Open-Air Slave Markets Return to Libya

Submitted by gjohnsit on Sat, 04/15/2017 - 8:18pm

Check Hillary Clinton's web site and you will find a page defending her 2011 endorsement of regime change in Libya. During the campaign she did "not see the Libya intervention as a failure, but as a work in progress."
Obama even ordered Libya to be bombed during the 2016 Democratic Convention, to put an exclamation point on the issue.
No matter how you cut it, the situation in Libya is because of the Democratic Party establishment, and the Democratic establishment continues to defend the military intervention.

Which makes this news story so depressing.

West African migrants are being bought and sold openly in modern-day slave markets in Libya, survivors have told a UN agency helping them return home.
Trafficked people passing through Libya have previously reported violence, extortion and slave labour. But the new testimony from the International Organization for Migration suggests that the trade in human beings has become so normalised that people are being traded in public.
“The latest reports of ‘slave markets’ for migrants can be added to a long list of outrages [in Libya],” said Mohammed Abdiker, IOM’s head of operation and emergencies. “The situation is dire. The more IOM engages inside Libya, the more we learn that it is a vale of tears for all too many migrants.”

Libya has a long history of a slave trade, but I think everyone was hoping those days were over.

“Several other migrants confirmed his story, independently describing kinds of slave markets as well as kinds of private prisons all over in Libya,” Manente said. “IOM Italy has confirmed that this story is similar to many stories reported by migrants and collected at landing points in southern Italy, including the slave market reports. This gives more evidence that the stories reported are true, as the stories of those who managed to cross-match those who are returning back to their countries.”
After his sale, the Senegalese migrant was taken to a makeshift prison of a kind that has been well documented in Libya. Those held inside are forced to work without pay, or on meagre rations, and their captors regularly call family at home demanding a ransom. His captors asked for 300,000 west African francs (about £380), then sold him on to a larger jail where the demand doubled without explanation.
Men who lingered there too long without the ransom being paid were taken away and killed, he said. Some wasted away on meagre rations in unsanitary conditions, dying of hunger and disease, but overall numbers never fell. “If the number of migrants goes down, because of death or someone is ransomed, the kidnappers just go to the market and buy one,” Manente said.

Remember that we bombed Libya to prevent a genocide that wasn't happening, and to prevent human rights violations that our Libyan allies were committing.
In 2010 Libya had the highest standard of living, the lowest infant mortality and the highest life expectancy in Africa. Libyans enjoyed free health-care and free education.

Tags:

libya

slavery

Vote

Comments

Submitted by mimi on Sat, 04/15/2017 - 8:46pm

twittered - thank you for reporting this /nt

—

https://www.euronews.com/live

Submitted by MrWebster on Sat, 04/15/2017 - 9:38pm

Kaddafi protected black immigrants from subsharan Africa

Kaddafi saw himself as thee leader of the African continent and as a result protected basically black African migrant workers. Once he was killed, hell was unleashed on the black Africans. The horrors she let loose on the Libyan people should have renamed her the Marchioness de Sade.

Submitted by dervish on Sat, 04/15/2017 - 9:45pm

I'd like to say that I'm shocked

but unfortunately this was predictable, and typical of her Heinous.

—

"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."

Submitted by on the cusp on Sat, 04/15/2017 - 10:28pm

This just kills my soul.

@dervish

—

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 9:17am

@dervish Vote for Hillary, because

@dervish Vote for Hillary, because Donald Trump is racist, and you'll have the blood of Black people on your hands if you don't vote for her and he wins.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by HenryAWallace on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 10:09am

She's up to her clavicle in blood. Soon, he'll catch up.

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

I'm furious that they were our only choices.

Thanks, DNC.

Submitted by MarilynW on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 12:07am

The faces of those migrants

not in charge of their own destiny, awaiting someone else's decision on how best to exploit them. Awful.

—

To thine own self be true.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 9:18am

@MarilynW (North American) Black

@MarilynW (North American) Black Lives Matter.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by HenryAWallace on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 10:37am

Hillary retorted "All lives matter." So did O'Malley.

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

Bernie did not.

Riddle me this: when did Hillary behave as though all lives mattered?

Campaigned for McCarthy because he was anti-war, my ass. Left the Republican convention because she heard racist comments, my ass. (No matter how many times I read otherwise, I will never believe she turned Democrat before she met Bill. Never. Then again, I don't believe a lot of the stories that she tells that no one can check.)

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 10:47am

@HenryAWallace Thanks for

@HenryAWallace Thanks for remembering that. Bernie was the only one who came correct, and in return he was subjected to the Rovian #BernieSoBlack.

