On voting and not voting
I want to address some misconceptions, and hopefully clear the air about a few things.
First all I want to say - I get it. I understand why someone wouldn't want to vote.
The system is rigged. It's obvious. By giving it your vote you are giving it legitimacy.
Why would you want to do that?
It's like gambling in a card game that you know is rigged ahead of time. It's throwing away time and money.
To many that's a full stop. There's no need to go further.
It makes perfect sense not to play.
So if I understand that, why do I support voting?
For three reasons:
1) It's not totally rigged. It's more like a Vegas casino, where the House wins 60% of the time. Not 100% of the time.
2) Not voting won't change anything. Just look at other nations where the opposition party calls a boycott of the elections. Lots of people still vote, and (here's the important part) the establishment, the media, and the majority of the public accepts the results in every single case. Legitimacy is simply assumed.
3) The establishment wants you to vote for a major party. But if you don't do that, they want you to disengage and not vote. The one thing they don't want you to do is vote third party and be politically involved/active.
Now if those three reasons aren't good enough for you, I can understand. I won't hold it against anyone that does the "full stop" on a rigged system.
But don't hold it against me for thinking otherwise.
The second thing I want to address is the Dems and I.
I would think that the dozens of essays I wrote denouncing the Democratic establishment would have been enough, yet I'm still accused of gaslighting for the Dems.
I think that accusation is hilarious! I honestly can't take it seriously.
Not only have I not voted Democrat since 1996, but I got banned from the GOS for essentially being insufficiently loyal.
If anyone on GOS still remembers me, your accusation of me gaslighting for the Dems would be met with stunned confusion.
Also, I made a statement that there are individuals in the Democratic Party worth voting for.
That statement was challenged, but it shouldn't have been. There are always exceptions to the rule, and this year there are more exceptions than normal.
For starters, there are the DSA candidates, who have won roughly 20 seats so far and counting.
They run as Democrats, despite having nothing in common with mainstream Dems.
Then there is the growing number of working class Dem candidates. This is a good, inspirational article about them.
Finally, we may indeed be past the point of no return. The system may be too corrupt to save.
We will find out if that is true one day.
But I also have read about the first Progressive Movement 1890-1920. It had to overcome very similar levels of corruption and wealth concentration (not to mention institutional violence).
To a certain extent, it made remarkable progress despite everything against it. There were countless stories of individual, working class heroics.
We are seeing a growing grassroots movement, very similar to the first Progressive Movement.
Are they doomed? Maybe. But I think it's an enormous disrespect to throw shade on them.
I have every intention of being a cheerleader for them. Please do me a favor and tolerate my cheerleading for these individuals, and don't make the silly and nonsensical mistake of thinking that my supporting their fight against the Democratic establishment makes me a supporter of the Democratic Party.
I support policies and values, not party. If the Repubs had similar policies and values, I'd be talking about them.
Comments
Regarding authoritarian BS, one word:
Monsanto - killing off life to corner food monopolies.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Ellen North God yes. Or the
God yes. Or the fifty thousand wars we appear to be involved in. We the people apparently have no say in any of those. After all, we're only dying in them.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Damn, you're good! But we knew that.
US industry/billionaires can't take having any competition, especially as regards any other than their two purchased political parties - so they make damn sure no other parties can get anywhere near a chance.
If only a 'People's Party' could get in over the hurdles, a truly 'Fair Vote' system and the enforcement of clean elections with independent oversight could be installed, which would allow a 'People's Party' to get in to install a truly Fair Voting system and the enforcement of clean elections with independent oversight so that a 'People's Party' could get in...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
One Party government?
You just want to be the dictator.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
???
Just saying that a fair system set up to encourage multiple American voter choice of multiple candidates/parties not roadblocked from participation wouldn't be allowed to exist until there was an actual democratic government in a position to implement one.
But until there's a fair system set up, any party outside of the 'permitted' - and currently corporate/billionaire controlled - Two Party Trade-Off would need a miracle just to get into the running.
There's a vicious cycle set up.
Edit: and for those of us still hoping to replace the corruption rotting the US government, if not yet having seen one or more of these:
(The following title being perhaps a little optimistic, but optimistism being something needed.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE6iL-QK-Gg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlNYTPG8chY
(below, 5 rather interesting minutes of interviews with people waiting outside.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj7gWOJojeg
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Still pertinent old essay.
Here is an essay I published here in March of 2016. It is just as true today as it was then:
"I have just finished reading Nonconsensual “Democracy” and the Degradation of the American Electorate by M. G. Piety published in the March 7 issue of Counterpunch:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/03/07/nonconsensual-democracy-and-the-d...
It is a very well written and succinct exploration of the "lesser of two evils" conundrum. The competition between Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton makes this article so very pertinent for people like me. I'm 80 and was born and lived in a golden age for lower and middle class citizens. For the last forty years I have been fighting ineffectually against the rising power of oligarchy that has been at work since Franklin Roosevelt began the New Deal. The open warfare began with Ronald Reagan and accelerated under Clinton, both Bushes, and Obama. Now with Bernie Sander's candidacy I have some hope we can repair the damage. I don't know how tenuous that hope is but I have hope. That's important.
