Who Shot Down Flight MH17 over Eastern Ukraine in 2014?
Well of course it was the Evil Russians! Didn’t Russians also shoot Roger Rabbit? We’d been discussing this 2014 interview with Tulsi Gabbard on my post ‘analyses of the leaked ‘Deal of the Century’ I/P peace plan’ that I’d found that day and posted in comments, mainly wanting to feature her anti-Palestinian Hasbara. As I remember it, this ‘blame’ started the horrific sanctions on Russia.
Tulsi says she doesn't want it, but her past record in #Obama/#Biden's Admin tells a different story. Let's rewind to the very words Tulsi said just a few yrs ago. #Tulsi betrays herself as a flatout #Zionist apologist & avid supporter of fascist #Ukraine. https://t.co/ANFYsZ4mGa
— NovaShpakova (@NovaShpakova) May 28, 2019
“While I agree that Russia is both directly and indirectly responsible for this downed plane shot down by the separatists, we’ve got to look at this in the bigger picture. We’ve got to look at Russia’s incursion into Ukraine, Ukraine’s sovereignty…”
TravelerXXX had bookmarked this Eric Zuesse exposé that I’d vaguely recalled and brought it in:
‘MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine’s Guilt Now Proven’, December 31, 2018, strategic-culture.org
It’s about nine yards long with zillions of hyperlinks, so long I don’t even guess I’d ever finished it, which makes it hard to figure out what, if any, nuggets to feature, but he did link to this:
‘MH-17: the untold story’, 22 Oct, 2014, RT.com, including a 27-minute video documentary.
“Three months after Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was brought down over Ukraine, there are still no definitive answers about what caused the tragedy. Civil conflict in the area prevented international experts from conducting a full and thorough investigation. The wreckage should have been collected and scrupulously re-assembled to identify all the damage, but this standard investigative procedure was never carried out. Until that’s done, evidence can only be gleaned from pictures of the debris, the flight recorders (black boxes) and eye-witnesses testimonies. This may be enough to help build a picture of what really happened to the aircraft, whether a rocket fired from the ground or a military jet fired on the doomed plane.”
I’d later added to that thread, including some photos of a beaming Netanyahu holding a map of the Golan Heights that Herr Trump had signed with his approval (indicating the leaked plan just may be The Real Deal) when Up Jumped the Devil:
‘Where is the evidence?’ Malaysian PM says attempts to pin MH17 downing on Russia lack proof’, 30 May, 2019, RT.com
“Malaysia has accepted the Dutch report that a ‘Russian-made’ missile shot down its civilian airliner MH17 over eastern Ukraine in 2014, but has yet to see evidence it was fired by Russia, said Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad.
“They are accusing Russia but where is the evidence?” Mahathir told reporters at the Japanese Foreign Correspondents Club (FCCJ) in Tokyo on Thursday.
“You need strong evidence to show it was fired by the Russians,” the prime minister went on, according to the Malaysian state news agency Bernama. “It could be by the rebels in Ukraine; it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile.”
“Mahathir was skeptical that anyone involved with the Russian military could have launched the missile that struck the plane, however, arguing that it would have been clear to professionals that the target was a civilian airliner.
“I don’t think a very highly disciplined party is responsible for launching the missile,” he said.
The Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT), whose report last year blamed Moscow for shooting down MH17, barred Russia from participating in the investigation, but involved the government of Ukraine. Although Malaysia is also a member of JIT, Mahathir revealed that his country’s officials have been blocked from examining the plane’s flight recorders.
“For some reason, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened,” he said. “We don’t know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we see too much politics in it.”
“This is not a neutral kind of examination,” Mahathir added.
Rejecting the JIT accusations, Russia made public the evidence the Dutch-led researchers refused to look into, including the serial number of the missile that allegedly struck MH17, showing that it was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1986 and was in the arsenal of the Ukrainian army at the time of the tragedy.”
b of Moon of Alabama offered this whopping 55 minute press conference video with Malaysian PM Mahathir on Twitter on May 31.
But aha! RT had later provided on the left sidebar:
May 24, 2018: ‘No Russian missile system ever crossed into Ukraine: MoD rejects Dutch MH17 claims’, RT.com
“The Russian Defense Ministry has rejected new claims that flight MH17 over Ukraine was downed by a missile from a Russian unit, urging the Dutch-led probe to focus on studying hard facts instead of social media images.
“Not a single anti-aircraft missile system of the Russian Armed Forces has ever crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border,” the defense ministry said in statement.
