On Content and Format
First, thanks to Nightprowlkitty for making the following illuminating comment in the essay I Don"t Need No Stinking Content:
If you are missing Daily Kos it isn't because of the "community" there. It's because of the software. There is nothing like it on the innertubes. It is addictive. If you really want to understand Markos, study what the software does to your mind. You can find Markos in that software (for good or ill, I'm not making value judgments). It is much more powerful than threats of banning, trolling, bullying or even inspiration.
Boy did that comment strike home! I can't say I miss the community that much since it was mostly comprised of the Jets and the Sharks. I am very happy to be a guest here, and I'm hoping to become a longtime resident. This blog and website will shake out what it wants to be and how big it wants to be and what the community zeitgeist will be.
First of all, this blog was already existent with a core membership before lots of people, including myself, swam over to it as a lifeboat while our former mothership was hitting the iceberg of censorship. That's why I refer to myself as a guest. The community already here has been amazing and welcoming and hospitable beyond belief, passing out internet blankets and sandwiches. It's helpful that so many names are already recognizable to one another, so it's like moving to a different neighborhood but in the same town. To me it's an even nicer neighborhood because it's NOT tied to a political party or one public figure or the ethos of one particular owner overseer. Check, check and check.
Now let's talk about format and how format influences a website's content. I have belonged to three what are considered "major" blogs - Democratic Underground, Firedoglake and Daily Kos which had three very different formats. The software was a huge part of both the successes and shortcomings of all three sites and it definitely impacted the interactions.
I'll take them in order.
Democratic Underground has by far the best platform I've seen anywhere on the internet for a "Conversational" format. It's broken up into forums so a person can immediately go to an an area of particular interest. The vast majority of posts there are short observations or questions or comments. Posts that excite a lot of comments keep rising automatically to the top of the forum every time a new comment is added. A thread can exist there for days, weeks, months as long as interest in the topic exists. Threads are collapsible so it's easy to see the comment and reply ladder. Members can give recommendations to a post, which when it garners enough, is promoted to "the Greatest" page. Democratic Underground doesn't have that many "long form" writers, although it has a few. I see DU as an excellent "water cooler" format. It was a great place to be when Bush was in office and an extremely unpleasant place to be during the primaries and after Obama took office and when the first "disappointment" with many of his actions started setting in. There were swarms of enforcers who descended on the first WTF commenters. A lot of people, including myself, left voluntarily to escape the hive mind. I would bet that this same expansion and contraction of membership occurs on a regular basis there. I lurk there occasionally because they still have a lot of commenters who do a good job of scouring the internet for interesting reads on various topics.
Firedoglake started out great as the liberal rebel outpost. They had a strong front page and amazing community commenters who really went deep into the weeds of esoterica about different topics. David Dayan was their main front page reporter and he was brilliant about the mortgage and housing crisis. IMO all the best internet commentary in that regard was on that site during this time. The backend platform was pretty weak and they never built it up to be commensurate with the quality and quantity of writing they were getting from their members. As a community commenter, your post could be promoted to the front, and they had a featured section for the uprated articles, but writing fell off the screen very quickly. If you missed a day or two, you might have missed the most brilliant post in the world and you'd never find it, because the only tool was a generic search bar, no "older" link, if you can believe it. I left Firedoglake because of the lack of moderation. People were rightfully critical of President Obama, but some posters made absolutely shocking racial comments. I don't think this was the core membership, because it happened rather suddenly - I actually think it might have been ratf**kers trying to smear the site and its membership but oversight by the web owner and administration was completely missing in action. I had to leave in sadness and disgust.
Okay, then onto Daily Kos where I felt I really had found my permanent residence. Daily Kos is unusual in that it definitely promotes Long Form writing often with research, links, and then individual commentary or editorial comment. Even the off-the-cuff diaries over there tend to be longish. The conversation and snappy dialog occurs in the comments. Writers get their puppy treat when something gets promoted to the Rec List. I have no complaint with content or format at Daily Kos. What I do have a problem with is censorship and hive mind and anonymous flag ratings and loyalty oaths and roving gangs of flaggers and net nannies. Kos and DU share this problem and it all relates back to being affiliated with a particular political party, which I see as an insurmountable obstacle if someone wants to have free and unfettered conversation about the events of the day on the intertubes.
In summary, I think some blend of conversational and long form is optimal, and I'm already seeing this here. I think breaking into different forums is helpful at some point in the future when it simply becomes too taxing to keep up with the various conversations. I like it when really good essays are spotlighted in some way, whether through recommendations of the members or front-paged or whatever. Hopefully this place will never be invaded by awful people, but it's good to prepare and formulate what the response will be when/if it happens.
Comments
Ad hoc attacks are the problem, I think
As long as comments are about the issues, however much we may disagree, we're probably OK. No?
Ad hominem?
I think ad hoc means devoted to a particular topic.
