And the BS begins
CBS this morning reports the U.S. government is confident the Ukraine airliner that crashed after takeoff in Iran was shot down by possibly two surface to air missiles.
Government sources indicate satellite surveillance shows the aircraft was targeted shortly after takeoff, but no visual confirmation from anyone on the ground was reported.
Cell phone video shows the plane traveling for at least 20 seconds across the sky trailing a small flame before crashing, creating a major fireball.
The flight was delayed for over a hour due to the Iranian air campaign in retaliation for the ambush and assassination of Quds General Soleimani.
There was an estimated 84 Iranian passengers on board and a number of Canadian students, along with some Ukrainian nationals.
The black box (flight recorder) was recovered by Iranian authorities and held for inspection in the presence of neutral third parties.
Comments
Well, there's hope at least in your last sentence.
Harder for the US to spin the propaganda without access to the black boxes.
(Not that they won't do it anyway. These psychopaths don't care).
Yes, even harder to dispute
is no witnesses on the ground have come forth to confirm TWO missiles being launched.
The last 20 seconds or so of it's flight was caught on cel phone video showing it had just left the ground, perhaps in the air for as little as 40 seconds maximum. It must be remembered takeoff speed is estimated to be 200 MPH and it only climbed to 5000 ft. It had to be exceeding 300 MPH just before the engine failure/ missile strike and still in visual contact with the airport tower.
Near impossible that no one saw two surface to air missiles.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
Here is the video
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Thanks, Snoop
Your vid shows 34 seconds of flight. The person taking that vid must have seen the flaming engine seconds before that in order to turn his camera on.
Inconceivable he did not see at least missile debri falling from the sky after impact, let alone a couple of loud bangs.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
Iran responds to the news
‘Illogical rumors’: Iran responds to US media reports that Ukrainian Boeing was hit by missile over Tehran
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
The turn was right to the north
Where the mountains are. Pilots have discussed this on PPRUNE. You would turn south to return the airport if the pilots had control of the plane.
I'm looking at Google Maps,
, terrain mode, and the mountains are far enough to the north that I would have no hesitation in turning right. The airport is southwest of the city, and there is plenty of room to turn right, enter a right downwind to land on the same runway they took off from, without overflying the city, and nowhere near the mountains.
There are a Whole Lot of PPrunes that are not who they say they are.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Wouldn't it be easier to turn to the right
if you have lost the right engine?
It would...but it is also harder to roll out of the turn.
. It's looking more and more like perhaps they had no choice.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
@Bisbonian Well actually
Well actually some pilots who are very familiar with both airports there and have flown in and out of them many times disagree. And of course if you lost an engine would you want to come right back over the city or would you want to go south of it?
And I have never been there, so don't have as much to go on.
. But the SID makes a slight right turn to the right, and the plane had started that turn before it was hit. After being hit with a missile, I would be very inclined to keep the turn going in that direction, and try to make the airport...if I had a choice. The debris field is in a suburban area, still SE of the city proper.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
"No parts of the missile
were found at the scene of the crash."
Missile debri would be found underneath the point of missile impact, not the crash site.
So, somewhere between the end of the runway and the aircrafts position some 34 seconds before the crash site would evidence, if any, be found.
This search area can be whittled down by assuming it was still in clear visual contact from the airtower for a number of seconds after liftoff and a number of seconds before the cel phone videographer retrieved his camera and began recording.
Taking into consideration the speed of the aircraft this would keep the search area fairly small.
Consider that an enormous amount of debri was recovered from the Challenger disaster spread over four states, finding one piece of missile debri should be easy-peasy.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
A missile seeker head was found,
, near where the impact would have been. I can never get images to work, but here is a link: https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x1200/enx1pljxkaajm... To me, it looks rather 'posed'. The photo was brought to the world's attention by an Iranian ex-pat dissident blogger named Babak Taghvaee. I'm skeptical.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
....
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Thanks,
, My internet is so 'rural' that it often times out while trying to upload an image.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
That looks more like it was PLACED where photographed.
Notice the absolute absence of disturbed soil around it. Reminds me of a certain gas cylinder found lying on a bed in Douma (sp.?)
I do not doubt the possibility that a missile brought down the plane, but attributing a definitive source or agency at this point is highly speculative, at best.
“What the herd hates most is the one who thinks differently; it is not so much the opinion itself, but the audacity of wanting to think for themselves, something that they do not know how to do.”
-Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)
I agree, looks staged.
Without a geotag it could have been taken in Miami.
"Found near where the impact would have been". I gonna presume that was somewhere between the end of the runway and previous to the recording of the video.
The origin of manufactor should be easy enough to determine, assuming tbe Iranian authorities have possession of it.
Or when Fed-x delivers it from Miami.
I too am suspect. It looks in rather pristine condition considering it was blown off the top of a bomb and fell 5-8 thousand feet to the ground.
And not a hint of a cratering impact with the ground.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
I generally spend my spare time filming planes taking off
from Portland International. All day, all night You never know when a plane is going to blow up.
I wonder who was filming the plane blow up. And I wonder how the clip got out of Iran before it was handed to Iranian authorities, as any good citizen would do to help authorities figure out what happened.
And how could the Iranian military not recognize a plane taking off from Tehran's international airport versus, say, a US bomber coming in?
I am more able to imagine a conspiracy than a coincidence.
Enjoy the war, folks.
Now imagine that it was a US psyop false flag, set in motion right after the Soleimani murder. Selling this as some kind of Iranian terror attack would be an easier sale than immediately after Iran attacked those two airbases while assiduously avoiding casualties.
But, but, but the film, you think.
But who authenticated the film, or even the pictures of rocket parts or any of the other evidence suddenly showing up on the internet?
Operation Northwoods was part of our intelligence agencies' bag of tricks for a long, long time. A few changes here and there, but the basic concept shines through. Down an airliner and then blame the enemy.
If the black boxes don't support their narrative
they will simply claim the data was changed by Iran.
Truth has NEVER been a barrier to the US Corporate War Machine and it's sycophants in the media.
How many other passenger planes took off during this time?
If any, why were they allowed to take off?
Nothing in place electronically to identify passenger planes in Iranian defense systems?
Sure, there are many other possibilities about what took place but these are the questions that really need to be answered soon.
Sixteen were scheduled
; in the hour before, the hour including this flight, and the hour after. I have no idea how many went.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Amazing to me how it's not being reported much
I've looked it up too, since I originally posted and again this morning. I still can't find how many others actually took off in adjacent hours. I would hope that none went off for some hours after the plane came down.
There were 27 "movements", taking off or landing,
, from midnight until the crash.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
How many hours is that?
Thanks for the follow up. It blows my mind that there was any airport movement after the missiles were launched towards the US bases in Iraq.
CBS tweet
Seems that people responding to the tweet aren't buying it. If unnamed sources say that there is prooof then lets see it. You know like we never saw Kerry's evidence of Russian insurgents shooting down the Ukrainian plane that seemed to have lots of bullet holes in the cockpit area.
If the US told me the sun was shining I would look out the window before I believed them. Smith-Mundt act that Obama rescinded anyone? Making it legal for the government to blow sh*t out our buttocks.
Newsweek is also reporting this
But who really was responsible?
When you know that Putin and Iran are aligned..... Well alrighty then. Russia did it. Why? Reasons.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
I think you call this
"Jumpin' the shark". Spin control before the black box even gets opened.
Get the narrative going their (hegemon) way.
"A lie will travel around the world before the truth gets its pants on".
Will Rogers? Help, someone.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
But but but
But but but... US officials are confident! And they never lie to us, and even if they did they'd never put innocent women and children at risk, would they?
And Soleimani was planning on an imminent attack on something. It all lines up. It's raining here in Portland again, but I guess I'll go out to the backyard and start digging my fallout shelter.
I think it's ridiculous how we're being lied to
It like they aren't even trying to tell a story that has a lick of truth in them. Trump saying that Qassam was trying to blow up our embassy is beyond the pale.
I am no expert on anything physical about the plane or its aftermath. I too because it was a false flag or a horrible accident.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Another parrot speaks
People is learning:
Eh not so much.
Thanks Dems for making McCarthyism cool again.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Funny how
they can detect two missiles being fired off with a flight path of less than 5000 ft, but they can't detect 20 Houthi drones flying hundreds of miles right under the noses of multible warships, air surveillance, and right by Patriot missile batteries to strike a major oil facility.
In relatively open and flat terrain even.
Phfft! What bullshit.
It takes a special kind of dotard to believe this fantasy.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
Hahaha
Yeah funny that huh?
I posted this older video of Bolton's heinous history of warmongering. Starts out as a Tulsi ad, but that doesn't last long.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs35O_TBbbU]
This covers when Bolton threatened the head of the UN: "We know where your kids are..."
Horrible man that needs to meet the grim reaper. The sooner the better.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
@snoopydawg Punctures in the fuselage
Punctures in the fuselage could be bits of metal from, say an engine disintegrating depending on where on the fuselage the punctures were.
Mostly Iranians and Canadian/Iranians
A plane with that passenger makeup would not seem a prime target for retaliation.
More likely Boeing simply sold the Ukrainians a defective aircraft, or the Ukes didn't bother to maintain it, or both.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
Or a problem was introduced.
The plane was serviced on Monday. The crash was on Wednesday. It's possible a malfunction was introduced during maintenance.
@edg Or a bomb.
Or a bomb.
Yes.
Maybe a bomb onboard with an altimeter fuse
It could have happened when the plane was recently being serviced. The Ukrainian aircraft climbed to an altitude of 8,000 feet when it suddenly stopped communicating.
Another possibility is that the airplane rolled due to a crosswind on the runway just prior to take off and touched an engine to the tarmac, setting it on fire. The engines on the Boing 737 have almost no clearance to the ground, in fact, the cowling is shaped with a flat on the bottom. The airframe and landing gear limit the room under the wing. Not a problem on the first 737 models when it was designed 60 years ago, but it was a small plane with very narrow engines. With each new generation the engines had increased turbofan capability and barely fit under the wing.
Of course I'm just speculating and we have to wait for the experts to evaluate the crash. I think that the Iranians are smart not to let the crash boxes out of their sight. Once that happens the West will then suggest an international investigation team with Iran excluded, and put pressure on the team to blame Russia.
Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.
Yeah,
That is the real problem right there, finding a credible third party to witness the opening of that flight recorder.
Certainly not the Netherlands, they cooked the data from the Malaysian shoot down over the Ukraine and refused to show their method of discovery.
"We don't need no stinkin' proof! Trust us, the Hegemon."
Skirpel, Douma, WMD in Iraq, lone gunman, the USS Maine, the USS Liberty, it never stops.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
@The Wizard Or a bomb set off from
Or a bomb set off from the ground by someone pressing a button. There are all sorts of ways to blow up an airplane.
Stupid prizes for stupid people...
No one knows what goes through a defense computer's brain when it decides to fire. The danger here is letting the god damn thing have complete autonomy to blast something out of the sky. I don't believe the plane was burning from take off to crash as some videos seem to show. If the black box shows that the plane attempted to turn around back to the landing field, I might think otherwise. Looks likely that we will never know as geopolitics take the stage as the main spokesman in this incident. Reports claim no communications from the pilots, scattered debris field and all data transmission stopped simultaneously - boom??
Peace
FN
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
Do you have a link
showing the plane on takeoff?
"the plane was burning from take off to crash as some videos seem to show."
Would surely like to see that. Proof positive of no missile attack.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
The video is vague, snoopydawg has it in his comment
Some are saying that the white light is a fire from the takeoff, looks like standard flight lights to me and then a distinct orange flash towards the end. Not a very good video indeed but the difference in hues is definitely there. https://twitter.com/i/status/1214757061650722821
Peace
FN
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
That video
was the last 34 seconds of flight, after engine malfunction/attack.
The orange burst just before impact with the ground was possibly the engine "detonating" and igniting a wing fueltank.
Somewhere, someone or some business has a video shortly after takeoff.
Lets hope so.
Otherwise, somewhere out there is either missile debri or engine parts.
My money is on engine parts stamped "Boeing Corp."
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
Unconfined
Interesting that someone was filming this at the right time.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Many mainstream and alternative sites are saying
this was confirmed. The NYT of course I don't trust.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Judging by my
Appalachian lightening/thunder distance calculator the videographer was about 7 miles away.
A definitely loud report but no indication of a missile exhaust tail.
The bang could have been the initial engine malfunction.
Also, the US said there were two missile launches and only one report.
Maybe if one was a dud? That would support the pristime looking targeting cone/ warhead supposedly found under the alledged flightpath.
Not sure the black box would show that kind of missile event either.
Thanks for posting that video.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
Heh...good and bad news
But there it is. The first accusation that Russia was involved in it. Of course it has to be a Russian made missile right? Because...oh hell I quit.
But I'm questioning the reporting from everyone. How many days has it been and people think that the investigation is all neatly tied up? BS.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
The Russians sold Tor missiles to Iran, for air defense.
. So, if Iranian air defence forces shot down the airliner, it would have to have been with a Russian made missile.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
We don't know if the plane was brought down
by a TOR missile. The debris could have been planted.
What do you think of the plane being brought down with a Stinger type missile supplied to the MEK by the US or Israel? A civilian aircraft on takeoff is a sitting duck for such a missile. All that would be required would be to set up a firing position on the well known flight path using an ordinary van. Then, as cover, plant and "find" the Russian made TOR missile head (not a uncommon item in ME). It would then be a "twofer".
There's been information that John Bolton had been in contact with the MEK in Alabania where weapons could be supplied in order to frame Iran using a false flag attack.
That's why
, I said "IF Iranian air defence forces shot down the airliner, it would have to have been with a Russian made missile.
...and that's why I said IF, because I am convinced that your scenario is at least a possibility, one that would not surprise me.
