From the official transcripts of the DNC lawsuit
http://jampac.us/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/042517cw2.pdf
I read through it all and thought I’d post some of the more interesting parts.
The DNC lawyers (hereafter referred to simply as The DNC.) try to argue that the court has no right to judge how they enforce internal rules.
THE COURT:
You’re talking about the DNC’s charter
now.
MR. SPIVA:
Yes, their bylaws, which is where this
purported obligation arises to remain neutral as between the
candidates.
THE COURT:
Article V, Section 4.
The DNC says their duty to conduct a free and fair election is a “purported obligation”.
The plaintiffs lawyers (hereafter referred to as The American People) shoot that argument down completely:
in Madigan vs. Illinois, a 2006
opinion from the Supreme Court, the Court held:
“Consistent with our precedent and the First
Amendment, states may maintain fraud actions when
fundraisers make false or misleading representations
designed to deceive donors about how their donations
are used.”
Furthermore:
This is not a case about enforcing political promises.
They want you to think that, I believe, because they want to
paint this case in a line of cases that have been filed
throughout the years where candidates may make political
promises, and then disappointed voters bring lawsuits to
enforce those promises or seek damages in one form or another.
But that’s not what this case is about. We’re not talking
about campaign rhetoric. We’re not talking about a campaign
platform of any kind.
What we’re talking about here is the very core of what
our democracy runs on, the very basis for our democracy, which
is the conduct of free and fair elections. That’s the basis,
that’s the bedrock on which the claims of this case take off,
because the election — the elections — as American history
has developed, the conduct of those elections, for better or
worse, has come under the domain of the two major political
parties in this country.
And then The American People address the real reason the Democrats want you to get all riled up about Russian intervention and take your eyes off of the Real Ball:
I just think the context of when this complaint was
drafted is important. We drafted this complaint and filed it
in June of 2016, which was before the DNC primary — or the DNC
convention occurred in July. And, at the time, the evidence
that we had access to consisted of this set of documents thatyour Honor referenced in your prefatory remarks that were
released by a figure named Guccifer 2.0.
And the core document that was released by that
individual on that website purports to be an internal DNC
memorandum, which outlines a strategy for advancing Hillary
Clinton to the nomination of the Democratic Party before the
primaries had even really gotten off the ground. And this was
at a time — you know, Bernie Sanders I believe had announced
for about a month before this particular memo came out. But we
think that’s clear evidence of what the DNC’s intent was
throughout the primary process. It was to leverage their
connections with the media in order to advance Hillary
Clinton’s candidacy at the expense of everybody else.These additional leaks have shown that DNC officials
participated in creating and disseminating media narratives to
undermine Bernie Sanders and advance Hillary Clinton.
It shows former DNC Chair Donna Brazile giving debatequestions in advance to Hillary Clinton during the primaries.
It shows the DNC at one point changing its donor
policies specifically to favor Hillary Clinton.
It shows the scheduling of debates to favor Hillary
Clinton over Bernie Sanders.
It shows, in general, the DNC pouring its considerable
resources and relationships into propelling Hillary Clinton to
the nomination.
And then the judge makes The DNC look like unprepared idiots:
THE COURT:
Does the DNC help to fund the state
primaries?
MR. SPIVA:
Uhm, you mean literally, the mechanics of
the primaries, your Honor, the actual holding of the election,
the primary election?
THE COURT:
Does the DNC, with the money that it
raises, use some of that money to help fund the states put on
their individual state primaries?
MR. SPIVA:
I don’t believe so, your Honor. No.
THE COURT:
But you don’t know.
And then The DNC alleges it has the inherent right to fix elections:
The party could have favored a candidate. Even if it were true, that’s the business
of the party, and it’s not justiciable.
THE COURT:
All right. Thank you, Counsel.
MR. SPIVA:
Thank you. And I’m happy to answer —
THE COURT:
Oh, no, I’ve got more questions.
And then the judge hands it over to The American People to slam dunk The DNC:
THE COURT:
What does the plaintiff say on the
operational aspect of the DNC?
MR. BECK:
Well, your Honor, I’m shocked to hear that
we can’t define what it means to be evenhanded and impartial.
If that were the case, we couldn’t have courts. I mean, that’s
what courts do every day, is decide disputes in an evenhanded
and impartial manner.I think that’s why the Democratic National Committee has it in
its charter, because if you don’t have the organization that is
responsible for organizing in this very large sense the
nominating process for president, which entails multiple
elections in every state of the union, if you’re not evenhanded
and impartial, then you don’t have a democratic process. I
think it’s that simple.