There is a discussion among progressives about whether or not to vote for Clinton if she wins the nomination because Donald Trump or Ted Cruz are waiting in the wings with a good chance of beating her. I have come to the conclusion that I cannot vote for her. Ever. I never voted for Bill either. My decision to vote for Nader has made people angry with me for years. The fact that Nader wasn't a spoiler as so many contend isn't much comfort when so few believe it. But the lesser of two evils has bothered me all this time because I've never been able to describe the problem adequately until now when Ms. Piety did it for me.
Here is a pertinent excerpt from her article:
“Voters are bombarded with propaganda to the effect that what they want is not possible. Many are so swayed by this propaganda that they can no longer think clearly about the issues to which it relates. The purpose of propaganda is precisely to circumvent rational thought. It works like a drug, depriving those it influences of autonomous judgment. Of course, people conclude, if these things were possible, then we would all do our best to see that they became actual, but, alas, they are not possible, so to work for them is a waste of time.
Not everyone is taken in by political propaganda. Some people know that not only are the political changes they want possible, they are genuine realities in other parts of the world. A special indignity is reserved for people who dare to keep their political wits about them despite the fact that they are bombarded with propaganda designed to undermine them. These people get to be fully conscious participants in their own degradation. Okay, respond the powers that be, you go ahead and vote your conscience, vote for someone who promises to bring about the kinds of changes you want. You know what will happen? You will get someone far, FAR worse than the “moderate” candidate you deem not good enough for you. The rest of the electorate, the sonorous voice continues, is not so forward thinking as you are. You will be "wasting your vote" on a candidate who doesn’t have a chance, and in that way, you will ensure that your worst political nightmares will come true.”
And that’s it. I’ve been looking for these words for a long time. Now I will continue to donate to Bernie and will vote my conscience in hope that a better day is at hand. More importantly, for whatever time I have left, I will vote for my candidates wherever they show up on the ballot.
Well, I can't vote for Bernie this time, but I sure as heck don't have to vote for the creeps the major parties put up. Even though California has loaded the dice, I'm finding some good people to vote for. I never waste my vote, I cast it.
-Greed is not a virtue.
-Socialism: the radical idea of sharing.
-Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
John F. Kennedy, In a speech at the White House, 1962
This is just an excellent comment, polkageist
It offers a constructive resource that can bring understanding to those who are uncertain about what is clearly going on. Thanks for the link to Nonconsensual “Democracy”. So many people are in deep denial about the parenthetical point of the title: (the Degradation of the American Electorate), that we have been unable to muster a serious national conversation about it in the United States. Of course, that is understandable since all the People's hopes for the future need to be vacated if they are to accept the challenge of that reality.
Our avoidance of the difficult and inconvenient truths about ourselves (and our planet) is the mechanism by which we are controlled by the special propaganda that the state broadcasts to us.
Ms. Piety notes the most insidious narrative of them all:
I recall when the Clinton campaign pounded that nail into the coffin of Bernie's hopeful campaign message about how Americans could live. Or, did they have Chelsea do that? They may have done so, because it would be such a no-brainer to pull off, when it comes to the American psychology.
Yep. The Aristocrats and their Deep State henchmen really have our number. Decades of propaganda and brainwashing have neutered us into surrender.
She then twists the knife:
Yes. We are the Putin operatives you've been worrying about.
Oh my god, Our Overlords were right! Donald Trump is the President.
I was meaning to address this at some point, so I will do so, briefly:
I've thought about this for years. Before Trump popped into existence, I despaired that the world would ever get off its collective ass and begin pulling their weight to evolve a vision for humanity; a utopia for all humans. This has been more than possible for a very long time.
So, when would the rest of the world step up and build a real, uncaptured Internet? They knew it was contaminated by US Intelligence and a safe and free Internet must be built as soon as possible. They also knew that the notion of using the fiat money of one nation as a global trading currency was a bad idea that had died a century ago — but they continued to prop it up because it was convenient. It was also convenient to let the US think it ruled the Seven Seas. They watched the US labor like officious thugs, posing and policing the waterways and spending our money to do so, while the world got a free ride. But the World took their time and let the mentally-deranged, US Totalitarians do all the heavy lifting.
They saw how America's easily-rigged pseudo-democracy made the morally corrupt war culture possible. They watched while the US spent all its treasure on murder weapons and foreign invasions. They saw the US waste the People's lives and money on wars while they sat back and quietly built their national and global infrastructures and strategized more modern forms of defense. We mocked and dismissed their alliances, partnerships, summits, and diplomatic milestones. But it was they who would fly into JFK to attend the UN and look out the windows of their taxis as they bumped along on the pot-holed, decaying freeway into Manhattan, staring out at the urban decay and blight that lined the roadways. Arriving at their mid-town hotels, they saw ever-increasing numbers of homeless and the destitute nearby. They watched the army of the working poor, all staring down at their devices as they made their way underground to the run-down subways at nearby Grand Central Station. This was the face that the United States showed to arriving world dignitaries because it is the only face that the US has left. The US corporatist regimes wasted all their post WWII glory on privatizing national assets for greedy cronies and funding the war profiteers who sold them dreams of bigger weapons and global supremacy. In their wake, the American Ruling Class left behind a dystopian inefficiency. You could feel public services spiraling down to hopelessness. This was the mood that emanated from underfunded local governments that were now housed in run-down rented buildings.
This is the face of Capitalism. This is what Donald Trump help make visible.