But ad hominem means per google:
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"vicious ad hominem attacks"
Ad hominem attacks are what cause blog wars - attack the person and not the position, as you say, so we are in agreement.
Sometimes we literally do have a visceral dislike for someone based on their past behavior and you really want to say "Everyone knows you suck!" but it's not helping anything. Plus, not falling into it yourself infuriates them when you don't rise to the bait. It's a constant struggle.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
Right! Thanks!
This is a repost but I think we need a Quick Hits section
along with the Community Content.
Long essays in CC and others in QH's. I wish I had time to do long essays but I have a wife 3 kids and a dog but there are times that I want everyone on the site to see something I think is important to our community and I don't want to clog up CC.
I'd also like to see Quick Hit's be used by CC writers to make long essays. I'd like to see community created essays. Something like this-
I post a link to an article about the Prison Industrial Complex in Quick Hits. Another user posts information that relates to my post and so on and so forth. At some point someone decides to post an essay on the PIC and they search QH's tag "PIC" and use the information to put together a cohesive essay.
I'd also like to see Quick Hits be filtered like the rec list at GOS, with the QH's with the most activity going to the top of the list. A simple weighted formula like (Rec=3 points, Comment=2 points, Click=.5 points)
Go c99p go!
Re: 'Quick Hits' comment
For now, the QH niche seems to be taken care of by the Kossacks for Sanders Reddit. Not just election info there, but links to articles etc.
Posting QH's there would give them more exposure, too. Then links w brief comments could be dropped into an Open Thread here.
Good morning
The difference in the software from dailykos and everywhere else is yuuuge. Their software is expensive and employs a team of IT folks. It is hard not to miss it. After that, nada. I don't like its punitive community moderation system. I think it is divisive. I don't like the fact that I am not able to speak freely. I am not a partisan. My number one challenge is trying to get the Democrats under control, let alone Republicans.
I posted the comment below last night. I am posting it here because I think you all might find the info helpful.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I completely get what you are saying dkmich
Please know that I wasn't trying to say "I want this!" but merely to discuss what I saw on the formatting end that either helped or hurt a blog and how they shaped conversation.
I think this blog is pretty darn good. It works with both short and long form and it also provides a place for members to consolidate their posts to refer back to - critical in my eyes.
If people want this place to become another "major" blog, then money and time would have to be invested. And I am not presuming that is everyone's or even anyone's goal. I do think the moderation issue will probably pop up.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
dkmich, that comment should be used in a FAQ or
Intro for new arrivals! Great, succinct explanation! Thanks!
I think that's a great idea
I really like how you envision it - It's exactly a blend of water cooler and long form.
I don't know of any website with a format like that and I'm sure it might be a complex and expensive undertaking. DU and Daily Kos have been building their backends for years.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
Banning and sockpuppets
Every site I have attended has had a community guidelines section that was the local rules intended to protect both the site and the folks that post there. Every site gets spammed with advertisers, porn, racism - people who are vomiting their mental illness over the intertubes. There has to be a sanitation system. I don't spend too much time here but I did see one comment obliterated with "modified by administration" as the header, all content removed, and lots of outraged comments by members after. That was just one comment - the member is still here and can do it again.
One site I hung out on had team of moderators that evolved as the site grew, and as the site broke conversations into like minded issues there were two or three mods per section. Mods were volunteer and somewhat elected by the membership. The community offered suggestions as to who they were willing to accept rulings from, and then they went into the pool. On the admin side there were levels of seniority etc and mods that had success at general peacekeeping, plus longevity, got moved to senior mods and these folks would discuss the most thorny issues and made the final selections.
So yeah - we need a police force to keep things hunky dory, and preferably with nice people who know how to step into a pissing match and wave the rule book in a supportive manner before handing out the penalties.
And penalties began with warnings, 3 warnings over a fixed time period got a time out, time outs got longer and longer based on infractions, and sometimes ended in complete bans.
And the very best posters all had warnings and time outs. They knew the game and simply took the bull by the horns as some people play by the rules but are still vomiting their mental illness over the interweb so they would take one for the team and call them on it.
Now - I am not advocating this particularly - it was high overhead - but I do know a system has to be in place and I think it is best to have it up front so everyone knows what is acceptable. What the point of the forum is, the rules to maintain good standing. I thought Daily Kos was bizarre in how it managed this. It felt very fascist from day one - Kos did what the fuck he liked, and then he let any trusted member play mod allowing gangs to form. And I think that system cost him a shit ton of money in programming and it was stupid from the outset in my opinion.
"If we all threw our problems in a pile and saw everyone else's, we'd grab ours back" - Regina Brett
Great comment, Muddy Boots!
Thanks for grabbing the bull by the horns!
This is probably the next software upgrade needed
For good or bad, the Rec'd list on DKos was a feature we all appreciated as various times.
With so many users on C99P, we could use that now.
If we do it, we need to be VERY open
about how essays get there.