The Russian military raised eyebrows over “the determination of the Dutch-led investigation to justifying its conclusions by solely using images from social networks that have been expertly altered with computer graphic editing tools.”
The ministry pointed out that the images used in the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) press conference on Thursday were provided by the Ukrainian special services and had been previously displayed by the infamous British online investigative activist group, Bellingcat.
The Dutch-led probe announced that the missile that downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in July 2014 came from a Russian military Buk system that crossed into Ukraine and then returned to its base in western Russia.
Investigators claim the missile system involved came from “the 53rd Anti-aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk in Russia”. The JIT essentially just repeated the conclusion made by Bellingcat a year ago.
The alarming part in the JIT probe is that “the Dutch investigators completely ignore and reject the testimony of eyewitnesses from the nearby Ukrainian communities”, according to the Defense Ministry. The testimonies, however, provided essential information “indicating the launch of a missile was carried out from a territory controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces.”
The Russian side said that it provided the international probe with “comprehensive” evidence, including field tests, which “clearly indicate the involvement of the Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft system units” in the destruction of the plane with 283 passengers and 15 crew members onboard.”
This video that Eric Zuesse had up may be part of the referenced eye witness testimony.
Now I know many readers here at C99 have their favorite candidates among the Ds, and it’s all the same to me which one you choose, as long as you know them for who they are, blemishes and all. Someone on a recent diary of dkmich’s post had said there was some evidence that Bernie Sanders has evolved on VZ or something like that. What I did find at his website was this Press Release:
WASHINGTON, Jan. 24 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) issued the following statement Thursday on the political situation in Venezuela:
“The Maduro government in Venezuela has been waging a violent crackdown on Venezuelan civil society, violated the constitution by dissolving the National Assembly and was re-elected last year in an election that many observers said was fraudulent. Further, the economy is a disaster and millions are migrating.
“The United States should support the rule of law, fair elections and self-determination for the Venezuelan people. We must condemn the use of violence against unarmed protesters and the suppression of dissent. However, we must learn the lessons of the past and not be in the business of regime change or supporting coups – as we have in Chile, Guatemala, Brazil, and the Dominican Republic. The United States has a long history of inappropriately intervening in Latin American countries; we must not go down that road again.”
It’s close to the same as Ro Khanna’s rubbish:
March 7, 2019
Press Release
Today, Rep. Khanna with fifteen progressive colleagues, sent a letter to Secretary of State Pompeo rejecting threats of U.S. military intervention in Venezuela, supporting diplomatic dialogue to resolve the political crisis there and opposing broad economic sanctions that hurt ordinary Venezuelans.
The letter condemns the Maduro government’s anti-democratic actions, human rights abuses and destructive economic policies but strongly expresses concerns that the Trump Administration’s misguided policy could make the situation even worse for the Venezuelan people.
Polls from respected pollster Datanálisis show that the vast majority of Venezuelans are opposed to foreign intervention as a means of removing Maduro and instead want a negotiated solution to the crisis.
The letter urges support for a mediation process advocated by the Pope, and governments of Mexico and Uruguay, to promote dialogue instead of civil war.
“The Administration’s aggressive actions and rhetoric play into the Venezuelan government’s narrative that the country’s problems are the result of U.S. intervention, helping shore up Maduro’s support base and diverting attention from what is fundamentally a domestic problem,” said Rep. Khanna. “We respectfully call Sec. Pompeo to cast off threats of U.S. military intervention in Venezuela and build a dialogue to resolve the political crisis there.”
The 15 co-signers of the letter are: Reps. Pramila Jayapal (WA-17), Mark Pocan (WI-2), Raul Grijalva (AZ-3), Henry C. “Hank” Johnson (GA -4), Adriano Espaillat (NY-13), Ilhan Omar (MN-5), Rashida Tlaib (MI-13), Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (NY-14), Ayanna Pressley (MA-7), Nydia M. Velázquez (NY-7), José E. Serrano (NY-15), Tulsi Gabbard (HI-2), Karen Bass (CA-37), Danny K. Davis (IL-7) and Jan Schakowsky (IL-9).
Full text of the letter below and a PDF is available here.’
I’m assuming (or hoping) that it’s not necessary for me deconstruct any of that, especially what I’ve bolded. But all those bald-faced lies followed by ‘No regime change’? Gimme a break. Laugh track: Nicolas Marduro had high-fived Bernie, perhaps on Twitter, possibly assuming that Bern’s a ‘Democratic Socialist’ he’d get VZ’s Bolivarism. I did check Miz Gabbard’s house website, but never could find her FP issues page. She has one, or had one, yes?