The world has seen this and they have heard it. They know what it is and they are well prepared. The change has begun. Without Trump, the World might have let the greedy fools who run this place continue on forever.
But what about us? Who is going to rescue the American people. Perhaps, once we are free of the Oligarchs and their cohort, we can rescue ourselves.
IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
If I could give this entire comment
A 100 upvotes, I would.
It is a disease that has afflicted those in power who are essentially steering our country into an iceberg.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Nice addendum to his comment
The UN already wrote a report on poverty in America, but he has just released another one. Unfortunately he lays the blame on Trump when we know that this America's trickling down into abject poverty started big time during Reagan's presidency. And then every president who came after him added their legislation on to Reagan's. Of course Trump's full on poop in our faces tac bill was the biggest transfer of wealth we've seen, but it's just one more part of the war on the American people.
The United Nations Just Published a Scathing Indictment of US Poverty
I've never been able to understand why people who have more money than they can ever spend money think that they should have the right to take even more money from the poor who are already living on the edge.
BTW, there's a coroner in Illinois who won't release people's bodies unless he gets $1,000 first. Too poor to get your loved ones body out of hock so you can get their death certificate? Too effing bad! Start a go fund me fundraiser! There are thousands of them from people begging for money to help keep their loved ones alive or to help pay for medical bills or funerals so good luck finding people to help get your loved ones out of the morgue. I think that this really shows how hideous this country is.
There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?
An amazing piece of writing
describing an appalling piece of work. Although, of course, the latter is really multiple, regarding both the perpetrators over the past decades and earlier - and the multiple disasters they've created, of lives, economies, societies, ecologies and the planet, to profit even more from.
I doffs me 'at to the Duke! (As usual, lol.)
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
"This is what Donald Trump help make visible."
and Hillary would have continued to hide with some more opaque veneer, as Obama did.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Conscious participants in our own degradation.
Degradation. Finally a word to go with the feeling of finding yourself in a cell surrounded by four stone walls and no trap door.
Thank you for a succinctly brutal deconstruction of the dilemma many of us faced during the last election, and why many of us will never vote for the LOTE.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
@Anja Geitz See, what's so ironic
See, what's so ironic is that I did vote in the last election, both primary and general. I voted in 2012, too. From about 1998-2012, in fact, I voted every election cycle. I didn't vote in the 2014 Congressional elections. Up until recently, I was not only a voter, but a frequent voter, and sometimes even what they call a supervoter (votes every time there's an election). In addition, I was one of the people trying to get other people to vote.
It was only this year that I tore up my voter registration card.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I have never voted for an R or a D
(for President...I have found reasons for some offices down the line). John Anderson, Ross Perot, Ralph Nader I think three times (?), Cynthia McKinney, and Jill Stein twice, now. I see no reason to change that practice any time soon.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
You're not alone.
Years ago, because of the lousy selection of Rs and Ds on the ballot, I voted for candidates based on their occupation as it was written in Spanish on the California ballot. I remember voting for an "empacador" because it has a rhythm and lilt that I like. Otherwise, I vote for the person not the party. I only registered as a Democrat to vote for Bernie Sanders. Otherwise, Nader, Stein, et. al. get my vote.
-Greed is not a virtue.
-Socialism: the radical idea of sharing.
-Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
John F. Kennedy, In a speech at the White House, 1962
@polkageist Here's a link to some
Here's a link to some progressive candidates running in California - https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/8hnhop/bkas_recommendatio.... Might be useful for you.
I'm still waiting
For California to count my vote for the progressive candidate I voted for in the last primary we had here.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
To this, a response of “Touché!” would not be out of place… n/t
Impressive work.
I can see that you have done our homework for us. Thanks. I changed a couple of my picks because of it.
-Greed is not a virtue.
-Socialism: the radical idea of sharing.
-Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
John F. Kennedy, In a speech at the White House, 1962
Applauds loudly, startling neighbours.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
The PTB want you to throw away your time and energy.
Especially after Dr. Stein's little Recount stunt, we may have to accept the fact that third parties, like every other party, is made of up politicians.
I have realized that I do not want to vote for politicians. I do not like politicians, and they do not like me. Neither of us thinks the other gives nearly enough money.
Voting requires trust. If you do not and cannot trust the results, participating in the system is akin to accepting the lies of someone because you are convinced that they'll come clean and do the right thing because they secretly WANT to do the good thing.
The PTB will carry on with or without our votes. The more they're forced to show their blatant manipulation, hopefully the more people will wake up.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
@detroitmechworks
From the email exchange between John Podesta and Robby Mook:
Don't worry about Bernie. We've got leverage.
Great! Where should we stick in the knife?
I see a system that runs largely on bribery and blackmail. Those it can't buy, it intimidates. It would take one hell of a person to stand up against it, something along the lines of a Thomas Drake, an Edward Snowden, or a Martin Luther King, because threats are liable to be levied not only against oneself, but also against loved ones.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
And some of us just write jokes about it.
like me.
Best I can do.
Well, at least for now.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
@detroitmechworks Please keep doing so.
Please keep doing so. You're helping me stay sane.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
To be frankly honest...
I almost always consciously try to avoid getting into these kinds of fights. It always feels to me to be a bit like this:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHHitXxH-us]
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
@detroitmechworks I kinda wish it
I kinda wish it were that. I'm afraid that the question of whether one believes in voting or not implies a much greater gap. It's a question of what you think your position in history is, what you think you're living in, whether there is hope and where it comes from.
