So how did the first day of the impeachment circus go?

lol..if that doesn't clear things up for ya... then there is Adam Schiff denying that he knows who the whistleblower is.

The republican's response?

Zelensky has stated that he did not know that the military aid had been held up so how could there be quid pro quid or bribery as Schiff has amended the impeachment charges to? I don't remember congress saying anything when Obama refused to let them go to Ukraine because he was afraid of ramping up tensions with Russia. How can withholding the javelin weapons harm our national security?

The whole Ukraine debacle started when Obama overthrew Ukraine's president because he was friendly with Russia.

US Staged a Coup in Ukraine - Here's Why and How

.....Conclusion

That's the basic truth about the coup in Ukraine, and it hasn't benefited anyone other than the warmongers. Ukraine is split in two and stuck in a frozen civil war; its debt-to-GDP ratio has doubled since the US-backed coup; pensions, social services and minimum wages ($140 a month) have been slashed and the people are still ruled by corrupt oligarchs. The US regime change ops also ignited a chain reaction of needless hostility, hysterical Russophobia and crippling sanctions. The EU has lost more than $100 billion in trade with Russia in the last four years; and the US has pushed Russia deep into China's orbit. Just like the neocon adventures in Iraq and Syria, the meddling in Ukraine will go down as another disastrous and reckless chapter in the sordid history of US foreign policy.

There are no repercussions for destabilizing country after country and causing unimaginable suffering and death. Or any of the other heinous things Trump is doing. But try to find out who was involved in trying to overthrow your presidency and look into corruption of the previous administration and bam! you're being impeached. But when your opponents don't have a solid case against you then you can sit back and watch them make fools of themselves. And laugh. Cuz what else can you do?

Trump is a horrible, corrupt and arrogant asshole who is doing lots of damage to us and the country and there are plenty of legitimate reasons to impeach him. But of course congress can't do it for those reasons or they'd have to charge many others for the same thing. So instead we get kabuki impeachment hearings.

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Comments

ppnortney's picture

is an art form with a long and respected tradition. What the Democrats are doing is what my mother would call showing their asses in public. Honestly, it's like they're trying to look incompetent and petty.

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The smaller the mind the greater the conceit. --Aesop

k9disc's picture

Democrats only have to lose a few more State Houses and it's a Brave New World.

@ppnortney

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

@k9disc
regardless of which political philosophy were to dominate at such a convention.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

k9disc's picture

pretty much OK with our unreality these days, so it's not really affecting me as it would have a few years ago...

I can see the mighty corporate Wurlitzer lining us up and tuning us for battle - again quite clearly. It's bound to go hot in the near future, IMO, as the corporate media is almost textbook stochastic terrorism. It's rather naked if you step outside of our cultural programming and blind trust in authority.

I'm squarely outside the zeitgeist, but I feel rather helpless to stop or slow it because it requires a serious change in mindset. And who am I to disagree with influential celebrities, billionaires, and political leaders? I just have to be a Russian Bot, A Trumpy, or a cultural marxist because I'm not playing the role assigned to me by central casting and the corporate media.

It's strange, for sure. I'm starting to realize how George Carlin could be that dispassionate observer in the face of the slow motion trainwreck of social collapse. I'm OK to just observe and accept our manufactured unreality and watch the passion play take place. That said, I'm trying to keep my eyes open for a place to throw my weight on the scales; I'm just not holding my breath.

Peace, @UntimelyRippd

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

snoopydawg's picture

Header:

On the First day of Impeachment ... republicans looking like fools

A tweet from it..

LMAO! "If Zelensky had...." well Adam if doesn't count here because we're dealing with what did happen not what if happened.

This is supposed to be a gotcha moment and it is big.

No it's not because no one in Ukraine was made to have said anything. This is the whole reason why impeachment is going to fail. Zelensky never said that he would investigate ByeDone so he could get the aid. It's weird how two people can hear something and take two opposing views on what they heard. And why is military aid to a foreign country a national security concern for the USA? Bueller?

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America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@snoopydawg
Assuming, arguendo Trump asked for the investigation, and leveraged aid against it, it doesn't matter what Zelensky did or felt. Putting aside the fact that it would be horrible politically if Zelensky admitted to feeling pressured because it would make him look weak at home, and hurt his chances of getting Trump's help, Trump attempting to extort a foreign government into helping your campaign does not stop being a crime because the attempt did not succeed.

Granted, there would have been additional problems had Zelensky ordered the investigation. There would almost certainly been a subsequent attempt to cover up the reason was that Trump suddenly decided that unsupported theories that Biden was trying to punish a prosecutor for a investigating a company that his son later came to work for, even though the investigation was closed before his son started.

Asking Ukraine to dig up dirt on a political opponent or to exonerate Russia from the email hacks would be an abuse of power in and of itself. Threatening to delay or hold aid to the Ukraine just makes that abuse more flagrant.

