WayOfTheBern noticed our Bernie debate

I happened to notice that two of the top threads in the subreddit WOTB were essentially about C99P.
There is: Demanding Perfection Ain't It, Chief. Blind Defense Ain't It, Chief.
And the most popular thread: I Used to Support Bernie But.....If you're "Over" Bernie because he hasn't spoken up for Julian, then you were never much of a supporter no matter what you say.

Caucus 99 has a bunch of angry posters who claim they are no longer with Bernie because he hasn't spoken up for Julian. I've seen traces of that at wotb. I do not know if they are concern trolls, insecure, or simply rotten human beings. But this discourse supports the DNC, not WOTB.

On Caucus 99, A wise poster named Wally has a brilliant quote from Sun Tzu's The Art of War:

"Victorious warriors win first and then they go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."

Keep your eyes on the prize, please, people.

Let's all help Bernie WIN first and then fight all the battles we care about.

I didn't read most of the comments because I don't have that kind of time.
Instead I'll give my two cents on the subject.

First of all, whether you are "done" with Bernie or not depends on your values.
So you need to be open to their opinion if someone disagrees with you.
While the Assange issue is important to me, standing up to Wall Street and the MIC is much more important. You are free to disagree.

Secondly, we all need to acknowledge that no one here knows exactly what Bernie thinks about the Assange situation. Or any situation that he hasn't given his opinion on.
He probably will issue a statement at some point.

The real issue here, as I see it, isn't so much Bernie, as it is the Democratic Party.
People that are "done" with Bernie have universally felt betrayed by the Dems. And they are right to feel that way.
Many here were fooled by Obama. I wasn't, but I get how being betrayed makes you skeptical. You should be.

So IMHO, the question is "Is Bernie any different?"
Some here openly say "no".
To them I will repeat my comment from yesterday:

"My point is that if your opposition is going batshit crazy about people who you think are insufficiently strident, then maybe you need to step back and reasses the situation.

It's something I learned from economics - humility. It doesn't matter if you "are right". If the markets say you are wrong, then you are wrong.

In politics, your opposition gets a vote too. Even when they are "wrong".
The political environment is relative. It's part ideology, and part reality."

Bernie isn't a "lesser evil". If he was then TPTB wouldn't be fighting him so hard.

Even if Bernie gets elected he will disappoint a lot of people.
He will have very few allies and a lot of enemies, so getting his reforms passed will be hard. Plus I can see the ruling elite intentionally crashing the economy just to discredit him.
That's assuming they don't cheat him, or shoot him first.

So what's the point then?
Well, because fighting the corrupt ruling elite is justification in itself.
If they don't want Bernie to win, then I support Bernie.
Or to put it another way, "Because Fuck Them."

Also, you never know. Sometimes it works out.
I messaged someone this the other day:

"My preference is to be as positive as you can without ignoring reality.
Recognize that sometimes the good guys win, and even when the good guys lose the fight is often still worth fighting.
Accept that life itself is a losing battle (we are all going to die), so we all need to learn how to fight unwinnable battles with grace, dignity, and pride. There is a tragic beauty in a hopeless cause."

I should add that the journey matters as much as the destination.

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Comments

Tried it out for a little while, but didn't much care for the format. The people there seemed to be speaking a different language than I did, often. Maybe that's because there are more young people there, or maybe I just didn't learn the jargon well.

I haven't sent money to anybody so far this cycle, but still think Bernie is the best option in the presidential race. Not so much because of Bernie personally, or because I don't have quibbles with a number of his positions. I still think Bernie represents the best avenue to flipping the power relationships in Washington, at least to a far greater degree than anyone else offers. He won't do everything I want, and he will get bogged down in Washington bullshittery. But if a Bernie Sanders campaign can steamroll whatever meatpuppets the Democratic establishment throw at him, and can dispatch Trump, then we have a new politics we don't have now. A Bernie election opens possibilities I don't see available now, and that's why I'm still in his corner. I don't know how else to do that in the short timeframe we have to work in.