That said, there's no reason everybody can't get along and just have discussions on this site. We've been doing it since the beginning.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
As one comlpletely on the fence
now regarding voting, and with friends who still see that as the only hope, I do get how painful it is to give up what I consider an illusion. That's why I will read gjhonsit's remarks as well as others and yeah, sometimes even I find myself hoping. To not vote at all, that too is a massive paradigm shift in this country, then add in the fact that those of us who see little hope to vote have no good concrete answer on how we change things by not doing it shy of total collapse or violence. Shit. So my take is I am willing to listen on both sides, and really, I'm so damned confused myself I can't honestly say what I will do going forward!
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
@lizzyh7 Interestingly
Interestingly enough, I don't think I've ever tried to get people not to vote. I've simply pointed out the obvious, but also horrible, facts about voting. My partner votes. I don't have a problem with her voting, though I think it's pointless. I don't have a problem with it because I know that she knows the facts and sees our situation clearly. After having seen those facts, she still finds reason to vote. That's fine, fine as in it doesn't even cross my mind unless she needs me to drive her to the polls.
The ongoing idea that anything is going to reform the Democratic party, on the other hand, is galling. It's galling that anybody still believes that. Why? Because it has been used as the hook that keeps people pouring their money and energy--both in short supply--into an organization which, for the past 40 years or so, has basically been a tool for short-circuiting dissent. This shit began, arguably, with McGovern around the time I was born. People have, arguably, been trying to reform the Democratic party and move it to the left since Ted Kennedy's presidential run in 1980. I was twelve. I am now fifty, and people are saying that we need more proof that reforming the Democratic party won't work, and that we should still try.
Because I believe in free speech and care about this community, I've stopped arguing about this topic. Those who don't agree aren't going to change their minds because of anything I say--I've said everything I've got to say. If they won't change their minds, they won't, and they have every right to keep expressing their views. So I agreed to stay out of gjohnsit's diaries about the Dems, and I did.
As for voting third party, I did so the last time there was an election. Stein's actions after the election disturbed me, and the fact that our electoral process is now under the jurisdiction of the Department of Homeland Security disturbed me more. I can't find a logical path to get from that fact to a belief that my vote makes a difference. That's why I tore up my voter ID this year.
I don't care whether or not people do the same, but I do care that my position--a "minority position," as gjohnsit informs me--is shared by so few. Again, it's like my feelings about my partner: I don't need her to join me in not voting, but I would be disturbed and distressed if she didn't see the same political reality I do. You can have your own opinion, but not your own facts. She sees the facts, and has a different opinion than I do about whether to vote. She's not voting because she believes voting will change anything.
Taking "the Department of Homeland Security controls our elections infrastructure"
and adding it
+
to "there is a great deal of obvious, unpunished fraud in our elections"
does not equal
"there's still hope for electoral change"
Anybody who disagrees needs to either disprove one of those two facts, or show me a logical path from those facts to that conclusion. Otherwise, what they believe is not rational. And that is what's disturbing to me: how many people are willing to abandon reason because reason shows them something horrible.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
a+b = c. (or not)
I would like to see this equation discussed.
apparently you don't want to do that.
fine.
please do not assume that I am Dem party reformer.
or that I am "willing to abandon reason."
that seems more like your position, to be honest.
imo,fwiw,ymmv.
Edit. Lest anyone misunderstand, the broken-hearted Reed is telling the woman who is leaving to take out insurance on him,since he will not survive without
her.
Kind of sweet,really. But you have to listen to what the man is saying.
@irishking I don't
I don't assume that at all. I don't think I was specifically thinking about you.
See, I myself fell into a generalized critique, and look what happened--you thought I was talking specifically about you. That's the problem with generalized critique, and that's exactly how I reacted to gjohnsit.
I have no problem with you and have always valued your comments.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
(No subject)
@irishking And
And actually, didn't I invite discussion? I actually invited people to disprove my conclusions.
Hell, I'd be happy if my conclusions were disproved.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
(No subject)
It is not rational
But I suspect what is behind that irrational hope is a very personal reason why so many people who have spent years invested in being politically active find it near impossible to let go.
I feel your frustration. It's like hearing your best friend tell you it's going to be different this time as she embarks an another failed romance with a married man.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Exactly! It's mostly worked so far!
There's a lot of stress about and that does take its toll; when you're feeling crushed and hopeless/anxious/justifiably afraid and/or angry in Bizarro World, it doesn't take much for the bit that unintentionally landed on top of the burden to be too much.
Even for people here, where the site discussion's pretty much based on any subject goes, as long as it's civil; different opinions, whether one agrees with them or not, are generally refreshing, and in any event, we're all going to have different opinions, being different people and all. But we are supposed to be a community...
It's just heartbreaking when anyone feels that they're being pushed off this life-raft, merely over having different outlooks, when they never would be...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Ellen North I know better
I know better. Nobody wants me to leave. However, it would be foolish to deny that gjohnsit has won this argument, and has the site on his side. He has said as much.
Given that, there is no point in my talking politics unless somebody asks me something. I'm not going anywhere, but I will continue to stick to my OT, which is mostly not political.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
can't make sense of this at all.
ymmv.
@irishking It may
It may actually make no sense, as I posted it when I was pretty upset.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Too true.