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@Vex ,

and I hope you continue. What I take from what you've said is that Trump's phone conversation should be seen as part of a larger motivation, regardless of President Zelenskiy's understanding of it. As a person who trusted and respected Joe Biden until very recently, I am doing the same thing with Biden. I see the appointment of Cofer Black, a leading private mercenary profiteer, to the board of Burisma as meaningful. It doesn't get more hideous than Cofer Black as to war machine operations. Therefore, along with the Obama/Clinton Global Shale Initiative plugging American taxpayers' money into international fracking on the part of energy conglomerates, I see the U.S. takeover of Ukraine in the light of a clear fascist war on the people of Ukraine, east and west, for the purpose of enriching a bunch of sleazoid private killers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/12/the-money-machine-how-a-hi...

by Oliver Bullough
Wed 12 Apr 2017

… For decades, hundreds of billions of dollars have vanished from the world’s poorest countries, finding their way – via the tax and secrecy havens of Europe, south-east Asia and the Caribbean – into the banking system, real estate and luxury goods markets of the west. According to the World Bank, between $20bn and $40bn is stolen each year by public officials from developing countries.

… The credibility of the United States was not helped by the news that since May 2014, Biden’s son Hunter had been on the board of directors of Burisma, Zlochevsky’s company.

The White House insisted the position was a private matter for Hunter Biden, and unrelated to his father’s job, but that is not how anyone I spoke to in Ukraine interpreted it. Hunter Biden is an undistinguished corporate lawyer, with no previous Ukraine experience. Why would a Ukrainian tycoon hire him?

Hunter Biden failed to reply to questions I sent him, but he told the Wall Street Journal in December 2015 that he had joined Burisma “to strengthen corporate governance and transparency at a company working to advance energy security”. That was not an explanation that many people found reassuring. The Washington Post was particularly damning: “The appointment of the vice president’s son to a Ukrainian oil board looks nepotistic at best, nefarious at worst,” it wrote, shortly after Hunter Biden’s appointment. “You have to wonder how big the salary has to be to put US soft power at risk like this. Pretty big, we’d imagine.”

… On 19 January, the day before Trump’s inauguration, Zlochevsky’s gas company announced it was becoming a funder of the Atlantic Council, a prominent Washington thinktank. The Atlantic Council declined to say exactly how much money the tycoon had offered, only that his donation had been between $100,000 and $249,000. A month later, Burisma hired a new director. Joseph Cofer Black does not appear to have any more experience of Ukraine than his colleague Hunter Biden but – as an ex-ambassador and a former director of the CIA’s counterterrorism centre under George W Bush – he is likely to have lots of useful contacts in Washington.

https://russische-botschaft.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/White-Book-04....

WHITE BOOK
ON VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND THE RULE OF LAW IN UKRAINE
(APRIL 2014 — MID-JUNE 2014)

… May 11, 2014. German newspaper Bild wrote that the Ukrainian army and police included 400 serving mercenaries from Academi (formerly Blackwater in 2009), the private security services provider. The Donetsk People's Republic militia repeatedly mentioned English-speaking foreigners taking part in combat operations in south- east Ukraine.

… May 16, 2014. The ‘People's mayor’ of Slavyansk, V. Ponomarev, told a press conference that, during the punitive operation in south-east Ukraine, Kiev authorities involved mercenaries from a Polish private military company Analizy Systemowe Bartlomiej Sienkiewicz (ASBS, OTHAGO) and American protective services providers such as Greystone and Academi.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Vex

Torture, kidnapping, illegal wars, catastrophic energy policy, destruction of other people's countries, endemic election fraud in one's own--and the big "crime" is Trump asking a foreign politician to look into some of Trump's political enemies.

If it's a crime, are we going to bust Hillary's friends for getting Russians to supply info for the Steele dossier? Or is that different?

I almost don't give a shit anymore if politicians do shitty things to one another, but assuming we care what Donald Trump does to Joe Biden, or what Hillary Clinton does to Donald Trump, is it better to ask the CIA to look into your political enemies? Why? Because they're "American?" What about if the CIA looks into politicians on their own? Is that better than what Trump said on the phone, or worse?

But more to the point, how does anybody have any outrage left over for this pathetic soap opera?

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

snoopydawg's picture

@Vex

Asking Ukraine to dig up dirt on a political opponent or to exonerate Russia from the email hacks would be an abuse of power in and of itself. Threatening to delay or hold aid to the Ukraine just makes that abuse more flagrant.

Russia did not hack the DNC computers and give them to Wikileaks. There has been no evidence shown that proves that they did. Nor did Mueller show any in his report. The FBI never looked at the computers and only relied on an unfinished draft statement by CrowdStrike that the DNC hired.

Assange has said that the information he released did not come from Russia. Again this site has been covering the numerous spider legs of Russia Gate and that too can be found if you search for it.

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America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@snoopydawg ToP? I note that the dailykos is referred to that here.

Is that "the Other page" or "the Oligarchy's page?"

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boriscleto's picture

@Vex

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" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "

lotlizard's picture

@Vex  
Analogous to how the people at JackPine Radicals refer to the site Democratic Underground as SV, for “Site Voldemort.” JackPine Radicals started out as a lifeboat or refuge for exiles from DU.

Edited to add an actual example:
https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/oppose-the-military-coup-in-bo...

elias39

Know what’s disturbing – here on the home front? SV is gung-ho on the coup [in Bolivia]. That’s pretty disgusting. So glad I left there 2 years ago. Sick f****.

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CS in AZ's picture

@Vex

“The other place” or “that other place” — a reference to Voldemort Daily Kos. They who shall not be named.

I personally hate it with a passion. TOP implies best, which daily kos certainly isn’t. And it’s obfuscating insider lingo, confusing to anyone not “in the club” — something I’d think we would want to avoid.

I see no reason to avoid naming dKos, if for some reason I find a need to talk about it. I’ve asked and begged people here to stop using this annoying acronym. You can see how effective that has been. It will never die. LOL.

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@CS in AZ I agree, it has bad optics. It gives too much power to DKOS, makes it seem like they occupy more head space here than they do to casual observers. The Voldemort comparison is apt in that sense.

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snoopydawg's picture

@CS in AZ

Sorry about that. From now on I will use DK. Do you have a preference on kids or inmates as Anja calls them?

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America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

CS in AZ's picture

@snoopydawg

I gave up on my pleas long ago. Not your problem! But if you are asking my preference, I’ll just say that I prefer, um, regular adult-type conversation, for the most part. Not a fan of name calling.

I don’t frequent DKos anymore myself, but I don’t think everyone there is a child, and they are definitely not inmates. No locked doors, anyone can leave whenever they want. So my answer is, neither.

I’ve used the word denizens, which works for me:

noun
plural noun: denizens
FORMAL•HUMOROUS
an inhabitant or occupant of a particular place. "denizens of field and forest"

Again for me personally I just don’t care enough about the denizens of DKos to spend much time or energy on what they are saying. If I wanted to know that, I’d still visit there. Smile

Thank you for asking though! Appreciated.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@CS in AZ

"Daily Kos" every time, so I hope "DK" is good enough!

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

lotlizard's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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1 user has voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Lookout's picture

I remember going over and convincing our team, others, to convince that we should be providing for loan guarantees. And I went over, I guess, the 12th, 13th time to Kiev. And I was supposed to announce that there was another billion-dollar loan guarantee. And I had gotten a commitment from Poroshenko and from Yatsenyuk that they would take action against the state prosecutor. And they didn’t.

So they said they had—they were walking out to a press conference. I said, nah, I’m not going to—or, we’re not going to give you the billion dollars. They said, you have no authority. You’re not the president. The president said—I said, call him. (Laughter.) I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a b-tch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time.

Another mass distraction from the dimwits. Instead of pushing policy to improve peoples lives and defeat Trump at the ballot box, they impeach and unite the Trumpateers.

President Donald Trump's repeated trashing of a Democratic impeachment inquiry has helped prompt a $13 million flood of campaign cash to bolster his reelection effort.

TPTB (including the DNC oligarchs) want Trumpolini back for another 4 years...at least that will be the outcome of this farce.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout @Lookout @Lookout
He actually did what Trump probably did. He strong armed a Nazi to not investigate HIM. Trump "asked" a peace and anti corruption president to investigate a crime the perpetrator has confessed - bragged - to, and if he found something to "please" tell him.

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A PROUD Hillary hater since 1993

@Lookout

The difference is in Biden's case, he was defending the United States interest (rooting out corruption) with both international and bipartisan domestic support. There was a mountain of evidence the Prosecutor was corrupt.

Trump, in relative secret asked for an investigation into a political opponent, despite showing no interest in it until Biden entered the race. While Biden's son getting a ridiculously well paying job with the company that had recently been investigated is skeazy and problematic. there was no indication that Hunter Biden broke any laws.

Don't get me wrong. I am not a Biden fan, but it is a false equivalence.

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k9disc's picture

they were neck deep in cash and kickbacks to boot. The Bidens are grifters, just like Drumpf, only more refined.

They were rooting out corruption with international support like Bush and Obama were fighting terror.

@Vex

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

boriscleto's picture

@Vex @Vex ROFL

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" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "

Alligator Ed's picture

@boriscleto I view vex's comment as either parody or snark. Hopefully he does not believe that Burisma or Vlochevsky or Moselievich (sp) are pure as the driven snow.

Dreumpf is no saint; in fact he is a con man. But, dear vex, where is all the evidence of Drumpf's alleged crimes which Herr Müller and 16 angry Demorats couldn't find? Please, do not use an Adam Schiff defense in responding.

P.S. Innocence is presumed. Guilt must be proven.

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@Alligator Ed Burisima's corruption is without question. But despite his claims, Victor Shokin was complicit in that corruption.

Shokin's claims that he was fired for investigating Burisma against Poroshenko's wishes is laughable. You don't find it odd that during Shokins tenure as prosecutor not one oligarch, or politician was convicted? That his office was suddenly investigating Zlochevsky and Burisma, after they hindered the British investigation into Zlochevsky?

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snoopydawg's picture

@Vex

it's morning. deleted

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America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@snoopydawg
huh?

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@Vex the corrupt one. There is a sworn statement he gave laying out the particulars. Sure Biden was "protecting US interests" and just what are those interests?

Never mind, don't look behind the curtain, the US is of course the clean one here and ONLY Trump is corrupt. s/

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@Vex Biden doesn't actually make sense!!! What in hell could the investigation turn up?? Hunter Biden was hardly in Ukraine at all. I think he flew in with daddy on Airforce 2 once. Maybe he flew in a couple of times and snorted some blow with his partners, who knows. The point is that he could not have participated in the sort of day to day corruption that might be turned up by an investigation in Ukraine. He didn't speak the language and he didn't know sh-t about Ukraine or natural gas. The corruption was already part of the public record. Hunter being paid $50,000 plus for nothing except being Joe B.'s son and daddy bragging about about firing the prosecutor at the Council on Foreign Relations forum.

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@Roy Blakeley The mere fact of an investigation would tarnish Biden long enough for the election.

Politically an active investigation has more heft. As for the 50K a month, sadly the voters tend to be ok with someone taking as much money as they can get. Hell, Politicians who are shown to be tax evaders through loopholes are deemed smart for not paying as little as possible. The Wire nailed this point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xub8nqHVZ1g

While the 50K a month should highlight the sytemic flaws in the system narrative quickly becomes that Hunter was smart for taking such a ridiculously sweet deal, leveraging power he did not actually possess. Apologists will point to the fact that Boards of companies are filled with unqualified relatives of people in power.

Also it is hard for Trump to pull that card given his own children.

I agree it doesn't make sense for Trump to get Ukraine involved, but mainly because if Biden is the nominee, Trump is better served letting him shoot himself in the foot. Trump is not known for his good ideas.

This is especially true if (fingers crossed) Biden is not the nominee.

I think trump should be impeached and removed from office for any number of issues, soliciting aid from Ukraine included, though not the most pressing.

That said, I think the Democrats were fools to pursue it, because:

A) if they impeach the Senate will keep him safe and it turn into a victory and a talking point for Trump about the money wasted, etc. Not to mention the fact that it helps the GOP keep the Senate in 2020, when at risks GOP Senators show their feigned "Country-Over-Party" credentials to by casting a meaningless vote to remove him.

B) If they don't impeach they look weak and wasteful of time and money.

C) In the Unlikely event they remove Trump. His replacement will only be harder to beat, by playing both sides. the Trump loyalist will see it as revenge and the moderates who disliked trump will find the replacement (pick an interchangeable white guy Pence? Romney?) more palatable.

Impeachment is a Kobayashi Maru of the Democrats own making.

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@Vex with his verbal diarrhea at the Council on Foreign relations and his fetish about little girls' hair (both readily available on YouTube). What this impeachment is about is the fact that Barr and Durham were getting close to uncovering the role of Brennan, Clapper and others in interfering in the 2016 Presidential election. The security establishment rolled out its "whistleblower" and called in its markers with Schiff, Pelosi and other Democrats closely tied to the security establishment to impeach Trump to distract from and traduce the Barr-Durham investigation. Clapper has already signaled that he knows he is under criminal investigation and has been previewing his defense. Trump could certainly be impeached for violations of the emoluments clause and probably for obstruction of justice, but the Democratic establishment ignored these transgressions. You are right that this will be detrimental to the Democratic Party, but the Democratic leadership often does not act in the best interest of the party.

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Alligator Ed's picture

@Vex The argument that requesting aid for help with a number of potential criminal matters rises to the severity of High Crimes and Misdemeanors? Ridiculous. How would negotiations with foreign countries proceed on a practical, real-world level if secrecy were never afforded? Impeachment Trump if one must but do so on a legitimate cause of action. The military aid holdup allegation has been disproven so often, why repeat it here again? And so what if there was a quid pro quo. If that "quo" benefited the U.S. government, in the opinion of the elected leader, where does this become a crime? Does the indirect benefit of winning a legal contest against an opponent vitiate the fact the wrong-doing most certainly occurred (such as the recent disclosure of $3.2M sent to Seneca Bohai LLC while Hunter Biden was on the board).

Those supporting impeachment over Ukrainegate are more gullible than the millions who swallowed Russiagate. There unfortunately too many believers in "any blue will do". The Dem party is flailing and failing.

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@Vex
"There was a mountain of evidence the Prosecutor was corrupt."
Not one little pebble of which anyone can cite, although one can parrot propaganda. In the real world said prosecutor had already a full scale investigation in place and had already pressed legal remedies.

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snoopydawg's picture

@Vex

get political dirt on Trump's campaign and especially Manafort. He has every right to look to see what was done that tried to derail his win and then his presidency. We have written numerous essays here covering this scandal and if you are interested you can search the site by putting Ukraine in the search bar. Here is an article on how the democrats were involved in Ukraine.
There have been numerous articles stating that the Ukraine prosecutor was forced out of office by joe Biden and he did that to stop their investigation into Burisma. The U.K. also withheld funds because of the corruption.

The Plundering of Ukraine by Corrupt American Democrats

Moon of Alabama had an excellent review of what Biden did in Ukraine about a week ago and I think you can see that what he did was wrong even if he said he had Obama's blessing to do it.

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America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@Lookout

The difference is in Biden's case, he was defending the United States interest (rooting out corruption) with both international and bipartisan domestic support. There was a mountain of evidence the Prosecutor was corrupt.

Trump, in relative secret asked for an investigation into a political opponent, despite showing no interest in it until Biden entered the race. While Biden's son getting a ridiculously well paying job with the company that had recently been investigated is skeazy and problematic. there was no indication that Hunter Biden broke any laws.

Don't get me wrong. I am not a Biden fan, but it is a false equivalence.

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Alligator Ed's picture

@Vex Hey, it's okay to be an acolyte of China Joe, gaffe-meister extraordinary. Shokin guilty of corruption? Funny, Zelensky's anti-corruption department has not produced evidence thereof. Joe Biden rooting out corruption. Joe Biden has the finer instincts of a porcine, rooting around into all sorts of things, like the curls of young girls. If there's a country where he had leverage, money just seemed to follow JoJo's family. Ukraine--check! China--check! Romania--check!

Giving the party-line peddled by the DNC as legitimate, suggests that some readers here need a little firmer grounding into Spygate. I also wonder if the commenter has views about Tulsi Gabbard and/or Jill Stein as being Russian agents.

