Classism: The last socially acceptable prejudice in America

All types of discrimination in America are frowned on by either liberals or conservatives.
Racism, sexism and other types of discrimination still exist, but not without vocal resistance from broad swaths of society.

Except for one. Classism.
You can still discriminate against people for being too poor and few will complain.

For instance, in uber-liberal San Francisco you can still find this.

“I know people are frustrated about gentrification happening in the city, but the reality is, we live in a free market society,” Keller wrote, saying that he arrived in San Francisco only three years ago. “The wealthy working people have earned their right to live in the city. They went out, got an education, work hard, and earned it. I shouldn’t have to worry about being accosted. I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, and despair of homeless people to and from my way to work every day.

Poor guy. As someone who has lived in San Francisco since 1992, I can tell you for a fact that I think people like Keller are doing more harm to San Francisco than the homeless.
Keller was rightly roasted for his letter, but it's just a letter. It's not important. What is important is what happened a month before.

“They’re herding us like cattle,” he said.
Within weeks, McKinney’s “neighborhood” has grown from a couple of dozen sporadic encampments to San Francisco’s most visible tent city. At least 100 tents stretch over a dozen blocks, side streets and alleys. Many tents, even the popup pup tents, house two people and at least one dog. Even jaded San Franciscans are stunned by the sight.
Like the Super Bowl 50 signs, skewered on social media as “cheesy,” “vulgar” and “unnecessary,” the new homeless encampments keep reminding San Franciscans that the upcoming parties for the largest sporting event in the nation are not for everyone.

In a back-handed way, Keller is right: we do live in a free market society, and your worth as a human being depends entirely on your financial wealth.
Cities across America are making laws that punish the homeless in ways that they wouldn't do to stray animals.

Vice News obtained NCH's third and latest report, which is set to be published later this month. The outlet reports that, incredibly, at least 33 municipal bans on publicly handing out free food have been enacted across the U.S. between January 2013 and April 2014, reflecting a sharp increase in communities with such restrictions.
That troubling number is likely less surprising to anyone whose been following the issue of food sharing at a national level. Many cities have been actively stepping up their fights -- not against homelessness, but against homeless people.

It's amazing to think that cities will tolerate people feeding homeless dogs and cats, but not homeless people.
Liberals give frowny faces over this kind of law, but there is little mention about an equally important statute - the criminalization of sleeping.

Laws against camping, lying down and begging in public places can quickly get expensive for those who live outside, and the criminal justice system awaits those who cannot pay.
But what about taxpayers? What does it cost to enforce laws that target the homeless?
A lot, according to a new study released by the University of Denver’s Sturm College of Law Tuesday. The report, “Too High a Price: What Criminalizing Homelessness Costs Colorado,” found that six cities spent a combined $5.1 million on enforcement from 2010-2014. Denver spent more than $750,000 in 2014 alone.
To complete the study, the college’s Homeless Advocacy Policy Project added up the policing, court and jail time costs associated with laws that target homeless populations, like curfews and camping bans. A total of 351 such laws exist across the state’s 76 largest cities. Denver spends an average of $645 on each citation it issues.

Of course criminalizing homelessness is about as effective as criminalizing pot. Plus, giving a homeless person a criminal record for the crime of sleeping is a sure fire way to make certain that they can't stop being homeless.

Having a criminal record makes it harder for individuals without homes to access education, employment and, rather cruelly, housing. Jail time also often means missed appointments for public benefits like Social Security and Medicaid.
“Criminalizing homelessness anchors un-housed individuals in perpetual poverty,” the study says.

To the Obama Administration's credit, there is finally a little push-back on the federal level against the trend of criminalizing homelessness, and even the courts are getting involved.
But these aren't actual solutions. Real solutions require much bigger changes.
For example, anyone who lives in the San Francisco area knows that many homeless people are mentally ill and incapable of taking care of themselves.