And this morning’s WTF news from RT.com: ‘Clashes between Israeli police & Palestinian protesters as Jews allowed entry to Al-Aqsa Mosque’ 2 Jun, 2019 (with tweeted videos)
“Violence erupted at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem as Israeli forces allowed Jewish settlers to enter the compound for Jerusalem Day, sparking protests, arrests and injuries.
Israelis are usually prevented from entering the holy site during the last 10 days of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan when worshippers stay inside the site. This is the first time in around 30 years that Israelis have been allowed inside the site they call Temple Mount during this period.
Al Jazeera reports that settlers gathered outside the compound and police decided to let them in.
Palestinians inside the mosque protested against the admittance of the Israelis, with some throwing chairs and other items, prompting Israeli forces to enter the mosque and fire tear gas, sound bombs and rubber bullets, and arrest a number of Palestinians.
The Supreme Court rejected a petition filed by Temple Mount activists in May requesting they be allowed access on Jerusalem Day, saying it was up to the police to decide. Meanwhile, the police said the custom was to refuse Jewish access, but that a final decision had not been made.”
And who made that brilliant decision?
(cross-posted from Café Babylon)
Comments
on war, empire, and torture:
you may want to save these photos: this is the Amerikan Empire.
simply breath-taking:
I'd have to go with Zuesse's conclusion.
Have brought up Gabbard's sticking with the lies and false narratives regarding Russia and Ukraine, clearly one of her blind spots in her "antiwar" political campaign, that along with the massive and unrelenting war OF terror. That letter is a rather disgusting display of imperialist obfuscation by the duopoly political parties, fully supporting the lies about Maduro and what's happening in VS and in effect providing cover for future actions. You can't claim to be against military action while also lying about the reasons. Of course they can, that's how they prep the public for imperial advances.
i'm not positive that
i totally endorse zuesse's theory, but oh my, he'd brought in a lot of moving parts at the time. paranoid conspiracy theory or 'coincidence theory', as some brilliant mofo used to ask. (i'l think of his name later.) the russian defense ministry's contentions are in conflict with zuesse's (buk missiles v. another jet with missiles), but i sure as hell know that the dutch
reportdecision in advance was bullshit. i'd think that one would have to be willfully blind to accept it at face value, esp. if any of them like gabbard were on the defense and intel committees at the time. same with madurro's venezuela, to pretend that it's not mainly the egregious sanctions and blockades that are responsible for the estimated 40,000 citizens who've died for lack of medicines and food. and now their CLAP food delivery system is under attack...again.i get that the intel they're fed is rubbish, but they all have the duty to look further than what lies they're spoon fed. CEPR has been incredibly valuable a resource for one, and it's pretty mainstream.
but he's right about one thing: yanukovitch was overthrown due to his refusal to sign the EU association memo, and when Imperialists speak of how 'russia stole crimea', or refuse to see why the separatists in the donbass formed their own independent nation-states, it's utter hypocrisy.
thanks for reading and commenting, big al.
oh, and do you know if tulsi's FP is still at her house.gov site? i looked at all her press releases that were dated after that offensive letter, but i'd found nothing new.
Ya, I never got into it much.
I mean, there's the establishment/government narrative and there's the truth, that's about all I need to know. It's like that saying "trust, but verify". I say fuck that, "don't trust, and verify that".
I don't know about Gabbard's FP, she's done some housecleaning and avoided certain things since becoming the CFR's choice for 2024. Again, I've already done enough research, what, for over 3 years now?, to see what she's all about, something I failed to do in 2007/8 regarding Obama. Lo and behold, all the clues were there just waiting to be uncovered, but I wasn't in the same place as now.
turns out i was at the
wrong site (see lookout below)
yep, fuck trust.
I believe the answer was best documented
...by the Russians, who were not allowed to participate in the Dutch investigation. The information and data was presented to the Dutch and to the Western media in September 2018. Everything one could hope to see in physical evidence is here. There is additional evidence not in this article that adds to the details and forensics presented here.
https://www.rt.com/news/438596-mh17-downing-russian-briefing/
This information was not published in the West or in the Vassal State of Netherlands. The US possesses satellite photos of the incident. But it has classified those photos and refuses to release them.
As for means, motive and opportunity:
• MH17 was shot down over Ukraine, not over Russia.
• It was shot down with a missile owned by Ukraine, not by Russia.
• It had propaganda value for Ukraine and its CIA masters, none for
• The missile was fired from territory controlled by the neo nazi Kiev regime.