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gulfgal98's picture

@Dallasdoc as always. Smile

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"I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~Dr. Cornel West

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." John F Kennedy

@gulfgal98
Hello good friend! I still read here sometimes, just don't feel like writing much these days.

I hope you're doing fabulously!

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@Dallasdoc
but it appears that we are in the minority on c99p.
Which is ironic because c99p basically came from the Great BernieBro Purge.
Now pro-Bernie is a minority position on c99p.
I can't help but think Jill Stein is next.
I have to wonder if c99p will one day have a purge.

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@gjohnsit

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@gjohnsit I haven't found any online community where I feel like I fit in well, and after years of flame wars elsewhere I don't really want to argue online anymore. Many people here seem more skeptical even than I am, and I certainly don't blame them for feeling that way. Lily Tomlin once said something to the effect of, no matter how cynical you get it's impossible to keep up.

I'm in more of an observational mode these days, watching the conservative vs. progressive battles in the House, and rolling my eyes at a lot of the kabuki that's already infested the presidential race. The media is as awful and distracting as ever. Washington fiddles while the planet burns. I'm glad I'm not young anymore, and wonder if I'm old enough to miss the really bad stuff to come. Young people are going to have to do the heavy lifting now, and I'm somewhat encouraged by the fact that many of their leaders take no shit whatsoever. That's what we need. Young people give me what little hope I retain, and I see the value of Bernie's campaign as a conduit for them to learn how to seize power. That alone is a better argument than I can find for anybody else.

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@gjohnsit I would love to hear what you have to say about Howie Hawkins!
From what little I have read about him, he appears to be the real deal, and has a plan to make the Green Party more influential.

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I wont be again. Yeah, you will be. And if you dont get behind Bernie, you will be burning yourself.

Meanwhile the CIA is literally posting here and elsewhere trying to discourage you from voting in your own interests.

Dont do their work for them.

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snoopydawg's picture

@Battle of Blair Mountain

deleted with apologies to BoB and the site.

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America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@snoopydawg

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@JtC
That's just straight Not Cool.

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@gjohnsit

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Amanda Matthews's picture

@JtC
people being dismissive and rude toward others here personally if they don’t support a particular candidate, and what happens? EXACTLY what we’re talking about. Snoop isn’t the only ‘culprit’ here. She obviously responded not only to the snide, condescending ‘tone of voice’ of the poster, but also to the obvious (but unspoken of course) insinuation that people are just too damn stupid for their own good so they need to get in line and do what the smart kids say or else the dumbasses will be sorry because they will have destroyed the whole damn country. Or something.

Crap. Haven’t we seen this movie before?

I wish you could ‘outlaw’ any and all talk about the election for a while. Like maybe a year or so. At least.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

@Amanda Matthews
I'll close the site down for a year and a half, wouldn't that be ironic.

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Amanda Matthews's picture

@JtC
Too bad that everyone is so eager to jump down everyone’s throats. First thing I wondered is “who are these people who are trying to brainwash everyone? We’re infested with trolls?” Then I laughed when I saw her sock puppet post because it seemed funny, like this place is a hotbed of political intrigue or something. Maybe I’m stupid (but I don’t think so if I do say so myself), but everyone always looks for something to freak out about anymore. They don’t ask or wait for explanations and always assume the worst. Sometimes they’re wrong.

As for my suggestion, I wasn’t necessarily joking. It’s no doubt a pain in the ass, but you know this is nothing compared to what’s coming. Maybe you should hire a baby sitter. Or a hit man. Set up a gofundme to cover expenses.

SILVER LINING: This is NOTHING compared to some of the unnecessarily mean and spiteful behavior I’ve seen lately on the internet. And I think all this crazy is weaning me off the net. So it’s not all bad.

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3 users have voted.

