A Scout is...

I give up. Rant to follow.

In Historic Change, Boy Scouts to Let Girls in Some Programs

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-11/in-historic-change-bo...

"We believe it is critical to evolve how our programs meet the needs of families interested in positive and lifelong experiences for their children," said Michael Surbaugh, the BSA's chief scout executive.

Let's review, shall we?

Disclosure. I have been with the BOY Scouts for over 35 years. Cub Den Leader. Cub Troop Leader. Asst Scout Master, Scout Master. I have 2 sons, they are both Eagle Scouts.

I have spent considerable time with boys - ages 10 to 16, in meetings, in the woods, on field trips, summer camp and BSA excursions. FYI BSA excursions include 2 weeks on the Appalachian Trail, 2 weeks at the Philmont Scout Ranch, 1 week at Sea Camp (Skin Diving Experience), 2 weeks on the Missouri River on the Lewis & Clark river journey, 1 week Coast of Maine Kayaking, oh yeah Jamboree.

For all those SJW's you ever spend a week in the woods with 13 to 16 year old boys??? Didn't think so.

You ever go on an extended outdoor experience where you and the boys shit in the woods, or get up in the night to pee outside the tent? Didn't think so.

You ever eat what a 14 year old cooks and thinks is edible after 4 days on the trail? Didn't think so.

You really like how those nasty boys treat your daughter at school in a "safe" environment? Oh wait, that's different.

This age group of BOYS (individually and especially in a self-supporting group) like sharp things, fire, mayhem and anything else they can get away with.

This is such a bad idea imho.

Lawsuits to follow.

Ignore the fact that there are plenty of organizations for girls (that aren't allowing boys, go figure?) By all means, sign your daughter up. She'll really thank you after spending a week at Summer Camp with da boys. Oh, I had to pass a rule that the boys would take at least 2 showers during their week at Summer Camp.

The Outdoor Latrines. Did I forget to mention them?

I love the smell of a Latrine in the morning, used by 20 Scouts, it smells like Victory.

If all this sounds great for you and your daughter come join the BSA otherwise by all means, proceed with the emasculation of boys and men.

Happy. Happy?

Journey to Excellence

Do you know them?

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Comments

Big Al's picture

I think in this case they could have left well enough alone. There have long been two separate organizations for boys and girls, I see nothing wrong with that. It's like having boys and girls teams in sports in grade, middle, and high schools.

Looks more like a money and power grab and a corporate decision as opposed to some altruistic thing like their rationale suggests ("evolve how our programs meet the needs of families interested in positive and lifelong experiences for their children")

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TheOtherMaven's picture

while the Boy Scouts have been playing their exclusionary games.

Girl Scouts at least allow anyone defining themselves as a "girl" regardless of chromosomes or other externals.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Deja's picture

When I heard about this earlier today, I thought it was weird and unnecessary, but after reading this article. Well, Jesus effing Christ! What century is this?

And you're serious.

News flash: Not all girls like playing dress up in mommy's heels. Many of us know that camping ain't pretty. A lot of us can catch, kill, clean, and cook a fish. Lots of us hunt and dress (not clothing). We can change our own oil and tires. We can disassemble, clean, reassemble firearms. We can even change our own light bulbs, and kill our own bugs. Hell, my mom used a backhoe and dug NINE holes, and as a certified installer, installed NINE aerobic septic systems - HERself. I have accurately machined stainless steel industrial sized parts, to spec, using both manual and cnc mills and lathes, and used a 20 ton crane to get the material in and out of the machines.

Think any of that was pretty, or smelled good?

And then there's the mention that sports are divided by gender in school in the first archaic comment. Seriously?

Let me tell you both something, I was once part of a bit of a mutiny over sexism in schools in 1978 or ‘79. Fifth grade. We girls were relegated to sitting on the ground and watching the boys play flag football. When we asked if we could play too, we were told no. Basically sit there and be pretty.

We decided to take over the game. I had employed the tactic once before at summer camp when the older kids wouldn't rotate me into the basketball game. If you disrupt the game, no one can play. Either let us play, or you don't get to play either.

Neither time required a penis to do what they were doing. They weren't donating sperm, after all, or carrying/dribbling the ball with their penises.

Your article shows what you think of females, and anyone else who might stand up for them. Exactly what are you doing on this site? Are you sure you wouldn't be happier at a pro Mike “The Handmaid's Tale” Pence site?

Repulsive!

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"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

Big Al's picture

@Deja and separating sports teams by gender are two different things imo. And are you saying that all youth organizations must be gender neutral, that there should not be organizations strictly for boys nor for girls? I simply said I didn't see anything wrong with that (as long as there is equal access to like organizations for all genders of course) and that makes me archaic and not worthy for this site?

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Deja's picture

@Big Al
That's what irked me about your comment. The 'let me tell you both something' was referring to the discrimination I experienced regarding sports.

And no, I don't think you should be at another site. Ed, yes. Anyone who believes what he posted, nearly 20 years into the 21st century would find more in common with someone like Mike Pence.

I thought "allowing" girls into the boy scouts was weird, and said so. Though, camping and not learning to make a seat cushion and use the freaking stove (like I had to do in scouts) sounds a lot more up my alley.

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"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

Big Al's picture

@Deja far with Ed, sounds like he's got a close connection with it all and even the Girl Scouts evidently don't like the move.
But I appreciate your comments, they made me think. Now I have to get a beer.

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Deja's picture

@Big Al
It took me a long time to post my initial comment. Actually cut it and pasted it elsewhere, then paced a bit, smoked a few cigs. Then I hit refresh and made myself a drink before I pasted it back in and posted it.

Now that I've self medicated a bit, I regret saying that I think Ed should go elsewhere. I do not agree with his view of women, however; and, am shocked it's actually posted here.

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"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

Centaurea's picture

@Big Al
The Girl Scouts of America is an entirely different organization. No surprise that they wouldn't be too thrilled about this. From what I've seen, the Girl Scouts organization is vastly more enlightened and progressive than the Boy Scouts, who are closely tied in with religion (i.e. Christian) and have been openly anti-gay for decades.

even the Girl Scouts evidently don't like the move.

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"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep." ~Rumi

@Deja @Deja
I have some big problems with BSA, but regardless of those, it's important to recognize that this policy change is being driven by demand, not from SJW's, but by regular kids who just want to have fun doing cool things, and want the opportunity to work hard to earn a very particular and special recognition.

If he's really been involved in BOY scouts for 35 years, then one thing he should realize is that cub scouts has been informally, but officially, inclusionary for a long time now. What i mean by that is: Cub Scouts has been officially "sibling friendly" for at least 15 years, meaning that non-scout siblings of either sex are welcome at most Cub Scout activities (including day camps and pack-level overnight outings -- extended camps not so much). The "informal" aspect is that girls have not been able to register and thus participate in "advancement" -- earning any of the various achievement totems available to official scouts.

What happens now is that at the age of 10 or 11, with the transition [edit to fix the direction] from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts, the girls are suddenly and firmly excluded from most of the troop activities. However, when they turn 14, they can join a Venture Crew -- which is a perfectly functional co-ed framework, with a focus on service and outdoors high adventure. My daughter spent 8 days this summer trekking on horseback around the New Mexico high country, at the Philmont Scout Reservation, in a co-ed crew of 4 boys and 5 girls. To my knowledge none of them were traumatized by the experience.

Ventures (except those who have attained First Class Scout rank in a troop) can do "anything" that "regular" Boy Scouts can do except:
A. Earn Merit Badges
and therefore by default
B. Earn Eagle Scout rank
In fact, they have an achievement rank that is essentially indistinguishable from Eagle Scout, in that they fulfill sets of requirements that are largely comparable to those required for the various merit badges needed to attain Eagle Scout. They just don't get to call themselves Eagle Scouts when they are done. And that matters, because "Eagle Scout" imparts a well-recognized status to the person who holds it.

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EdMass's picture

@Deja

Girls can do anything a boy can do.

I'm saying putting 1 or 2 girls in a mix of 15 to 20 boys semi-supervised is a recipe for disaster.

Safety Protocol: All Adult volunteers must pass a criminal background check. No Adults may meet with a Scout - one on one.

So, a teenage female scout need to speak with a "leader". Can she meet with 2 males? Must a female leader be present? Must there be 2 female leaders? Haven't met many volunteer Mothers that sign up for a 2 week backpacking trip in New Mexico.

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“Breaking News: The United States political system has been arrested for fraud, treason, and premeditated murder of democracy.” -- Big Al

Stop The War!

Deja's picture

@EdMass
Your post didn't mention any of this. It just insultingly asked us if we would be able to handle all the icky and tough stuff those rough and tumble, smelly, and apparently untrustworthy boys do.

Do you really have such little trust in the young men you're mentoring, or is it the conniving Jezebels you don't want to tempt them with?

As for two weeks in New Mexico, it's gorgeous up in the Sangre de Cristo mountains. I went to summer camp there. Would love to have had the opportunity to rough it in that gorgeous place.

And yes, if a female is there, then an adult female should probably be there too. It's what my son's school did when he'd go to multiple uil state competitions. A couple times he was the only student going, and he'd choose a friend to go with him because it couldn't just be one student and one teacher-chaperone. The world won't end.

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"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

@Deja
you may have opportunities to help lead co-ed Venture Crews attending programs at the Philmont Scout Reservation (near Cimmaron).

or paddling in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area of northern Minnesota.

etc.

you don't have to have "skin in the game" -- ie., be a parent -- to volunteer as a leader, whether in BSA or Girl Scouts. however, you may have problems with some of the attitudes about religion and/or patriotism in the BSA. i know i do. now that girls and gays can earn Eagle Scout , the only excluded groups I know of are transgender and atheist. neither of these are problematic for Girl Scouts.

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Deja's picture

@UntimelyRippd
Thank you for the info. I'm going to look into it now. Only thing that makes me nervous is the same thing that kept me from going to see the movie Finding Dory - the creepy old lady, there alone lol.

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"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

@EdMass
logistical problems -- sometimes, insuperable logistical problems. in Ventures, quite explicitly, you cannot have a girl on an outing unless there is a female leader -- though for activities organized by the crew (as opposed to the council, for example), i think most crews allow a girl's father as an alternative to a female leader.

on the other hand, we had 2 moms volunteer to do the Cavalcade at Philmont this past summer, but had to scrape around to find an adult male leader so that the 4 boys could go. and when our troop -- not crew -- went to the boundary waters a few years ago, my own group had 2 moms, 2 dads, and 5 boys. the moms did just fine, thanks. both were outdoorsy types with experience camping, hiking and fishing, though not much canoeing.

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Deja's picture

@UntimelyRippd
So does archery. Both take practiced skill. Both can also be pretty entertaining during the learning process hehehe.

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"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

EdMass's picture

@UntimelyRippd

Which is coed for those over 18 after both have been through BSA and GSA. This is about pre-18 BSA. It is not prepared or trained to manage this situation

Sign up.

Bring your daughters.

Be sure to come along on all the outings and don't "trust" men to adjudicate. Because Boys/Men.

Incredible.

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“Breaking News: The United States political system has been arrested for fraud, treason, and premeditated murder of democracy.” -- Big Al

Stop The War!

@EdMass
A. Ventures is for 14 and up. "Our" crew at Philmont (I did not go) had girls from 14 to 18, and boys from 15 to 17.

B. You expressed doubt that adult women will be interested in going out into the uncomfortable wilderness with those gross boys. I gave two examples -- one of the case of an official BSA Venture crew high adventure at Philmont, where the difficulty was finding male leadership; and one of a Troop not-quite-high adventure (we allowed 13-year-olds, and even one 12-year-old) canoe trip in the wilderness, where at least 2 moms were more than happy to come along, and did a great job teaching fishing and camping skills.

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Sigh

How would associating with girls their young age do that?

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CS in AZ's picture

@on the cusp

I'm not a fan of gender segregation. I don't see the need for or benefit of such groups. I have friends who belong to men's groups and women's groups, they find value in these, I respect that, but I don't understand it.

Probably because I have never fit in at any women's group. I'm atypical: I don't have children and don't enjoy kids or babies, I'm not particularly domestic, I'm not crafty, I don't sew or bake or basically do anything considered typically female. I strongly prefer mixed (any) gender groups and activities that are fun and interesting. I like being around people (or not) based on who they are, not what gender they are.

I try to get why people want to separate based on gender, but I really don't understand it. Probably never will. I just don't see why, if we have to have paramilitary "scouts" there can't be one scouting organization for everyone - why do we need boys-only and girls-only organizations? I don't know.

I'm completely mystified on how this would "emasculate" men and boys. Sounds like insecurities, to me. But perhaps there's another reason.

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EdMass's picture

@CS in AZ

Paramilitary? Oh please.

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“Breaking News: The United States political system has been arrested for fraud, treason, and premeditated murder of democracy.” -- Big Al

Stop The War!

TheOtherMaven's picture

@EdMass
to refer to any organized activity that involves uniforms and/or hierarchical structure and/or simulated/mock combat. (The Society for Creative Anachronism has started taking offense at being called "paramilitary" even though they do field "armies" and engage in simulated combat.)

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

CS in AZ's picture

@TheOtherMaven

And I'm also not talking about the clear paramilitary origins of the group. I mean things like this:

Boy Scouts depict US Iraq vets as terrorists in bizarre paramilitary training for teenage Scouts

The Explorers program, a coeducational affiliate of the Boy Scouts of America that began 60 years ago, is training thousands of young people in skills used to confront terrorism, illegal immigration and escalating border violence — an intense ratcheting up of one of the group’s longtime missions to prepare youths for more traditional jobs as police officers and firefighters.

Don't worry though, they don't exclude girls from this fun.

Cathy Noriego, also 16, said she was attracted by the guns. The group uses compressed-air guns — known as airsoft guns, which fire tiny plastic pellets — in the training exercises, and sometimes they shoot real guns on a closed range.

“I like shooting them,” Cathy said. “I like the sound they make. It gets me excited.”

Coolio, Cathy, you go girl. (Also, did you know that Eagle Scouts get an automatic higher rank if they join the army? Hum.)

Remember when the Boy Scouts were about being a good kid and helping others. Then they turned into religious right activists, and now they think they’re Blackwater.

Funny, that. According to Ed here, the Boy Scouts has never been about "being a good kid and helping others" -- can't expect them to behave; camping trips and stuff are about teaching boys to be disrespectful, dangerous, and untrustworthy. Great.

Well, bad news Ed. The military has women now. Police and firefighters have women now. Those boys do need to learn to act like civilized men. So sad for them.

I don't have a 12-year-old boy, Ed. Like I said, I don't have kids. But if I did, they would not join scouts or any organization that requires religious belief and discriminates against atheists.

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@EdMass
to ignore.

On the other hand, there are actual paramilitary programs for youths -- in the states, the Marines run a Young Marines program that competes directly with BSA for participants, and in Canada (when I was growing up, anyway), there were programs called "cadets", that were a lot like scouts, but organized according to the service branches (sea cadets, for example) and with an explicit military culture.

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Sigh

@on the cusp right there. That sounds just like Rush Limbaugh and I for one am sick to fucking death of hearing how any attitude of inclusiveness somehow demeans or emasculates men. Please.

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EdMass's picture

@on the cusp

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“Breaking News: The United States political system has been arrested for fraud, treason, and premeditated murder of democracy.” -- Big Al

Stop The War!

Raggedy Ann's picture

The women folk are just invading every space imaginable! Nothing is sacred anymore! Does this mean that boys will have to learn some manners earlier than usual or have to have and display manners all the time?

You ever go on an extended outdoor experience where you and the boys shit in the woods, or get up in the night to pee outside the tent? Didn't think so. ANSWER - YES, so stop with the assumptions.

You ever eat what a 14 year old cooks and thinks is edible after 4 days on the trail? Didn't think so. I'm sure the answer to this is another yes - stop with the assumptions only you have ever experienced this - or worse.

You really like how those nasty boys treat your daughter at school in a "safe" environment? Oh wait, that's different. So this is where you are saying boys shouldn't be taught respect - that respect for girls should be absent in boys-only environments?

This age group of BOYS (individually and especially in a self-supporting group) like sharp things, fire, mayhem and anything else they can get away with. You think there are no girls who like sharp things, fire, mayhem, and anything else they can get away with? Then you don't know me.

Come on, Ed - I really believe you know better than this. Did you actually think this through before you vomited all over the site with this drivel? Can't human beings just be human beings TOGETHER?
Dash 1

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

EdMass's picture

@Raggedy Ann

Not with one or two 13 yr old girls and 15 teenage boys.

Sorry, you can't understand this.

Boys can be cruel. Boys pick on the weak. Boys are fascinated with girls of their age. Boys are boys.

Why put your daughter in that situation?

With 2 to 4 adults one cannot be everywhere. It's not Romper Room.

Whatever you want. It's not the Boy Scouts. So go do something else.

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Stop The War!

Raggedy Ann's picture

@EdMass
Sounds like it's time for things to change.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

@EdMass The way you describe the boys you supervise is that if they are not found to have committed a sex offense, they can go on to become Eagle Scouts. And having girls around in the woods with these uncouth little shitheads might ruin their chances.
I am sorry your presence and influence with these boys makes so little positive impact on them.

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