A Statement from Delphine, one of the recently banned at Dkos, like me
This is from the Dkos helpdesk discussion "Wholesale Bannings II." I have been monitoring Dkos about this topic. In light of the defeat of the DNC supported candidate, Ossuf, and the continued smears of Sanders' supporters and progressives, in general, for no reason other than to blame us for Dem losses, I thought it worthwhile sharing:
{Redacted], it would make sense if we were banned in February, but I looked at my comments from February and while we're certainly not playing patty-cake, the only way those comments "explain" bannings is that someone is holding a very long-term grudge about comments made in the heat of things (before the Ides of March) and banning people now for things we said more than a year ago.
And not because those things violate any rules (at least not more than those on the other side of the argument broke them), but only because the person doing the banning disagreed with the comments.
In other words, in the scenario that exchanges in February are the reason we're banned now, in an argument where someone says "Your candidate lacks value, and here is why I say that!" and the response is "No, YOUR candidate lacks value, and here is why I say that!", only the person criticizing the "preferred" candidate is getting banned right now?
I know this is rehashing an old argument, but there is a chicken-egg thing going on here, and people getting lumped together and blamed for everything said by anyone on their "side" of the argument.
I had no anti-Clinton feelings, more of a "meh". At the same time, though, I was very excited to see that someone this SITE had collectively sighed over "wow, wouldn't it be cool if someone like Sanders or Kucinich had a chance? Wouldn't Paul Wellstone make a great candidate?"
So Sanders declared, and many rejoiced, only to find their excitement being dumped on. We weren't being dumped on for bashing Clinton, but for expressing enthusiasm for Sanders. It was bewildering. And it devolved from there, starting in April 2015 or thereabouts. And I did begin to dislike the policies and the campaign tactics. And I don't want to rehash further here.
But by February 2016, all bets were off. We were almost a year into it, having heard it all and slung it all. The sides were dug in, and no one was being kind. We each had our supposed safe spaces, but those were routinely invaded as well.
It WAS ugly. From all sides.But I thought we'd made it through. Those of us stayed and managed to maintain our mojo bars, and we voted for Clinton, and I thought we'd turned a corner. But there was no let up on hating Bernie, and there was the constant argument about whose fault it was and whether Hillary could or should have done something different. In the past few months I thought we'd mostly made it past that, but we were caught in patterns, and there is one refrain that we couldn't get past.
And it seems like it's not coming from here but somehow the zeitgeist, that one cannot be for economic justice AND for social and racial justice. Those of us who think we can and must address both were routinely savaged for being all about 'privilege' and throwing women and PoC under the bus in favor of white racists. And once that took hold here, we were caught up in a fight we for some reason could not find our way out of.
How shitty we were to one another over a year ago should not be a reason to ban folks now, though. Good people can disagree on how to get to the same place - democrats back in the majority creating good policy. We're literally fighting for the car keys because one wants to take a left turn and the other a right, but all combinations of turns result in progressive policies (social, racial, and economic) enacted by a progressive majority. At least that's the goal, right?
Someone quoted a comment I made, as if it were the worst hypocrisy in the world! That Bernie Sanders has a right to make money from a book advance and selling that book to us little folks for $20 each. I'm not really sure what's wrong with that - but I am sure that the need to bash Bernie for making money and the need to argue that it's okay for him to do that is not getting any democrats elected. Hate and blame and recrimination are not getting any democrats elected. Shouting about who has a right to criticize, and which person who wants democrats to win is the person who gets to speak, is not getting democrats elected.
To get democrats elected we need to work together. We need to stop assuming that adding economic justice back into the discussion means someone doesn't care about people of color, or women. We need to stop assuming that supporting a more incremental strategy means someone cares less about the end goal.
The political revolution is that iron worker running to unseat Paul Ryan. Simple as that. Regular working man unseats entitled republican asshole to represent the people of his beloved district. Change is uncomfortable and we've been scraping and chafing against one another but we're all in this together.
I have to do work on my house and it's like childbirth - I wish I could just leave and come back and the hard work would be done. And it's like what we're doing together here (or you're doing without me, at least I hope that's what ends up happening) - it's difficult and it's uncomfortable but it needs to happen. We need to rebuild the party, and that means a lot of arguing about how that happens. A lot of strife and sweat, and utter and complete disagreement, and resolution and eyes back on the goal, but it doesn't have to including blame and vitriol and shunning and personal attacks.