I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

@Amanda Matthews
don't think for one second I haven't thought about making my life much simpler and closing this site down.

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Amanda Matthews's picture

@JtC @JtC
a little ‘tetched’ in the head if you hadn’t. And that’s not how you strike me.

EDIT: now/not

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

snoopydawg's picture

@JtC

You think it's okay for someone to say this?

Meanwhile the CIA is literally posting here and elsewhere trying to discourage you from voting in your own interests.

Isn't that basically saying that some accounts here are sock puppets or trolls? This also reflects back on you as to who you let join. But if you feel it's over the top I'll delete and apologize.

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America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@snoopydawg
you accusing another member of being a sockpuppet.

Honestly, I'm getting sick of the fucking acrimony around here lately. The shitweasels over at DKos have to be loving every minute of it.

And before anyone thinks it: No, Bernie is not my guy.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@JtC

I don't give a damn whether Bernie is your guy or not--and I mean that in a spirit of friendship, not a snarky way.

Everybody knows what I think about Bernie and what I think about voting and why I won't support him this time.

As far as I'm concerned, who you support for President is your choice. Even if I disagree with it I can do so without making a character attack on you.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
who anyone supports or doesn't support. But I do care about this site. Some folks will claim I'm taking sides, I made that statement to cut the head from that snake before it reaches the babies crib.

Did you see the image in snoopydawgs' post before it was removed?

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@JtC to a comment that your site "literally has CIA posting here", but it is your site, your rules, and your reaction to the image, and everyone of us has a life experience that is unique, and different interpretations on many things is a given.
The CIA posting here comment is not...nice.
Election season on a political blog is always contentious, but we have other things here to talk about.

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@on the cusp
comment above, or did you miss it?

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@JtC @JtC My point being, responding to it (as Snoopydawg did with the image) with humor was fairly measured. You and I interpreted the same thing oppositely.
I think the episode has passed the "sell by" date.
It's all good.

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@on the cusp
I didn't interpret it as humorous. I interpretef it as a dickhead response to a dickhead comment.

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@JtC I deal with this all the time in my profession. Was it self defense or was it aggression?
Can't tell you how often there are hung juries.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@JtC

I was trying to reassure you.

I don't think you're "Bernie's guy" and I wouldn't care if you were.

As for the image, no, I didn't see it. I came late to the fight, as usual. I need to click on the site more often rather than clicking on it less often and then hanging around for a long time. I'm always playing catch-up.

As for caring about the site, so do I. We'll talk more in PM.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

@Battle of Blair Mountain It’s hard to keep up anymore.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Dr. John Carpenter

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

SnappleBC's picture

...in the way this quote seems to imply

I Used to Support Bernie But.....If you're "Over" Bernie because he hasn't spoken up for Julian, then you were never much of a supporter no matter what you say.

I was never "with him". I was sort of hoping he was with me, however. I can't honestly conceive of loyalty to a politician in that way. Heck, I'm not sure if I can conceive of "unconditional loyalty" under ANY circumstance.... not even to my wife much less Sanders. The issue with him supporting so many establishment narratives is that it calls into question whether he is, in fact, with ME or is he with the establishment.

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

Strife Delivery's picture

I did see the WotB post and well, it was kind of pathetic.

I'm seeing in real time the formation of identities that the very same people cried out about.

The people who yelled out about the fandoms of Obama and Clinton are now doing that with Bernie.
The people who yelled out about the cries of purity from Obama and Clinton fans are being replicated by Bernie fans.
The people who yelled out about the garbage "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" are recycling the exact same line.

I'm seeing in real time certain segments of his base transforming into the very things they hated just 3 years ago. And the thing is, they don't see it at all.

With regards to the OP by gjohnsit:

Bernie isn't a "lesser evil". If he was then TPTB wouldn't be fighting him so hard.