More than 124,000 – or one-fifth – of the 610,000 homeless people across the USA suffer from a severe mental illness, according to the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. They're gripped by schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or severe depression — all manageable with the right medication and counseling but debilitating if left untreated.

In a normal, healthy society that has actual human empathy, we would recognize that these people are victims. They require compassion and help.
But as Keller pointed out, we don't like in a normal, healthy society with actual human empathy and compassion. We require these disabled people to heal their mental illnesses while pulling themselves up by bootstraps that they can't afford. And if they can't do that, well, they will be punished.

According to a report by the Treatment Advocacy Center, which includes the anecdotes above, American prisons and jails housed an estimated 356,268 inmates with several mental illness in 2012—on par with the population of Anchorage, Alaska, or Trenton, New Jersey. That figure is more than 10 times the number of mentally ill patients in state psychiatric hospitals in the same year—about 35,000 people.

Three times the number of mentally ill people on the street are behind bars. It's medieval. it's certainly not civilized. In the 50's people were shocked that mentally ill people were "warehoused" in asylums. So we turned those mentally ill people out onto the streets.
Now we are back to warehousing the mentally ill, but this time as criminals. Thus we've gone back to treating mental illness like they did in the 18th Century. Very few people, even liberals, make a big deal about this, because classism is simply accepted in America today.

Being homeless in America today is like being in the "untouchable" caste of India. They are so far down the social scale that they are virtually invisible, even to liberals.

The homeless are just the most obvious example of classism.
There are other, more subtle examples, that sometimes it takes a foreigner to see clearly.

Another characteristic of the new upper class -- and something new under the American sun -- is their easy acceptance of being members of an upper class and their condescension toward ordinary Americans. Try using "redneck" in a conversation with your highly educated friends and see if it triggers any of the nervousness that accompanies other ethnic slurs. Refer to "flyover country" and consider the implications when no one asks, "What does that mean?"

It's quite possible when you read this that you were puzzled about what his point is, and that's the point. It's the soft hypocrisy of liberalism in America today.

I'm a British immigrant, and grew up in a northern English working-class town. Taking my regional accent to Oxford University and then the British civil service, I learned a certain amount about my own class consciousness and other people's snobbery. But in London or Oxford from the 1970s onwards I never witnessed the naked disdain for the working class that much of America's metropolitan elite finds permissible in 2016.
When my wife and I bought some land in West Virginia and built a house there, many friends in Washington asked why we would ever do that. Jokes about guns, banjo music, in-breeding, people without teeth and so forth often followed. These Washington friends, in case you were wondering, are good people. They'd be offended by crass, cruel jokes about any other group. They deplore prejudice and keep an eye out for unconscious bias. More than a few object to the term, "illegal immigrant." Yet somehow they feel the white working class has it coming.

It's almost Bizzaro World how so many extra-sensitive liberals who would never, ever tell a racist joke, and are careful to use the very latest, socially-approved euphemisms for race and sexual preference, have no problem at all stereotyping working poor, working-class white people (i.e. prejudice).
What is even more enlightening is that this very same prejudice doesn't apply to rich white people, who might also be just as racist or ignorant, but are still free of that stereotype by virtue of their wealth.
So the crime of the redneck isn't having white skin. His crime is being poor.

The problem with classism in America today isn't a legal one, it's a cultural one. But unlike racism and sexism, we are not prepared to recognize that classism is a problem.
Hell, most of Americans are in such denial that they fail to even acknowledge the existence of class itself. So the idea that people shouldn't be discriminated against for being poor is a concept that is so far outside of their reality that they don't even recognize it as discrimination.

I use the example of poor whites, not because they are more likely to be the victims of classism, but because discrimination against minorities is automatically assumed to be racism, when that might not be true.
Does that matter? Yes, if you want to eliminate prejudice.
If a large portion of prejudice is being misidentified and mischaracterized, then it would go a long ways toward explaining why the fight against discrimination has such slow progress.

It's sad that discrimination is alive and well, and invisible, in America.