It was weeks before Hillary was subjected to anything like the same criticism, and as I recall, it only started because that one brave teenager got into Hillary's fundraiser. Filled with rich white people who actually hissed at her as she was escorted out by security.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Sima on Tue, 04/18/2017 - 8:49pm

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal I'd forgotten about

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal I'd forgotten about this. This alone explains Hillary's loss, and why 'they' wouldn't go out and vote for her.

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by gjohnsit on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 12:50pm

That's something I just couldn't get over

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
Having police in uniforms shooting down blacks in this country is awful.

But why don't those same people care about our uniformed military shooting down blacks outside of this country? Isn't that prejudice based on the color of a passport, rather than of skin?
MLK and Muhammed Ali could see the direct connection between those two things.

I always wanted to find a machine gun that was used to kill some black civilians overseas, and then was gifted to a domestic police force and used to kill a black here in the States. That way the SJW would no longer be able to deny the connection.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 3:07pm

@gjohnsit Yep. Fuck those

@gjohnsit Yep. Fuck those Haitians.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 2:00am

Do you think that any person who was responsible for the

destruction of Libya even cares about what is happening to those poor people? Is Barack lying awake at night and having any remorse for what he did to the people who died, became refugees or are now experiencing this?
Yeah, dumb question.
As for Hillary removing any blame for herself, look at who she is blaming.

March 10, 2011 – Libyan Rebels CNN: The head of the interim government in eastern Libya pleaded Wednesday for the international community to move quickly to impose a no-fly zone over Libya, declaring that any delay would result in more casualties. ‘It has to be immediate action,’ Mustafa Abdul-Jalil told CNN in an exclusive interview in this eastern opposition stronghold. ‘The longer the situation carries on, the more blood is shed. That’s the message that we want to send to the international community. They have to live up to their responsibility with regards to this.’”

For Dawg's sake, she thinks that the Libyan rebels should have a say in ordering regime change?
Then of course there are the usual warmongers who always are on board with more deaths and destruction.
McCain, Lieberman and of course Lindsay McCain-Graham

There's this from the Obama link.

Washington and its allies relied upon Islamist Al Qaeda-linked militias that were subsequently funnelled, along with massive stockpiles of Libyan arms, into Syria to carry out an even bloodier, and ongoing, regime-change operation in that country

I wonder how the troops who fought against AQ during the Iraq war feel about the fact that our government is arming and funding the same group of terrorists that they saw injure and kill their fellow soldiers?

When I watched this during the democratic convention, I was appalled by the number of people who chanted this after they were told about the continuation of the Libyan war.

The bombs dropped on Libya make clear the significance of the convention’s non-stop glorification of the military and the fascistic chants of “USA, USA” used to drown out even the muted and scattered expressions of opposition to war.

With everything that is happening regarding the Russian propaganda, the ships on their way to N. Korea, the building up of NATO troops in countries that surround Russia, I think that this is a very real possibility.

The world situation is on a hair trigger. Outside of the intervention of the working class, a third world war is not only a threat, but an inevitability.

Submitted by HenryAWallace on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 10:25am

I've posted a few times: I don't know how they sleep.

@snoopydawg

destruction of Libya even cares about what is happening to those poor people? Is Barack lying awake at night and having any remorse for what he did to the people who died, became refugees or are now experiencing this?
Yeah, dumb question.
As for Hillary removing any blame for herself, look at who she is blaming.

March 10, 2011 – Libyan Rebels CNN: The head of the interim government in eastern Libya pleaded Wednesday for the international community to move quickly to impose a no-fly zone over Libya, declaring that any delay would result in more casualties. ‘It has to be immediate action,’ Mustafa Abdul-Jalil told CNN in an exclusive interview in this eastern opposition stronghold. ‘The longer the situation carries on, the more blood is shed. That’s the message that we want to send to the international community. They have to live up to their responsibility with regards to this.’”

For Dawg's sake, she thinks that the Libyan rebels should have a say in ordering regime change?
Then of course there are the usual warmongers who always are on board with more deaths and destruction.
McCain, Lieberman and of course Lindsay McCain-Graham

There's this from the Obama link.

Washington and its allies relied upon Islamist Al Qaeda-linked militias that were subsequently funnelled, along with massive stockpiles of Libyan arms, into Syria to carry out an even bloodier, and ongoing, regime-change operation in that country

I wonder how the troops who fought against AQ during the Iraq war feel about the fact that our government is arming and funding the same group of terrorists that they saw injure and kill their fellow soldiers?

When I watched this during the democratic convention, I was appalled by the number of people who chanted this after they were told about the continuation of the Libyan war.

The bombs dropped on Libya make clear the significance of the convention’s non-stop glorification of the military and the fascistic chants of “USA, USA” used to drown out even the muted and scattered expressions of opposition to war.