And then we get into the whole gist of what is a democracy and what constitutes fraud.
THE COURT:
Let me ask counsel. If a person is fraudulently
induced to donate to a charitable organization, does he have
standing to sue the person who induced the donation?
The DNC tries to weasel out of giving a direct answer to the question and instead addresses other hypothetical situations other than what the judge asked. The judge then allows The American People their reaction to The DNC’s response and this is what they had to say:
THE COURT:
First, your response to their answers.
MR. BECK:
Yes. And I’ll take the last part first,
which was the question your Honor had posed, is there — and
I’m paraphrasing it, but is there a material difference between
a campaign promise, such as “read my lips, no new taxes,” and
representations that are made in the DNC’s own charter?
And, quite frankly, if what defendant — or what the
DNC has just said is true — and I really hope it’s not true,
but if what he said is true, then I think it’s a really sad day
for democracy in this country. Because what essentially the
DNC has now stated in a court of law is that it believes that
there is no enforceable obligation to run the primary elections
of this country’s democracy in a fair and impartial manner.
And if that’s the case — and I think counsel just said it himself — then really, you know, the sky’s the limit
in terms of what the DNC and any party, for that matter, can
do.
After a few hours of wrangling over jurisdictional issues and so on, I found this to be quite interesting:
(The American People)
it just doesn’t make sense to me why
somebody would participate in a political process by paying
money into the process, when they knew that that process was
rigged from the start, which is what we’re alleging.
To which The DNC replies:
I think actually the opposite conclusion is more
logical and certainly apparent, that you would to try to beat
the system, if you viewed it as rigged.
The DNC tried to say that there can’t be a class action because:
we would still have the right, your Honor, to challenge each
class member’s standing. Did they rely on statements of the
DNC? Did they even know about them? Would they have not given
if they had known? Same with the Sanders subclass. Same with
the third subclass.
To which The American People replied:
MR. BECK:
Again, I think that — I think,
fundamentally, people give money to candidates and can — and
political parties, because they believe that we have a fair
democratic process. And I think that that’s a baseline
assumption whenever a donation is made.I think that there’s a fundamental understanding in
this country that’s taught from a very early age, certainly I
remember it, that we live in a democracy. And I think a
fundamental part of what a democracy means is that elections
are not conducted in this biased and predetermined way. And I
think that everybody who seeks to participate in the political
process, especially when they’re going to the trouble of
cutting a check to a candidate that they support or a party
that they support, they believe that those candidates and
entities are taking place in a process that is fair and impartial,because they believe in a process that’s democratic.
So, I don’t think someone necessarily needs to read
the articles we’ve cited or the charter to be in the class of
people that have been defrauded or deceived or unjustly treated
in terms of the unjust enrichment claim by the DNC’s conduct.
And in their closing statements, The American People stated:
If it’s the case that an entity, the DNC, its
chairperson can rig an election, and there’s no remedy at law
for people who’ve made financial contributions on the basis of
what they’ve omitted to tell the public, well, I submit that
that’s a really dire road for this country to be on.
Then the judge closed the proceedings with this statement:
This is a
very interesting case, to say the least. And counsel for the
plaintiffs spoke about whether or not our society — these are
the Court’s words, not his words, he did not use the word
“society” — but whether society is in a dire situation. And
so I leave the lawyers with this. Democracy demands the truth
so people can make intelligent decisions.
Comments
evening bobm...
i don't believe for a second that the dnc's legal team was the least bit unprepared, though their responses to the judge's question about the relationship of the dnc and the state parties might have made them look foolish.
as i understand it, the law firm (perkins coie) representing the dnc in this action have been active in the process all through the primaries and beyond. one of perkins coie's lawyers (marc elias) was also hillary's campaign attorney.
the idea that there would be any lack of knowledge about how the dnc related to the state parties (or the arrangement of the hillary victory fund and dnc with the state parties for that matter) is absolutely laughable.
that perkins coie lawyer (spiva) was clearly dodging the questions and mocking the court and the process.
@joe shikspack of course he was. What I
Which goes to show how deep in shit these lawyers really are.
Perkins Coie is the DNC's regular law firm
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
The real argument (IMHO) is about
whether or not a private organization has the right to control what should be a democratic process.
This link is very helpful in defining the answers to that question.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
From what I have read
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
gulfgal, you're right on top of the weak point of the DNC case
That's called "chutzpah"
and is in fact the classical definition of the term.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
I was pondering that same point
I've run non-profits which, I grant, are not the same. But we had by-laws and those by-laws specifically were required to exist in order to protect those who donated money and time to our cause. Yes, we did in fact have to operate by them. The penalty for failing to do so was to lose our non-profit charter.