TPTB are fighting him in a sense simply because they don't want to give an inch of power.
FDR made them give 3 inches of power; he allowed the capitalism to live and that meant giving a few morsels back. Quickly after that, TPTB went and began dismantling it. It was embarrassing to them and they won't let it happen again.

So now that Bernie is going through the same motions of once again saving capitalism, they don't want to do that. Because that means they would have to give up 3 inches of power. The Dems and Repubs would make sure that they keep all their power; Bernie wants them to give up 3 inches.

What we need is to dismantle the capitalist state so that they have no power at all.

I mean, TPTB tried to have FDR removed through a coup and he was saving capitalism, he was saving them.

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@Strife Delivery

What we need is to dismantle the capitalist state so that they have no power at all.

I'm all in. How do we achieve that? How long will it take?

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k9disc's picture

how can it not be infected with the Cult of Personality?

@Strife Delivery

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

on and re-argued in another venue. It means that C99 is producing writings that get people to think and express their own views.

What I love and continue to love about this site is the total lack of discussion about how to ban someone for offering a differing opinion. We don't (as far as I know) have a Wee Mama "welcoming" committee of hall monitors that go screaming to ADM when they get their feelings hurt (as Christopher Hitchens said, "When someone tells me I've hurt their feelings, I say 'I'm still waiting to hear what your point is'").

I'm still with Bernie, but with a few more reservations than I had the first time. I hated that he went to meet Pope Francis. I'm not happy he hasn't supported Assange. Hell, I was very unhappy when he went to stump for Hillary!. However, I dragged out my Bernie shirt and my signs and buttons, and I'm really to go. And if he doesn't win the nomination, I'm ready to vote for Stein again. I will NOT ever vote for anyone, Dem or not, who I think is a corporation hugging, DNC, Obama type. Hillary was all that with the added bonus of being a corrupt liar.

So while I don't agree with walking away from Bernie now, I'm fine with people expressing that. They do bring up good points sometimes.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

"My point is that if your opposition is going batshit crazy about people who you think are insufficiently strident, then maybe you need to step back and reasses the situation.

It's something I learned from economics - humility. It doesn't matter if you "are right". If the markets say you are wrong, then you are wrong.

In politics, your opposition gets a vote too. Even when they are "wrong".
The political environment is relative. It's part ideology, and part reality."

Except that weren’t we loudly informed by the opposition that John Kerry, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton all had “the most liberal voting record in the Senate” when they just happened to be running for President? Perhaps your statement needs some sort of qualifier to account for artificially inflated market values?

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is a sub par human being.

During the last primary, a group of posters, tweeters and journalists pretended to be pro-Bernie. I knew from the outset that they were pretending, but I didn't know why. Then, though, they started the "Bernie lost me when {he did X}{his supporters did X}" bs and I got their motives.

Those people were indeed never supporters of Sanders and simply dishonest from the jump. Related imposters belonged to the the De Blasio contingent: "I will not endorse/support Hillary until I am totally satisfied she's "progressive." "Oh, look. Now, I'm satisfied." Both were so prevalent that orchestration from the Clinton campaign was highly likely, although these were not the Brockettes, but people with whom I'd been familiar for years.

Others were genuine supporters of Sanders initially, but, at some point between 2015 and now, saw one or more things they could not live with. Deciding your conscience or your gut no longer allows you to support a politician doesn't make you a bad person or mean your support never really existed.

Still others went from "1000%" supporters of Sanders, to "He's not as great as I thought at first, but I'm still with him because he's the best of a bad lot." Nothing is wrong with these people as human beings, either.

Disagreement is fine, but I think we need to stop attacking our fellow leftists, mostly fellow posters, personally because they don't agree with us in every particular or because they find themselves unable to support the candidate we support. The left, bu which I mean people appreciably left of Obama, is fractured enough as it is.

Is a person for curbing global warming? Does he or she have a heart for those in need? Things of that kind should unite us. We should not let politicians divide us.

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