With everything that is happening regarding the Russian propaganda, the ships on their way to N. Korea, the building up of NATO troops in countries that surround Russia, I think that this is a very real possibility.

The world situation is on a hair trigger. Outside of the intervention of the working class, a third world war is not only a threat, but an inevitability.

Submitted by native on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 11:13am

American liberals seem to be preoccupied

@snoopydawg
with a burning desire to see Trump's tax returns -- the immanence of WW3 being a matter of less immediate concern.

destruction of Libya even cares about what is happening to those poor people? Is Barack lying awake at night and having any remorse for what he did to the people who died, became refugees or are now experiencing this?
Yeah, dumb question.
As for Hillary removing any blame for herself, look at who she is blaming.

March 10, 2011 – Libyan Rebels CNN: The head of the interim government in eastern Libya pleaded Wednesday for the international community to move quickly to impose a no-fly zone over Libya, declaring that any delay would result in more casualties. ‘It has to be immediate action,’ Mustafa Abdul-Jalil told CNN in an exclusive interview in this eastern opposition stronghold. ‘The longer the situation carries on, the more blood is shed. That’s the message that we want to send to the international community. They have to live up to their responsibility with regards to this.’”

For Dawg's sake, she thinks that the Libyan rebels should have a say in ordering regime change?
Then of course there are the usual warmongers who always are on board with more deaths and destruction.
McCain, Lieberman and of course Lindsay McCain-Graham

There's this from the Obama link.

Washington and its allies relied upon Islamist Al Qaeda-linked militias that were subsequently funnelled, along with massive stockpiles of Libyan arms, into Syria to carry out an even bloodier, and ongoing, regime-change operation in that country

I wonder how the troops who fought against AQ during the Iraq war feel about the fact that our government is arming and funding the same group of terrorists that they saw injure and kill their fellow soldiers?

When I watched this during the democratic convention, I was appalled by the number of people who chanted this after they were told about the continuation of the Libyan war.

The bombs dropped on Libya make clear the significance of the convention’s non-stop glorification of the military and the fascistic chants of “USA, USA” used to drown out even the muted and scattered expressions of opposition to war.

With everything that is happening regarding the Russian propaganda, the ships on their way to N. Korea, the building up of NATO troops in countries that surround Russia, I think that this is a very real possibility.

The world situation is on a hair trigger. Outside of the intervention of the working class, a third world war is not only a threat, but an inevitability.

—

native

Submitted by gulfgal98 on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 6:30pm

Yes, I said it on Twitter

@native @native Here.

Where is the Peace movement? https://t.co/H4HSn0iVFm

— Nancy D (@gulfgal98) April 16, 2017

And here.

I find it amazing how people can get out to protest Trump's taxes, but when it comes to these wars, crickets.

— Nancy D (@gulfgal98) April 15, 2017

—

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Submitted by Amanda Matthews on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 2:04am

The people we've harmed will hate us for

generations.

I really dispair for those who have to pay the price for all this. Our children and grandchildren are going to have to pay for these sins.

I use the word sin because if sin truly exists, it is epitomized by the depraved way we have treated, or helped others treat, the weakest among us.

—

I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 9:49am

@Amanda Matthews Protection money.

@Amanda Matthews @Amanda Matthews Protection money.

As far as I can see, the only connection "we" have to this enterprise is that we pay our taxes. And as far as I can see, the only reason any of us pays our taxes, at this point, is that we are afraid of the consequences if we don't.

It's funny, nobody says the people in Capone's Chicago who got shaken down every so often by his thugs are responsible for the murders Capone committed. And why not? I mean, after all, they could fight back. Doesn't the fact that they didn't fight back make them as responsible as Capone for all the murders he committed? After all, it was their money fueling his enterprise.

They should have read Thoreau's Civil Disobedience. It says quite clearly in there that all they have to fear if they refuse to pay is a night in a clean, quiet room, with your meals served to you by a genial jailer. It's not like America's jails are frightening, or horrible, or that people in those jails live under conditions almost indistinguishable from slavery.

Thoreau does understand that people will be bankrupted by the State and reduced to poverty if they don't pay. His solution? Don't have much money or many possessions in the first place. Of course, that only works if you have good health and no children.

Silly working class, thinking they can have a family and a home. They should have been unencumbered revolutionaries instead. That way they can tell the gun thugs to fuck off, and when revenge for their disobedience comes down upon them, they can have no regrets. That way, they can remain ethically pure and not be just as guilty of the depredations of the gun thug and his mob boss as the thug and boss themselves.