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Big Al's picture

“There's class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.”

That's what it's about, it's what it's always been about.

One of my superficial and simplistic solutions for the human race is to end "Rule by the Rich". Everywhere.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

Americans have no idea that homelessness is a Human Rights violation and has reach atrocity levels by global standards for developed and emerging nations.

::

The United Nations Human Rights Committee has slammed the United States for its criminalization of homelessness, accusing the US Government of “cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment” of the homeless and of violating its obligations under international human rights treaties. It called on the US to reverse its policies and to comply with treaty obligations signed in 1992.

Sir Nigel Rodley, the chairman of the Human Rights Committee, said in the review’s closing statement:

“I’m just simply baffled by the idea that people can be without shelter in a country, and then be treated as criminals for being without shelter. The idea of criminalizing people who don’t have shelter is something that I think many of my colleagues might find as difficult as I do to even begin to comprehend.”

The Committee called on the United States to end the criminalization of homelessness. It recommended that the practice be ended at both state and local levels, and called for intensive efforts to find solutions which comply with international human rights standards. For example, the committee recommended that local authorities be offered funding if they offer humane solutions, and withheld funds from those state and local councils that continue criminalization.

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MarilynW's picture

downtown cores of luxury condos to foreign billionaires. Foreign investors flipping real estate have driven up the cost of housing pushing middle-class and the poor down the ladder, in some cases onto the street. It's hard to stop something when so many people are making so much money from it.

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To thine own self be true.

Pluto's Republic's picture

One out of 11 elementary school children are homeless in Manhattan on any given day. Half have chronic hunger issues.

This is not the case among the top 30 developed nations. More and more, the US is slipping out of the criteria for OECD inclusion. Serious US human rights violations in labor, criminal justice, health, hunger, environment, education, law enforcement, prisons, etc. are just unheard of in other advanced nations. Capital punishment is a human right violation of the very highest order. No decent nation does that.

It's just unbelievable to me. But if I were the boss of the US, I suppose I would thoroughly brainwash the people, too, so they never found out the abusive shithole circumstances of their existence.

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snoopydawg's picture

And the people who commented on it agreed with the guy who made the statement. I'm sure since you live there you also see the contempt people have for the homeless.
I also read that there's a lot of graft in the agencies that are supposed to help the homeless people. I couldn't find any information on what they were talking about though.

And remember that when the Clintons passed the crime bill that anyone who has a felony is barred from being able to get housing assistance. If someone who lives in a housing project and commits a felony the whole household can be kicked out.
I'm still close to being homeless and am on a waiting list for an apartment, but they are less than 500 sf and I would have to either leave, store or leave most of my furniture and appliances.
I have been waiting for a housing voucher so I can find a home with a yard for the dogs, but the wait list for a house is over two years because of the assholes in congress keep cutting funding for it.

Many people bitch about their money going to help those who are less fortunate then they are, as does congress, but no one talks about or even thinks about corporate welfare.
Imagine if those rich corporations were cut off from it and the money went to the less fortunate people in this country.
Almost any one who is in the middle class is just one illness, job loss or accident away from being in these situations.
I used to make good money until one day I picked up a chair the wrong way.

Thanks for writing about this issue. I hope you post it over at the orange satan. I'd like to see people's response.

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Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.

When I was in the Peace Corps in the Dominican Republic, I could help but notice the near complete lack of homeless people. Everyone had a roof over their head, even if the roof was only tin.
Imagine that. A poor country could house their people, but America, a rich nation, can't.
It's not the money. It's the culture, and America's culture can be ugly.

I just put this up on GOS.

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snoopydawg's picture

And could not believe the comments in it. Especially from a Spamnum. What a dick. Because he was able to get out of poverty, he thinks anyone can do what he did. He has no idea about the cycle of poverty that goes back generations. So many people missed the point of what you wrote.