I think transparency is far more important than fears about people "Gaming the System". I personally don't mind not being on the front page all the time, because I'm a daily author and folks know where to go if they want to read me.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Thanks Phoebe and folks...
a few thoughts.
Keep in mind that we've grown from a small mom and pop blog to a fairly good size overnight. That caught us by surprise and we are dealing with it behind the scenes. As far as admin duties it's gone from a casual part time hobby to a full time job.
Community moderation is being addressed, you'll be hearing about it soon. Believe me we are not naive enough to believe that there wont be problems. But I do have to say that I am very proud of how this now over 1,000 members have conducted themselves so far, but surely that will change. As the final arbiter of moderation issues I'll tell you this. I'm one of the most tolerant and fair minded people that you'd want to meet, but rest assured that if needed, swift action will be taken, the well will not be poisoned.
The site will evolve, there will be additions and improvements. Right now I work as a team of one and as soon as the dust settles a little bit I can turn my sights toward the site format itself. I take in all recommendations I see in that regard.
Moderation techniques at certain sites were set up the way they were to manipulate the members into click bait tribalism, to drive up site revenue. To me that is clear. We have tried to avoid that here by only using a thumbs up with no recognition as to who voted or not. There is a thumbs down that could be installed but even that could devolve into a weapon so we opted for a simple thumbs up to avoid the punji pit of manipulative mind twisting that you speak of in this fine essay. With just the thumbs up, if someone posts something not generally liked by the members, that dislike will be manifest in the lack of upvotes, that in itself sends a potent message without the vitriol.
Thanks for this great essay Phoebe, there's more to come from the management as it's formulated.
Thank you, Phoebe. This expalins things really well.
Resilience: practical action to improve things we can control.
3D+: developing language for postmodern spirituality.
Thank you for this great essay, Phoebe
Your ability to analyze and write cogently was one of the reasons I had hoped you would join us.
I just want to echo what dkmich and JtC have posted above with some of my own thoughts as one of the original members here.
When we started this journey nearly two years ago, it was an idea of trying to start a site that was non-partisan and focused upon issues from the left perspective. We did not even know how we were going to do it at first. Probably the first iteration was a Google group which proved to be a very awkward platform for anything. Then we tried hiring someone to develop our site. But that was not without some issues and some people lost interest as we were trying to develop a usable platform. Finally, JtC has described how we got to where we are now. Thankfully, JtC had some experience and was able to develop the one you see right now on his own. So the birthing process was long.
Then literally overnight, we quadrupled our membership in over one short weekend. So while we had tried to grow this site over the last year and we able to grow incrementally, the tsunami we experienced two weekends ago overwhelmed all of us. Under JtC and Joe's leadership, we have been discussing the improvements that we hope to have for the future.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
For what little it is worth, I was, back at the beginning of
time, a moderator in a couple of forums on Compuserve. There, different forums had different rules and standards, varying degrees of strictness and numbers of rules. I discovered that it seemed to be pretty much the consensus among moderators that less is better. Unless it was a closed, private business forum dedicated to a specific business, a bit of freewheeling give and take and, within reason, the right to digress and ramble, worked best to provide a comraderie, smooth continuous informati0n flow and the exchange of ideas and information. It was, in the forums where I worked, very difficult to get "banned", but certain content could and would be hidden, usually ad hominem attacks (strictly interpreted, eg "That is stupid" was allowable, "you are stupid" wasn't) It also generally seemed to ber the case that the fewer and more general the rules, the better (with exceptions). Lastly, structure, such as sections within each forum, somewhat evolved so as to facilitate the ease of use (you can divide a cookbook up by type of food -deserts, soups, main dishes, etc. or ingredients, or breakfast, lunch, dinner or whatever. byu alphabetically by the "title" of the recipe serves no purpose and is simply a distraction).
So far, I really like the way this site has come off and the way it is being run, and don't see any big urgency for a lot of formal changes without first going through a learning period of what it is like now that the membership has skyrocketed.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
That is the difference between being a dick and not...
"That is stupid" was allowable, "you are stupid" wasn't.
We are all capable of doing "stupid" stuff. It doesn't make us stupid. If we address the behavior and not the person, we should all be just fine.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
It's got to be incredibly exciting for you to watch your
project come so far.
And it sounds like it unfurled exactly as it was supposed to. You all should be really really proud. And you have attracted a great membership to build onto what you already had. I don't see how things can't just get better and better.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
Not being beholden to the Party
imho is a key here, at least in the domain of avoiding censorship and free-thought. It avoids a lot of the problems, but in turn, can create a few if moderation is lacking. The reason I like this breakdown is that it lays bare the "history" of other websites, and it is always wise to heed the lessons of the past to better C99. Personally, I am highly impressed with the simplicity of this site, while still offering many of the tools we have grown used-to.
Excellent diary as always. Thank-you.
Progressive to the bone.