This is the choice for American citizens, at least the ones who aren't billionaires. Every time we say "we" and "our sins," we should be clear about what the situation actually is.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by HenryAWallace on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 10:42am

Actually, a very widespread tax strike is one of the few

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

things I think might move anyone in Washington DC to pay attention to someone other than billionaires. However, I bet the first thing they would do is make an example of some celebrity who was participating in the strike, as they did with Martha Stewart and insider trading.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 10:54am

@HenryAWallace I actually agree. But

@HenryAWallace I actually agree. But given what the response is when we protest in ways that have no actual impact on what the establishment does, such as Occupy and Standing Rock, what do you imagine the response will be if we took money away from them?

I'm not saying don't do it, but I am saying we should all stop talking like this is a Republic and we have rights and it's only because we're insulated, safe, uncaring in our little American bubble that we allow this stuff to go on.

We should at least be honest about what NOT allowing this stuff to go on would look like. What the consequences would be. We all know it; it's the reason we haven't had a revolution here already. It's the reason people want so badly to make it all about Donald Trump the individual. That way, we have allies, many of them in power. That way, removing one man will fix it all. It'll be just like it was from 2002-2007, when we were all opposing Bush.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by HenryAWallace on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 3:31pm

Not at all the same as either Standing Rock or OWS.

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

Also, it helps to note the actual wording of my post: My post said a "very widespread" tax strike for a reason, emphasis on "very" and emphasis on "widespread" implied.

Neither Standing Rock nor Occupy involved a million or two people. Also, no one had to figure out what was happening; who was not paying to protest and who was simply not paying, having nothing to do with a protest; where all the protesting people were (people move); thunt them down one by one; and figure out where to imprison all of them, try them, etc. Both with Standing Rock and OWS, their bodies were outdoors in plain sight, in small, manageable groups, obviously protesting.

I'm not saying don't do it, but I am saying we should all stop talking like this is a Republic and we have rights and it's only because we're insulated, safe, uncaring in our little American bubble that we allow this stuff to go on.

We should at least be honest about what NOT allowing this stuff to go on would look like. What the consequences would be. We all know it; it's the reason we haven't had a revolution here already.

Who the eff is talking like that? Surely, you've read enough of my posts to know otherwise on all counts. In the post to which you are replying, I said only that a very widespread tax strike is one of the few things I've ever thought of that might get the government to pay attention. It wasn't even about war in particular. It was a general statement.

You've even replied to at least one of my posts in which I said that I can't think of anything that would effect significant change other than armed revolution; and I doubt we could pull that off, given how much we're monitored, including with video on the streets. Your reply then was that person to person communication was best, as if armed revolution were indeed conceivable, if we were careful enough. (I believe I replied to you, but don't recall what I said.)

Please don't imply I'm dishonest, either.

It's the reason people want so badly to make it all about Donald Trump the individual. That way, we have allies, many of them in power. That way, removing one man will fix it all. It'll be just like it was from 2002-2007, when we were all opposing Bush.

I've seen you post before about why other people are saying this or that or doing this or that. I don't know that much about the motives of other people. However, I do know very well that I've never made a single thing all about Trump or suggested that removing one man fixes everything. To the contrary, I have posted again and again, in three or four essays, and many replies that impeaching him, or even serial impeachment, isn't going to change anything but get us Pastor Pence, then Ryan, then Hatch, then Tillerson.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 3:12pm

@HenryAWallace Not you. This

@HenryAWallace Not you. This thread started with a disagreement between Amanda and I. That's what I was responding to.

In retrospect, my point actually doesn't matter a damn--who cares whether we believe that Americans are all guilty sinful motherfuckers or not?

Just to clear things up, if that's possible, I don't disagree with your idea of a tax revolt, and I never meant to imply that you were dishonest.