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@Alligator Ed @lizzyh7 Burisma is absolutely corrupt. @Alligator Ed
Shokin was soft on corruption (look into the diamond prosecutors, for example). when people in his office pursued cases, he was quick to fire them with no real explanation.

Hell. look at the case Burisma and Mykola Zlochevsky. The company and its owner were clearly engaged in corrupt practices. When British fraud investigators froze Zlochevsky's London-based accounts, Shokin's office refused to provide documents, They sent instead sent letter's saying there was no case against Zlochevsky. Ultimately Britain had to unfreeze the accounts.

Shokin needed to go. Biden's sin was not the effort to fire him, it was that he endangered that effort by not recusing himself.

As for Stein and Gabbard. No, I do not believe they are Russian Agents.

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Alligator Ed's picture

@Vex But he was hot on the trail of Zlochevsky and silent partner(s) because Poroshenko and Shokin were long-time allies. Zlochevsky and Poroshenko dislike each other, so a personal motive is involved as well. Poroshenko chose a billion bucks over his buddy Shokin, who, although for impure reasons, was investigating Burisma et. al.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Vex


he was defending the United States interest (rooting out corruption) with both international and bipartisan domestic support.

In other words, Biden is on the right team. The pro-U.S. team. In other words, those protecting the interests of the factions currently running the U.S. In still other words, protecting the interests of energy barons, weaponsmakers, financiers, and the CIA. And their political middle managers.

The right team wants certain politicians in power and certain policies in place in Ukraine. The right team--or I guess I should call them the good guys, because using the abbreviation "RT" might be confusing--the good guys appreciate Biden threatening to withhold aid at that point. The good guys don't like Trump threatening to withhold aid if the Ukrainian president doesn't investigate Biden.

The very notion that what we're defending is Ukraine's right to receive military aid from the United States as per agreement is disgusting. Oh, wait--no, it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with preserving the separation of powers, making sure that the Executive doesn't step on the Legislative's toes. Right? Because I know that matters so much to us. After all, when Bush started throwing around Executive Orders and Presidential memos, to walk around, or more accurately, walk through Congress, impeachment proceedings began immediately.

Didn't they?

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

snoopydawg's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

It's especially fun to see it being okay that the CIA is trying to take Trump down. Rah rah CIA! Go team blue. The CIA has no business being involved in our elections, but try telling others that they were during the creation of Russia Gate.

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America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Lookout

that should have been in my list of questions!

And a great point.

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2 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

If Taylor and Kent were supposed to be the "star" witness, this impeachment effort seems doomed to fail. I literally fell asleep during Taylor's testimony, especially when he was asked to speculate on what was meant on a phone call he didn't listen to, what President Trump (whom he never had direct contact with) meant, hearsay after hearsay. Then when the Rs starting asking questions, "Shifty Schiff" (sorry, can't help it since the moniker appears to be accurate) tried to change the rules by interrupting to caution the witness "not to assume the facts in the question as true" when the pre-agreed rules were no objections as under the Fed. Rules of Evidence. Rs scored the best points when they showed: (1) Zelenskiy was unaware of the hold on the Ukraine aid at the time of the phone call; (2) Zelesnkiy's repeated statements there was no pressure; and (3) the Ukrainians never opened the requested investigations, and the aid was eventually given. No harm, no foul.

The more the Dems go after this, it's bound to hurt Biden (which is probably why someone like Bloomberg wants to jump into the race) and I don't see any chance of success given the lack of bipartisan support. This is much more like a replay of the Clinton impeachment, whereas with Nixon and Watergate there was Republican support, a much stronger case on the facts which, of course, led to Nixon's resignation.

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18 users have voted.

@JCWeb the msm are portraying this in a completely different way, ignoring the crucial facts that you present.

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The Liberal Moonbat's picture

It's Trump's "Benghazi scandal" - brought against him by precisely the people who, of ALL people, SHOULD FUCKING KNOW BETTER.

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12 users have voted.

In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is declared insane when he speaks of colors.

@The Liberal Moonbat
That's the whole enchilada.

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19 users have voted.

Sanders-Gabbard 2020 !

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness

with the words "Don't Investigate Crowdstrike" written on it in salsa.

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7 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

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2 users have voted.

Sanders-Gabbard 2020 !

After watching the clip in the essay, I don't think I could survive watching it. And the democrats think they are "winning". Winning what exactly? This is Kabuki alright. Only problem is that Americans don't care about Kabuki. These hearings will only play to the choir and nobody else.

From the tweets I have read, sounds like first cause of all of this is Russia. Apparently Schiff said that Putin wants to recreate Russia as the Soviet Union. Looks like Schiff is aiming at a sort of Russiagate 2.0.

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17 users have voted.

@MrWebster
And I agree that the Sun comes up in the East.
What does either one have to do with this impeachment farce?

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2 users have voted.

Sanders-Gabbard 2020 !

@The Voice In the Wilderness At this point, is there anything remotely using impeachment as some politic tactic right or wrong? If anything all this is going to do is take attention off Bernie, Sanders, and Tulsi. But hey, that may be the point.

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8 users have voted.

@MrWebster
it sounds like I'm being snotty to you. that was not my intent.
I intended to be snotty to Schiff and Pelosi et al.

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2 users have voted.

Sanders-Gabbard 2020 !

snoopydawg's picture

@MrWebster

indeed. Taylor had no direct knowledge of the conversation and so he really didn't add anything to the circus.

And the democrats think they are "winning". Winning what exactly? This is Kabuki alright. Only problem is that Americans don't care about Kabuki. These hearings will only play to the choir and nobody else.

Indeed again. The wreck list is full of how democrats are doing well and the GOP are just clowns when I saw something different. But their blind hatred to everything Trump is blocking them from seeing what is reality. I am just flabbergasted that people really think this will do Trump in and yank him from office. Biden confessed to quid pro quo, but those are Russian talking points don't you know?

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19 users have voted.

America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@snoopydawg he has exposed just what the US is and stands for, and that is THE cardinal sin in America, do not look behind the façade, this is a decent, God fearing, democratic republic and any talk of it being anything else is strictly verboten. And soon, with a little luck, any talk of that kind will be fully prosecuted under law, since this country is based strictly on law and order....

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@snoopydawg The democrats have no ability to craft a narrative with clear villains, heroes, and plot line. So exciting bureaucrats talking about talking and what they heard.

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k9disc's picture

We're getting ready to go down. I expect massive capital flight and economic malfeasance. Privatizing the commons and firesale of public assets is ongoing and will be hitting critical mass.

Good luck to all, you're on your own. All the freedom you can afford.

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15 users have voted.

“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

@k9disc @k9disc
Paranoia strikes deep Into your life it will creep It starts when you're always afraid You step out of line, the man come and take you away

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2 users have voted.

Sanders-Gabbard 2020 !

snoopydawg's picture

Alternately, House Republicans were perhaps testing various defenses in hopes that one would stick — or at least that the confusion would muddy the case for impeachment.

Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.), the ranking member of the committee, used his opening statement to claim that the “Democrats cooperated in Ukrainian election meddling” in 2016 to hurt Trump’s chances of winning. Nunes’ claim is based on a 2017 Politico article that described how a Ukrainian-American political operative helped the Democratic National Committee get information about then-Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort’s shady past work in Ukraine.

Contrary to Nunes’ claims, there is no evidence of broad collusion between the Ukrainian government and the Democratic Party. Nonetheless, the notion of Democratic-Ukrainian collusion has morphed into an elaborate conspiracy theory in which Ukraine somehow framed Russia for hacking the DNC and the cybersecurity firm Crowdstrike helped cover it up. This baseless theory has been used by Republican operatives to justify Trump’s desire to pressure Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to launch an investigation into former Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter and Ukraine’s supposed role in the 2016 election.

Politico, the NYT and other media have written about how people in Ukraine worked with the Hillary campaign, the DNC and the FBI to get dirt on people in Trump's campaign. History has been captured showing that yes it did happen, but now we are being told that those articles just fit some conspiracy theory of the GOP, Barr and Trump. It's enough to make me go syhcho or something because I know what I have read, but I am being told that I didn't read it right. Or something. Sheesh...!

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14 users have voted.

America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

George W. Bush invaded a sovereign nation that did not threaten the US based on fraudulent evidence killing hundreds of thousands of people, in what Nuremberg called the worst war crime, aggression, and yet he wasn't impeached. There is something seriously wrong here.

Joe Lauria November 13, 2019

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23 users have voted.

@aliasalias @aliasalias While Bush's actions in Iraq were far worse than Trump extorting Ukraine, Bush was better than Trump at convincing the public that his crimes were for the good of the country.

He used the fear people had after 9/11 to convince them to see Iraq as a threat. Once the WMD lie was exposed, people take solace that Hussein was a horrible person and use that to retroactively justify it.

Trump's violation of election laws, and his attempt to extort Ukraine, while less egregious, is harder to spin as anything but abuse of power for personal and political benefit. Also:

  1. People have an easier time excepting smaller crimes happened, then accepting that they live in a world where their country killed thousands of innocent people.
  2. While Trump is arguing he was concerned about corruption in Ukraine, he never spoke on it or showed an interest until it became damaging to his likely 2020 opposition.
  3. Most people know a soldier, who went overseas and whether they came back or not, they don't want to accept that their friend, family member, etc. was part of illicit action. They are less likely to have a personal stake here.
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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Vex

took impeachment off the table. She was afraid of public opinion.

You know how much Pelosi cares about public opinion. Actually, all the Democrats do.

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3 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

@aliasalias
After all, she was feeding at the same trough.

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8 users have voted.

Sanders-Gabbard 2020 !

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@gjohnsit
The only official evidence says that he asked for help in a criminal investigation, which is right and proper.
Now if Trump had asked for a "campaign contribution" or a "speaking fee" in exchange for releasing funds, that would be an impeachable offense. Even if a SoS did it. Unless her name was Hillary and her husband's name is Bill, of course.

Just asking for something in exchange for foreign aid is not a crime in itsself. What you ask for makes all the difference.

If a Mayor says he will support a zoning change if inner city youth are promised a certain number of jobs, that's not a crime. If he says he will support a zoning change in exchange for an envelope of cash, it is a crime. Or demanding a job for his son. Or demanding that a criminal complaint against his son be dropped. Unless the politician's name is Joe and his last name is Biden.

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11 users have voted.

Sanders-Gabbard 2020 !

@The Voice In the Wilderness
It's obvious even to Republicans that this was unethical.
A case can be made that this was abuse of power.

Nevertheless, impeachment isn't about the law. It's about politics.
Trump will not be tossed from office, but it won't help him with independents.

It may very well keep Warren and Sanders in D.C. during the primaries.

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snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

Many of the articles I have read say that he did nothing wrong. Again. It's funny how two people can see the same things and come away with different views.

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6 users have voted.

America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@snoopydawg
I won't watch fox for the same reason I won't watch msnbc.

I'm not convinced Trump did something illegal. But it's obvious it was unethical.

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snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

There is no commentary from them just Jordan talking to Taylor. It's just the same as if I used YouTube.

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5 users have voted.

America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@gjohnsit

by mixing personal (and domestic) political concerns with foreign affairs, are we going to go after everybody who does this?

If he did something wrong by stepping on the powers of the legislative branch, are we going to go after every president who does this?

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3 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

about arming Nazis in the whole clown show. Parties that explicitly state that eliminating Slavs is job 1.

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snoopydawg's picture

@jim p

Thanks for pointing that out here. We are arming the same group of Nazis that had connections to Hitler for gawd's sake and lots of people don't see any problem arming them with more lethal weapons. Tens of thousands of Russians have died since Obama's 3rd coup, but people here believe that Russia invaded Ukraine... gawd the amount of disinformation that has been spreading in this country raises my blood pressure.

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12 users have voted.

America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@snoopydawg that their taking MSM as a source is identical to taking Stalins Pravda or Izvestia as a source. And that's not hyperbole. It's the actual case. And every point they raise I can prove as a lie or spin, and they'll still go back to the 1% Party Line after an avalanche of proof. And these are intelligent people. WTF?!??!??!

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12 users have voted.
snoopydawg's picture

@jim p

But the intelligence agencies too. Since Trump became president the people who should know better are trusting them beyond reason. Mueller? The guy who has lied to us his whole career? Comey, Brennan, Bolton? Cripes there goes my bp again. I seriously don't understand, but I have been reading about mass hypnosis and how very insidious propaganda is. No wonder Obama wanted to make it legal for the government to lie to us. He knew what he put in the works.

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10 users have voted.

America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@jim p

Are Ukrainians Slavs?

Is Zelensky a Nazi?

What political groups/movements/parties in Ukraine do you consider Nazis?

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snoopydawg's picture

@Wally

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America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@Wally consider Slavic, isn't it? Russians. Some Nazi factions also want to eliminate Poles and Jews.
What do you consider "eliminate" to mean when said by Nazis?

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@Wally intellectual laziness and wilful ignorance. There's what they call the internet now. But pretending you are serious go look up Privy Sektor. Which started out as The Social Nationalist Party (get it?); wears SS insignia; had mass murdering Bandar -- who lead the Nazi trumphilist march into Kiev -- declared a National Hero and a National Holiday observed...
There's other parties in Ukraine. Why don't you go look up who holds what offices in Ukraine, including military and state Police, see their party affiliations, go to their websites (Google and Microsoft have URL translators) and report back what you've found.

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@jim p

I know Zelensky, the current president of Ukraine, is not a Nazi. Ukrainian rightwing groups/militias/parties are not Nazis. During WWII, many to their great shame were allied with the Nazis for complicated reasons, none of which were good. There is a variety of disgusting right wing forces in Ukraine now with many complicated and strange, convoluted alliances. The current government is not dominated by Nazis or right wingers - far from it -- and Zelensky has made considerable headway in attenuating their influence even further. But if you think Ukrainians are Nazis, then you think they are Nazis.

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snoopydawg's picture

@Wally

Ukrainian rightwing groups/militias/parties are not Nazis.

Yes they are. If you refuse to research it then why bother to comment? Neo Nazis have been involved in Ukraine's government since we overthrew the president. They were who made the Maiden square massacre so violent. They are now threatening Zelensky because he wants to talk with Russia about peace.

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1 user has voted.

America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@snoopydawg

If the Ukrainian people are so right-leaning, how did Zelensky, a guy from eastern Ukraine whose Russian is probably better than his Ukrainian (he even says so) get elected? Why didn't a Neo-Nazi get elected? Do you consider him a Neo-Nazi? Why didn't Porushenko get re-elected? I honestly have no idea how broadly you cast that Nazi/Neo-Nazi characterization.

Why do you think there is such a low percentage of seats in the Ukrainian parliament held by members of right wing parties today?

Maybe we have a different interpretation of right wing.

Let me know which parties in Ukraine are Neo-Nazis and/or right wing and then we can discuss the matter.

Otherwise, we seem to be talking past each other.

As far as funding Nazis or Neo-Nazis is concerned, the US congress cut off funds going to the Azov Batallion in 2018. So yea, the US did fund those assholes for a while which sucked.

Maybe we can also discuss Putin's ties with right wing organizations and parties throughout Europe.

Or not.

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snoopydawg's picture

@Wally

or do any research so I'm done. You asked for proof I provided it and yet you still think what you do. Don't know why you need to hang on to that but hey.

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America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
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@snoopydawg

I thought the Ugate article very problematic in its assumptions and weak in it's analytical applications re. Ukrainian politics (blending and mixing up yesterday's history in Ukraine with newer developments especially beginning with the election of Zelensky).

I generally liked the Guardian article you cited but I prefer to characterize groups like the Azov battalion fascist rather than neo-Nazi and I think some hasty conclusions were drawn from symbols employed by the fascists we're looking at. They are also a very confused bunch in terms of their ideology if it can even be called that. Not exactly the sharpest tools in the shed that way, y'know.

What do you think of these snippets from that Guardian article YOU cited to substantiate your argument that you seem to think I didn't read?

Despite the presence of these elements, Russian propaganda that claims Kiev's "fascist junta" wants to cleanse east Ukraine of Russian speakers is overblown. The Azov are a minority among the Ukrainian forces, and even they, however unpleasant their views may be, are not anti-Russian; in fact the lingua franca of the battalion is Russian, and most have Russian as their first language.

Indeed, much of what Azov members say about race and nationalism is strikingly similar to the views of the more radical Russian nationalists fighting with the separatist side.

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@Wally saying all Ukrainians are Nazis. Go look up who is in charge of the Armed Agents of the state and then tell me how Nazis don't have power; don't benefit from US arms. Here's a fun thing you can do: look up Roma and Ukraine, and then come tell us there's nothing there. Look up Odessa and "burned alive" (still on YouTube?) and tell us how Nazis have no power in Ukraine. Look up how Nazis have already threatened to pull a new Maiden if Z makes the moves they don't want. Look up how Poland has blocked Ukrainian border crossing for the Nazis coming from there. Myself, I'd be ashamed to offer Seriously ignorant opinion and sloppy thinking in a public forum.

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@jim p

But I still disagree with your assumptions and arguments.

Please see my response to Snoopydog above especially re the quotes from the Guardian article she cited to back up your assertions.

I'm content to wait and see how things pan out with Zelensky. I'm not very concerned with the political situation in Ukraine right now. There are a bunch of fascists running around saying stupid stuff in the US, too.

Right now, I prefer to engage myself in trying to figure out what's happening in Bolivia.

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1 user has voted.
snoopydawg's picture

@Wally

It explains how we have been arming the neo Nazis in Ukraine and who they are.

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1 user has voted.

America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

that the Dems seem to have decided to make U-gate as the sole or primary impeachment focus. I would have liked to see a broader scope -- obstruction of justice in other areas, abuse of office, emoluments violations galore. Maybe later we'll see some of this evidence publicly presented.

But for now we're rather quickly in the weeds with U-gate and the blizzard of Ukraine and US ambassador and State Dept names which probably call for an official printed program for viewers at home to keep track of the players. And this is no Watergate Redux -- back in 73-4, the media was dominated by the 3 major networks along with PBS in the big cities, and all outlets covered the hearings gavel-to-gavel and folks had no cable or internet to turn to as an alternative. No wonder the senate and House hearings fairly quickly enough got traction and held viewers' interest. And of course there were the tapes, a crucial find which turned the corner on impeachment.

But before that, the hearings started slowly and quietly with low-level witnesses, and there were the inevitable grumblings that the Dems were in danger of boring the public to death with the minor characters and their small stories of unethical and corrupt activities. Talk began even inside the senate committee that the Dems were boring the public, blowing it, about to let Tricky Dick off the hook.

The public hearings have just begun, in a very different time from Watergate. Far too early for meaningful reviews. I'm patient and hopeful about the overall process, even if imperfect, but don't have expectations beyond that it will lead to impeachment in the House and no conviction in the senate. Even with that, it will be a victory for Ds, the right thing having been done and a sincere effort made to hold Trump accountable. And I anticipate the effort will also be helpful to Ds in the GE next year.

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2 users have voted.

@wokkamile Helpful in winning the Presidency probably. I think it kills any chance of taking the Senate. But that was always going to be a tough hill to climb.

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2 users have voted.

@Vex @wokkamile

I doubt that it will go to trial in the senate but if McC decides to take that route, Warren and Bernie will be locked into DC through the primaries while Biden will be free to campaign. So who knows? If there is a trial, there won't be a conviction or removal given the 2/3 senate approval requirement in a chamber still dominated by the GOP. If there is a trial bereft legal consequences, I'm not so sure that will benefit Biden if he's the nominee because of the generalized stink of U-gate (although I think he will still have a better chance to beat Trump than Warren while Bernie would still def win imo). In any event, the thought of Bernie being stuck in DC in the 1-2 months leading up to Iowa et al and then Super Tuesday come March 3rd has me freaking out.

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2 users have voted.

@Wally
I think it will definitely go to trial. Optics and all. McConnell has said there would be too many times to easily not have one. Plus he isn't going going to pass up the chance for the GOP to control the narrative on TV after watching the Democrats control it in the house.

I think it will last 4 weeks or so, but that is purely speculative.

The Gag order during impeachment will be a HUGE burden on Sanders, but, IMHO even more so for Warren. My reasoning on that score is that Sanders has more campaign surrogates and people who have endorsed him to keep spreading the message and, at least slightly, mitigate things.

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3 users have voted.

@Wally a win/win for Bernie being stuck in DC. For one, he won't have to personally be stuck in IA in the 2 months leading up to IA. Having to eat all them corndogs probably isn't the best thing for his health, or anyone's. Let his local staffers and many fine surrogates, such as The Group, take over for him and pretend to like corndogs. People will know and understand he has no option but to be away in DC, and will thank him for sending out such great people like AOC in his stead. Plenty of IAans will be watching the televised senate trial anyway. And all the endless football bowl games and NFL playoff games.

For another, Biden, assuming in the unlikely event he is still a viable concern in IA in Jan, will have more attention focused on him, thus more scrutiny of his comments, which are bound to be laughable at times when they are not sad and the sort of things we shouldn't laugh at. His main competition on the stump would probably be the Mayor and Joe risks looking a little too senior and past-his-prime in comparison with the fresh-faced junior pol from the tiny Hoosier backwater town.

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2 users have voted.

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