One may defy personal threats, but threats to vulnerable loved ones from those low enough to do that are completely different. And I do suspect that something of the sort explains some of Bernie's highly uncharacteristic behaviour.
Edit: damn, I've been missing my traditional letter-typos all day, up until now - unless I just failed to notice the others...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Ellen North I've always thought
I've always thought that was responsible for his behavior.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@detroitmechworks And then there's the
And then there's the outright fraud, which is never stopped and for which there are never any consequences.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
you speak for more than just you
You speak for more than just you here, gjohnsit. You have done an excellent job of elaborating my own position vis-a-vis voting, as well. My greatest political activity to date -- getting Gary Hart elected to the Senate that first time -- was also my greatest disappointment; his "The New Deal is dead" bullshit was a personal affront. Had I wanted a conservative, I would have volunteered, donated, and voted for an honest, open one. The Hart bait-and-switch hurt, badly.
I am reminded of the upshot of the prohibition levied by the Roman Catholic Church against voting by residents of the former Papal States, starting in 1870. This prohibition was maintained through the Papacies of Pius IX through Benedict XV, and a slice of that of Pius XI, whose Concordat with Mussolini (Lateran Treaty of 1929) ended it. Did the non-voting restore Papal rule over the City of Rome and its environs? No. Instead, the Masonics, Protestants, Socialists, and Communists -- those opposed to the Papacy -- were handed control of the former Papal States on a golden platter. Only once Pius XI ratified the Concordat did the Papacy regain any political influence in the former States that it once ruled by fiat. And this had more unpleasant consequences, too; the first use of the new influence was, unfortunately, used in favor of the Fascists. Only when Giuseppe, Cardinal Roncalli, was elected as Pope (now Saint) John XXIII did the Papacy begin to succeed in disassociating itself from that taint.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Thanks for that interesting - and instructive -
bit of history. Unfortunately, in this case, of course, people not voting are rather likely to be those who would have voted democratic socialist, rather than for religious-corporate or other Corporate-Right, whether being labeled as Repub or Dem...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Daily Kos style purge complete.
You win g.
Bye bye.
Dear Big Al, please do not go!
We are all entitled to our opinions and our choice of what we consider to be our favoured actions and this is the place where we can voice and discuss them without being censored and driven off into the wilds as a heretic for doing so. You'd be missed and you're needed!
We are all going to have dissenting opinions in one area or another; that's a good thing. Who wants to live in a bubble?
We all have a right to discuss, advocate for, and support our own positions, and to disagree with others. The difference here from too many other sites is that it's typically done civilly, and with all due respect, as is expected by the bulk of the membership.
But if we run from all people who happen to differ from our viewpoints in freely expressing their own, we're going to get very, very tired and very, very lonely, because no two people are ever going to agree on everything.
And a lack of agreement about the way each person wants to work to achieve something which a large group which includes them desires doesn't mean that the person on either side must be discarded, or that the people cannot work together in areas of agreement.
That's the result of decades of propaganda, designed to divide us all, and up until now used with great success to fragment the left. If TPTB win now, because we continue, as programmed, to entirely reject each other as not being in perfect agreement in every area, time for salvaging any future at all may run out completely in the very, very near future.
Better to go down fighting The Psychopaths That Be than each other.
Edit to add from the OP:
Doesn't look much like a DKos purge to me...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Ellen North I would not blame
I would not blame anybody with my views who felt damned uncomfortable right now.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I'm so sorry to hear that...
Different people in the same group will have varying political opinions in different areas and approaches, though. We all have to do and support what we think best, because that's all we can do.
Some people will try to vote strategically for Progs or Greens, or whoever seems best to them, others will vote party lines, some will vote for anything but corporate parties/candidates, etc. or for a specific 'outside Party' (I hate '3rd Party', which validates that 'Two-Party Trade-off' meme), and some - many, likely, as virtually always in the US - will not vote at all. That's pretty much a given.
(I can see giving up voting because people don't expect theirs to be counted or because there's nothing to vote for or because they're simply too tired of the whole circus, although I will admit that I cannot understand how not voting can be considered as a 'boycott'/protest, when that's the desired result of The Psychopaths That Be. On the other hand, I don't have to understand why anyone does whatever with their vote. It's their vote. And their decision. I'm just explaining my reasoning; that it doesn't have to make sense to me, in my terms, the way my votes must, to me.)
It's horrible that people feel uncomfortable reading about alternative choices, but it's the situation that's been created because, honestly, one person's vote/political opinion is nobody else's business but their own and the fuss only exists because such an appalling state of global affairs has been brought to pass by psychopathic self-interests infiltrating/influencing the US government and those of multiple other countries. And it sucks when anyone see others going in a political direction that they think is wrong and may be playing into the hands of the corrupt, because the situation is so desperate.
But on the other hand, if voting doesn't count, it doesn't matter whether people vote or not, or who they actually vote for. If it does count, though, then it will matter. And at least no cats will come to harm in this thought experiment. (Schrodinger was a big meanie! And particles just act weird to get you looking closely enough that they can get in your eye and annoy the heck out of you.)