#6.1.1.1 Also, it helps to note the actual wording of my post: My post said a "very widespread" tax strike for a reason, emphasis on "very" and emphasis on "widespread" implied. Neither Standing Rock nor Occupy involved a million or two people. Also, no one had to figure out what was happening; who was not paying to protest and who was simply not paying, having nothing to do with a protest; where all the protesting people were (people move); thunt them down one by one; and figure out where to imprison all of them, try them, etc. Both with Standing Rock and OWS, their bodies were outdoors in plain sight, in small, manageable groups, obviously protesting. I'm not saying don't do it, but I am saying we should all stop talking like this is a Republic and we have rights and it's only because we're insulated, safe, uncaring in our little American bubble that we allow this stuff to go on. We should at least be honest about what NOT allowing this stuff to go on would look like. What the consequences would be. We all know it; it's the reason we haven't had a revolution here already. Who the eff is talking like that? Surely, you've read enough of my posts to know otherwise on all counts. In the post to which you are replying, I said only that a very widespread tax strike is one of the few things I've ever thought of that might get the government to pay attention. It wasn't even about war in particular. It was a general statement. You've even replied to at least one of my posts in which I said that I can't think of anything that would effect significant change other than armed revolution; and I doubt we could pull that off, given how much we're monitored, including with video on the streets. Your reply then was that person to person communication was best, as if armed revolution were indeed conceivable, if we were careful enough. (I believe I replied to you, but don't recall what I said.) Please don't imply I'm dishonest, either. It's the reason people want so badly to make it all about Donald Trump the individual. That way, we have allies, many of them in power. That way, removing one man will fix it all. It'll be just like it was from 2002-2007, when we were all opposing Bush. I've seen you post before about why other people are saying this or that or doing this or that. I don't know that much about the motives of other people. However, I do know very well that I've never made a single thing all about Trump or suggested that removing one man fixes everything. To the contrary, I have posted again and again, in three or four essays, and many replies that impeaching him, or even serial impeachment, isn't going to change anything but get us Pastor Pence, then Ryan, then Hatch, then Tillerson.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by HenryAWallace on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 3:53pm

Thank you. Accepted gratefully

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

FYI. When someone replies to my post, I assume they are replying to my post and not to the essay. However, I understand how the essay that starts a thread creates a mindset that carries through. I am also reacting because I posted for years on a board I finally left.

There, I took sh*t for literally years because of anything and everything that any Sanders supporter or Warren supporter or left of center poster ever posted on that board. (That board had many posters, though not as many as KOS, so there were lots of bad posting behaviors to impute to me.)

When I'd post that I'd never posted anything like that, they'd say something like, "Not necessarily you, but other Sanders'/Warren/liberal supporters post such things." As if it was okay to say "You did so and so" just because someone else in the universe did so and so!

We all have our shell shock stories from other political boards; and that's one of mine.

Submitted by gulfgal98 on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 7:04pm

For years

@HenryAWallace one of my fellow Peace vigil activists said that a widespread tax revolt would be the only way to stop these insane wars. It was interesting coming from a retired medical doctor who was quite comfortable, but I believe he was right. The problem is getting enough people to actually have the courage to go through with it.

#6.1.1.1 Also, it helps to note the actual wording of my post: My post said a "very widespread" tax strike for a reason, emphasis on "very" and emphasis on "widespread" implied. Neither Standing Rock nor Occupy involved a million or two people. Also, no one had to figure out what was happening; who was not paying to protest and who was simply not paying, having nothing to do with a protest; where all the protesting people were (people move); thunt them down one by one; and figure out where to imprison all of them, try them, etc. Both with Standing Rock and OWS, their bodies were outdoors in plain sight, in small, manageable groups, obviously protesting. I'm not saying don't do it, but I am saying we should all stop talking like this is a Republic and we have rights and it's only because we're insulated, safe, uncaring in our little American bubble that we allow this stuff to go on. We should at least be honest about what NOT allowing this stuff to go on would look like. What the consequences would be. We all know it; it's the reason we haven't had a revolution here already. Who the eff is talking like that? Surely, you've read enough of my posts to know otherwise on all counts. In the post to which you are replying, I said only that a very widespread tax strike is one of the few things I've ever thought of that might get the government to pay attention. It wasn't even about war in particular. It was a general statement. You've even replied to at least one of my posts in which I said that I can't think of anything that would effect significant change other than armed revolution; and I doubt we could pull that off, given how much we're monitored, including with video on the streets. Your reply then was that person to person communication was best, as if armed revolution were indeed conceivable, if we were careful enough. (I believe I replied to you, but don't recall what I said.) Please don't imply I'm dishonest, either. It's the reason people want so badly to make it all about Donald Trump the individual. That way, we have allies, many of them in power. That way, removing one man will fix it all. It'll be just like it was from 2002-2007, when we were all opposing Bush. I've seen you post before about why other people are saying this or that or doing this or that. I don't know that much about the motives of other people. However, I do know very well that I've never made a single thing all about Trump or suggested that removing one man fixes everything. To the contrary, I have posted again and again, in three or four essays, and many replies that impeaching him, or even serial impeachment, isn't going to change anything but get us Pastor Pence, then Ryan, then Hatch, then Tillerson.

—

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Submitted by native on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 11:52am

In Thoreau's day,

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

America didn't have any SWAT teams or industrialized prisons to keep people in line. I suppose penalties for bucking the system might have been less intimidating then, than they are today. Or maybe it's just that Americans have become accustomed to always saying, "Yes Sir!"

