So how did the first day of the impeachment circus go?
lol..if that doesn't clear things up for ya... then there is Adam Schiff denying that he knows who the whistleblower is.
Rep. @Jim_Jordan rips @RepAdamSchiff for coordinating with the whistleblower.
Schiff claims he "does not know the identity of the whistleblower." pic.twitter.com/HdDQGmHwv8
— Daily Caller (@DailyCaller) November 13, 2019
The republican's response?
Rep. Elise Stefanik: This was an abject failure for the Democrats and Adam Schiff. pic.twitter.com/AJtJ7J6x7g
— The Daily Wire (@realDailyWire) November 13, 2019
Zelensky has stated that he did not know that the military aid had been held up so how could there be quid pro quid or bribery as Schiff has amended the impeachment charges to? I don't remember congress saying anything when Obama refused to let them go to Ukraine because he was afraid of ramping up tensions with Russia. How can withholding the javelin weapons harm our national security?
The whole Ukraine debacle started when Obama overthrew Ukraine's president because he was friendly with Russia.
US Staged a Coup in Ukraine - Here's Why and How
.....Conclusion
That's the basic truth about the coup in Ukraine, and it hasn't benefited anyone other than the warmongers. Ukraine is split in two and stuck in a frozen civil war; its debt-to-GDP ratio has doubled since the US-backed coup; pensions, social services and minimum wages ($140 a month) have been slashed and the people are still ruled by corrupt oligarchs. The US regime change ops also ignited a chain reaction of needless hostility, hysterical Russophobia and crippling sanctions. The EU has lost more than $100 billion in trade with Russia in the last four years; and the US has pushed Russia deep into China's orbit. Just like the neocon adventures in Iraq and Syria, the meddling in Ukraine will go down as another disastrous and reckless chapter in the sordid history of US foreign policy.
There are no repercussions for destabilizing country after country and causing unimaginable suffering and death. Or any of the other heinous things Trump is doing. But try to find out who was involved in trying to overthrow your presidency and look into corruption of the previous administration and bam! you're being impeached. But when your opponents don't have a solid case against you then you can sit back and watch them make fools of themselves. And laugh. Cuz what else can you do?
Trump is a horrible, corrupt and arrogant asshole who is doing lots of damage to us and the country and there are plenty of legitimate reasons to impeach him. But of course congress can't do it for those reasons or they'd have to charge many others for the same thing. So instead we get kabuki impeachment hearings.
Comments
At least kabuki
is an art form with a long and respected tradition. What the Democrats are doing is what my mother would call showing their asses in public. Honestly, it's like they're trying to look incompetent and petty.
The smaller the mind the greater the conceit. --Aesop
More Evidence for the Article V Strategy.
Democrats only have to lose a few more State Houses and it's a Brave New World.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
the cold civil war might well become hot,
regardless of which political philosophy were to dominate at such a convention.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
I See This Happening So Clearly. It's Kind of Scary, But I'm
pretty much OK with our unreality these days, so it's not really affecting me as it would have a few years ago...
I can see the mighty corporate Wurlitzer lining us up and tuning us for battle - again quite clearly. It's bound to go hot in the near future, IMO, as the corporate media is almost textbook stochastic terrorism. It's rather naked if you step outside of our cultural programming and blind trust in authority.
I'm squarely outside the zeitgeist, but I feel rather helpless to stop or slow it because it requires a serious change in mindset. And who am I to disagree with influential celebrities, billionaires, and political leaders? I just have to be a Russian Bot, A Trumpy, or a cultural marxist because I'm not playing the role assigned to me by central casting and the corporate media.
It's strange, for sure. I'm starting to realize how George Carlin could be that dispassionate observer in the face of the slow motion trainwreck of social collapse. I'm OK to just observe and accept our manufactured unreality and watch the passion play take place. That said, I'm trying to keep my eyes open for a place to throw my weight on the scales; I'm just not holding my breath.
Peace,
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
So how is this playing on ToP?
Header:
A tweet from it..
LMAO! "If Zelensky had...." well Adam if doesn't count here because we're dealing with what did happen not what if happened.
This is supposed to be a gotcha moment and it is big.
No it's not because no one in Ukraine was made to have said anything. This is the whole reason why impeachment is going to fail. Zelensky never said that he would investigate ByeDone so he could get the aid. It's weird how two people can hear something and take two opposing views on what they heard. And why is military aid to a foreign country a national security concern for the USA? Bueller?
Disagree.
Assuming, arguendo Trump asked for the investigation, and leveraged aid against it, it doesn't matter what Zelensky did or felt. Putting aside the fact that it would be horrible politically if Zelensky admitted to feeling pressured because it would make him look weak at home, and hurt his chances of getting Trump's help, Trump attempting to extort a foreign government into helping your campaign does not stop being a crime because the attempt did not succeed.