But the best evidence of what took place, as far as I'm concerned, is right here:
excellent,
and thank you. your memory is prodigious, and having the 2018 RT news is srsly helpful, as is your M,M, & O formula. blame first, then fail to allow russia (and malaysia) to be able to run investigations. good to know as well that the malaysian minister knew of the serial numbers and that ukraine owned the missiles.
eric zuesse had said that even dutch journalists were raising havoc with the JIT back in the day. but just think what this false blame resulting in mega-sanctions began, then onto the skripals, russia-gate in many guises, and tra la la.
mr. wd laughed this mornin' and said he wishes he had a choice to vote for sergei lavrov for prez; i second that!
dunno if the EU still wants a compact with ukraine, but NATO sure wants the neo-nazi nation as a member. ping: if i have the energy and time, i'll try to find in zuesse's tome admissions by snipers in 2014, as well.
Tulsi's issue page....
...is here -
https://www.tulsigabbard.org/
Must admit I didn't hunt down her Ukraine position, but my personal take is Obummer and the CIA set out to foment problems and managed to get a fascists regime elected in order to oppose Russia. The new Ukrainian president may take things in a more pro-Russia direction?
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
ach; not at her house.gov
site, at her election site. well, check out Russia, for now. and i do thank you; i was lookin' in all the wrong places. ; )i'll check out more soon as i have time, but zounds: russia: crimea, the nation's interference in our election, wooof. of course jill stein raised boatloads of bucks for recounts in three states on the basis of russian interference, later 'foreign interference' against the wishes of the green party board and her own running mate, so...there's that, but it was just a dodge against trump winning, not hillary. sorry, tulsi.
my apologies
for being in such a hurry i hadn't even registered your speculation about zelenskiy, but nah, he wants crimea and the donbass self-declared republics that putin stole from him...back. he's being lauded and applauded for 'standing up to KGB putin'. ; )
and the IMF's bailin' em out again so they have enough to pay their NATO dues and join the EU. (just saw that tryin' to remember how to sorta spell the comic's name.)
The pilot’s body, iirc,
maybe it was passengers’, was returned to Malaysia ... but in a sealed coffin, that even family members were refused to open.
At the time an OSCE member was the first to arrive at the crash site. Some 20 minutes after the downing. The photos taken by him, or so it was attributed, showed round holes (not shrapnel) shot in the pilot area. Sorry I don’t have any links handy on either of these, but I’m pretty sure this is correct.
Orwell: Where's the omelette?
thank you;
as i understand it, the hole size was not in contention. but weather it had been the pilot or a passenger: '...but in a sealed coffin, that even family members were refused to open.'
is that perhaps a malaysian custom? is the truth out there somewhere?
The family was furious
and the government protested. The holes in the photo were in the cockpit and looked perfectly round.
Orwell: Where's the omelette?
as pluto &
eric zuesse remind us, the holes in the cockpit were likely from machine guns on the ukrainian fighter jet sent to make sure the ukie buk missiles had (omg) killed the plane, which if i'm getting it right (a big IF) was changing direction as it went down. my apologies for not getting all the moving parts and claims right on this thread.
but the 21st century wire shows charts and evidence that the flight crew was ordered to change course by the air traffic control tower (as per the later censored bbc plus recordings).
Many believed that a Ukraine fighter jet
...was involved in the downing of MH17, which was the opinion of many aviation experts and others, who found bullet holes in the cockpit, wings, and fuselage. This in addition to Buk damage.
Recordings were captured by multiple sources of a frightened and stressed Ukrainian pilot, who radioed, "I shot the wrong plane!" He sounded as if he was commanded to shoot down a military target plane and was misled into shooting a passenger jet. That pilot, named Voloshyn, later committed suicide.
The typical recollection of the incident is:
That would also account for Buk damage to the Boeing, as well as fighter machine gun damage to the cockpit.
You can find many references to this incident along with transcripts of the conversation between the fighter pilot and the ground base.
that theory
certainly covers all the bases, doesn't it? good on ya, again, upside-down pluto.
A couple days after the shootdown
A couple of day after the shootdown Russia, as reported in RT, held a press conference. Russian radar revealed that in the minutes before the airliner was hit two Ukrainian fighter planes accompanied MH-17, as the flight path changed from a more easterly route to a more southerly route, over the combat zone.