—

native

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 12:42pm

@native Yeah, that's kinda my

@native Yeah, that's kinda my point. Although my guess is that back then, if you were poor, not an English speaker, Black or indigenous, you'd probably find something other than Thoreau's comfy jail cell too.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Amanda Matthews on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 12:15pm

Actually the majority of us, including YOU and ME

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal @Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
are doing no more than sitting on our asses allowing this to happen. So yes, it is 'we'. It has been 'we' since 2008 when we elected and allowed by quiet acquiescence the Dems to become the party of war and slaughter.

Posting on a website doesn't relieve any of us of our responsibility to speak up loudly and openly, and in the streets, voting booth, and every other way we can put a halt to this shit. How vocal were 'we' when the Dems were killing people (beside bitching and whining on the internet?) Obama should be in The Hague with Bush** (the Dems new BFF) and Clinton and Trump. We elected him . Twice. So again, it is 'we'.
And
Yeah there are always repercussions. There's ALWAYS a price to pay for everything you want, good or bad.

aedit: fixed some mistakes

—

I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Submitted by gulfgal98 on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 7:18pm

There are sins

@Amanda Matthews of omission and commission. While our leadership is engaged in the sins of commission, the majority of Americans are engaged in the sins of omission. While it is easy for those of us here who have the benefit of a broader base of knowledge of the issues, I cannot fault those who are still trying to tread water and struggling to support themselves and their families.

We are a heavily propagandized population too. It takes time and a lot of effort to cut through the crap to even begin to see what is really going on. Right now, the oligarchy is treading along a fine line, but at some point, that line will be crossed and the people will rise up. The problem I see is that when it happens, it may be too late.

—

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Submitted by Ellen North on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 8:40pm

@Amanda Matthews

@Amanda Matthews

I seriously don't think there will be generations left, unless The Psychopaths That Be are promptly eliminated from all positions of power and influence...

—

Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 2:32am

Why doesn't anyone ask how the hell this makes sense?

A Pentagon spokesman, asked about the legality of the bombings, cited the 2001 Authorisation for Use of Military Force, which sanctioned military action against those who planned and executed the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks and those who supported them. Fifteen years later, the argument that this applies to anyone killed by US bombs in Libya is absurd on its face.

Gaddafi had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks nor did he support the persons who were responsible. We now know from the 28 pages left out of the 9/11 report that the Saudis were helped finance and support the people responsible for the attacks, yet nothing has been done about it. We also know that members of the Bin Laden family were in New York or DC when they happened and
Bandar bin Sultan Al Saud Met with Bush and Cheney the day after. (I have a photo of this and will find it)
How then did the AUMF give Obama permission to overthrow Gaddafi? Absurd on its face indeed!

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 9:52am

The AUMF (both of 'em)

@snoopydawg are a blanket excuse for killing people anywhere in the Middle East.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by HenryAWallace on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 12:14pm

Several members of Congress attempted a lawsuit,

@snoopydawg

including Kucinich. More about that in this essay: https://caucus99percent.com/content/did-obama-draw-red-line-syrian-sand-...

Submitted by native on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 12:31pm

Yes it is absolutely ridiculous.

@snoopydawg

And so is the idea that Bashar Assad somehow supports terrorism. The nations and groups who are now our allies in Syria however, do support terrorism. The Pentagon in its infinite wisdom, is currently waging war upon the very people who are fighting against Al Qaeda. Current policy is a direct reversal of the AUMF's stated intent.

—

native

Submitted by Pluto's Republic on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 7:02pm

You must consider PNAC's prior strategic commitments

@snoopydawg

…when considering the true intent of AUMF and which nations fall into that killing field. Certainly, any nation with even a small Shiite population is a target and can be referred to as a "terrorist" nation. The US fights on the side of the Sunnis.

Submitted by Raggedy Ann on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 6:43am

Always keep in mind,

the war above the ground is for the commodity underneath the ground. All other explanations are distractions from the real explanation.

—

"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 9:15am

It's not evil.

It's just business. You purists just don't understand the world we live in. Change is incremental. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by HenryAWallace on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 12:26pm

I also remember that, on more than one occasion, he

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal @Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

politely stood aside and yielded the floor during a scheduled speech he was making. Yet, Hillary was confronted briefly and in private. Also, the first time he was interrupted was during a speech for candidates at a netroots event.

Although that had been scheduled a year in advance for whomever was running, Hillary claimed a conflicting engagement. Turned out her engagement was speaking at a fundraiser for--wait for it--Arkansas Democrats. As Bubba might say, give me a break. First, it was highly unlikely that was scheduled over a year in advance. Second, if it was scheduled over a year in advance, Hillary could have gotten them to change it if she gave them a year's notice. Similarly, whenever they called Hillary with the invite, they would have, if she asked, have made it a week earlier or later. No one calls Hillary Clinton to speak during campaign season without ample notice--not if they actually want her there.

