Hillary sucked as a candidate, I've found out where all y'all went.
I'm afraid your assessment is dead on. The constant trolling is getting extreme, and the sock puppetry even more blatant; While not a forensic linguist, I can see patterns in punctuation and speech like some people see facial scars and cheekbones. As you noted, even when detected it seemed that (at most) such puppets/trolls received a smack on the wrist with a goose down feather while those of us speaking our minds, regardless of how politely we disagreed, were timed out or banned outright.
What's funny is how this is not a new pattern. I've been on BBSes, moderated usenet groups, forums, blogs, mailing lists, and so on, both as a user AND a moderator/admin, and that pattern seems to repeat. Sometimes it IS collusion, other's it's just the way of trolls who smell blood in the water and a moderator that "blinks" at all the right times. Much like fights on the field in the NFL; It's usually not the person throwing the punch that gets ejected, it's the player defending themselves (or the players who jump in to defend the attacked) who are penalized.
It's the life cycle of any forum, really. And the best move anyone can make is "onward" to the next thing.
Anyway, thanks again for all the articles, past and future!
Just another refugee from the Daily Chaos.
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