Granted, there would have been additional problems had Zelensky ordered the investigation. There would almost certainly been a subsequent attempt to cover up the reason was that Trump suddenly decided that unsupported theories that Biden was trying to punish a prosecutor for a investigating a company that his son later came to work for, even though the investigation was closed before his son started.
Asking Ukraine to dig up dirt on a political opponent or to exonerate Russia from the email hacks would be an abuse of power in and of itself. Threatening to delay or hold aid to the Ukraine just makes that abuse more flagrant.
I appreciate your reasoned contributions here
,
and I hope you continue. What I take from what you've said is that Trump's phone conversation should be seen as part of a larger motivation, regardless of President Zelenskiy's understanding of it. As a person who trusted and respected Joe Biden until very recently, I am doing the same thing with Biden. I see the appointment of Cofer Black, a leading private mercenary profiteer, to the board of Burisma as meaningful. It doesn't get more hideous than Cofer Black as to war machine operations. Therefore, along with the Obama/Clinton Global Shale Initiative plugging American taxpayers' money into international fracking on the part of energy conglomerates, I see the U.S. takeover of Ukraine in the light of a clear fascist war on the people of Ukraine, east and west, for the purpose of enriching a bunch of sleazoid private killers.
SMH
Torture, kidnapping, illegal wars, catastrophic energy policy, destruction of other people's countries, endemic election fraud in one's own--and the big "crime" is Trump asking a foreign politician to look into some of Trump's political enemies.
If it's a crime, are we going to bust Hillary's friends for getting Russians to supply info for the Steele dossier? Or is that different?
I almost don't give a shit anymore if politicians do shitty things to one another, but assuming we care what Donald Trump does to Joe Biden, or what Hillary Clinton does to Donald Trump, is it better to ask the CIA to look into your political enemies? Why? Because they're "American?" What about if the CIA looks into politicians on their own? Is that better than what Trump said on the phone, or worse?
But more to the point, how does anybody have any outrage left over for this pathetic soap opera?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I missed this earlier
Russia did not hack the DNC computers and give them to Wikileaks. There has been no evidence shown that proves that they did. Nor did Mueller show any in his report. The FBI never looked at the computers and only relied on an unfinished draft statement by CrowdStrike that the DNC hired.
Assange has said that the information he released did not come from Russia. Again this site has been covering the numerous spider legs of Russia Gate and that too can be found if you search for it.
@snoopydawg ToP? I note that the
ToP? I note that the dailykos is referred to that here.
Is that "the Other page" or "the Oligarchy's page?"
GOS. Great Orange Satan
" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "
“The other place.”
Analogous to how the people at JackPine Radicals refer to the site Democratic Underground as SV, for “Site Voldemort.” JackPine Radicals started out as a lifeboat or refuge for exiles from DU.
Edited to add an actual example:
https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/oppose-the-military-coup-in-bo...
TOP, as used on this site, means
“The other place” or “that other place” — a reference to
VoldemortDaily Kos. They who shall not be named.I personally hate it with a passion. TOP implies best, which daily kos certainly isn’t. And it’s obfuscating insider lingo, confusing to anyone not “in the club” — something I’d think we would want to avoid.
I see no reason to avoid naming dKos, if for some reason I find a need to talk about it. I’ve asked and begged people here to stop using this annoying acronym. You can see how effective that has been. It will never die. LOL.
@CS in AZ I agree, it has bad
I agree, it has bad optics. It gives too much power to DKOS, makes it seem like they occupy more head space here than they do to casual observers. The Voldemort comparison is apt in that sense.
I have missed your pleas
Sorry about that. From now on I will use DK. Do you have a preference on kids or inmates as Anja calls them?
LOL - snoooydawg, you always make me smile
I gave up on my pleas long ago. Not your problem! But if you are asking my preference, I’ll just say that I prefer, um, regular adult-type conversation, for the most part. Not a fan of name calling.
I don’t frequent DKos anymore myself, but I don’t think everyone there is a child, and they are definitely not inmates. No locked doors, anyone can leave whenever they want. So my answer is, neither.
I’ve used the word denizens, which works for me:
Again for me personally I just don’t care enough about the denizens of DKos to spend much time or energy on what they are saying. If I wanted to know that, I’d still visit there.
Thank you for asking though! Appreciated.
Well, I ain't gonna spend all the keystrokes to type out
"Daily Kos" every time, so I hope "DK" is good enough!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Including the usage “Don’t be a D**K” … ? ;-) n/t
Nice one. :-)
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
How is Biden's action different?