What I suspect? She wanted an excuse to avoid netroots during a primary, which is known to skew liberal and not be as staged as Her Heinous would like. So she asked someone among ve Arkansas Democrats she knew she could trust to schedule a fundraiser for that date.

Anyway, the whole thing stank from the off.

Submitted by Song of the lark on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 10:45am

And I thought Climate Change was bad.

Who would have thought Slavery would be a knock on effect of climate change, or the utter destruction of a country (Syria). Kidding aside ...we are just at the beginning of this Horrendus era. Over population, food scarcity, mass migration brought on by resource depletion and other biophysical problems. I know Hillary makes a good punching bag but she and others are only a small part of this problem. Track the price of wheat, the burgeoning population and the rise of Arab Spring in Egypt as an example of Nafeez Ahmed's thesis.
Failing States, Collapsing Systems: BioPhysical Triggers of Political Violence by Nafeez Ahmed.

Submitted by CB on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 10:46am

The Libyan regime change operation of 2011 was not something

new. The Arab Spring was just a different "trigger" to put into affect a replay of a covert operation that had failed in 1995. It used the very same Al Qaeda connected players on the ground. Once the instigators got the ball rolling, the UK, France and US used this as a pretext, with considerable assistance from Hillary Clinton, as an excuse to militarily intervene.

“Spies, Lies and Whistleblowers” – the Gaddafi Plot chapters
Excerpts from the book…..
by Annie Machon
...
In December 1995, James Worthing, R/ME/C at MI6, circulated CX95/ 534526 report to Whitehall and other addressees, warning of a potential coup in Libya. It confirmed that a member of the rebel group gave detailed intelligence to his MI6 handler in anticipation of help from Britain. The report clearly demonstrated that Watson knew that Tunworth was planning terrorism and his group had already been involved in attempts on Gaddafi’s life:

“In late November 1995 [Tunworth’s identity removed]7 described plans, in which he was involved, to overthrow Colonel Gaddafi. […] The coup is scheduled to start at around the time of the next General People’s Congress on February 14, 1996. Coup will start with unrest in Tripoli, Misratah and Benghazi.” […]
“The coup plotters were responsible for the death of [blank -Names removed to protect security-————————blank] was about to take up the position as head of Military Intelligence when he was forced off the Tripoli-Sirte road and was killed. The 2 coup plotters involved escaped unhurt. In August 1995, 3 army captains who were part of the coup plot attempted to kill Colonel Gaddafi.”

The report then listed Libyan installations that would be attacked and described supporters in Libya’s principal cities and their occupations. The start of the coup was to be signalled through coded messages on television and radio. It also said that at least 250 British-made weapons were distributed among the plotters.

Tunworth also told his MI6 handler that:

“plotters would have cars similar to those in Gaddafi’s security entourage with fake security number plates. They would infiltrate themselves into the entourage in order to kill or arrest Gaddafi…

“One group of military personnel were being trained in the desert area near Kufra for the role of attacking Gaddafi and his entourage. The aim was to attack Gaddafi after the GPC [General People’s Congress], but before he had returned to Sirte. One officer and 20 men were being trained for this attack.”

David also remembers another MI6 CX report being issued about the plot in early 1996. It was a shopping list of the group’s requirements to carry out the coup, including the supply of weapons and basics like jeeps and tents.
...

Submitted by detroitmechworks on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 11:21am

Slavery never went away...

Certain people just felt it was more important to persecute individual people for what their ancestors did than actually address the fact that it makes lots of money for corporations across the world. As it always has.

Lots of ink spilled about how American Slavery was the worst ever in the world, and how we can never wash away the stain of our horrible past, while completely ignoring what those who practice Islam continue to do.

Because of course, if you're going to berate people, it's nice to pick those who won't immediately declare a fatwah against you for doing so.

—

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Submitted by TheOtherMaven on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 11:49am

Fact is, US chattel slavery was a new low

@detroitmechworks
in human trafficking. Previous civilizations had rules, or at least guidelines, about how slaves should be treated. And all of them had ways out of the slavery trap, if not for the slave, then for their children.

The Colonial South threw out the rulebook and enforced perpetual, brutal slavery on all imported African forced labor and all their descendants. There were only two means of escape, neither one codified in law (and one frankly illegal): run away and don't get caught, or get very lucky and have a humane master/get bought by Quakers who would manumit you and make you a permanent second-class citizen (which was an improvement over being a beast of burden, if not always by much).

—

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Submitted by detroitmechworks on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 12:32pm

And it continues to this day.

@TheOtherMaven We may have set the low water mark, but the practices continue to this day.

And IMHO, we do feel the appropriate shock and horror at what was done. However, the reason that we feel that horror is that we acknowledge the hideous evil that was done.