Russian radar could have been easily disproven if the US or Ukraine had released radar or satellite photos of their own. US spy satellites are good enough to see if the soldier who fired the BUK had shaved that morning. Even though John Kerry (lacrosse teammate of Robert Swan Mueller III in private school) said that the US had proof as to who shot down the airliner neither he nor anyone else in the US hierarchy ever released the information. The recordings of control tower conversations with the airline up until the attack also are missing (either "lost" or classified, your choice of story). Besides, no one in the Western media is interested enough to ask for them.
As someone else has pointed out, when there is a possible false flag, look for motive. MH-17 did not do anything for the Russians but get them more demonized. But it served the fascist state of Ukraine and the US.
There are any number of other issues. Russia used to make BUK batteries but have had much more advanced anti-aircraft weaponry for decades. They no longer have BUKs in service. But Ukraine, as a former Soviet Republic does. In fact, they had an estimated twelve to seventeen of these BUK batteries in the battle zone. Since the rebels of Donbass didn't have any air force, you wonder what purpose they served in battle.
I addressed this in my essay about Russiagate a couple of years back.
i never found zuesse's
video confessions from the snipers at maidan (i assume ukrainians firing on protestors in front of the trades union building that was eventually...burned to the ground.
but this?
one of his links went to ‘MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag’ July 25, 2014, 21stcenturywire.com
a great (and lengthy) collaborative investigation by 21st century wire. thanks, obomba, thanks, tulsi, thanks Pierre and vickie nuland. and even the new guy can't control his neo-nazis. but then again, at least yulia tymoshenko didn't win.
but NATO will add them to the roster soon, which is one of the reasons that the atlantic council had recommended him: to root out poroshenko's oligarchs' corruption.
no date given, but:
according to the jerusalem post, it must have been in the final days of april, 2014.
i found it,
but i almost wish i hadn't it's sooooo long and full of twists and turns, news reports, videos, but in general the theme is that mikhail saakashvilli hired them, then stiffed them.
‘The “Snipers’ Massacre” in Kiev—Another False Flag?’, January 13, 2015, granvillepost.com, eric zuesse
you may remember him best john Mccains buddy: 'today we are all georgians'? like ahmed chalabi, he's the proverbial bad penny who keeps returning in whatever guise needed (after expulsions), and the big news this week is that zelenskiy's reinstated his ukrainian citizenship after promising to give up his former ambitions and work with the new prez.
good gawd all-friday.
How to Discern the Truth On Controversial Issues
The JIT assembled by Ukraine - one of the chief suspects in the incident - not surprisingly chose to accept the Rube Goldberg story concocted by Bellingcat to incriminate Russia.
Bellingcat claims to be an open-source investigative body. It is funded indirectly by Deep State actors. Whenever the Deep State has a fanciful narrative it wishes to sell, either to bash Russia or to further the presumed interests of Israel, Bellingcat takes the Deep State's preferred conclusion and concocts a chain of "evidence" to "prove" the conclusion. In this way, Belllingcat has "proved" that MH17 was shot down by the Russians, that Assad "gassed his own people" in East Ghouta, Khan Sheikhoun, and Douma, and that Russian intelligence agents were responsible for the Skripal poisoning.
If the Deep State wants to sell an idea that has real evidence behind it - that is indeed a fact - it doesn't need Bellingcat. So to discern the truth on any controversial issue on which Bellingcat has rendered a judgement, just determine what Bellingcat's conclusion is - and believe the exact opposite.
Mark F. McCarty
it's just so,
which is why i'd bolded eliott 'iggins' & friends' bellingcat so often in the OP. it really is pretty fun to hit their twitter account. oddly enough, or maybe not...on the 'you might like' on the right sidebar is christopher miller (of the kyiv post) whom amy goodman has on before.; just sayin'. : )
2 grisly ones from RT this a.m.
‘Euromaidan activist with neo-Nazi links joins Facebook as public policy manager’, RT.com, 4 Jun, 2019 (w/ a photo captioned: A protester throws a petrol bomb at the trade union building in Odessa May 2, 2014
‘Odessa massacre probe drags on 3yrs after over 40 anti-coup activists burnt alive in Ukrainian city’, RT.com, 2 May, 2017
(the rest is harder to read and remember the descriptions of the event)
Ukrainian military shoots down commercial planes
US military blows up commercial tankers.
Thank heavens there is a strong international system of justice. /s
question everything
there seems to be
an unwritten law of international justice when the US Empire is involved: 'Justice is for our allies who behave exceptionally, not for our enemies whose deeds must be punished'.
and when an empire is in the throes of dying, enemies are everywhere, and when not as visible, they construct them however they can. this is the new roman empire.