Thing is, we all have our reasons for making our choices; we can discuss them onsite, if we like, but don't have to if we don't. And I'd be surprised to discover that anyone here supporting the 'vote Prog/Green' thing thought anything negative about those here who've decided to abstain or do whatever else - or vice versa, even if anyone privately thinks anyone voting has to be misled. Even if we all might individually wish that more people voted the way we think would be the best and even though we personally may each promote that concept which we think best, in the hope of convincing fence-sitters to consider it.
But nobody here is working in an unaware state; everyone here is doing whatever they're doing on an informed basis - and it's just sad that this is even an issue causing such discomfort.
Perhaps the most important thing is that, as humans with shared issues and concerns, we are not divided.
And to enjoy what we've got while we've got it, (which very much includes human contacts and this site, where all civil discussion is welcome,) to do whatever we personally think best regarding the political situation, unite where we agree, agree to differ where we do, and hope for the best. Which is probably all that some of us can do.
But we cannot stop speaking out as censorship increases; it's more important to do so in this situation, where it's justifiable to be nervous about doing so. Although I must admit that the idea of making others here uncomfortable bothers me more...
Anyway, overtired and dunno if this makes a lot of sense, hope so. These are very scary times...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
maybe this will help.
this place is nothing like the Daily Kos, in my opinion.
ymmv.
Does this "farewell" make you feel better? Really?
Or is it another ploy to get people to urge you to stay?
Look, if you genuinely want to leave, then leave already. When you've threatened to in the past, I was one of those who urged you to stay and continue to lend your voice here, but with this comment of yours, I'm seeing clearly through the bullshit.
'Cuz describing gjohnsit's explanation for why he disagrees with you as a dKos-style purge of your voice is fuckin' bullshit, manipulative drama-queen bullshit. If that's all you have to offer this community, then leave if you want. Your characterization of common disagreement as a "purge" is a betrayal of this site. We ain't got time for massaging every individual's ego with assurances of how big and right and unappreciated they are. There are bordellos for that.
Couldn't have said it better
That wasn't what I meant, but you certainly have
sealed the fucking deal with your Daily Kos style "don't let the door hit you" insult. I've been here since day fucking one, I've been a regular contributor with content and money and you should fucking know from Daily Kos it isn't so easy leaving a blog one has been attached to.
But hell, you and all those reccing your fucking bullshit are making it a lot easier.
Thanks.
"That wasn't what I meant"
Please elucidate then. What exactly was the dK-style purge you imagined gjohnsit to have completely won?
Seemed to me the meaning was clear, and my response reflected that.
I do not oppose your no-voting stance; indeed I respect it and can see potential merit in it tactically -- always have.
And to CStMS's reaction, no, I don't think any of the usual posters here is being particularly authoritarian one way or the other. On the whole there's just been the natural tension between two camps with their differing takes. Gjohnsit doesn't agree with the no-vote position to my understanding but has not urged, much less demanded, that anyone follow his path. A couple of posters lately have attacked gjohnsit for his continuing to think some reform of the Dems might still be possible and worth pursuing. So there is some fire amid the smoke that some in this forum have been less tolerant of gjohnsit's views on this matter. Acknowledging that is not a purge.
Before my opinion gets twisted by anyone, Big Al, I would still like to see your voice heard here. I'd like to hear all voices heard here (except for the racist ones that also have popped up lately on this site). But I (who also was here at the beginning, even preC99P, if that means anything at all) will not just sit back and watch anyone try to take this site apart to make it the CaucusWhatIWant -- that's where dKers wallow.
@dance you monster We are in agreement
We are in agreement.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@dance you monster Oddly, this is the
Oddly, this is the closest I've ever been to agreement with Al. In the past I've called him out exactly as you just did, repeatedly. But I am damned uncomfortable right now with the categorical representation of people with my views as disrespectful authoritarians.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Seriously?
If the simple act of explaining myself is a "purge" to you, then perhaps you are too delicate for the internet.
Nah, you don't get it.
Look at the comments, look at the recs. The echo chamber is complete. That's what I mean.
But, if that's what everybody wants.
@gjohnsit I don't see it as a
I don't see it as a purge because it's not coming from the top. But I do see it as the site circling its wagons around you and your position, rendering the environment unwelcoming to people with my position. The point where it crossed the line, for me, was when we started getting portrayed, categorically, as disrespectful authoritarians trying to tell other people what to do.
Again, I'm not leaving, but it's only because my ties to people here are that strong. This has stopped feeling like "Let's have a diverse forum where reformists and revolutionaries and everybody in between can talk." That's a problem for me.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
That's just called a majority opinion
What you and Al are talking about is peer-pressure because you have a minority opinion on an issue. That's all. Absolutely no one has tried to make you unwelcome.
I have no idea what this refers to.
@gjohnsit I always thought
I always thought this site was roughly half-and-half and didn't care who had the 45% and who had the 55%--or even who had the 60% and who had the 40%. But now it's looking like it's more 80% on your side and 20% on mine. There's not a lot of point in expressing an opinion when it is shared by that small a minority.
As far as being portrayed as disrespectful authoritarians, well, you're talking about how you're not respected by people like me. In the comments, people said that people like me tell people like you what to do. We are being turned into a kind of other.
I guess Big Al was right and it's more or less your site now--or at least the site of those who agree with you. I'll still come by and do my OT, because I've got friends here, and I wouldn't shake my fist and GBCW because I think that's not classy. But this is a fairly sad day for me. I guess there really is no place where people with my views congregate.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Re:
That may or may not be true, but so what?