And you know, at this point it hardly even matters if they win or lose the case. They've already stated their position. People like my family wouldn't care if they lost... they don't seem to care about anything beyond what the legacy media tells them to care about. People who are more awake already know unequivocally where the DNC stands.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
yep. Win or lose
the DNC is hosed. Her is next.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
#StrongerWithoutHer n/t
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Thanks gulfgal
I'd like to see constituents start showing up at these
Democratic town hall meetings, quoting some of the more outlandish statements made by the DNC lawyers, and then asking the congressperson whether they agree or disagree with the DNC lawyer's statements.
And by the way, check out this short (0:47) clip of DWS.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-kOIkTZLsU width:500]
Isn't that exactly what happened? It wasn't just DWS doing everything. She was conspiring with other staffers within the DNC and outside the organization as well (like the media)
It wasn't just collusion. It was a conspiracy. That's what they ought to be charged with. Conspiracy.
@LoneStarMike RICO charges should be
@LoneStarMike I'd like to see Tom Perez
I can hear him now in that cracking voice of his
"Diversity and being inclusive is our party's greatest strength. We believe in the notion that everyone deserves an equal opportunity. When we lead with our values, we win. When we lead with our actions we succeed. We just need to improve our technique in order to get our message out that we must unite against Trump."
In other words - a big fat word salad.
LSM, hasn't he said exactly this before--many times?
Yes
I assume his answer about the DNC lawsuit would be similar.
Probably much the same
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
But he can read his prepared talking points really well
". . . when we lead with our values as Democrats . . .."
Values? What values? This election cycle were heard from John Lewis that Democrats don't want "free stuff" like a college education which currently can condemn the student to a lifetime of financial servitude. We heard that there is a special place in Hell for women who didn't vote for Hillary Clinton. Does Perez mean values like those? Because they are values that I, as a former lifelong Democrat, do not recognize.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
Amen, sister.
That gets back to something I say a lot nowadays
Of course I didn't vote Democratic. I'm a liberal.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
As opposed to a neoliberal. BIG difference!
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
Remember how people would be obtuse about the term “neoliberal”?
In the early days, there were a few people posting here who, every single time, would act as if they’d never heard anyone use the term “neoliberal“ before. They’d make everyone explain over and over where the term came from and why it was different from just plain “liberal” without the “neo,” and on and on. The claim might even be raised that terms like “neoliberal” and “neocon” are actually veiled ethnic slurs.
It seemed like deliberate obfuscation. It was so frustrating. Nice that we’re further down the road now.
@Lily O Lady
They value money, the more the better. And they value those who can pay them the big bucks to drain everyone and everything else to further enrich those already having having drained most - and who will pass a cut of that along to their political proxies.
They value humanity according the monetary value they can potentially receive from them - not the bits from the victims with little, but the ones who they ensure will get that little and accumulate a lot more thereby, eventually leaving the valueless 99% with nothing.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Or, in other words,
"It's our party, and the 99% ain't invited."
Thank you all for coming, and remember... get those contributions in early and oftern! Thank you all so much!
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
"...trust me.." - DWS
how did the words come out of her mouth? lol.
please let them put her on the stand.
@LoneStarMike
Lol, and this while their own emails and their own words are out there, showing what pathological liars, as well as cheats, they are. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but can they still fool enough of the people for a plausible 'correct' corporate candidate win, if they are once made aware that a better alternative is finally available and is - despite the propaganda - viable? They went for Bernie - and Bernie somehow managed to ensure that the ideas and contrast are finally visible in the corporate media and townhalls, where even the corporate-media restricted can really see the difference. Much to the corporate Dems disgust.
Of course, TPTB are unworried right now because TPTB will run every aspect of the electoral infrastructure - including voter registration - through Homeland Security and there has not yet been a really major, general public fuss about that.
Why not? Because the bulk of the public are generally not aware of that, any more than they are of the 'legalization' of government propaganda to be used against them and even those who have been informed of such things often continue to speak of electoral change without mentioning this or considering such as these as factors, along with the fact that evidence and information regarding elections has been isolated to Top Secret Homeland Security and what's only described as 'interested private parties' who can attend meetings/discussions with HS (not the public, from whom electoral information can now be withheld on the grounds of 'National Security') and therefore the 'interested private parties' have access to details and decision-making, while any hope of citizen/independent oversight of elections has been neatly eliminated.