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Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.

mimi's picture

... it erased most of the class differences that existed before. There is a bit of snobbism for successful entrepreneurs, probably much more so in the last 30 years than before, and some remnants of aristrocratic feeling families, but they also lost mostly everything during the war. Real classism on the basis of education and hard work (that differentiates you from the ones without education and supposedly non hard working people) wasn't that easy to establish itself. Poor people got education and jobs and it was never questioned that they could not have it. Often they became much smarter and well rounded than the spoiled rich kids. May this is all old stuff by now. May be I am living still in the sixties.

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lotlizard's picture

and, if all continues to go well, will become the first in her family line ever to go to university.

One thing I already like about Dresden is, the class structure is much flatter compared to my former stamping grounds — the Rhein-Main region surrounding Frankfurt am Main.

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Good article by Jim Hightower on how corporations can focus only on $ and forget all the other values.

Moral obligations lost in a fog of rhetoric Reinventing business "ethics": How corporate honchos gave themselves cover to be as rapacious as they wanna be

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enhydra lutris's picture

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

gulfgal98's picture

There is so much classism in this country that goes even beyond economic classism. The homeless are at the bottom of the class structure, but many of us who live in the South feel the brunt of classism every day at GOS.

I cannot begin to count how many times I have had to remind people that not all of us in the South are politically reactionary or toothless idiots. In my own life, I happen to really enjoy stock car racing and country music, but that would not be acceptable to good liberals because somehow those things are tainted by being mostly Southern in origin. It is a small gripe that I put up with, but it is very indicative of the cultural and class bias that permeates this country. American exceptionalism is a disease and sometimes we Americans are exceptionally bad at what we do to other human beings.

This essay is outstanding in that it serves to remind so called good liberals that they have their own houses to clean up too. I am now going to go over there to recommend your diary. It is most excellent.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Not just one person, but lots of people are telling me with a straight face that "redneck" is not a slur. And if it was a slur, well, they deserve it.

Wow. Just wow.

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Maybe it is a chicken/egg kind of a conversation. There is "old" money and "new" money. If I'm poor, live in shack, can't read or write, shoot guns in the front yard, spit tobacco, have drunken brawls outside, own 3 pit bulls that are unruly and run loose, and win 800 million in the lotto does that mean I won class? Agatha Christie's Miss Marple was poor after the war, but it didn't diminish her standing as gentry. I would define classism much broader than who has money and who doesn't. Money is important, but it can't buy class. I point to Donald Trump.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Classism

Full Definition of classism
: prejudice or discrimination based on class

Class: the opposite of Donald Trump

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This is a real eye-opener.

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mimi's picture

... I regret to not be able to rec your diary over there. It is a very important one, imo. and a good one.

I can only comment from personal experience, which is different from most people in my environment.

Classism is more present in the United States than in Germany and I believe in France as well. I don't know enough about other European countries to make a judgment.

My former and deceased husband was from the poorest and blackest geographical regions in the world. He would have been considered by any European or American as being from the lowest class there could be and the "lowest race" there was (many cultural and racial prejudices towards that part of the world). It was pure luck he became a half-orphan at age 12, and during the French colonial times in his country he was therefore being admitted to that country's only french-speaking boarding high school. He was lucky enough to be good at math and made good grades in his French baccalaureate (already after his country became independent), which French people take serious. They (or the EU) offered him a full scholarship to Europe for his studies.

That was in the midst of the cold war in the mid sixties. He chose Germany for his studies (I guess because he was curious, Germany had been a colonial power in his country and in his village) and was confronted the first time with racism over in Germany (through me for the most part). He never wanted to work in Germany and ended up to work in Italy and the United States as a professionally very qualified person for international organizations.

For what it's worth, Germans and Americans considered his development of having overcome his "class", but not his "race" and some significant cultural features he grew up with. He was the first in his family (eight living siblings) who made a career outside of his home country. Some of them made careers in their home country and also studied in Europe, but none of them (this is the generation born in the 1940ies) made a professional career outside of their African home country.