Whether or not I am ever able to post here [i.e., Dkos] again, I wish that for this site. That it becomes a microcosm of the party finding a way to heal this divide, and that in the future no one who genuinely wants the party to heal and regain the majority (and isn't flagrantly and constantly violating site rules) is excluded just because they have a different point of view about how to get there. I believe the party needs to embrace those voices in order to succeed.
I'm sorry for any vitriol from the primaries. It WAS ugly, and people were hurt, and good people were banned and/or left because it was so toxic. We weren't kind to one another.
I hope there is healing here (and in the party/real world), because Voldemort is truly the worst outcome possible, and we need to work together to defeat him and everything he stands for.And with that, I'll sign off. I'll check back with the mods to see if I've gotten a response. But there isn't more to say. It's been great, I'll miss this place, and I'm grateful for the support.
Enjoy, all.
There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind."
Vonnegut
My earlier diary on the mass bannings of Sanders supporters and progressive voices at Dkos can be found here.
Comments
Mass bannings at Daily Kos
I've been very disturbed at the latest Stalinesque behavior at Kos. However, this particular website has been part of an anti-Bernie social media campaign that has been waged almost relentlessly since the beginning of the year. One wonders who is behind this endeavor
Delphine, I'm distressed that you and a number of others have been banned simply for speaking your minds. Like you, I'm an older woman who lives in Northern California, who is a registered Dem and who voted for Hillary in the general
I'm expecting at some point to get kicked out as well...
Hello Munbeam, and welcome!
The culture is a bit different here and takes a little getting used to if you're fresh from TOP (The Other Place, DKos). Most of us have had experience over there though, current or past. Free speech is enshrined here, you can say what you like, the only rule is no insults. You'll find that C99 is a lot more relaxed, fun and respectful than TOP.
Free speech of course means that others can say pretty much anything too. You won't agree with everything here, and you aren't required to. Despite the rumors at TOP, C99 doesn't have a particular platform or ideology that it represents and that people must follow. Yeah, we're left wing, but we don't all agree and don't expect you to either.
Stick around, this place may grow on you.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
@dervish Thanks for the response
Thanks for the response. Yeah, it seems a lot mellower over here. I've been accessing Kos since 2008, it seemed not so nasty and negative back then, was more accepting of different points of view
It's definitely changed
Hope Delphine makes it over here.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Yeah, me too!
I like delphine. I'd say it's a shame that she was banned, but it's not, it's a blessing.
Being in TOP's Skull and Bones Society is a badge of honor.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
@dervish I agree. I agree so
I agree. I agree so much that a while back I went over there and purposefully made a GBCW diary just so I would have the skull and bones. I did have 4 bars of mojo (because for years I bit down on my real opinions to get along) but I no longer want to be associated with that place in a positive way. I renounce DKos as a toxic place full of lies. I'd no more want to be associated with it than I would Breitbart.
To think that I once relied on that place for a sense of community...
Me three
I think she would actually enjoy being here where we have the freedom to discuss the issues affecting everyone, not just partisan party politics.
This site, in its present form was actually founded over one year before the great edict. It began even earlier in different formats before becoming a website. The purpose of this site was to focus more on issues and policies rather than party politics.
I personally believe that Delphine, Steven D, and the others who were banned in this latest round were simply well known people who were chosen to make an example of, not because of any one thing they ever posted.
I have noticed a similar kind of hostility toward those of us on the left by Clinton surrogates on Twitter, most notably Joan Walsh, Neera Tanden, and Joy Reid. I honestly do not understand what they and Markos think they are accomplishing by their overt hostility to the left and the purging of the Democratic party. It is an abusive relationship that some of us have decided to abandon and never return to.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
@gulfgal98 Twitter has gotten
Twitter has gotten really awful. The attacks on Bernie and his supporters, as well as any of those on the left who dare criticize the Dem Party establishment are called Russianbots or worse
The must do everything in their power
to discourage and condemn anything remotely progressive. Medicare for All being one big huge mess that they must discredit as soon as possible, along with ending our stupid wars. If anyone on the left side of the aisle is permitted to even contemplate that they'll get bashed by these neo-con/neo-lib greed heads.
