My last essay on Russia!!

1] As I said before I would be surprised if Russia has not meddled to some extent in American Elections
2] As to changing the actual results I have always regarded that as a stretch, you better really get your proof together.
3] If you go for impeachment over this issue make sure everything you say is correct, get it wrong and you will lose badly in the next elections.
4] Not everything going horribly wrong can be attached to Russia!! no matter how hard you wish it were true.

Why would I say Russia meddled? Well the US has been meddling in European elections for decades, just look at Presidential comments during our elections in the past. Brexit was a case in point, Macron another. The USA has interfered much more directly in the rest of the world, invasions, black ops and corporate bribery. Hell, our whole military aid programs are direct interference. Why would Russia behave differently? But, but the US only does it because we are friendly and want the best for everyone, so exceptional.

Geopolitics is brutal, why were the Democrats so ill prepared if any of what they say is actually provable in black and white.

Cyberwarfare!! Well the US has been planning for awhile to take down the North Korean missile program by using exactly that, how about Iran? Which country has the most aggressive propaganda, military and secret services? Is the US even remotely innocent in Ukraine? NATO expansion is purely non-aggressive?

OK get pissed off if you like, but don't fall into the tin-foil arena. Lots of hearsay, rumours, leaks from anonymous sources coupled with bags of "breaking" don't actually make a case.

That's all I have to say about this really, lots of hearsay little solid and actual documentary proof.

Just a thought.

Russia!!!

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SnappleBC's picture

I'm perfectly prepared to entertain the #RussiaGate theory. I just need two things:

  • I need to know what, exactly, the theory is. So far at least it's changing about as rapidly as our "mission" in Syria.
  • I need to see the supporting evidence. As you note, so far there's been absolutely nothing that could be independently verified and pointed at something "damning". And no, I do not consider the existence of RT a reason for war. Nor do I see international business people having contacts in international counties as any sort of anything.

So I'm still waiting on the Democrats to pony up with those two items. If and when they do, I'll be happy to consider the whole thing. As it sits, it's self-evidently true that the theories are running well ahead of the facts. If they fail to do so, then they have damned themselves in my mind as willing to court global thermonuclear annihilation to score some cheap political points.

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

@SnappleBC The certitude of many Democrats is disconcerting.

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@SnappleBC sufficient evidence, some of the "facts" they cite have been discredited.

That seems to imply an attempt to deceive, and certainly makes "fact" checking more important than ever.

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SnappleBC's picture

@gustogirl @gustogirl

I'm sure we all remember the Russian hacking of the French and German elections.... that never happened according to French and German intelligence.

So when the Democrats make an appeal to authority of the American intelligence community the easy answer is that they've been undeniably and totally wrong twice on very closely related issues. Why on earth would I take their word on it this time?

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

@SnappleBC

When liars consistently lie, are unable to produce proof of their transference of blame to others and keep getting caught out in lies and attempts to transfer blame for their own actions elsewhere and have used such strategies before as some pathetic excuse for attacks on other targeted countries and are again accusing more targeted countries of doing what they do themselves as an excuse for attacking them - why should I believe word one out of their 'public' side and propagandistic media?

On the other hand, Trump being entangled with Russian Mafia or other criminals in the hope of profit would not surprise me - he's certainly going along with the mafia running/forming the US government... but I rather doubt that Putin heads the Russian mafia and I never was propagandized into paranoia over Russia!!! (or Communism taking over) and, luckily, cannot be stampeded by a catch-phrase of that nature.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

earthling1's picture

could shut this conversation down by simply saying;
"This is proof for the need to return to paper ballot only voting."

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Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.

dervish's picture

@earthling1 was "proof" that we needed digital voting. The cheating will continue no matter what, but you're right, it's harder to rig paper.

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"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."

snoopydawg's picture

@earthling1
The person who has been driving this is Brennan. He's the front guy for all the intelligence agencies and he has been the one who has testified to congress the most.,
Once his claims are debunked, the rest should follow.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

on Russia anymore, I can't get Jan Brady out of my mind.

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They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
And leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret-- A. Moore

@Johnny Q probably been away from the US too long.

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@LaFeminista It's always about Marcia" or something similar by Jan about sister Marcia. There's a meme but I would not know where to find that.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

@lizzyh7

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Roy Blakeley's picture

on the alledged DNC hacking and the Podesta spear fishing which I read in detail. There are non-primates that could see that they offer no proof of Russian involvement, or even that the DNC emails released to Wikileaks were the result of hacking. Since then, it has become clear that the FBI has never examined the DNC server, but relied instead on information from Crowdstrike. And then there were the NY Times and Associated Press releasing the information that 17 US security agencies agreed that the Russians were involved, which later turned out to be merde (3 may have agreed). All this stuff is echo chamber stuff with NPR and the corporate media hopping on board but with no persuasive evidence being presented. ....and then there is the evidence that the Gruccifer 2.0 leak was a doctored download onto a thumb drive from the DNC server. To me two things are clear. 1) The DNC and the corporate Democrat lackeys should not be allowed near an IT device 2) The proof that Russia was involved in either the Podesta spearfishing or the DNC "hacking" is about on par with the proof that Iraq was developing nuclear weapons.

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@Roy Blakeley

... And then there were the NY Times and Associated Press releasing the information that 17 US security agencies agreed that the Russians were involved, which later turned out to be merde (3 may have agreed). ...

Apparently, there were handpicked people from 3 agencies willing to take a bullet to any integrity they may have had...

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

coloradoblue's picture

yes, the Russians fucked around, or tried to. No, it probably didn't make a damn bit of different.

As for somehow, somewhere "proof" coming out, I'll be more inclined to think it's little more than another "spoof" from the CIA and NSA. Those guys and gals can make "electronic proof" appear to be from where ever they want it to be from.

Seriously Dems, shut up about Russia and work on 2018. And it would help if you would stand for a few things to help ALL Americans.

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Dear Dems: You lost the WH, Senate, House, dozens of governors, state level SOS and AG and about 1,000 state legislative seats. Maybe...you're doing something wrong.

@coloradoblue personally I find that hilarious.

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WaterLily's picture

Is this, which I've heard over and over - especially when I counter the "Russia hacked the election" narrative: "Putin's bots influenced the election by convincing people on social media that HRC was unelectable."

SMDFH.

I especially love it when a self-proclaimed "feminist" man-splains this to me, an unabashed third-option voter. Right, there's no possible way I examined the choices myself, and made a reasoned, highly educated decision based on my own values. No, I succumbed to "Russian" "group-think" based on a plethora of mis-spelled Facebook posts.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

It's dying down fast. Soon, no one will be mentioning Russia. Maybe a couple of news-talker burnouts will blurt about it out of habit, and the self-triggering PTSD types will likely mutter about it now and then. But overall, expect "Russia, Russia, Russia" to be replaced by nervous laughter and clumsy attempts to change the subject.

The lying tools who are in too deep have already developed a new doctrine to smooth it over. They will segue into tales of "1,000 paid Russian trolls" on the nation's message boards, politically disrupting the 'exceptional' minds of Americans — around the time of the US elections. Some outrage will be feigned along with calls for Google-style filtering of people's message board comments. And then fade to black.

It was just some harmless fun. Anyway, in the waining days of the Obama administration, a Bill was passed that made it perfectly legal for government officials to lie to the American people and run psyops on them whenever it seems like a blast of twisted propaganda would do them some good.

The only victims here were an entire generation of American investigative journalists and venerated reporters. Oh well… more jobs for the Millennials to fill. As for the rest of the world, their brains continued to function normally throughout the ordeal.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

@Pluto's Republic designed to be just that.

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snoopydawg's picture

@Pluto's Republic
Putin was responsible for the C'ville protests have been proven false. This should be the last leg of this crap.
It can't happen soon enough!

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

@snoopydawg

I dunno, they seem pretty addicted to recycling the same old propaganda over and over again, in the insulated-from-reality belief that enough suckers will repeatedly swallow the same BS forever. 'Cold War Russian Commies', for FSM's sake! How long has that been picking up freezer-ice fur, waiting in case of PR emergencies in the interest of more attacks on other people's countries?

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

lotlizard's picture

@Pluto's Republic  
is a raw deal.

Every German household has to pay Rundfunkbeitrag, a compulsory fee to support the ARD, ZDF, and regional networks. Seventeen and a half euros a month that for all practical purposes is a tax.

German public TV reported every Russia and anti-Trump rumor as if it were fact, while studiously not reporting on, for example, the content of Wikileaks reflecting badly on Hillary and the DNC.

Rather than reporting impartially, media in Germany in general practically stood up and went rah-rah for Hillary all the way, just as they’ve been rallying around Angela Merkel.

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on both Trump and Russia simultaneously, seems to me clear indication of a coordinated propaganda campaign. Remarkably similar to others we've been subject to, in the recent and not-so-recent past. As a result, I tend to not believe a word of it. Even if some of the information so conveyed might be true, the likelihood is that most of it is not.

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native

@native

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@LaFeminista
But also a deliberately induced paranoia. Or at least an attempt to induce paranoia.

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native

edg's picture

51J0ZZZJYVL copy.jpg

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Fionnsboy's picture

...and always figured, it was Clinton/The DNC that hacked themselves and left Russian fingerprints, so they could a)defend: turn the spotlight away from the revelations (the media-- obviously!--complied, understatement of the year) and b) attack: tying Trump to Russia; as well as c)forestall Trump's one good idea, detente with Russia (couldn't get their wars with Syria, Iran, and Russia if we had detente, now could they?) It was nice to have that essentially confirmed by the VIPS (see The Nation, Salon, etc) a few weeks back, information that was of course not covered by NY Times, WaPo, Boston Globe, Rachel, and the myriad others who have been 'Russia! Russia! Russia!' since the election.

Assange announced his intention to release damaging Clinton/DNC emails 2 weeks before he did so; the result of that advance notice (oh, to be a fly on the wall when that shit hit the fan in Clinton HQ!) is this disinformation campaign, which appears to be the most Clinton thing ever: disparaging a rival; protecting oneself by projection and 'killing the messenger;' and ensuring there would be no detente with Russia (gotta keep them warbucks flowing to all our MIC donors!)The one question to ask in assessing things of this matter is, "Who benefits most from this?" The answer to that question is why I always assumed they did it to themselves, as I don't believe in Happy Coincidences when it comes to our deep state folks. The VIPS assessment made it as far up the food chain as Bloomberg; it seems to have been swept away by Charlottesville. How convenient.

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Semper ubi sub ubi