So, this is a story, which Americans like so much, as you could say he was the first black in the family, who graduated from university and made a good career. My former husband didn't quite see it that way. He felt very much discriminated at his place of employment. And it drove him to become a "difficult black man" so to speak. I have lost more detailed knowledge of his career after separation in the early nineties. He later on worked in the African Union and in Cairo at a bank. I describe this just to explain, that "racism" and "classism" are related but not the same.

His discrimination in his work environment was based on "racism and envy", because some white and brown people just can't handle a black man, who is not willing to sell out politically and are jealous over skills they themselves don't have. That was "racism", because the black man was not "Uncle Tom-ish" and modest/humble/kiss-assing enough and challenged their own limits of accepting a black man as equal politically speaking. Colonialism, Imperialism are not the subjects you discuss openly in those organizations of that nature during the eighties and nineties. Nothing much has changed til today. The political discussions are the same. So, my former husband overcome his "class", but not his "race".

I (lily-white and formerly blonde, now grey) was raised in a secure middle class environment in Germany. I was one of my expanded family cousins, who went into a science education, which was at that time rather unusual. When I dated my former husband I lost "my tribe", because I crossed the lines of races. The way I paid for that "mistake" was significant. That was racism. I never lost my "class relations" in Germany, but endured racism against me through association with a black man.

When I followed my former husband to the US, I was not discriminated by Americans because of my "mistake" with regards to have chosen the wrong race as a partner. They considered me or us as "an interesting case". I lost my professional capabilities in the US. There was not enough money and emotional strength to continue in the same professional field I was educated in. . After separation from my former husband and struggling on my own in the US, I realized that I had lost my "class". Without help I would not have been considered anymore "middle class", but really poor. I changed neighborhoods from the West part of the city to the East part of the city and just observed the real differences of "class" in the US, as it also represents itself in geographical segregation. If you will I lost my "class" and my "racial connections to my tribe".

My son got completely caught up and destroyed through having to make the moves his parents' careers and decisions forced upon him as a child. He lived as a young teenage boy among the "upper class neighborhoods" in the US and socialized with kids from the "rich". Those rich kids didn't quite understand what his family was about. They considered it some kind of "diplomatic" environment, with a father's race of black and middle class and a mother's race of white, being foreign. And my former husband never socialized with anyone in the US other than Africans. My son didn't understand anything of what was going on with him. He just tried to "keep up" with his peers, which didn't work out. So, he was "black", but "middle class" and a foreigner, not "black", like "Afro-American blackish". Clearly not easy to know into which "class" and which "race" to put him.

Later it became rather obvious. He is the only child in my rather expanded family of a lot of cousins in Germany, who didn't get a proper college education or professional training. I know a couple of German couples in the US, who had the same experience. Their kids didn't make it in college and they all felt ashamed as they were the only ones in their German families, whose kids didn't go to university. They became working class in the US and lost "middle class" categorization they would have had, were they raised in Germany. My son lost his "class" in the eyes of Germans. And in my own eyes he lost almost everything, he should have gotten. Of course I blame myself for it quite a bit.

When my son experienced his loss of "class", he enlisted in the US military. The Germans (something we both were not aware of) didn't like that too much, they took away his German citizenship, because he had accepted the US citizenship. So, my son had lost not only his "class" and one half of his tribal relations (German), but also his original citizenship. His race was considered always as black, no matter where.

Usually the Americans think of an immigrant as being lucky, feeling that to immigrate into the US as a huge advantage for them. "You can make it if you work hard. Always." The American Dream is all what the Dreamers think about. Well, I would condition that statement, an immigrant, who is part of the "poor class", which probably 95 percent of US immigrants are, before they came, legally or illegally. What these immigrants are able to do is overcome their "class", but that doesn't mean they would overcome their "race" or "ethnicity" and potential resentments against them because of it.