And there is the potential for the questioning/protest of highly questionable election results, or of public concerns over what's become now-routine electoral fraud, to be made illegal, under the claim of 'National Security'. Or of 'Fake News/Foreign Propaganda' because 'we have always been at war with Eastasia/Russia/Somalia' and 'they hacked the election and made Hillary lose last time and only Eastasia/Russia/Somalia spies would cast doubt on governmental pronouncements'. No more Habeus Corpus, and kidnapping citizens to hold them incognito's OK, while slave labour and torture are 'legal'.
If there's not even a public uproar about any of this now, why should they worry?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Re: Perkins Coie - also represents Correct the Record
2015 Mid Year Report
(Covers July 1 through December 31, 2015)
April Quarterly Report
(Covers Jan 1 through March 31, 2016)
July Quarterly Report
(Covers April 1 through June 30, 2016)
At the end of that Quarter, Correct the Record showed that they still had a balance due to Perkins Coie of $30,102.23 (Page 273)
October Quarterly Report (Amended)
(Covers July 1 through September 30, 2016)
So the first two payments add up to what was owed Perkins Coie at the end of Q3, and then you have two additional payments totaling $45,034.43. But if you scroll down to Page 282 It shows that at the beginning of the Quarter, $30,102.23 was owed. Then it shows Amount Incurred This Period - $0.00. And then it shows Outstanding Balance at Close of This Period - $0.00.
Shouldn't the Amount Incurred This Period be $45,034.43?
Year End Report (Amended)
(Covers October 1 through December 31, 2016)
The Arrogance is infuriating to me...
"if the system is rigged, you'd try to bribe officials" of course assumes that everybody has lots of disposable income to give to politicians.
It's also incredibly Banana Republic thinking. And I mean the kind of Republic set up by us to make certain a corporation keeps their overseas profits.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Projection
That comment by the DNC lawyer was astounding to me. I think it says everything about him, and nothing about Bernie's supporters or the voting public in general. The fact that he apparently assumes that everyone operates the way he does is quite narcissistic.
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
I hope they bring forth
testimony from some of the more indigent contributors to Bernie's campaign.
I couldn't afford it and sent him money.
Neither could I, really.
It doesn't even make sense.
Why donate to the candidate you know the election is rigged against?
That's like betting on a fighter you know is about to take a dive.
Even assuming you know you are playing in a corrupt game, how do you "beat the system" by donating to the loser?
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
You don't if you thought the system was rigged...
Since they didn't donate to Hillary, clearly they didn't think the system was rigged.
So, therefore, The system is not rigged because it fooled people into thinking it wasn't rigged.
Anything they say about it NOW has no bearing on what they believed they were donating to at the time. As we all know, intent matters. The intent of those individual voters was to give to a system they did not at the time believe was rigged. When it didn't come out like they thought because of not understanding the system, THEN they complained it was rigged.
They could have saved us all a lot of time and voiced these concerns at the proper time, to the proper authorities. That of course, would be the people who they claim rigged the system. Since they didn't at that time, they have no grounds or standing to complain about an activity they willingly participated in.
Therefore, this whole thing is a nothingburger, and we need to get back to the process of winning elections.
/TOPrebuttal
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
@detroitmechworks The DNC lawyer
Hard to know whether that's just lawyerly twisting of logic or whether he really thinks that way. Unfortunately, I have a feeling it may be the latter.
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
heh. very nice.
You did that much better than the DNC attorneys.
This bit is quite philosophical actually:
So IOW, if an election is rigged in the forest, and noone is there to see it rigged, was it really rigged?
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
Oh, I get it now. It’s “Schrödinger’s Democrats”
As long as no one could see inside the DNC box, the primary both was and wasn’t rigged.
But then that darn Seth Rich or the Russians or whoever hadda go and let the public open the DNC box and look inside, causing the wave function (the money tsunami?) to collapse into the “rigged” state.
4-D chess is out and quantum physics is in. Ommm mani padme hum, the Zuckerberg uncertainty principle, yadda yadda.
The primary wasn’t really, truly, and conclusively rigged until the public opened the box! It’s the public’s fault for opening the box!
But a lot of people did complain
IMO the only good thing to come out of this flagrant anti-democratic fiasco was the fact that the 'people' did not buy into their arrogant rigging and The Mad Bomber lost. The DNC's argument that all's fair in regards to political lying is another example of how our electoral system and all our democratic systems. The separation of powers checks-balances and the rule of law are gone daddy gone. My lying eyes told me that on every level this was a farce not a primary election. The DNC/Podesta e-mails confirmed what I saw happening in the primary.
Since Bush vs. Gore and the abominable CU, we have not had a valid election in this country. We're back to the good old Tammany Hall days writ large. People are just not this stupid with the advent of the internet. This fraud and corruption of a democracy occurs on every level as the complicit duopoly controls the voting process from county,city/state right up up to national. Justice? Forget about it. All we the people get is fear and the Russian thing.
I donated to Bernie and could not afford it. I supported him not because I believed he was going to take the party back but because he engendered and gave voice to people who wanted a real democracy and some representation. They stood up and said enough is enough. Now we've got all these phony Democratic resistance movement orgs. and people are chicken little'ing out because Trump's wrapping his arms around the evil empire Russia/Trump. My god how many times will people fall for and believe that this country has a democratic electoral system.
This post partisan election display is disgusting. It's hard to get all worked up about the Republicans when the loyal opposition is as godawful as the evil Reds. The DNC is at it again with this latest round of fear mongering and culture war loathing. Socially liberal my ass. Where's some real obstruction? The global oligarchy and the neoliberal lap dog media is doing the same damn thing to Corbyn. I don't blame Bernie personally that's pointless at this point. Loving or hating pols is stupid. He's always been part of the Dem. establishment and believes in the two party system.
I did like what the judge and the plaintiff lawyer had to say. Once again my only hope is that these fuckers have will go too far in their arrogance and the people will withdraw their consent to be governed by this lot of global thugs and war criminals, including Bernie. Why ordinary people at this point still react politically with such misplaced fear of 'the other' is beyond me.
Meanwhile the owners of the place and their puppet pols are turning up the heat on humans and the planet and we sit here and argue about a corrupt 'electoral' arm of the oligarchical duopoly and watch the internecine side show and root for our team cause the sicko clown Putin owns won. So when we get crazy clown Trump impeached and the bible trumping maniac is pres. what then? Me I want by 1,600$ back from the Obama election. Since when does bickering over internal rules of a political party's org. trump a shamelessly rigged and useless election?
Excuse my long rant here but man o man we need to drive a stake through the Democratic party's heart and bury this zombie party once and for all.
Applauds very loudly!!!
Excellent rant!
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
@Centaurea
Lol, if they're stupid enough to throw money at a rigged system, there might be a way for the 99% to get their money back.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I am appalled at the arguments of both
counsel. Just pathetic.
No codes, rules, statues, no case law cited, and this is what our democracy might just well hang on?
The Judge appears to be the only one who understands what is hanging in the balance.
I have listened to lawyers arguing over
breach of contract and made arguments myself in cases involving less than $10,000 that were more cogent.
My county is 21,000 people.
I am ashamed of this.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
With respect to your profession,
One of my favorite writers does a lot of social commentary
Mixed in among the wizards and gods there's a lot of thought given to the nature of barbarianism, civilization, human nature, and for that matter, the nature of life itself. One of his quotes is from a barbarian who is none too impressed with civilization. He says
Lawyers, those whose job it is to subvert justice.
I don't agree with that in all cases, but it's abundantly clear that our judicial system as a whole has little to do with justice.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
I feel your pain.
I have seen this lack of understanding of one's discipline with some in the sciences as well as in the legal profession. For example, I know of a judge that was dumb-founded by the antics of a lawyer just recently. Is this becoming a thing. Are there really an increasing number of professionals that don't understand the fundamentals of their disciplines. Or is a small sample size, and I hope this is the case, creating a confirmation bias on my part.
Not a fair criticism of the lawyers
The time for substantive legal arguments will arrive later on, as the lawsuit proceeds.
This was a hearing on the DNC's Motion to Dismiss, which is a procedural motion. The rules that govern this kind of motion are the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
If you read the first portion of the transcript, you'll see lengthy discussion of the rules applicable to the DNC's motion. That's what all the references to 12(b)6 and so on were about.
When the judge makes his decision on the Motion to Dismiss, the decision has to be based on the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. Not on the substantive legal merits of the case. If he denies the motion and DNC appeals, he wants his decision to stand on appeal.
It appears that the judge did use this hearing as an opportunity to "feel out" both parties as to what the case is about. But the discussion about impartiality, DNC charter, etc., does not control his decision on the Motion to Dismiss.
(To note, Jared Beck did bring up quite a bit of case law during his replies to the judge's questions.)
[Edited for clarity]
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
This is Very Helpful
While all this is far outside my area of expertise, I am picking up a lot of Law Knowledge from my favorite Assistant District Attorney. Hence, I am slowly building a foundation for understanding court procedures applicable to her experiences.
Thank you for adding this to my basic understanding.
Complex federal litigation
That old saying "The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceeding fine" could have been created for this kind of lawsuit. Hopefully, the "grinding exceedingly fine" part will apply to Judge Zloch. I get the feeling he wants this case to proceed, but he's got to make that happen in ways that will stand on appeal.
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
Atty on Lee Camp show
The Lawyer Bringing The Lawsuit Against The DNC Speaks Out
Pub May 17
And his wife - Elizabeth Lee on another interview
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLFuranOUNU width:500]
Facebook on DNC trial
DNC Fraud Lawsuit
Thanks for this article about the DNC. It sounds like the major environmental organizations who are really working for corporations, not for us.
I don't spend time on face book, but it looks like updates and other coverage.
Have you considering posting this on that Facebook page? My hunch is that there wold be a fairly large audience for the summary in this article.
Did you hear, Hillary the Wonderful, is going to lead the dems out of the swamp
Not if I have anything to do with this
How the hell are you going to get the foul taste
out of your mouth afterwards?
plover bird?
The real SparkyGump has passed. It was an honor being your human.
@Alligator Ed Going to admit you're
@Alligator Ed
Ooooo, and it's BLUE! I guess it turns red after swallowing Hillary's shit?
Edit: if that's a self-portrait, remember to spit out the part that auto-plays the Republican stuff! Might not be very filling without it, but I can't imagine you being full of shit...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
But Ellen, then I would have very little to eat
C99% has both a Facebook page and a Twitter account
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
@DonMidwest
How else would she get them to the slaughterhouse?
Edit: silly me, was somehow thinking of the voting Dems who need to be brought to be rendered down before the corporate Dems are led out to attend the feast...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I think this should be a full fifteen yard penalty on the
Democratic party and Bernie Sanders. It's clear they, and Bernie "the Sheepdog" Sanders, deceived those who donated to Bernie's presidential campaign, making them believe he/Bernie actually had a chance when the democratic party leadership, and Bernie, knew full well that was pure bullshit.
They should be made to be ashamed of themselves. Then we can do it again in 2020.
What did Bernie know about the fix and when did he know it?
From what I've read
I agree
absolutely. why shut that topic down?
O'Malley was ready to give HRC trouble & Bernie rode to the rescue.
It really seemed an odd mistake at the time.
@pro left
I got the impression that he wanted to get back on the long-neglected issues directly affecting the long-neglected American public; Bernie got the issues brought up in public because he could not be got off them, by hook or by crook. And a lot of crooks tried to hook him off them.
Bernie doesn't do 'personalities', he does issues.
Edit: it was taken as a defense of Hillary, but especially with the tone and phrasing ("Nobody cares about your damn emails" felt to me like: "Lets get on what needs to be done for suffering people before more people die!" as in life-long typical Bernie,) it seemed to me that he didn't want debate time wasted on anything that couldn't be fixed, but to get into public policy.
Remember how little media coverage he got to get the message out about what a government of, by and for the people should be doing in working for, rather than against, the public interest?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Big Al He knew how the DC
It put him in a feud with a political machine he had no intention of bringing a real fight to.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Hmm — so Bernie ran, never really expecting to win the primary,
and then that was followed by Trump running, never actually expecting to win the general?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@lotlizard Yes. In my
Think about it. 3% of the people know you, you're a "socialist" in the United States, you have no big money support and almost no political support from the insiders. You're up against Hillary Clinton who has billions of dollars and the most powerful people in Washington behind her.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
And that's why he did a fast tour prior to announcing his run. He wanted to be sure that he had a chance - and he did win, even if everyone was cheated out of it.
Now, people at least have a better idea of which two corporate parties to roundly reject... and many are more aware of the smothering wool that's been pulled over their eyes, their nose, continuing downward - and which is about to shut off their air supply.
And the Muse concert album playing just started JFK... we, as people, really don't respond well to warnings, do we?
Edited to correct the tense of a changed sentence and remove a stray extra 'is'. And again, because I keep changing part of a sentence, lol. And am still breathing chemicals from home renovations which make me sick, tired and brain-scrambled and are going on for freaking ever...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@lotlizard As for Trump, he
Then round about September, he realized he could actually beat her...
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Yes, and it was around
Christmas 2015 (or T-day, maybe) that Bernie figured out he actually Could beat Her. Much before then I think you're right, Bernie was just in it to see if he could shake things up. But, surely by Christmas he had the sense that he could win.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
I agree with Al. IMO, both Bernie and the DNC
are complicit in taking people's money when they knew that the primary was rigged. From the start of the primary, Bernie knew that there were problems with people being kicked off the voting rolls and had their party affiliation changed. There were so many complaints by those people and I don't remember Bernie saying anything about that. Nor did he say anything about the Nevada caucus where the lady who was responsible for it started 30 minutes before it was supposed to start and most of his people were still signing in.
Then there's Bill going to 4 voting places in Massachusetts and all the other issues regarding people being able to vote.
Even after her emails were released and they showed how they rigged the election, he was asked if she won it fair and square and he said yes.
Al and Snoopydawg, I surrender!
1. the suspicious and very real cut on Bernie's right cheek may have signaled some last minute recalcitrance to go along with the plan during the DNC presidential convention
2. Even if Bernie did have prior knowledge of and did not actively resist the corrupted nature of the primary, his campaign contributors were unaware of the fact. This would still allow the ongoing DNC fraud suit to continue. I would like to see what happens if the DNC lawyers say Bernie was aware of the fix before he even started campaigning.
about that cut
if bernie had been roughed up by professionals, they would have left no visible marks.
if it wasn't an accident, someone lost his temper.
if I had to place a longshot bet, I'd go with Jane. Is she a drinker?
Has Bernie ever been asked directly about the cut?
It is a legitimate question, imo.
@irishking Unless the
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Bernie was in the tank, don't you think?
so why would he get out of line?
can't believe he would get crazy & need a reminder.
@irishking And if somebody
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
could be right on that.
I just see Bernie as in sync with HRC all along, so what fight?
But maybe Jane wanted to ride it a little longer and there was a spat.
Has anyone ever asked Sanders straight out?
Enquiring minds want to know.
And If he was roughed up and sold us out, what a gutless piece of trash our hero turned out to be.
Old people have to be ready to give it up. I shake my head.
We needed a mensch and got bernie. gee whiz.
... wow ... no good ...
may I ask if you are drinker ?
no, not really, no?
Well, I thought so.
https://www.euronews.com/live
used to drink. no more, thx.
there is strong link between alcohol and violence.
maybe someone got drunk and got mad. domestic spat scenario.
if you don't know what I mean, you are lucky.
thx.
I knew what you meant, but
I really thought to get Jane Sanders mentioned in that context was a hitting beneath the belt.
Sorry, for saying so. It's not important, but that was my first reaction.
I can erase my comment in a little bit.
https://www.euronews.com/live
I see your point.
I am not a big Jane Sanders fan. I can list my reasons but not really important now.
I have wondered if some of her past dealings might be behind Sanders' missing tax returns, and perhaps provided leverage on Sanders.
But lately I think Bernie was so far in the tank that the idea he had to be brought into line is a stretch.
So I thought other than a simple accident, a domestic tiff is possible cause. and alcohol is very often a factor. So to question Jane's temper & use of alcohol is reasonable here, I think.
You may disagree. no need to take down your reply. thx.
It could just as likely been an over enthusiastic Hillaryite
waving an I'm With Her sign a bit too close possibly hoping to block Bernie's visage from view. I even thought that at the time.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
It's not just you and not just that comment
This whole little excursion into speculative fiction is somewhat ghoulish. I'm waiting for someone to connect the dots and explain how Jane killed Kennedy.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Oh FFS.
I live in Burlington. A good friend of mine lives across the street from Bernie and Jane; her daughter and their granddaughter are best friends. These are REAL people, living real lives, far outside the Hamptons' bubble. I can assure everyone here that they are decent, kindhearted, "regular" people. This kind of allegation is mean-spirited and without merit.
I'm still trying to work out what theory makes the most sense to me re: Bernie and his participation in the primary (I most closely align with CSTMS's, but admit to not being sure). Regardless, can we lay off the baseless allegations about his private life?
if a woman comes to work with a mark
on her face, people will wonder if her husband hit her.
no one made an allegation. I asked a question.
perhaps I should have been more careful-
"Have there been any reports of violence, temper, drunkenness, associated with Jane?
I described Jane as a "longshot", but to ask if a mark on the right cheek might have come from a ring on the wife's left fist is just reasonable.
Personally I don't care if she hit him, HRC hit him, he hit himself, or didn't get hit at all.
As to Jane . Please have your friend ask Jane if she ever found those tax returns she promised to release. And wish her good luck with the bank fraud case.
Now that's mean-spirited. thx.
You sure made a BFD
out of it for not caring one way or the other.
As for Bernie and what did he know and when did he know it...
I suspect he first knew the Primary was rigged when he lost Iowa.
Or at least had a suspicion something smelled fishy.
He wins Iowa he wins the Primary. If Bernie wins that Iowa caucus he wins the Primary, is our next president. That's how close the Primary was, and DWS and her DNC knew it. Hillary knew it, too - which is why she called the election for Herself before all the votes were counted. Was one of her few good moves.
Thing is, what was he going to do about it without looking like a whiner, sore loser?
Exactly. Nothing.
I believe he ran all the way to Cali, when it was obvious the race was long over, was becuz he wanted to rub it in Hillary's face with a big F.U., I will not concede, bitch.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Actually I didn't make a BFD of it.
it began with this remark by Alligator Ed.
to which I replied-
about that cut
@Alligator Ed
Everything else I have said has been in direct answer to others, just like this.
I will respond if some one takes the the time to reply,
So my answer to you is that I did not make a BFD of it.
As to the speculation- Bernie could clear that up easily. Has he never been asked? It is speculative because Bernie has never said what happened.
I am not interested in this issue, but have reponded to reasonable comments.
I have had enough of the Sanders act.
If you want to know my beef with Jane, you could start with her "Ph.D." and her shennanigans as a college president and go on to her handling of the tax returns. I watched her lie on tv about those taxes- the whole crew lied. Maybe she got mad at Bernie & gave him a swat, I don't care.
If I saw him I would be tempted to knock him out myself.
ha!
one explanation for it.
.
also a lot of money was coming in to the campaign.
you might want to check out who was getting that money. IIRC some family friends of the Sanders were getting a lot of the business. remember that Sanders tried to keep Jane & Weaver in charge of the Revolution venture & staff revolted.
again I view Sanders as part of the problem now. I wish he would stop it now.
@snoopydawg In my opinion, Henry
I don't think Bernie believed he had a chance in hell of actually challenging Hillary for the nomination.
Nobody knew who the fuck he was--only 3% of the population. He had no big money backers. He had next to no party support. He was a "socialist"--not a real one, only a social democrat, but America doesn't know the difference between a social democrat and a Leninist, so that doesn't matter. He's not exactly the most photogenic or charismatic politician this country has. He's not from a big state.
As I've said elsewhere, it was absolutely ridiculous to think that a guy like that could come anywhere near beating a machine candidate like Hillary Clinton, who had not only her own connections and their moolah backing her up, but also all the Bushes'. The Clinton/Bush machine, backed by bankers, oil barons, weaponsmakers, the CIA...against the guy I described above? It's like saying I could beat Triple H in a cage match.
Want to talk about "an improbable journey?" It wasn't Barack Obama's, it was Bernie's. And it was a journey I don't think he had any intention of being on. I bet nobody was more shocked than he was when that one speech, tweaked here and there according to location or circumstance, caused the kind of response it did, and started, by the end of March beginning of April, to make it look like he might actually beat her. That's when, if you remember, her aides started coming out in the press saying "That wasn't the deal!" in injured tones. They were upset because the only reason they let him run in the first place (and let's note the creepiness of having to get permission to run for public office) was that they were certain he could present no real threat to her.
Then suddenly there were people waiting in line for 4 or 5 hours to hear a speech they'd all already heard before on the internet--and fancy camera angles were necessary in order to make it look like Hillary had filled a bingo hall.
They didn't like that.
But frankly, I'm not sure Bernie entirely liked it either. It put him into a very serious feud with a political machine that is vicious and extremely powerful, when all he was actually trying to do, IMO, was keep certain ideas alive. The fight he was trying to bring--and this was actually smart of him--was pushback against the colonization of the human imagination. Without Bernie's campaign, we would have no way of even talking about who we are or what we want, because in a world defined by Hillary vs Trump or Macron vs LePen there is no room for who and what we are. He didn't want an entire chunk of the political spectrum to disappear altogether. I don't believe for a second that he thought he could actually challenge her for the nomination.
I understand why he thought that, but he nevertheless should have planned for the possibility, given how high the stakes were. I'm often surprised by how careless people high up in the hierarchy are, not making contingency plans even for improbable things. I sure as hell would have made contingency plans for every probability I could imagine if I were going into even an exhibition match against the Clinton/Bush machine. My anger at Bernie lies in the fact that he did not make a plan for this contingency.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
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