If you believe in your opinion why should that matter?
Once again, I don't know what this is referring to.
No disrespect, but I think that's all in your head.
Human Nature
If none of your essays ever garnered recs or comments, how long would you seriously invest your time here?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
If none of your essays ever garnered recs or comments...
You are not describing CStMS situation. I know because I took the time to look at her comment list.
On the topic of "Voting or Not Voting", her comments got about 225 recs. About 25 of those got a comment. Maybe that is not enough, that's not for me to say.
But it is far from nothing.
By the way, my last two comments which were mildly critical of her last posts did get zero recs.
"Can I explain to you?"
My comment was not referring to
Essays or comments that CSTMS has written.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
forgive my confusion.
you commented on gjohnsit's reply to CStMS. no one other than CStMS was mentioned in that post.
the quote you lifted was directed to her by gjohnsit.
the "if none of your esaays garnered recs.." statement answered that one.
I don't know who else you could have been talking about.
Any hardy soul who has remained interested this long might want to read the comments for themselves. Maybe they will understand your reference.
I know you don't
.
But I think gjohn and a few others might understand my sentiment.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
If you want to make a comment
which can't be understood by the general reader, maybe a private message would be a better choice.
My comment is not unintelligible
You are just looking at it from an unintended angle.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
well, sometimes that happens.
@irishking I never
I never said that I get no recs or reads on this site. That would be a plain inaccurate statement. Gjohnsit said that I'm in a minority here, and most of the comments and recs in this essay would indicate that he's right. I was responding to his comment, and to the general drift of comments and recs in this essay.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
(No subject)
Gotta disagree with you here.
If, like Big Al, you are measuring this from the number of recs any comment gets, you're using a poor yardstick. Multiple things are being reflected in the recs. People will defend gjohnsit's explanation because it makes sense, is reasonable, and is not trying to manipulate anyone into taking a side. Big Al's initial comment was the opposite of that. "You win, g" was a blatant expression of an attempt to make this site one about taking a singular particular side. My initial comment got recc'ed because I called him out on that manner of response, not I think because everyone here suddenly loves my political viewpoint.
You sense you are in the distinct minority with a no-vote strategy. Here's the thing, the people who still leave open the possibility of voting are also in minorities: some will vote straight-D no matter what, some will vote for Greens or other small party candidates, some will split their votes, some will vote R just to stick it to the Ds, some will not vote unless a candidate they love comes along to lure their voting fingers to the polls. Every one of those is in a distinct minority here, and that is as it should be in a non-partisan site. Most of those, nevertheless, must leave open the possibility of voting, just to have that option when the proper moment comes for their particular strategies to be exercised.
I am still registered to vote because I do not want to leave any of the few tools I have out of my political toolbox. What tool I will use in any election season will depend on the circumstances of that season. I don't answer pollsters for TPTB for the same reason: I want them all to be guessing, not relaxing, about what I may do. My tactics can turn at any time. And I don't ask for anyone else to turn with me to become a majority. I express my position and welcome all others to express theirs, no matter how many they may be or how they differ from mine.
A lot of the sensitivity we're seeing here is because so many are frustrated of seeing any progress come about. Maybe none will, or maybe it'll only come after a really ugly interlude. But no one should feel he or she needs to be with the cool kids. None of us is cool here; most of us are rather heated, in fact. Which is why this thread is going on so long.
@dance you monster Thank you, dym,
Thank you, dym, for correctly analyzing the situation. I'm pretty damned touchy about being portrayed as an authoritarian, so I think I flew off the handle a little too quickly in response to one or two comments. Actually it's funny--I ended up doing exactly what I thought (and still think) gjohnsit did: get upset at a couple people and generalize.
I still believe this all would have been better dealt with by addressing it as a failure of civility on the part of people who, well, failed to be civil in the original diary, rather than describing it as a problem with people on this site who don't believe in voting; surely it would have been better to simply tell the two or three people in that Trump diary that they were crossing the line when they were rather than creating a categorical problem with people on the site who hold a certain view. Nonetheless, I think I got more upset than the situation warranted. Thanks to you and irishking who talked me down, and thanks to Eagles92 and zoebear for sticking by me and letting me know I wasn't alone.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Big Al This is exactly the
This is exactly the reaction I was worried about. This is the closest Al and I have been to agreement in a long time. The only difference is, I know a lot of you a lot better than Al does, and so I trust y'all more. Otherwise, I'd be thinking it might be time for me to move on.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I am with Big Al, I would never vote, not in your system,
it's not because it's capitalist, it's because your system has major flaws. It's not democratic. You can't even change your electoral college. Why would you vote? It changes nothing. And people suffer in this system big time and it allows for TPTB of your system to make the world suffer with you.
Happy voting nevertheless for you. It will make your days.
https://www.euronews.com/live
I filled out my California ballot yesterday
after slogging through a couple more videos and reading the pile of dead tree propaganda sent to my door. About half the selections only offered a D or an R, so I picked Nobody. I couldn't find more than one DSA endorsement for CA, she is NPP not a D but go on.
California needs to do a hell of a lot more to be considered "progressive". The Democrats have made homeless and poor millions of people, voting for them is effing insane if you ask me. This election is a sewer of cash dollars, too many lobbyists mucking up democracy. Unions included FTS! Ds are bringing the red wave back in to fashion.
https://twitter.com/HootHootBerns/status/1002869328969117697
wtf jane? there already is a third party, it is Green.
Peace
Rec'd!! Excellent (as usual) diary, gjohn!
I was brought up my whole life with the dictate that if you want to live in a healthy democracy, you **learn how to think for yourself,** get informed,** and vote! What's with this lesser of two evils bullshit?? Who exactly scared up that line of marketing propaganda? If it's evil, amoral, corrupt, etc., I will either write in or skip the blank and move on. What I won't do is not vote! Voter ignorance/apathy has always been an objective of fascists and their 'merry' band of crap.
Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.
No third parties allowed in California
I think that's the whole point of this f**kwad top 2 primary system. And now the primary is tomorrow with most voters being completely unaware of the alternatives to, for instance, Dianne Feinstein. Nobody knows Alison Hartson or whoever is running against Gavin Newsome (well ok, I guess people in Southern Cal know Villaraigosa since he was mayor of LA). Most people in NoCal have no clue about him. The one possible, but unlikely win is Gayle Mclaughlin for Lieutenant Governor. She was the Green Party mayor of Richmond, where politics were dominated by the local Chevron refinery. She kicked out the Chevron politicians and turned Richmond around.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Sound like Alison Hartson might have a chance.
Have you listened to this yet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlNYTPG8chY
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Dead end voting
Living in Tennessee makes it hard to vote for a third party. Living in Tennessee also makes it hard to vote for ANYONE with ANY sense of decency. I couldn't even tell you who is running for Corker's senate seat - evil people, I'm quite sure. But the commercials for governor...I honestly can't tell which one is worse. It's like asking me, "Do you want to hang or burn?" Best answer I can give is no answer.
So, instead of wasting my gas and time to vote for one evil or the other, I'll just stay home and tend to my flowers.
Is it great yet?
Until the system can safeguard my vote
It wouldn't matter if Gandhi himself was on the ballot. They will win in the end. And as far as I can see there have been no convincing arguments to compel me to participate in their corrupt strangle hold on our electoral system.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
I think the cheating would have to be too flagrant
for Ghandi to be defeated. The riots at the DNC might not be as bad as the Indian partition riots but much worse than 2016. I know Ghandi wouldn't be Republican and probably not a Democrat either. Just to be totally surreal, a 3 way debate between Hillary, Trump and Ghandi would have been fascinating.
Beware the bullshit factories.
I am not sure at all that I will
bother to vote. That is one more thing 2016 and Her did for this country, make people who might actually try something to bring change see how utterly futile that is. It's a feature, not a bug, of Hers theft of the primary. I won't give any of them money anymore either.
But that said, I do agree that our owners would prefer it if more of us sat it out. They will just install whoever they want then. It is a tough dilemma and one more way to divide and conquer. For those who can still stomach voting, I say go for it but keep your hope tamped down. Do not let them break your heart one more time by hoping for anything too real out of any of them, IMHO.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
EXACTLY where I'm at!
That's EXACTLY where I'm at! I mostly keep voting because our owners don't want me to! And I also keep my hope tamped down. I don't let them break my heart one more time by hoping for anything too real out of any of them. Because it's not coming.
Once the vote fails, only violence remains. And the vote has failed. Now, I do not want or advocate for the violence. But any American who has no fear of that violence isn't paying attention!
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
and my guess is that violence will
be guided at the left.
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
Voting as part of an ideological struggle
In terms of the democratic party take-over there seems to be at least two models. The first is the Tea Party and the other is the gay rights movement. The Tea Party model will fail. Democratic party establishment has been very effectively at smashing insurgent movements since Jesse Jackson. Having worked back in the day in democratic party primaries, the party establishment where it can will cheat progressives. The Tea Party did not face the same hurdles. (When republicans cheat, they do it in the general election.)
The other is the gay rights movement. In the 1990s the Clintons and the democrats absolutely threw gay people under the bus with bullshit like DOMA. And now all the all major democratic party flunky luminaries reversed their positions from opposing gay marriage to supporting it.
So I will vote for progressives at all levels not so much to gain political position but to win the ideological war against both democrat and republican neoliberal war mongers.
Where honest elections can take place, voting does matter. I was hoping that Jill Stein would have gotten more votes than she did so her policy positions could not be so easily marginalized.
What Bernie's campaign very importantly was an example where a purely ideological campaign can be successful. Votes for him were from my point of view, an ideological victory. And if he was not cheated, he would be president right now.
How would you quantify that "win"?
.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Spreading of ideas and legitimacy
Bernie at least, gave power and impetus to critical policies such as universal health care, free college tuition, etc. Like the idea of gay marriage, those policies were from what I can tell, absolutely marginalized. While not implemented yet, they have become legit and internalized by many in the population.
Value for value's sake
Legitimacy from whom? The Electorate? I'm not sure I see how that translates into electoral wins and policy implementation.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Damn the World would be different today
If that we're allowed to happen. Bernie is the rightful President and the most popular politician. If Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnel had any sense of patriotism they could right this wrong and do something like a double impeachment of Trump and Pence, a resigning of the Presidency by Paul Ryan and an elevating of Bernie to the next in line position in the Senate.
Beware the bullshit factories.
As far as I can tell
it is totally rigged at the federal level, mostly rigged at the state level. At the local level, no, but they've fixed that by defunding local government.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
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