I misread your next question, as, "How easy would it be to...", and was going to answer, "easier than tying your shoes." But now that I read it correctly, I will go watch the video.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Here's how easy it would be to take down
a civilian aircraft upon takeoff, especially if you already have advance knowledge of direction and time. Setup, shoot and forget then get bug out in less than 10 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO4URWD6Nps
Yes,
. And every time we give such weapons to "militias" that are temporarily fighting on 'our side', we increase the possibility.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
You can see burning debri coming off
at the 6 to 8 second mark.
Maybe just a tragic mistake after all -- Occam's Razor
Iranian Missile System Shot Down Ukraine Flight, Probably by Mistake, Sources Say
https://www.newsweek.com/iranians-shot-down-ukraine-flight-mistake-sourc...
If you're gonna cite
Occam's Razor, Boeing aircraft have been known to fall out of the sky on a fairly regular basis lately.
Tens of thousands of them have been grounded as unsafe to fly and production has completely halted on the newest ones.
Thanks for playing, though.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
And they have flown hundreds of millions of miles
Without incident. And since there are really only two manufacturers in the world who make most of the commercial aircraft, when there is a commercial aircraft accident, odds are pretty good it is one of the two.
But Boeing's problem is that it merged with MCDonald Douglass and apparently the McDonald Douglass management has taken it over, and that is not a good thing.
Putting a human face on this tragedy
A large wedding party was on that flight with families, students, and small children. Can't imagine the horror. Whatever happened. Whoever is responsible. This is a day of mourning for hundreds of families and friends. My heart goes out to all of them.
https://winnipegsun.com/news/national/canadians-killed-in-iran-plan-cras...
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
A wedding party? A wedding party!
That explains it. It was Obama.
On to Biden since 1973
If it was a missile attack
Why did Boeing stock plummet 13 points in 24 hrs following the crash?
Investors apparently have some kind of insight.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
Because they have Boeing stock,
, none of them have Russian missile stock.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
If you look closely at the
If you look closely at the alleged part of the rocket in photos you can see Putin's fingerprints.
From the Ukraine Press
Members of the Ukrainian state commission investigating the crash of the Ukrainian Boeing 737 near Tehran, who had earlier arrived in Iran and have examined the plane wreckage. The engine malfunction version cannot be confirmed, a Ukrainian journalist Yuriy Butusov said with reference to his source in the team.
"At present, our group has arrived at the site where the fragments of the aircraft are being transported. It is an open area where everything found in the area is being taken.
"Currently, I am observing both aircraft engines – and I don't see any traces of fire on them. Fragments of the right wing were brought here, too – there are also no traces of fire on them, so the version of engine malfunction, engine explosion, can't be confirmed at the moment. The plane was on fire, but the version of engine malfunction is not being confirmed," the source said.
Read more on UNIAN: https://www.unian.info/world/10823759-ps752-crash-ukrainian-experts-exam...
Trudeau says plane was shot down
Flight altitude data
Flight Path
Flight Path till Communication was lost
Will some please admit
that we know nothing of what actually happened?
The theories are just that currently. Anything that anybody says at this point is moot.
I have no game in the incident and it's likely that nobody here does but the speculation is just that.
Speculation.
Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.
Video of plane exploding in NYT this morning
Here.
I am no expert. They are saying it was an Iranian missile.
Well OF COURSE they're saying that
The war whores want their war with Iran and will spread any lie that makes it more probable.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Maybe Trump shortcircuited the war whores
Maybe he unwittingly or even not so stupidly found a way to shut them up at least for the most immediate future running up to the election.
I've always been mindful of the old variously stated refrain, "History is a tangle of unintended consequences."
Apparently, there are now going to be talks between the US and Iran.
That kind of thing worked pretty well for Nixon's re-election bid.
But whatever:
This entire argument is mute
American military wants to maintain their gravy train.
Best way to do it is by provoking war.
Has nothing to do with facts or fallacies.
MIC needs conflict to justify their budgets.
What can we do to stop this insanity?
Throw gravel in the gears.
Argue as you might.
You can do something.
Shut it down state by state.
Contractor by sub-contractor.
NOT IN OUR NAME!
Just added a new post
with my very own speculations. It was too long to add here as a comment, but I wonder what people's take on it is.
It is a modified post from WotB's of yesterday. Added a few additional observations, including from my favorite go-to site - Moon of Alabama.
Can't find it, Sanderista2
Where is it?
I couldn't find it searching WotB, either.
More publishing pains
I think I failed to properly publish it from the draft I had. Did now (or I think I did). Here is also the link from WotB (it's way down now since yesterday. As I said, new polls....):
https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/emg4rv/the_only_question_...