On the other hand, we aren't allowed to discuss the fact that our "allies" in the middle east are damn dirty slavers who keep people as sex slaves, laborers, and shields that will be conveniently reclassified as "Enemy Combatants" as soon as we drop a bomb on them.

Of course, their slavery is all good because it grants the infidels "Spiritual enfranchisement" and Islam treats slaves "nobly" in that they don't have to be prostitutes to survive, since they'd have NO status if they weren't slaves. So really, they're doing those dirty infidels a FAVOR and bringing them god and civilization!

It's the exact same time of doublethink lies and bullshit that the slave owners in our country used, except OUR hypocritical psychopaths used the bible instead of the Koran.

—

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Submitted by Amanda Matthews on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 1:00pm

WTF??

@TheOtherMaven @TheOtherMaven

Previous civilizations had rules, or at least guidelines, about how slaves should be treated. And all of them had ways out of the slavery trap, if not for the slave, then for their children.

Slavery has NEVER been as you described. Not for the majority of the poor souls caught up and trapped in slavery. It was cruel, it could enslave for generations, and slaves were ALWAYS considered to being subhumans good only for brute labor or sex with basically no rights whatsoever. The slave block was not an employment agency.

http://historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistoriesResponsive.asp?history...

EDIT: skavery/slavery

—

I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Submitted by gjohnsit on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 12:41pm

That's not actually true

@TheOtherMaven
In Haiti for instance, in the century before the revolution, the slaves were kept in such horrible conditions that the average lifespan of a slave was 3 to 5 years.
IOW, 12 years a slave would be a success story.

This example wasn't an outlier, even for white slaves.
Consider the condition of serfs in ancient Sparta, which according to Critias, they were "slaves to the utmost".
This is how the Spartans kept their white slaves in line.

Every autumn, according to Plutarch (Life of Lycurgus, 28, 3–7), the Spartan ephors would pro forma declare war on the helot population so that any Spartan citizen could kill a helot without fear of punishment. At night, the chosen kryptes (members of the Krypteia) were sent out into the Laconian countryside armed with knives with the instructions to kill any helot they encountered and to take any food they needed. They were specifically told to kill the strongest and best of the helots. This practice was instigated to prevent the threat of a rebellion by the helots and to keep their population in check.
According to Cartledge, Krypteia members stalked the helot villages and surrounding countryside, spying on the servile population. Their mission was to prevent and suppress unrest and rebellion. Troublesome helots could be summarily executed. Such brutal repression of the helots permitted the Spartan elite to successfully control the servile agrarian population and devote themselves to military practice. It may also have contributed to the Spartans' reputation for stealth since a kryptes who got caught was punished by whipping.

Only Spartans who had served in the Krypteia as young men could expect to achieve the highest ranks in Spartan society and army. It was felt that only those Spartans who showed the willingness and ability to kill for the state at a young age were worthy to join the leadership in later years.

Submitted by detroitmechworks on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 12:50pm

However, every civilization that used slaves...

@gjohnsit Will happily tell you how slaves were brought dignity.

The number of twists and turns the logic follows in order to justify the keeping of people in bondage is frankly sick.

I mean, what would you consider a person who is not allowed to vote, is always treated as a second class citizen, and can be killed by another class of people with no legal repercussions? Especially if they are always monitored and reminded that their freedoms are merely privileges that can be taken at ANY time?

I certainly wouldn't call that freedom. And yet, if you are convicted of the right crime in this country... Even after you've paid your "Debt to Society"...

—

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Submitted by TheOtherMaven on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 1:50pm

I never said slavery was a good thing,

@detroitmechworks
but on the sliding scale of "slaver nations", we were (and perhaps still are) near the bottom. (The Spartans were arguably lower, but Sparta is hardly a shining example of society in most respects.)

It depended, I suppose, on whether slaves were considered "valuable property with the potential for becoming contributing citizens" (which seems to have been the Athenian-Roman attitude) or "brute beasts with no value except that which can be whipped out of them" (Caribbean sugar plantations and by extension the Colonial South) or "wild beasts to be hunted and killed at will" (Sparta).

And any society with an abolitionist movement was at least beginning to get an idea that slavery was not civilized.

—

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Submitted by detroitmechworks on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 1:58pm

Apologies, I was a little salty there.

@TheOtherMaven I know we totally agree on the main point, which is that slavery is a horrid plague on humanity. It's truly a sad thing that religions look for reasons to excuse it.

—

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Submitted by Amanda Matthews on Sun, 04/16/2017 - 2:36pm

No you weren't. There is no way to minimize

@detroitmechworks
the evils of slavery no matter how hard some people try.

—

I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa