Let's not do this here.
Back in the day, there was I/P and RKBM. There was the Purge. Volleyball1? Then there was the Ides of March.
And now this. Hello
Yeah, the 8 month old baby thing not true either. Look it up.
Really?
I don't agree. So there.
So we're gonna do this now? Rip apart the community over the same shit?
Whatever you believe what is going on there is not what you think nor what I think IMHO. The inter webs let you find any crazy fucker that said something over a decade ago. That's your "proof" and again MSM certification. Please.
How about the "Monster Palestinians" Which party has always waged war or walked away from the table or at least even tried for somewhat of an equitable resolution for decades? Intifada! All parties are complicit in no resolution despite multiple opportunities to do so for decades.
I'll just stop here, I'll either be buried or not responded to. It is what it is.
So what now?
Comments
What?
Who here is ripping up what? I don't read everything posted that's for sure, but I don't see us having pissing matches with each other. We could be a little more polite to strangers, but all in all we seem to be an amiable lot.
Am I misunderstanding your message?
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Headline
Monsters of Israel.
That's the way to start a reasoned conversation when most of the content has now been debunked, denied or is in question?
Prof: Nancy! I’m going to Greece!
Nancy: And swim the English Channel?
Prof: No. No. To ancient Greece where burning Sapho stood beside the wine dark sea. Wa de do da! Nancy, I’ve invented a time machine!
Firesign Theater
Stop the War!
Really?
Not on C99P. Was it debunked somewhere else?
BTW
Debunked?
Let's NOT do this here. You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't like your tone. Too reminiscent of the IP wars at dailykos. Why should gjohnsit bust his ass writing all this content for site if he's going to get jumped on whenever someone doesn't like something.
The baby is dead. 58 people are dead. This is not an isolated incidence; there is a pattern of death and oppression by Israel against the Palestinians. Who cares if Hamas was or wasn't in the count. Since it was liberals/native Americans being pepper sprayed, clubbed and jailed at Occupy and Standing Rock, they shouldn't count either? It was actually the Romans who drove the Israelis out. Maybe we should attack Rome next.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
denied?
since when does denial from a government accused of atrocities constitute any sort of evidence valid in a debate? of course they deny it. and when they can't deny, they justify. and blah blah.
sorry, but i get to call these meisters of the Gaza schlachthaus exactly what i think they are, without worrying that it will poison whatever debate you want to have about the matter. the thing about I/P debates is that for 90% of folks who know anything about it, there's no debate -- we've picked our side, and the two sides have nothing to say to each other. new information is not suddenly going to come to light that illuminates in some fresh way the last 70 years of I/P history. no epistemological breakthrough is going to emerge out of the quantum foam that improbably resolves the difference in values and philosophy between the two camps.
however, that doesn't mean either side should shut up, just to create a bogus sense of polite comity. from my perspective, the Israeli government is a savage criminal organization run by ethnic and/or religious bigots who are wrong from the very foundation of their political philosophy, and only get wronger as they build the odious edifice of their nation on top of that foundation. i don't feel any need to pretend that i think they're not 99 44/100 % evil; and I don't feel any need to use polite words in reference to people I consider to be 99 44/100% evil.
you like 'em? you think they're not so bad? you think they've got good, valid reasons for doing what they do, being who they are? good for you. i don't care. call the Palestinians whatever you like. i don't care. why should i care? if you aren't sickened by the Israeli bloodfest in Gaza, if you choose to entertain/endorse/respect their denials and their excuses and their indignation and their accusation and their rare, soft apologies, then I just don't care what you have to say about any of it, and I can't think of any reason you should care what I have to say about any of it, because we're never going to agree on anything of substance as regards to Israel.
the problem with the I/P diaries and the RKBM diaries and whatnot wasn't that people viewed each other's opinions (and often enough, each other) with contempt; the problem was that people would not leave to themselves people who posted diaries from the opposing viewpoint.
if you don't think the people who gave the orders to shoot all of those unarmed civilians are monsters, then write your own essay talking about what a horrible bunch of savage thugs those civilians were, and how enough of them deserved what they got to offset whatever happened to whichever of them did not. i don't care. i won't read it, i won't argue with you about it, i won't set this c99p community alight over it, because you're entitled to believe whatever you believe -- with the single exception of believing that i don't get to write an essay expressing my sincere opinion, merely because my choice of language accurately reflects my viewpoint.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
@UntimelyRippd Righteous and
Righteous and absolutely correct. Fabulous comment, Untimely R'D.
I argue for a living. In my private life, I will ONLY state my opinion on politics and religion ( or environment, or clean coal, or the oligarchy/duopoly, etc...) if asked or if pressured, but never upon the premise that I am wanting to change anyone's mind.
Same way on this site.
I value it as a place where I can give my honest opinion and if anyone agrees, that is nice.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
I got nothing to add other than...
[video:https://youtu.be/Gyu82WG_edM]
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Memri TV is a front for Israeli intelligence
known for its absurd "translations."
From the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker)
"Evidence from Memri's website also casts doubt on its non-partisan status. Besides supporting liberal democracy, civil society, and the free market, the institute also emphasises "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel".
That is what its website used to say, but the words about Zionism have now been deleted. The original page, however, can still be found in internet archives.
The reason for Memri's air of secrecy becomes clearer when we look at the people behind it. The co-founder and president of Memri, and the registered owner of its website, is an Israeli called Yigal Carmon.
Mr - or rather, Colonel - Carmon spent 22 years in Israeli military intelligence and later served as counter-terrorism adviser to two Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin.
Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of Memri's website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three - including Col Carmon - are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence.
Among the other three, one served in the Israeli army's Northern Command Ordnance Corps, one has an academic background, and the sixth is a former stand-up comedian."
So Ok
Memri is an Israeli front. The Guardian said so in 2002.
So, you agree that Hamas, says the same thing in English as they do in Arabic?
I would be happy to go to your site of choice for a translation.
Waiting.
Prof: Nancy! I’m going to Greece!
Nancy: And swim the English Channel?
Prof: No. No. To ancient Greece where burning Sapho stood beside the wine dark sea. Wa de do da! Nancy, I’ve invented a time machine!
Firesign Theater
Stop the War!
Still a front
Don Rumsfeld, Alan Dershowitz and John Bolton were on its board of advisors (and many others of their ilk) in 2012. I haven't been able to find a later listing of the board of advisors, but the type of people on the board is very clear and consistent. My understanding is that Hamas had very little to do with the initiation of these demonstrations. Some members of Hamas may be trying to take credit for them now that they are having an impact. Israel has been trying to blame Hamas. Demonization of the Hamas leadership is their standard modus operandi. It is used to distract people from the events on the ground. So far, one IDF member has had a minor injury from these demonstrations. Reporting from many sources has confirmed that thousands of Gazans have been shot and over 100 have been killed. It it your contention that it is OK to shoot Hamas members? Do you think Gazans are actually free to come and go from Gaza as they please, but are staying there because of the climate? Are they showing up at the border unarmed because they enjoy being shot by IDF snipers?
Hamas said that they lost 50 martyrs on 5/14/18, that's it.
The western press has twisted what was said beyond recognition.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
I hope you don't feel marginalized, Ed.
That situation was deeply haunted and bad to the bone from day one. It always seems to harm those who touch it, or even glance its way. It oozes a supernatural loathing in the hearts of men. Terrible things happened there. The Hebrews deserve much better and I hope that they find it somewhere less cursed.
So, it stands to reason that in I/P discussions, everyone comes away feeling contaminated or diminished. Committed discussions about Israel have never made any forum a better place, that's for sure. But your honest concerns are no bad reflection on you. Over its untenable history, many of us have held all sorts of sympathies.
IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
So does this mean then
that when Amerika killed all those native Americans it was OK because some of them were actual warriors? So it was OK to kill their wives and kids then? And what of Hamas? Sure they're violent but why are they that way? Could it have something to do with being blockaded into a place without running water or sewage treatment, without enough food being brought in past that blockade, with 40% unemployment overall and maybe 60% for the young? And how about medical treatment being denied simply because one is the child of the "enemy" and should be condemned for life based on what their ancestors "did?" Then every idiot in America should be condemned as well for the original genocide as well as the slavery. I thought we mostly agreed out here that we don't condemn the sons for the sins of their fathers?
Here is my favorite quote from Caitlin's latest 15 Reasons:
"6. Any position on Israel that is determined by words made up by dead men thousands of years ago is intrinsically invalid. Saying the Jewish people are more entitled to Israel than those who were living there seven decades ago because of some superstitious voodoo written in obsolete religious texts is not an argument. Religious freedom is important, and it’s important to be able to believe whatever you like, but your beliefs do not legitimize your actions upon other people. If you murder someone in the name of Allah, you have murdered someone. If you kill 58 people because you feel some ancient scripture entitles you to a particular section of dirt, you have killed 58 people. Your internal beliefs do not give you a free pass for your egregious actions upon others."
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Oh my
False equivalencies,
Did you even look at the link?
Prof: Nancy! I’m going to Greece!
Nancy: And swim the English Channel?
Prof: No. No. To ancient Greece where burning Sapho stood beside the wine dark sea. Wa de do da! Nancy, I’ve invented a time machine!
Firesign Theater
Stop the War!
Uh yeah, I looked at that link.
And just from my naïve perspective and love of false equivalence I would say it's just one more propaganda arm of our owners. But hey, I am a naïve bleeding heart liberal so there ya go. But when I see Rumsfeld, Bolton and Hayden on their board of "advisers" along with some other rather ugly names, well, I have to go with my very own bleeding heart naivete and say it's a site I won't be visiting regularly anytime soon. Maybe for a propaganda headline, you know, like when I look at the NYT to see what the latest hype is.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
A Canadian doctor was shot and a paramedic was killed
This guy had no ties to Hamas!
Canadian doctor was wounded in Gaza
Nor were the two journalists who were wearing vests that marked them as press. Then there's the number of people who were well back from the fence and had their backs turned who were also shot.
None of them had Hamas hiding behind them. Israel is committing war crimes and for you to blame Hamas for it is just sad.
There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?
Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.
linkie
This item, and the other 14 Caitlin Johnstone published with them, can be found here.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Item 9 applies quite well to Amerikkka
Off the topic of the essay, but not of your comment
Idaho has elected or is getting ready to elect the very first Native American for governor! This is both very incredible and sad at the same time. To think that it took well over 2 centuries to elect the defendant of the original inhabitant of this country as governor. I think this is outstanding and long overdue.
There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?
Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.
Now that's odd.
I find it rather demeaning. Not sure why. After all, Joe Arpaio is a native American. I read today that the reservations only have shit meth. But that makes sense since the reservation is littered with Listerine bottles. How do the white invaders even organize their thoughts about Native Americans to come up with an opinion about the rare one who ascended the despair to take public office among the purveyors of continuing genocide around the world?
IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
Joe Arpaio is Italian, not Native American
I had to check that one, because in all these many years here in Arizona I had never heard that so I did a double take!
However...
I also like to remind people he’s from Massachusetts, not even a real Zonie.
Thanks for correcting the misinformation.
I really appreciate it. Identity politics are always filled with pitfalls. The existential dilemma, of course, still remains.
(Excellent avatar, you have there.)
IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
Hey Ed what is with the tone?
You don't like the idea that people object to Israelis shooting people protesting to their open air prison? Or is it you suggest that's not the case based on flawed evidence? Or you suggest we sympathize with the Israelis? It is not clear what has you so upset with us or gjohn or...?
It is clear Israel is a war monger nation that is illegally bombing in Syria (as is the US) and promotes aggression (as does the US) doing everything possible to foment a war with Iran - I find both countries complicit in the overall instability and manipulation of the region. I'm sorry if that is offensive...it is what I observe. I say BSD Israel and the US.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Agree.
I don't follow the M.E.
becuz there's so much bull$h!t it's difficult to figure out which way is up.
And who's fucking whom.
But, there's zero question that this current bull$h!t is directed at Iran by both Israel and the U.S., likely at the behest of Deep State, the MIC (and Bibi, of course) via Trump.
And, on the side, they get to fuck with Palestinians in Gaza.
Great pleasure for Deep State, MIC, Bibi. Everyone else?
Not so much.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Let's not do this here?
Are you suggesting that c99p start censoring content, because that's not going to happen.
I generally stay away from the topic
But what is happening around Gaza recently, well, it's monstrous.
That is the appropriate word.
It is very troubling
And we need facts not bullshit, to try and figure a way back from where we're headed, otherwise things just keep getting more and more troubling and out of control.
Beware the bullshit factories.
I stay away from wars in the Middle East because
I have no idea as to what is real or not in MOST cases. However, what we have been seeing for many years with the Palestinians in Gaza is the most extreme form of apartheid that has been morphing into genocide.
This is not about anti-Semitism. This is a humanitarian issue. Period. These people are captives in an ever growing smaller and smaller strip of land. They are truly prisoners in a place from which there is no escape.
Thank you for posting this, gjohnsit.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
What was in your essay needed to be seen
There was no political twist to it, just facts that you read and then shared it with us. I appreciated you doing that.
There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?
Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.
Avoiding the topic is no solution,
Your essay was entirely appropriate, and if someone doesn't like it, they are certainly free to share their opposing arguments.
Those who would shut down the discussion are authoritarians and charlatans of the worst sort.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
No of course not
Less inflammatory language on difficult topics maybe?
Prof: Nancy! I’m going to Greece!
Nancy: And swim the English Channel?
Prof: No. No. To ancient Greece where burning Sapho stood beside the wine dark sea. Wa de do da! Nancy, I’ve invented a time machine!
Firesign Theater
Stop the War!
So...
you're suggesting a milder form of censorship then, right?
Our one basic rule here is that members interact civilly with one another. I did not see any member being uncivil to another member in the essay that you referenced.
What language would you use
for the murder of dozens of unarmed protesters, including 6 children?
I honestly want to know.
Let's all suck Netenyahu's dick real hard, then.
After all, it's what OrangeState would do..and it seems the only thing keeping this community together is a mutual hatred of all things OrangeState/McResistance.
Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.
Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.
Are you referring to the satirical piece
The Onion posted about an "Israeli soldier" who felt "threatened" and then "killed" an 8 month old baby that is making the rounds on Twitter?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Speaking of false equivalencies
The enormous military supremacy Israel has over Palestine makes your statement starkly at odds with reality.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
So there
That's not a point. That's just an argument.
As for Hamas vs. "regular people", I didn't realize that being a member of Hamas makes you less than human.
If that's the case, then it certainly makes genocide a lot easier.
As for the baby girl, only Israel is denying her death.
Look, the mass killing of protestors is news. It's also a crime against humanity.
So do we just ignore it?
People jump the border wall in the U.S. too. I don't believe we simply shoot them.
it's not an argument.
an argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
what you have up there is contradiction -- the automatic gainsaying of whatever the other person says.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
I couldn't get the image loader to work, so let's try this embed
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
The European oppressors, who stole land from indigenous people
are still oppressing them (which I guess includes myself and many here). The Roman oppressors, who kicked the Jews out of Israel, are long gone. The Palestinians are innocent of that, the Israelis, not so much. It's a shame that more thought didn't go into the rights of people who were living there when Israel was created. I think many people were still in shock from the Holocaust and were not being so rational.
Beware the bullshit factories.
how about this?
Your embed was cropped off the right-hand side. This one appears to present the image whole.
(Which it deserves.)
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
The same goes for the once and future Kingdom of Hawaii. n/t
@dkmich that's just too funny, I
that's just too funny, I literally lol'd!
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
I don't know how to embed the actual image. Here's the link:
https://www.clowncrack.com/2018/05/15/gaza/
Is it okay for Herr Drumpf to call all Mexicans animals? Are all Palestinians also animals? When will humans find their humanity? When will it matter who is being persecuted so that no one is persecuted?
Put the needs of others above your own fears.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
mr. fish
how about this?
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Thank you ~~
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
you're welcome!
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
EdMass,
I welcome your comments and questions, even with the tone and the anger and frustration, because we're going to have to have these arguments. It's way past time, and this is part of the reality of the Reality Show of Trump. Now we're talking. Now we're arguing about issues that have been smoothed over by polite looking politicians who have mumbled us to sleep. Now we see our government for what it is.
In trying to respond to your questions, I'll just say, yes, the media coverage is always questionable, has always been so, and over time, names like Rumsfeld and Bolton have a history of showing themselves to be, in my judgment, fascist. So if they are associated with a source, I see the source as likely fascist.
But over all, the number 6 paragraph by Caitlin Johnstone quoted earlier in this thread is, I think, the strongest statement I have seen to express the longterm doubts so many Americans have had about the entire State of Israel project. What exactly was the idea? How was this supposed to work? Why would anyone think this was morally sound? How was this not setting up the Israeli people for another holocaust? What was our plan? And by "our" plan, I mean the United States support for this madness.
So in friendship and appreciation for your having had the courage and honesty to raise the issue, I guess I want to ask you, what is the plan going forward? What, in your opinion, should the United States government be doing with respect to the State of Israel? Are we morally or otherwise obligated to destroy Iran as we have destroyed Syria? I admit that is not a fair question. But it's what we're arguing over, I think.
Thanks
I do not believe we should be in the ME at all. Yet it seems everyone else on the bleachers is somehow. The roots of this conflagration go back centuries with help from countries and religions all spurring it on at one time or another.
Israel is and has been besieged. Multiple wars instigated by their neighbors. Jordan and Lebanon moved the Palestinians out of their countries with little international resistance. Egypt shut down their border with Gaza too. Yet the PLO, PA and Hamas after multiple opportunities to achieve peace walk away and continue the pursuit of violence and violent over throw to eliminate the Jews.
The US has been trying to arbitrate this situation for decades with no assistance really from any other country or region. Why? Turkey just said the Arab world should unite against Israel. That's helpful. While the Saudis now say the PA should compromise or shut up... Go figure.
Maybe it shouldn't be all on the US. If the UN actually worked maybe it would be helpful.
I just can't abide that this is all the Jews fault. It's not.
Aside from total abdication, loss of sovereignty and moving to Arizona what are the Israelis to do if the PA won't compromise in any way shape or form despite the reality that Israel exists and is not going away.
At the end of the day, we can only keep trying to help them achieve an equitable resolution. Because for some inexplicable reason it seems no one else will. Taking sides, labeling is not helpful and only flames the fire.
Prof: Nancy! I’m going to Greece!
Nancy: And swim the English Channel?
Prof: No. No. To ancient Greece where burning Sapho stood beside the wine dark sea. Wa de do da! Nancy, I’ve invented a time machine!
Firesign Theater
Stop the War!
I voted in support
of your comment because I feel like you're acting in good faith, honestly stating your position. And I think that for you there is, as you say it,
But it is difficult it for some Americans to believe that,
Israel has been bombing Syria for years. I'm not trying to reverse your thinking as much as I am trying to describe for you why so many Americans don't see Israel as besieged and instead see it as an aggressor acting with constant impunity, wherein every aggressive move they make, including attacking other countries, is seen as unassailable because the United States will defend them against any foreign attack, even in self-defense!
My question to you, even with your beliefs, is, how is this supposed to work? How, in fact, is this supposed to work for the people of Israel? It seems like a constant state of not only conflict, but a never-ending state of near annihilation. Does this make sense for anyone in the region?
Also,
I am surprised that you would say to your fellow writers at caucus99percent,
I do see the words, "the Jews," in discussions at other blogs, and it shocks and disappoints me when it is among otherwise seemingly reasonable people. But do you see it here? What I see here and agree with is a blaming of "Zionists." By that I mean, I blame those who thought this was a good idea, whether they thought it because they were traumatized, or because it was a military industrial dream come true. It was a bad idea, and it was premised on the insane idea that Palestinian lives don't matter. Palestinian lives do matter. They continue to matter, and the compromises you refer to, from my perspective, appear to mean that Palestinians have reduced rights to their lives and to their land. Because Israel is here and is not going away. I find that unacceptable.
Your narrative seems to begin in 1948...
when, somehow, magically and legitimately the State of Israel was created.
You don't seem to notice that in 1918, the British, arbitrarily (i.e., without any legal justification except force) decided that they were going to let Jewish people immigrate into Palestine. Nobody asked the Palestinians (or any of the Arabs) - go watch the last half hour of Lawrence of Arabia if you are not clear about that.
And why did the British decide to stick their nose into Palestine? Because, at the time, the British "mandate" over the former Ottoman lands, included Iraq, eventually a major source of oil. The British decided to screw over the Arabs who fought against the Turks; and they put the Jewish folks into the front lines to take the heat.
Naturally, the Arab MAJORITY did not appreciate the British guarding the Jewish immigrants, who were pushing them out of their own homes, where they had lived for thousands of years. So, the Arabs, in the person of the Grand Mufti of ?Damascus? flirted with the Nazis.
After the war, the British looked the other way while boatloads of European Jews (and boatloads full of weapons) ran a half-hearted blockade. (I'm on a movie kick: go see Exodus for that narrative.) The noble Jews ran a campaign of terror, blowing up the King David Hotel among other events. Begin, later prime minister, was a terrorist from Poland. But, I guess terrorism is only bad when it comes from the Arab side.
The British decide to let the Jews emigrate to Palestine. Then they decided to dump Europe's Jewish problem onto the Arabs. The Arabs were rightfully angry at having an armed presence foisted on them by the ur-Colonialist government.
All of that emnity, built up between 1918 and 1948 is completely absent from your narrative. You complain that
If its beseiged, its because it is an alien implant, put there by the British for their own ends.
Once again, you have forgotten the 1956 Suez Incident, where Israel joined with Britain and France in an attempt to seize the Suez Canal from Nassar's Egypt. You also have swallowed the whole Six Day War narrative. The Israelis STRUCK FIRST. They started the war.
That's two major combats (you can hardly call something that lasts less than a week a war) which the Israelis started.
Bottom Line: The Israelis are not saints. They start wars. They murder people in cold blood. After watching the fundamentalists (Likud and even further right nutcases) take over the country, assasinate a peace-loving prime minister, steal the occupied territories in violation of international law, and turn Gaza into a concentration camp, I am done hearing what a victim Israel is.
You have every right to your "outrage", and I have every right to mine. So, as others have suggested, why don't you drop the self-righteous tone and argue the facts.
It's more complicated than that, even
The British wheeling and dealing in the Middle East started well before World War I. They made promises to various different groups and organizations, and didn't keep a single one of them. Everyone wound up betrayed (except of course the British, who were doing all the betraying), and a generations-long mess was created.
As for "meddling in the Middle East" - that has an even longer history, and probably dates back at least as far as New Kingdom Egypt (or farther, but only Egypt left records that we can read).
So here we are, with a claim that's been jumped far too many times by far too many people, and who is owed how much of what?
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
"Remember the Liberty"
"who were pushing them out of their own homes" This is still happening and this country blocks any sort of support of stopping them from doing it. BTW, this fits right in with Russia Gate. Flynn is accused of speaking to someone in Russia during the transition and it's true. Bibi asked Kushner to tell Flynn to speak to Russia and get them to vote no on censoring Israel for building the illegal settlements. Flynn did, but that never seems to make the news for some reason ...
There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?
Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.
Remember Rachel Corrie!
And let's not forget about oil...
One of the insights the late Matthew Simmons offered in "Twilight in the Desert" was that the vast majority of the exploitable oil and gas in the world is within a few hundred miles of the Persian Gulf. There was a deliberate partitioning of the fallen Ottoman Empire to set the peoples of the region at each others' throats, and the foundation of Israel was absolutely part of that. It made sure no single nation could unite the region and control the oil.
And the US is using depleted uranium weapons, rendering the region uninhabitable for geologic time. The modern version of sowing salt into the fields so that nothing can grow there again.
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone
Nothing lasts forever.
Israel most probably is going away, and a lot sooner than most people think. The significant question is, how much of our civilization is it going to take with it?
Not coincidentally, exactly the same thing could be said/asked about the American Empire.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
Lebanon moved the Palestinians out of the country?
That's news to me. Last time I was there the camps were still there and as big as ever. One difference though is that at least in Lebanon, the Palestinians are free to go in and out of the camps as they please, or live elsewhere.
The idea that the PA "walked away" from a peaceful resolution is pure propaganda. The fact is that every time the PA agreed to certain provisions, the Israelis would keep adding more conditions. The Israelis cynically did this until they killed the negotiations themselves. Blaming the Palestinians for this after the fact is an intentional PR feature.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
How very American of them.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Does this apply to the members here?
If so then I disagree. If not then I'd like to know how we get people off of them and how we can achieve this.
There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?
Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.
I think I may have found the crux of the disagreement?
I don't think anyone here is suggesting it is.
Most would agree though that it largely IS Israel's fault.
That doesn't make it anymore the Jews fault for this situation than the U.S. Campaign of death throughout the middle east and Latin America is the fault of the average American, at least not directly...
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
I agree with this
Once there was an Israel, once there were borders and all the apparatus that goes with defending and governing within those borders, every thing changed. As a nation Israel will do every shitty and despicable thing any other nation has done. Every country has it's mythology to project. In the US it's land of the free, home of the brave, we saved the world in ww2, melting pot blah blah blah. I don't know what Israels is, but like the US it will eventually have to deal with it's sins. To me, it looks like they want land, that a bigger Israel is a stronger Israel and the Palestinians are just an obstacle to this. Israels hard Right is the same as in the US, as the same anywhere, and the ends will justify the means. This will never end, in the land that still nurses grudges about the crusades.
It's not about hating Jews, it's despair at watching an ally do what we do.
I'm not so sure about that:
The way things are playing out, many countries will be abandoned, and it has a lot to do with how they were set up in the first place. Israel is no more special than any other contested place in the world. There's no reason to assume they will last a full century in that location. It's like throwing a pot. If the beginning is unbalanced and reactive, most of your pot will end up on the four walls of the room. The laws of physics tell us that things like that don't get better; they get worse. All we really know for sure is that Israel will never experience peace. Physics is the law we must all obey in this universe, and it operates in the human realm, as well.
Take the US for example....
IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
things fall apart, the center does not hold
mere anarchy is loosed upon the world
the blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
Where do you want to have this discussion?
Name the place.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Empire Files: How Palestine Became Colonized
A history lesson for you.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT5L4YU_Fl4]
The relevancy of Zionism
To learn that acts of terrorism in the Middle East actually began in Israel, perpetrated by Israelis, and financed by western plutocrats for their own gain, more than anything, should nullify the modern day defense of "Zionism" which was built on an apocryphal version of events that mercilessly negates the brutal consequences of killing thousands of people for their land.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
@CB I guess the reservation
I guess the reservation system for Native Americans served as a model for this.