They want their share, damnit, before the entire mess comes crashing down. They know that's coming, they're not as stupid as they pretend to be. They simply want to cash out as much as possible before that happens. Using racism and sexism, why their RWNJ buddies taught them very well just how to use those to discredit. They are scared, they're losing the narrative with far too many people. This is like dealing with a wounded animal - at it's meanest and lashing out at whatever it can take down with it.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
share
They want all of ours, too.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
@gulfgal98 The function of the
The function of the Democratic Party, since about 1988 at the latest, has been to purge left-wing opinion out of public discourse.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@gulfgal98 But the Democratic
But the Democratic party also needs to keep us from building anything viable outside the duopoly. So the cycle of threats-abuse-threats continues. As long as people are sufficiently terrified of the Republicans and a terrifying, hostile, right-wing world which surrounds them and which they identify with the Republican party, they will stay with the Democrats at any cost, to avoid being alone in that terrifying, hostile, destructive world.
Recognizing that the Democrats are also part of that terrifying, destructive, hostile world is more than some people can bear.
Therefore the Democratic leadership and elites can do whatever they like to these people. Markos has been one of the overseers.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Preach!
it's an old line of work.
takes a special kind of man.
m. jimmie reed, encore.
Didn't Podesta instruct his flock leaders
…to select various known individuals and seek hurtful revenge on them to make an example of them to strike fear into the hearts of fellow members. In that way, they will always be obedient to all your proclamations.
Sounds a lot like Grumpy God™ from the Olde Testament. And this sounds like some of the wacky stories from that book. They are always big on sheep.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
I joined Daily Kos
In 2008. To this date I have never used a flag and relatively few rec's. I sometimes recommend diaries that I like. I have been flagged and had a few comments hidden one recently.
I have a high tolerance for bad speech, bad intention, etc. I am a firm believer in freedom of speech. I find many people on TOP sort of surly and willing to correct or lord it over, or object to comments for the most petty of reasons. The mob or crowd behavior is quite strange and often sort of toxic. I am increasingly disturb by the constant policing of rather mundane misbehavior. It's like their are whole groups of users who just want to corral and finger point anything they consider bad behavior.Sorry to hear of the recent bannings. They are so counter productive. It is just the Internet and mostly I don't even really know the people commenting so why would I want to get all excercised about what the were saying. peace.
Mob rule
This is exactly why we chose not to have a flagging system here. It is also why the thumbs up recommendations are anonymous. It is intended to prevent mob rule and flagging wars.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
That was a great decision Gulfgal
Get rid of all the clickable buttons whose sole purpose is spreading negative, anti-cooperative emotions. Keeping only the positive buttons is so much more constructive in a communal way.
Beware the bullshit factories.
@gulfgal98 You say "mob," I say
You say "mob," I say "roving bands of thugs."
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Another point of agreement ;-)
From a psychological point of view (and I'm an analytical watcher of people) I watched the sweetest hearts turn black over time. Their exposure to the "hate" button and then their frequent trips to the "punishment closet" to take pleasure in others being beaten — changed them profoundly over time.
I folded that manufactured damage into my propaganda studies (and into studies of those who derive pleasure and satisfaction from capital punishment), which greatly enhanced my understanding and tolerance. I developed new pre-emptive ways to mitigate the mental damage caused by exposure to degrading and depraved processes, like those employed at Daily Kos.
I imagine that's what the simple world of Sunday School and the Ten Commandments was all about: prevention and resilience (lead us not into temptation…). Sophisticated strategies for resilience are sorely needed in the complex world we occupy, too.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
@Pluto's Republic Wow, very important
Wow, very important. If you wrote an essay about that, I'd be one of your most vociferous commenters. It's one of the things we really should be talking about.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It's a deliberately constructed echo chamber.
And the people trapped inside are so overwhelmed by the noise that they're unable to hear the rest of the world laughing at them.
I honestly don't understand what they think they're accomplishing beyond some sort of false reassurance that they're, indeed, the "in" crowd.
DKos - no better example of why Democrats will keep losing. They refuse to listen to anyone but themselves, and think their opinions are shared by everyone.
With DailyKos' falling popularity
it seems suicidal to start banning people again. Obviously, some of this is being emotionally, rather than logically driven.
Again, the parallel with the party...
@WaterLily Unfortunately, the Kos
Unfortunately, the Kos mentality is very Berkeley. I lived in that town for 24 years, still love the place, and miss it........but there exists a mob rule mindset among some residents that can be very counterproductive
And that's why we talk about it.
And that's why we talk about it. Daily Kos is now such an excellent exemplar of everything the DLC and Turd Way have turned the Democratic Party into. We need go no further for evidence (although we certainly can!).