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXA--dj2-CY]
Another mass distraction from the dimwits. Instead of pushing policy to improve peoples lives and defeat Trump at the ballot box, they impeach and unite the Trumpateers.
TPTB (including the DNC oligarchs) want Trumpolini back for another 4 years...at least that will be the outcome of this farce.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
How is Biden different?
He actually did what Trump probably did. He strong armed a Nazi to not investigate HIM. Trump "asked" a peace and anti corruption president to investigate a crime the perpetrator has confessed - bragged - to, and if he found something to "please" tell him.
On to Biden since 1973
@Lookout
The difference is in Biden's case, he was defending the United States interest (rooting out corruption) with both international and bipartisan domestic support. There was a mountain of evidence the Prosecutor was corrupt.
Trump, in relative secret asked for an investigation into a political opponent, despite showing no interest in it until Biden entered the race. While Biden's son getting a ridiculously well paying job with the company that had recently been investigated is skeazy and problematic. there was no indication that Hunter Biden broke any laws.
Don't get me wrong. I am not a Biden fan, but it is a false equivalence.
Democrats Were Neck Deep In the Ukranian Coup, and
they were neck deep in cash and kickbacks to boot. The Bidens are grifters, just like Drumpf, only more refined.
They were rooting out corruption with international support like Bush and Obama were fighting terror.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
@Vex @Vex
" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "
I'm with you on that
I view vex's comment as either parody or snark. Hopefully he does not believe that Burisma or Vlochevsky or Moselievich (sp) are pure as the driven snow.
Dreumpf is no saint; in fact he is a con man. But, dear vex, where is all the evidence of Drumpf's alleged crimes which Herr Müller and 16 angry Demorats couldn't find? Please, do not use an Adam Schiff defense in responding.
P.S. Innocence is presumed. Guilt must be proven.
@Alligator Ed Burisima's
Burisima's corruption is without question. But despite his claims, Victor Shokin was complicit in that corruption.
Shokin's claims that he was fired for investigating Burisma against Poroshenko's wishes is laughable. You don't find it odd that during Shokins tenure as prosecutor not one oligarch, or politician was convicted? That his office was suddenly investigating Zlochevsky and Burisma, after they hindered the British investigation into Zlochevsky?
...
it's morning. deleted
@snoopydawg huh?
huh?
That prosecutor wasn't
the corrupt one. There is a sworn statement he gave laying out the particulars. Sure Biden was "protecting US interests" and just what are those interests?
Never mind, don't look behind the curtain, the US is of course the clean one here and ONLY Trump is corrupt. s/
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
The argument that Trump was coercing Ukraine to investigate
Biden doesn't actually make sense!!! What in hell could the investigation turn up?? Hunter Biden was hardly in Ukraine at all. I think he flew in with daddy on Airforce 2 once. Maybe he flew in a couple of times and snorted some blow with his partners, who knows. The point is that he could not have participated in the sort of day to day corruption that might be turned up by an investigation in Ukraine. He didn't speak the language and he didn't know sh-t about Ukraine or natural gas. The corruption was already part of the public record. Hunter being paid $50,000 plus for nothing except being Joe B.'s son and daddy bragging about about firing the prosecutor at the Council on Foreign Relations forum.
@Roy Blakeley The mere fact of an
The mere fact of an investigation would tarnish Biden long enough for the election.
Politically an active investigation has more heft. As for the 50K a month, sadly the voters tend to be ok with someone taking as much money as they can get. Hell, Politicians who are shown to be tax evaders through loopholes are deemed smart for not paying as little as possible. The Wire nailed this point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xub8nqHVZ1g
While the 50K a month should highlight the sytemic flaws in the system narrative quickly becomes that Hunter was smart for taking such a ridiculously sweet deal, leveraging power he did not actually possess. Apologists will point to the fact that Boards of companies are filled with unqualified relatives of people in power.
Also it is hard for Trump to pull that card given his own children.
I agree it doesn't make sense for Trump to get Ukraine involved, but mainly because if Biden is the nominee, Trump is better served letting him shoot himself in the foot. Trump is not known for his good ideas.
This is especially true if (fingers crossed) Biden is not the nominee.
I think trump should be impeached and removed from office for any number of issues, soliciting aid from Ukraine included, though not the most pressing.
That said, I think the Democrats were fools to pursue it, because:
A) if they impeach the Senate will keep him safe and it turn into a victory and a talking point for Trump about the money wasted, etc. Not to mention the fact that it helps the GOP keep the Senate in 2020, when at risks GOP Senators show their feigned "Country-Over-Party" credentials to by casting a meaningless vote to remove him.
B) If they don't impeach they look weak and wasteful of time and money.
C) In the Unlikely event they remove Trump. His replacement will only be harder to beat, by playing both sides. the Trump loyalist will see it as revenge and the moderates who disliked trump will find the replacement (pick an interchangeable white guy Pence? Romney?) more palatable.
Impeachment is a Kobayashi Maru of the Democrats own making.
Biden is pretty tarnished anyway
with his verbal diarrhea at the Council on Foreign relations and his fetish about little girls' hair (both readily available on YouTube). What this impeachment is about is the fact that Barr and Durham were getting close to uncovering the role of Brennan, Clapper and others in interfering in the 2016 Presidential election. The security establishment rolled out its "whistleblower" and called in its markers with Schiff, Pelosi and other Democrats closely tied to the security establishment to impeach Trump to distract from and traduce the Barr-Durham investigation. Clapper has already signaled that he knows he is under criminal investigation and has been previewing his defense. Trump could certainly be impeached for violations of the emoluments clause and probably for obstruction of justice, but the Democratic establishment ignored these transgressions. You are right that this will be detrimental to the Democratic Party, but the Democratic leadership often does not act in the best interest of the party.
Asking other governments for favors is the essence of diplomacy
The argument that requesting aid for help with a number of potential criminal matters rises to the severity of High Crimes and Misdemeanors? Ridiculous. How would negotiations with foreign countries proceed on a practical, real-world level if secrecy were never afforded? Impeachment Trump if one must but do so on a legitimate cause of action. The military aid holdup allegation has been disproven so often, why repeat it here again? And so what if there was a quid pro quo. If that "quo" benefited the U.S. government, in the opinion of the elected leader, where does this become a crime? Does the indirect benefit of winning a legal contest against an opponent vitiate the fact the wrong-doing most certainly occurred (such as the recent disclosure of $3.2M sent to Seneca Bohai LLC while Hunter Biden was on the board).
Those supporting impeachment over Ukrainegate are more gullible than the millions who swallowed Russiagate. There unfortunately too many believers in "any blue will do". The Dem party is flailing and failing.
Please.
"There was a mountain of evidence the Prosecutor was corrupt."
Not one little pebble of which anyone can cite, although one can parrot propaganda. In the real world said prosecutor had already a full scale investigation in place and had already pressed legal remedies.
Orwell: Where's the omelette?
Trump is also looking into Ukraine's role in helping Hillary
get political dirt on Trump's campaign and especially Manafort. He has every right to look to see what was done that tried to derail his win and then his presidency. We have written numerous essays here covering this scandal and if you are interested you can search the site by putting Ukraine in the search bar. Here is an article on how the democrats were involved in Ukraine.
There have been numerous articles stating that the Ukraine prosecutor was forced out of office by joe Biden and he did that to stop their investigation into Burisma. The U.K. also withheld funds because of the corruption.
The Plundering of Ukraine by Corrupt American Democrats
Moon of Alabama had an excellent review of what Biden did in Ukraine about a week ago and I think you can see that what he did was wrong even if he said he had Obama's blessing to do it.
@Lookout
The difference is in Biden's case, he was defending the United States interest (rooting out corruption) with both international and bipartisan domestic support. There was a mountain of evidence the Prosecutor was corrupt.
Trump, in relative secret asked for an investigation into a political opponent, despite showing no interest in it until Biden entered the race. While Biden's son getting a ridiculously well paying job with the company that had recently been investigated is skeazy and problematic. there was no indication that Hunter Biden broke any laws.
Don't get me wrong. I am not a Biden fan, but it is a false equivalence.
Not a Biden fan, huh?
Hey, it's okay to be an acolyte of China Joe, gaffe-meister extraordinary. Shokin guilty of corruption? Funny, Zelensky's anti-corruption department has not produced evidence thereof. Joe Biden rooting out corruption. Joe Biden has the finer instincts of a porcine, rooting around into all sorts of things, like the curls of young girls. If there's a country where he had leverage, money just seemed to follow JoJo's family. Ukraine--check! China--check! Romania--check!
Giving the party-line peddled by the DNC as legitimate, suggests that some readers here need a little firmer grounding into Spygate. I also wonder if the commenter has views about Tulsi Gabbard and/or Jill Stein as being Russian agents.
@lizzyh7 Burisma is absolutely
Burisma is absolutely corrupt.
Shokin was soft on corruption (look into the diamond prosecutors, for example). when people in his office pursued cases, he was quick to fire them with no real explanation.
Hell. look at the case Burisma and Mykola Zlochevsky. The company and its owner were clearly engaged in corrupt practices. When British fraud investigators froze Zlochevsky's London-based accounts, Shokin's office refused to provide documents, They sent instead sent letter's saying there was no case against Zlochevsky. Ultimately Britain had to unfreeze the accounts.
Shokin needed to go. Biden's sin was not the effort to fire him, it was that he endangered that effort by not recusing himself.
As for Stein and Gabbard. No, I do not believe they are Russian Agents.
Shokin was no gem for sure
But he was hot on the trail of Zlochevsky and silent partner(s) because Poroshenko and Shokin were long-time allies. Zlochevsky and Poroshenko dislike each other, so a personal motive is involved as well. Poroshenko chose a billion bucks over his buddy Shokin, who, although for impure reasons, was investigating Burisma et. al.
Defending the United States' interests
he was defending the United States interest (rooting out corruption) with both international and bipartisan domestic support.
In other words, Biden is on the right team. The pro-U.S. team. In other words, those protecting the interests of the factions currently running the U.S. In still other words, protecting the interests of energy barons, weaponsmakers, financiers, and the CIA. And their political middle managers.
The right team wants certain politicians in power and certain policies in place in Ukraine. The right team--or I guess I should call them the good guys, because using the abbreviation "RT" might be confusing--the good guys appreciate Biden threatening to withhold aid at that point. The good guys don't like Trump threatening to withhold aid if the Ukrainian president doesn't investigate Biden.
The very notion that what we're defending is Ukraine's right to receive military aid from the United States as per agreement is disgusting. Oh, wait--no, it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with preserving the separation of powers, making sure that the Executive doesn't step on the Legislative's toes. Right? Because I know that matters so much to us. After all, when Bush started throwing around Executive Orders and Presidential memos, to walk around, or more accurately, walk through Congress, impeachment proceedings began immediately.
Didn't they?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Well said
It's especially fun to see it being okay that the CIA is trying to take Trump down. Rah rah CIA! Go team blue. The CIA has no business being involved in our elections, but try telling others that they were during the creation of Russia Gate.
Hey! A great question that I missed
that should have been in my list of questions!
And a great point.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Doomed to Failure ...
If Taylor and Kent were supposed to be the "star" witness, this impeachment effort seems doomed to fail. I literally fell asleep during Taylor's testimony, especially when he was asked to speculate on what was meant on a phone call he didn't listen to, what President Trump (whom he never had direct contact with) meant, hearsay after hearsay. Then when the Rs starting asking questions, "Shifty Schiff" (sorry, can't help it since the moniker appears to be accurate) tried to change the rules by interrupting to caution the witness "not to assume the facts in the question as true" when the pre-agreed rules were no objections as under the Fed. Rules of Evidence. Rs scored the best points when they showed: (1) Zelenskiy was unaware of the hold on the Ukraine aid at the time of the phone call; (2) Zelesnkiy's repeated statements there was no pressure; and (3) the Ukrainians never opened the requested investigations, and the aid was eventually given. No harm, no foul.
The more the Dems go after this, it's bound to hurt Biden (which is probably why someone like Bloomberg wants to jump into the race) and I don't see any chance of success given the lack of bipartisan support. This is much more like a replay of the Clinton impeachment, whereas with Nixon and Watergate there was Republican support, a much stronger case on the facts which, of course, led to Nixon's resignation.
You are right JC but...
the msm are portraying this in a completely different way, ignoring the crucial facts that you present.
Great job with that final paragraph
It's Trump's "Benghazi scandal" - brought against him by precisely the people who, of ALL people, SHOULD FUCKING KNOW BETTER.
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
They would rather lose to Trump than to Bernie or Tulsi
That's the whole enchilada.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
I believe that enchilada has a side of guacamole
with the words "Don't Investigate Crowdstrike" written on it in salsa.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
LOL! n/t
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Only been reading tweets about the hearing. Russia on trial?
After watching the clip in the essay, I don't think I could survive watching it. And the democrats think they are "winning". Winning what exactly? This is Kabuki alright. Only problem is that Americans don't care about Kabuki. These hearings will only play to the choir and nobody else.
From the tweets I have read, sounds like first cause of all of this is Russia. Apparently Schiff said that Putin wants to recreate Russia as the Soviet Union. Looks like Schiff is aiming at a sort of Russiagate 2.0.
Well I agree with that.
And I agree that the Sun comes up in the East.
What does either one have to do with this impeachment farce?
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
At this point Schiff is getting off on the attention.
At this point, is there anything remotely using impeachment as some politic tactic right or wrong? If anything all this is going to do is take attention off Bernie, Sanders, and Tulsi. But hey, that may be the point.
Rereading my post
it sounds like I'm being snotty to you. that was not my intent.
I intended to be snotty to Schiff and Pelosi et al.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
"You are the star witness?"
indeed. Taylor had no direct knowledge of the conversation and so he really didn't add anything to the circus.
Indeed again. The wreck list is full of how democrats are doing well and the GOP are just clowns when I saw something different. But their blind hatred to everything Trump is blocking them from seeing what is reality. I am just flabbergasted that people really think this will do Trump in and yank him from office. Biden confessed to quid pro quo, but those are Russian talking points don't you know?
They hate Trump because
he has exposed just what the US is and stands for, and that is THE cardinal sin in America, do not look behind the façade, this is a decent, God fearing, democratic republic and any talk of it being anything else is strictly verboten. And soon, with a little luck, any talk of that kind will be fully prosecuted under law, since this country is based strictly on law and order....
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Well certainly the media is calling these clerks star witnesses
The democrats have no ability to craft a narrative with clear villains, heroes, and plot line. So exciting bureaucrats talking about talking and what they heard.
Perestroika Comes to the Empire.
We're getting ready to go down. I expect massive capital flight and economic malfeasance. Privatizing the commons and firesale of public assets is ongoing and will be hitting critical mass.
Good luck to all, you're on your own. All the freedom you can afford.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
Perestroika or Paranoia?
Paranoia strikes deep Into your life it will creep It starts when you're always afraid You step out of line, the man come and take you away
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Totally biased media article on the hearings
Politico, the NYT and other media have written about how people in Ukraine worked with the Hillary campaign, the DNC and the FBI to get dirt on people in Trump's campaign. History has been captured showing that yes it did happen, but now we are being told that those articles just fit some conspiracy theory of the GOP, Barr and Trump. It's enough to make me go syhcho or something because I know what I have read, but I am being told that I didn't read it right. Or something. Sheesh...!
Consortium News' Editor-in Chief Joe Lauria's tweet
George W. Bush invaded a sovereign nation that did not threaten the US based on fraudulent evidence killing hundreds of thousands of people, in what Nuremberg called the worst war crime, aggression, and yet he wasn't impeached. There is something seriously wrong here.
Joe Lauria November 13, 2019
@aliasalias While Bush's actions in
While Bush's actions in Iraq were far worse than Trump extorting Ukraine, Bush was better than Trump at convincing the public that his crimes were for the good of the country.
He used the fear people had after 9/11 to convince them to see Iraq as a threat. Once the WMD lie was exposed, people take solace that Hussein was a horrible person and use that to retroactively justify it.
Trump's violation of election laws, and his attempt to extort Ukraine, while less egregious, is harder to spin as anything but abuse of power for personal and political benefit. Also:
That's why Pelosi
took impeachment off the table. She was afraid of public opinion.
You know how much Pelosi cares about public opinion. Actually, all the Democrats do.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
IIRC Nancy said impeachment was off the table that time.
After all, she was feeding at the same trough.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Quid Pro Quo as explained by a lawyer
I see no evidence that Trump asked for campaign help.
The only official evidence says that he asked for help in a criminal investigation, which is right and proper.
Now if Trump had asked for a "campaign contribution" or a "speaking fee" in exchange for releasing funds, that would be an impeachable offense. Even if a SoS did it. Unless her name was Hillary and her husband's name is Bill, of course.
Just asking for something in exchange for foreign aid is not a crime in itsself. What you ask for makes all the difference.
If a Mayor says he will support a zoning change if inner city youth are promised a certain number of jobs, that's not a crime. If he says he will support a zoning change in exchange for an envelope of cash, it is a crime. Or demanding a job for his son. Or demanding that a criminal complaint against his son be dropped. Unless the politician's name is Joe and his last name is Biden.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
The video covered this
It's obvious even to Republicans that this was unethical.
A case can be made that this was abuse of power.
Nevertheless, impeachment isn't about the law. It's about politics.
Trump will not be tossed from office, but it won't help him with independents.
It may very well keep Warren and Sanders in D.C. during the primaries.
Did you watch the first video here?
Many of the articles I have read say that he did nothing wrong. Again. It's funny how two people can see the same things and come away with different views.
No
I won't watch fox for the same reason I won't watch msnbc.
I'm not convinced Trump did something illegal. But it's obvious it was unethical.
Fox is just the medium for the video
There is no commentary from them just Jordan talking to Taylor. It's just the same as if I used YouTube.
If he did something wrong
by mixing personal (and domestic) political concerns with foreign affairs, are we going to go after everybody who does this?
If he did something wrong by stepping on the powers of the legislative branch, are we going to go after every president who does this?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
And not one word
about arming Nazis in the whole clown show. Parties that explicitly state that eliminating Slavs is job 1.
Orwell: Where's the omelette?
Bingo!
Thanks for pointing that out here. We are arming the same group of Nazis that had connections to Hitler for gawd's sake and lots of people don't see any problem arming them with more lethal weapons. Tens of thousands of Russians have died since Obama's 3rd coup, but people here believe that Russia invaded Ukraine... gawd the amount of disinformation that has been spreading in this country raises my blood pressure.
I tell my friends
that their taking MSM as a source is identical to taking Stalins Pravda or Izvestia as a source. And that's not hyperbole. It's the actual case. And every point they raise I can prove as a lie or spin, and they'll still go back to the 1% Party Line after an avalanche of proof. And these are intelligent people. WTF?!??!??!
Orwell: Where's the omelette?
And not just the media
But the intelligence agencies too. Since Trump became president the people who should know better are trusting them beyond reason. Mueller? The guy who has lied to us his whole career? Comey, Brennan, Bolton? Cripes there goes my bp again. I seriously don't understand, but I have been reading about mass hypnosis and how very insidious propaganda is. No wonder Obama wanted to make it legal for the government to lie to us. He knew what he put in the works.
What countries do you consider to be Slavic?
Are Ukrainians Slavs?
Is Zelensky a Nazi?
What political groups/movements/parties in Ukraine do you consider Nazis?
deleted
It's who the Nazis
consider Slavic, isn't it? Russians. Some Nazi factions also want to eliminate Poles and Jews.
What do you consider "eliminate" to mean when said by Nazis?
Orwell: Where's the omelette?
There's no law requiring
intellectual laziness and wilful ignorance. There's what they call the internet now. But pretending you are serious go look up Privy Sektor. Which started out as The Social Nationalist Party (get it?); wears SS insignia; had mass murdering Bandar -- who lead the Nazi trumphilist march into Kiev -- declared a National Hero and a National Holiday observed...
There's other parties in Ukraine. Why don't you go look up who holds what offices in Ukraine, including military and state Police, see their party affiliations, go to their websites (Google and Microsoft have URL translators) and report back what you've found.
Orwell: Where's the omelette?
Nazis are Nazis
I know Zelensky, the current president of Ukraine, is not a Nazi. Ukrainian rightwing groups/militias/parties are not Nazis. During WWII, many to their great shame were allied with the Nazis for complicated reasons, none of which were good. There is a variety of disgusting right wing forces in Ukraine now with many complicated and strange, convoluted alliances. The current government is not dominated by Nazis or right wingers - far from it -- and Zelensky has made considerable headway in attenuating their influence even further. But if you think Ukrainians are Nazis, then you think they are Nazis.
It has been well documented Wally
Yes they are. If you refuse to research it then why bother to comment? Neo Nazis have been involved in Ukraine's government since we overthrew the president. They were who made the Maiden square massacre so violent. They are now threatening Zelensky because he wants to talk with Russia about peace.
There's a lot of wiggle room in "Neo"
If the Ukrainian people are so right-leaning, how did Zelensky, a guy from eastern Ukraine whose Russian is probably better than his Ukrainian (he even says so) get elected? Why didn't a Neo-Nazi get elected? Do you consider him a Neo-Nazi? Why didn't Porushenko get re-elected? I honestly have no idea how broadly you cast that Nazi/Neo-Nazi characterization.
Why do you think there is such a low percentage of seats in the Ukrainian parliament held by members of right wing parties today?
Maybe we have a different interpretation of right wing.
Let me know which parties in Ukraine are Neo-Nazis and/or right wing and then we can discuss the matter.
Otherwise, we seem to be talking past each other.
As far as funding Nazis or Neo-Nazis is concerned, the US congress cut off funds going to the Azov Batallion in 2018. So yea, the US did fund those assholes for a while which sucked.
Maybe we can also discuss Putin's ties with right wing organizations and parties throughout Europe.
Or not.
I'm guessing you didn't read the article
or do any research so I'm done. You asked for proof I provided it and yet you still think what you do. Don't know why you need to hang on to that but hey.
I did read both the Ugate-related and the Guardian articles
I thought the Ugate article very problematic in its assumptions and weak in it's analytical applications re. Ukrainian politics (blending and mixing up yesterday's history in Ukraine with newer developments especially beginning with the election of Zelensky).
I generally liked the Guardian article you cited but I prefer to characterize groups like the Azov battalion fascist rather than neo-Nazi and I think some hasty conclusions were drawn from symbols employed by the fascists we're looking at. They are also a very confused bunch in terms of their ideology if it can even be called that. Not exactly the sharpest tools in the shed that way, y'know.
What do you think of these snippets from that Guardian article YOU cited to substantiate your argument that you seem to think I didn't read?
You're the only one
saying all Ukrainians are Nazis. Go look up who is in charge of the Armed Agents of the state and then tell me how Nazis don't have power; don't benefit from US arms. Here's a fun thing you can do: look up Roma and Ukraine, and then come tell us there's nothing there. Look up Odessa and "burned alive" (still on YouTube?) and tell us how Nazis have no power in Ukraine. Look up how Nazis have already threatened to pull a new Maiden if Z makes the moves they don't want. Look up how Poland has blocked Ukrainian border crossing for the Nazis coming from there. Myself, I'd be ashamed to offer Seriously ignorant opinion and sloppy thinking in a public forum.
Orwell: Where's the omelette?
Insult me all you want
But I still disagree with your assumptions and arguments.
Please see my response to Snoopydog above especially re the quotes from the Guardian article she cited to back up your assertions.
I'm content to wait and see how things pan out with Zelensky. I'm not very concerned with the political situation in Ukraine right now. There are a bunch of fascists running around saying stupid stuff in the US, too.
Right now, I prefer to engage myself in trying to figure out what's happening in Bolivia.
You might want to read this
It explains how we have been arming the neo Nazis in Ukraine and who they are.
It's not my preference
that the Dems seem to have decided to make U-gate as the sole or primary impeachment focus. I would have liked to see a broader scope -- obstruction of justice in other areas, abuse of office, emoluments violations galore. Maybe later we'll see some of this evidence publicly presented.
But for now we're rather quickly in the weeds with U-gate and the blizzard of Ukraine and US ambassador and State Dept names which probably call for an official printed program for viewers at home to keep track of the players. And this is no Watergate Redux -- back in 73-4, the media was dominated by the 3 major networks along with PBS in the big cities, and all outlets covered the hearings gavel-to-gavel and folks had no cable or internet to turn to as an alternative. No wonder the senate and House hearings fairly quickly enough got traction and held viewers' interest. And of course there were the tapes, a crucial find which turned the corner on impeachment.
But before that, the hearings started slowly and quietly with low-level witnesses, and there were the inevitable grumblings that the Dems were in danger of boring the public to death with the minor characters and their small stories of unethical and corrupt activities. Talk began even inside the senate committee that the Dems were boring the public, blowing it, about to let Tricky Dick off the hook.
The public hearings have just begun, in a very different time from Watergate. Far too early for meaningful reviews. I'm patient and hopeful about the overall process, even if imperfect, but don't have expectations beyond that it will lead to impeachment in the House and no conviction in the senate. Even with that, it will be a victory for Ds, the right thing having been done and a sincere effort made to hold Trump accountable. And I anticipate the effort will also be helpful to Ds in the GE next year.
@wokkamile Helpful in winning the
Helpful in winning the Presidency probably. I think it kills any chance of taking the Senate. But that was always going to be a tough hill to climb.
Depends on the nominee, no?
I doubt that it will go to trial in the senate but if McC decides to take that route, Warren and Bernie will be locked into DC through the primaries while Biden will be free to campaign. So who knows? If there is a trial, there won't be a conviction or removal given the 2/3 senate approval requirement in a chamber still dominated by the GOP. If there is a trial bereft legal consequences, I'm not so sure that will benefit Biden if he's the nominee because of the generalized stink of U-gate (although I think he will still have a better chance to beat Trump than Warren while Bernie would still def win imo). In any event, the thought of Bernie being stuck in DC in the 1-2 months leading up to Iowa et al and then Super Tuesday come March 3rd has me freaking out.
@Wally
I think it will definitely go to trial. Optics and all. McConnell has said there would be too many times to easily not have one. Plus he isn't going going to pass up the chance for the GOP to control the narrative on TV after watching the Democrats control it in the house.
I think it will last 4 weeks or so, but that is purely speculative.
The Gag order during impeachment will be a HUGE burden on Sanders, but, IMHO even more so for Warren. My reasoning on that score is that Sanders has more campaign surrogates and people who have endorsed him to keep spreading the message and, at least slightly, mitigate things.
Although it could be
a win/win for Bernie being stuck in DC. For one, he won't have to personally be stuck in IA in the 2 months leading up to IA. Having to eat all them corndogs probably isn't the best thing for his health, or anyone's. Let his local staffers and many fine surrogates, such as The Group, take over for him and pretend to like corndogs. People will know and understand he has no option but to be away in DC, and will thank him for sending out such great people like AOC in his stead. Plenty of IAans will be watching the televised senate trial anyway. And all the endless football bowl games and NFL playoff games.
For another, Biden, assuming in the unlikely event he is still a viable concern in IA in Jan, will have more attention focused on him, thus more scrutiny of his comments, which are bound to be laughable at times when they are not sad and the sort of things we shouldn't laugh at. His main competition on the stump would probably be the Mayor and Joe risks looking a little too senior and past-his-prime in comparison with the fresh-faced junior pol from the tiny Hoosier backwater town.
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