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Both sides?
Well, I suppose there was a modicum of ugliness from some Sanders supporters.
But the vast majority of the ugliness came from the Clintonites.
Egregious hypocrisy.
Open declarations of being OK with election rigging.
Deliberate and obvious smears.
Open accusations and not-so-thinly-veiled insinuations of sexism, racism, anti-semitism.
Open anti-atheist bigotry.
Dozens of blatantly "I used to support Bernie" propaganda diaries.
Brigading HR's.
Ad-hominem attacks not addressed by admins - or openly supported by them.
The list goes on. And on.
There was no bottom to the bullshit those fuckers engaged in. They are exactly the same as the worst RW Republicans, and they can rot in the same hell.
I think Delphine
was sacrificing truth for politeness, which is what people do when they are trying to salvage a poisoned relationship. Personally, there are people over there I could miss, but I made a clean break before I bent myself out of shape and said some nice things that I only wished were true.
BTW, I was listening to NPR today and there was an interview with the author of a book about "the football". It turns out that there are no fail safes - nuclear war is solely at the whim of the president. I remembered Hillary saying that she would use a nuclear weapon against Iran and conduct a "military response to Russian and Chinese hacking" and thanked God that Hillary lost. (and I'm an atheist) There is no doubt in my mind that we would all be dead today if that kill crazy Lovecraftian horror had been elected.
On to Biden since 1973
Sacrificing truth for politeness
yeah, that's what I'm assuming also. I know my personal bias probably prevents me from being totally objective, but there's just no way one can say what happened was tit for tat. But you are also right about that being a justification trying to save a poisoned relationship.
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
@doh1304
Same conclusions here! Everything pointed to a prompt global nuclear extinction, had the Mad Bomber been given the hot seat. And I rather suspect that the Electoral College agreed with these indications and, therefore, with us and that that is why they ultimately voted to keep Her out, when she'd otherwise have won according to what was publicly announced of the popular vote.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@nosleep4u Well...especially once
Well...especially once the throwing-chairs meme became a thing.
That was when things got the most poisonous. And now people are at it again because of the shooting.
To quote Indiana Jones, "Now you're getting nasty."
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
So glad I was one of the first rats off
That stinking ship-hole...
Wasn't banned, but my snark shield wouldn"t have held long. Considering that the people I loathe are still very vocal over there and feel no qualms about bad mouthing me for my work here...
It's like a California hippy town after the wine drinking yuppies move in... everything you love will be replaced with dress codes and shit you can't afford.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
@detroitmechworks Very nice metaphor!
Very nice metaphor!
Poor San Francisco. The shitty rich people noticed it had gorgeous weather.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Even truer for Oakland
It used to be a liberal, very diverse working class town. That's changed greatly in the last few years. I'm very thankful for rent control.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Welcome to any new refugees from TOP!
For any considering opening an account here, remember, you don't have to use the same username. If you want to, that's great, especially for quickly recognizing friends, but if you change it, the creepy folks at TOP won't be able to drag your stuff back over there and use it against you. Apparently they are doing that, which may have led to this round of bannings.
Have fun!
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
Oh, how adult of them!
Nothing better to do than run home to Daddy to tattle on us. LMFAO. I've seen this behavior referenced before, but it never ceases to crack me up. Especially when I picture particular bad boys (heh) doing it.
After Steven's first diary, I went to check my status. Reminded me why I hadn't been back in a year. My account was still active then, but the good news now is that if those fuckers decide to ban me, I'll never know -- can't be bothered to waste another second over there.
@dervish I second that welcome.
I second that welcome. Give us a whirl. If we're not for you, no hard feelings.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
All I can say is how glad I am to be gone
I deleted my stuff and left. I don't ever ck the place out. I honestly don't care, don't miss it, don't ever intend to go back. I never experienced an uglier site so full of so many ugly people. The owner sets the tone. He is welcome to his house of horrors.
Exiles are welcome here.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
You spoke my mind, dk.
I didn't delete anything over there, as I only has a couple of essays, but I don't go there and don't care to ever go there again. I left middle school in 1966.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Somehow, maybe not posting for over a year, I escaped Bojo.
I had several warnings, during the phase up to the Ides flush. But I have not looked back, except to peek, and groupthink is evident. I was a member (peeked @ date) from 2004. Too bad, there were online (virtual) relationships I developed. Life goes on. I have.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
online relationships
I miss ZhenRen and wish he'd show his face here.....
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
He was banned a while ago
from what I learned in the helpdesk thread. Banned for getting upset at what he saw as prejudice at people on the autism spectrum. Amazing what will get you banned.
"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott
ZhenRen
ZhenRen was honorable to the end, I see.
Now I really want him to show up here where he belongs.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Maybe he's here
How would one know?
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
why do you think.....
Why do you think I keep mentioning him?
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Heh, Just don't mention his name
Spies are about.
Kind of crazy that, that people would monitor this place to try and see who we are and what we say here. Maybe they'll learn something.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
My solidarity with ZhenRen
My solidarity with ZhenRen is notorious Over There as well as here. That train pulled out of the
closetstation years ago.Maybe they'll figure out that ours is the better way!
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
I miss Gooserock
Good strong writer and an original thinker -- moved from the PNW to the Rust Belt. Sounds like he went silent about the time C99 began.
I joined DailyKos back in 2008 as BO's campaign
was starting. I read up on Markos as he was considered a sort of liberal wunderkind blogger. I didn't like reading that he had started out as a Repuke. But, I gave him the benefit of the doubt cos I loved being a kossack. Now, I infrequently wander over, and I do not recognize TOP. I haven't been banned, but I never did diaries. It's pathetic how bad it's gotten. I know Delphine is very welcomed here and on blogs I infect now.
Rec'd!!
Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.
Thanks, Steven, for bringing this here.
Not that I want to relive the wars of dK, not that I think it of much value to dwell on them when we have so much of real value to pursue at this site and in our lives.
But I suspect that Delphine's words over there are but script in the damp sand, which will be washed away with the next wave of propaganda or bullying, or blow away as the winds of what's coming dry the waters.
Delphine's words are polite words, and passionate words, and the world is better for hearing them even if dK management does not think so.
Seriously, lurkers from Kossackland, you may not agree with all you read at c99p. None of us does, either, and we differ in what we agree or disagree with, but the thing is, you can say it here, you can (respectfully) express what you believe, what you want, without any fear or worry that it will bring rebuke or suppression. Debate, sure, but not bullying. It's an amazing thing to be able to express yourself openly, to breathe the air of independent thought again.
And delphine, you'd be welcomed here.
I think The Purge is ongoing
because they are gearing up for Hillary's 2020 run. Kos wants to make sure it's a complete echo chamber fanfest for Hillary by the time she announces.
I believe EVERY move Democrats have made since last November has been prep for #Hillary2020 which everyone knows is happening but nobody will admit.
Redemption. A reckoning. The comeback kid who embodies the spirit of the downtrodden and never stops fighting back. She will persist because we can't let the Russians get away with this. That's how the Lesser Evil 2 campaign will be framed.
It will take even more money to win this time - send some right now or we're all DOOMED!!!
Daily Kos is setting itself up for a better seat on the 2020 gravy train, and some of us are being tossed off like Slumdog Millionaire kids whose existence is inconvenient and unseemly.
I think you've got it, Dopeman
Her is a billion dollar enterprise and investment, and they won't want to walk away from that. As long as the DNC remains safely in apparatchik hands, nothing will change. They'll announce late though, because they won't want to give people time to organize and oppose Her.
The Podesta and DNC e-mails mentioned the Orange Overlord more than once (the lesser one, not the one in the WH). Of course he's on the gravy train, or wants to be. I'd compare him to a hooker, except that would be an insult to sex workers, they likely have far more integrity.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
@dervish That's idiotic
That's idiotic business practice. I mean, isn't there a fallacy about being afraid to walk away from a losing proposition because you've invested too much in it already? I know I'm not making that up, but I can't remember the name of it...the something cost fallacy?
Anyway, the point is, any sensible investor would have walked away from Hillary after this election. She was given every advantage--and I do mean every advantage, including some that aren't legal. And she still lost--for the second time. Her numbers drop more and more the more she talks in public. She is not suited for the job of managing the peons. She should be in a job where she never talks to an ordinary person--or in front of one.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Check out "Your Logical Fallacy is"
It's a great reference for linking a logical fallacy to call someone out on it.
I believe you might be thinking of the Gamblers fallacy? (Could be another that isn't contained on the site?)
I got to order my poster sized version for above my desk.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
@Alphalop Sunk Cost Fallacy!
Sunk Cost Fallacy!
The idea is that costs already incurred, resources already spent, can't be recovered and therefore should have no impact on future decision-making--in fact CAN have no impact on future decision-making that wishes to be rational.
For example, a business may have invested a million dollars into new hardware. This money is now gone and cannot be recovered, so it shouldn’t figure into the business’s decision making process.
Here's a link about it:
http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-cost-fallacy...
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It's called sunk funds or sunk cost. In big projects, when
some lowly engineer notices the project is just getting deeper in debt and not going where the objectives state, then a rehash of the project including how much was already spent, in the wrong direction, is undertaken.
The sunk funds argument, when used successfully, often leads to a badly done project with very costly overruns.
You may choose to look the other way, but you can never say again you did not know. ~ William Wiberforce
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My real life anaology
is a car we owned years ago. From the beginning, it was a lemon and it seemed that nearly every month something new went wrong. MY other half wanted to hold on to it because we had too much invested (in repairs) in it. It was stupid reasoning. I finally refused to drive it and said we needed to cut our losses, which we finally did. Not only did we cut our losses, but no longer had the headache of that car.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Vietnam war comes to mind
bygorry
waist deep in the big muddy
throwing good money after bad
is how we put it where I come from.
@irishking Just so.
Just so.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
But now Homeland Security has taken Top Security control over all electoral infrastructure, including voter registration data, so that The Right Corporate Candidate can win every time, and any Russian spies demanding an independent investigation of any irregularities had better watch how they mess with matters of National Security.
And with the shrinking pool of remaining independent media being shut down as 'fake news', how does news of further mass voter registration changes and other examples of voter suppression/vote alterations get out past the corporate media propaganda?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
They had a picture of $hrill the Borg over at TPW
a few days back. I laughed so hard, I nearly fell off my seat. Talk about classic and true!
Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.
Then what?
After another 4 years of losing to the Trump swamp, what then? Are they really going to make us go through that? They're doing a lot of damage to this Country. They must purge themselves and become an undeniable party of the people. Renounce super delegates. Introduce reforms that ensure grassroots politics. Renounce the propagandists like David Brock. Stop the profligate spending of money on trying to come up with better messaging and ads. Stop the distracting bells and whistles and make there be no doubt that Democrats are a party of by and for the People. Letting the Bernie people run things would be a huge step. Care about the future of the World.
Beware the bullshit factories.
This!!!
This is exactly what is happening and I think that this was done on purpose. During Obama's tenure the democratic party lost close to 1,000 seats at the state and local levels, plus the number of states that turned Red when republican won governor-ships.
This happened during the 2010 midterms and Obama then appointed DWS as head of the DNC and she and the DCCC continued to oversee the loss of state and local seats. They would consistently run either horrible conservative democrats or let a republican run unopposed. If a progressive candidate ran they would be on their own with no help from the DP.
In 2013 the democrats purposely gave up the only weapon they would have if the republicans were the majority party. THE FILLIBUSTER Now why in hell would they give that up and not be able to stop the upcoming train wreck of the ACHA? Or not be able to stop Trump's heinous cabinet appointees? The ones that they actually tried to stop from getting appointed? There were too many that the democrats voted to confirm. Like Ben Carson as HUD. Who Warren said she felt like she HAD to vote for him in case Trump appointed someone worse. Someone worse that Carson? He is one of the worst and if you blocked him then you continue to block the next worse one until a decent one is appointed. You don't just give in on the first pass. Well, people who were actually trying to look out for their constituents would.
And this is why I am thinking that the DP purposefully set out to lose their majorities starting right after Barack the wonder boy was elected and went back on almost every campaign promise. And for the life of me, I cannot fathom why they would want this to happen. Plus we are very few states away from a constitutional convention which would allow the republicans to change the constitution. For what gawd damned reason would they want this to happen?
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
DO. NOT. hold your breath!
DO. NOT. hold your breath waiting for this to happen; you will die!
(And we DO. NOT. want you to die!)
Don't misunderstand me. It would be great to get the Dems back on the track which kept them in power (in Congress if not the White House) for 30 straight years 1945 - 1975.
But I don't expect that to happen. Too many are paid far too well to keep things as they are.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
In a word...
Yes.
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
The only time I will give money to a politician
…is AFTER they are elected, and ONLY in exchange for enacting legislation I favor.
I'm playing by the New Rules of Democracy in the US — Citizens United.
We citizens need to get united and put our political money into hiring lobbyists to manipulate members of congress into making laws that benefit the American people. It's just dumb to waste money on Parties or on Faux Democracy.
First New Lobbyist-Assisted Law to Enact: Military action or military bases are forbidden in any nation (or state) that two-thirds of the American people cannot find on a world map.
/=/snark
(Would it be be okay to say this and mean it at Daily Kos?)
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Oh ffs. They ban people who don't support their distorted views.
They ALWAYS HAVE. Moosetits has always had a loyal band of flunkies willing to enforce his edicts and they've done their jobs well. The banning crap didn't start with this past election or with Sanders supporters. It's been going on all along. Some of us got it for pointing out the corruption involved in the ACA 'hearings and that Prez Hopey-Changey was setting us up as captured clientele to Big Pharma and United Health Care.
There is, has been, and always will be only ONE rule to that place and that is keep your lips pressed tightly to Moosetits ass or get the fuck out.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
His primary job is to deliver up a constituency
that will vote and donate in the desired way. The free exchange of ideas is just an illusion.
Here it's real.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
some of us
some of us got it for pointing out the falling of building 7
bygorry
It's still there
Haven't you heard? Who are you going to believe, TOP or your lying eyes?
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
One look at the charred remains of Grenfell Tower
…in London can bring on the thinking man's PTSD.
"B-b-but, it's still standing."
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Let the charred remains of Grenfell Tower stand for all-time,
I say, as a reminder of Neoliberal/Conservative economic policy based on Profit>People.
Did a bit on the #GrenfellTower tragedy in my OT Tuesday.
Might just be the thing that finally sets the tinder of the 99%'s anger ablaze too.
"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"
- Kurt Vonnegut
@Mark from Queens Unfortunately, it
Unfortunately, it probably won't trouble the sociopaths. It troubles people like us. You have to have empathy before you can get upset by it.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Amanda Matthews A very old form of this:
A very old form of this:
alleging that there was election fraud in 2004 was an early reason for banning.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
We shouldn't expect delphine here anytime, soon.
This is what she had to say about caucus99percent after she was banned:
Or maybe our Jill Stein cooties won't be so off-putting now that she has been banned by the cool kids.
@psychodrew I would be fine with
I would be fine with delphine being here, but, of course, I'm not gonna hold back if I think her arguments are illogical, or her facts in error.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Sanders cooties!!!
Exactly.
Tell her to try PUMA Hell:
Democratic Underground.com
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
Democratic Underground.com
Democratic Underground.com
I lasted 40 seconds there.
And that includes the first-ever page load which takes about half of that,
PUMA Hell is right!
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Stockholm syndrome
As Above, So Below
Interesting that the self-destructive behavior of TOP mirrors that of the Party it worships. The former's number/hits/members are plummeting-- what to do? Ban more members! Censor! Restrict free and open exchange (at a time when free and open exchange MUST happen)!
The Party? Loses to the most imbecilic, moronic, unqualified candidate in the history of our country by running a two-billion-dollar infused candidate that exemplifies (and with her spouse is a primary cause of) the almost-traitorous drift of the once great People's Party of FDR, JFK, RFK, MLK, etc with its abandonment of the people, wages, jobs, health care, unions, etc so it might run into the arms of the MIC, Wall Street, Corporations/Lobbyists, for profit prisons, etc; then, rather than learn from this debacle, doubles-down, replaces Ellison with Perez, declares "nothing wrong here" (Pelosi) does virtually nothing for the two special elections in Kansas and Montana where we had truly progressive people running, but then spends $30 million on a mealy-mouthed Hillary-boy neophyte who doesn't support Medicare for All, a Living Wage, (he said he was in favor of an increase in the minimum wage, but never said how much) tax equality, etc, all the while fueled (the Party and TOP) by an undertone of viciousness, pettiness, revenge, group-think, and suppression, and a keen, almost clinical, aversion to do any needed soul-searching, admission of wrong, and resultant change-- and this has been going on through the loss of over 1000 seats on a national and state level!!!!!!
It sounds to me like Kos had been promised some kind of high position in Her Heinous' administration, and is still throwing things around, this time non-fealty bearing members. Yes, I said her Heinous, for she and her husband and their grifting, war-loving, Neoliberal ilk have been a cancer on this party since they first crawled out of Arkansas. But 'they' (and TOP, and its group-think Hillbots) rather than do some much-needed soul-searching, write diary after diary excoriating Trump (not that he shouldn't be...), Russia, Russia, Russia, and blaming everyone but themselves (Russia again, Comey, Bernie, racism, misogyny, deplorables, the media (!!!!)) while ignoring the elephant (as it were) in the room, i.e., that people who voted for Obama (twice!) finally realized they were being kicked further to the curb by these self-serving sucklers at the corporate teat, and in desperation (or perhaps revenge) turned to the only other option.
How pathetic that they couldn't see that the ultimate white privilege was to support Hillary, in the face of a movement (not just a man) whose mission was to return government to the people vis a vis health care for all, 'free' education (not free at all but paid for by our taxes), a living wage, a multi-billion dollar jobs/infrastructure program, post offices as banks/community centers (Debbie 'Pay Day Loan Wasserman Schultz didn't like that one!) an urgent focus on the most pressing issue of our time, climate change (Climatologist James Hanson declared HRC's (the Queen of Fracking!) climate change proposals utterly inadequate and "just plain silly") etc etc.
Delphine, you were far too kind and gracious in this Swan Song, and TOP will be a less civil, less diverse, less balanced, and less informed place without your voice. In the final analysis, they didn't deserve you.
Semper ubi sub ubi
A hundred thumbs up to this!
One dissension. How is voting for Hillary "white privilege" when her most enthusiastic supporters were black?
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
@The Voice In the Wilderness Hi Voice, thanks for
Hi Voice, thanks for the kind words and query-- I replied at some length, but alas, the internet gods seemed fit to whisk it away into the Etherzone. Will try again later, but right now the doggies must be fed!
Semper ubi sub ubi
In essence, it is white privilege
to vote for one more neo-liberal/neo-con when you see what the real problems are in this country. HER would like you to think that by voting for her you aren't a racist or privileged but really, that's just spin. We all know how much she really cares about minorities or women by her policies, not her words.
In my opinion, if you can't admit that a lot of racism is in fact due to economic issues, then to me you are indeed guilty of privilege, especially when you outright deny that and shame anyone else who might make that argument. Sure there are genuine bigots who'll never be reached but by not even trying to address the elephant in the room of lost wages and downright struggles to survive you aren't addressing the real problems that drive much of it. RWNJ learned decades ago to deflect economic issues by using race, how is what Shillary and crew are doing that much different?
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
@lizzyh7 How about slavery
How about slavery itself, which started all this shit?
Was it not an economic institution?
Hasn't much of this been about the desire to have unpaid labor that you could abuse as you liked, indefinitely? Isn't that why people tried to make other human beings into cattle?
Not that I'd treat even cattle the way they treated slaves, but that's beside the point.
Colonial capitalism wants racism, possibly even needs it, so it can have an excuse to treat human beings like that.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
That's how the Italian lords treated the serfs as recently as
the 1890's. I'm quite sure that that English lords treated their serfs the same way. When they quit I don't know.
Irish friends have told me that English landlords ALWAYS treated their tenants like that.
So it's not a black/white thing and unless one's ancestors were slave owners or in the KKK, white people in general have nothing to feel guilty about.
Damn it! In the '60s we were trying to get AWAY from the idea that the color of your skin determined your worth. Now it's 1940/1950 with the colors reversed.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Clever bastards, aren't they?
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Slavery is legal under the US constitution
… in Article 13. I happen to have two acquaintances in forced slavery right now. Both do work for major corporations and earn about 30 cents per hour, which they must use to pay for their food and electricity. One has civilian owners with destructive health care, the other has government owners with adequate health care. Neither get enough calories to eat and are very skinny. Both have acquired Hep C, which they will die of. Neither one can vote, but both really want to engage. (I feel bad about the voting thing on many levels, but never talk about it.)
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
@Pluto's Republic If they are in
If they are in prison, I totally understand what you're saying. Otherwise, I need some clarification!
Prison is the convenient loophole through which colonial racist capitalism maintained slavery, IMO.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Yes. In prison, which begs the question:
A. Do people assume that the punishment for a crime is being removed from society and locked away somewhere neutral for a certain period of time?
B. Or do people assume that once the criminal is locked away from their lives, their families, and society, it is only then that the nightmarish and brain-damaging punishments for the crime are to begin?
I'd really like to know which one the American people think was meant to be the punishment for a crime in the US. It doesn't seem to be written down anywhere. Knowing the answer to that can tell us how much the diminishing of the People's liberties and rights are manifested directly into reality by the people themselves.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
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