My niece (deceased here in the US) was a little brown, but not much. Her father was from India (Goa) with portuguese roots. In Goa her father was a bit part of Goa's "aristrocrats" or "upper middle class" as a decedent of Portuguese employees of the British colonial administration in India. For Germans he was considered "poorer" but "educated and culturally sophisticated". Her father became a student in London and then in Germany. His daughter (my niece) was raised in a solid middle class family in Germany with her father having a good career there. She herself studied in France and then came to the US on a grant, started to work in the US in academia and accomplished to secure an income for herself. During that time her father died in Germany. Immediately she was considered by the Americans, who decided upon her "class" category to be "lower and working class", because she was a "brownish orphan". My niece couldn't believe it, but just wondered about it, as in the end it helped her being considered for special treatment as brown and poor person.

I just dare to tell this story to show that "class" and "race" are intertwined, but different things. Poor white immigrants from Europe in the last centuries either made it into the "middle class" or remained in the "working poor class". The couple of better off immigrants from Europe made it to the "upper class rich". The class division is palpable til today. The racial divisions due to the slavery history have never been overcome, together with the poverty and categorization of "lower class", "middle class" and "upper class".

Just saying, it's the usual shit. No fun to be poor, no fun to be black and if you are both, who would care if that is classism or racism, it's definitely a yuuuge social burden. And I do believe that socialism or democratic socialism is basically the only way to overcome the class society and I would hope it will have a healing effect on the race relations.

Heh, that's why I say: Go Bernie. Smile

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Wow.

Bridge culture & classes is not easy. Your husband sounds like a difficult person to be around and to live with.

Hope your son can find a path for his life that is smooth in some places.

Thanks for sharing this. We have exchanged messages over the years and now I know you a lot better.

As always,

Don

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Unabashed Liberal's picture

racism exists. My example of one AA woman's experience/perception below, was just that--anecdotal. Mostly mentioned to to bring 'regional cultural bias' into the conversation, as well.

I was the white EEO Counselor in the same Command that Linda and I were stationed at (at the time). There were five AA EEO counselors, in addition. I was brought in mostly because the counselors noted a reluctance by some white complainants to pursue their discrimination grievances, which they attributed to 'their' race.

But, as you so aptly put it, it's sometimes difficult to discern where racism, classism, and cultural biases began, and end.

Mollie
elinkarlsson@WordPress


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Unabashed Liberal's picture

I cannot 'rec' comments at the DKos website, but I'm on my way over to tip you. (I'm not censored, or anything--just don't have a 'rec' button since they switched to the new format.)

Mr M and I have been distressed for years about this issues, since we've both counseled many folks who lived on the margins (as they say). If anything, most of the are deserving of 'kudos' for the courage and resilience that they demonstrate in their daily lives, with all the obstacles that they face in attempting to carry out even the most basic of tasks. Especially, in a society that literally 'demonizes' poverty.

Nancy's comment reminds me of a (Civil Service) friend, Linda. She was the Administrative Assistant to a Base Commander over oversaw several clerical workers. While not classified as a full professional, she was a mid-grade GS-8 with a B.A, and one of the most competent folks that I've ever had the pleasure to deal with.

Anyhoo, when i met Linda the first time, she asked me where I was from. The surprise was on me, when I found out that she was also (originally) from the Deep South. (Linda was also African-American, BTW.) Turns out, Linda felt that she was so discriminated against because of 'regional cultural bias' due to her Southern accent, she had taken diction lessons. (BTW, they served her well.) Later, after considering her analysis, I followed suit. I'd never had the perception that it was affecting me adversely (my accent wasn't heavy, and I'm white), but I thought that she was prescient in her grasp of the 'potential' for such bias.

Bear in mind, the federal government has very strong EEO practices/protections. And all employees (non-supervisory) have access to union protections. I often thought it was unfair that while in supervisory positions, employees (including myself and Linda) had to terminate our union membership. IMO, it should only apply to those employees at GM directorate level, or employees who are in a SES--Senior Executive Schedule--position [some of which are political appointees].

Bottom line--for Linda, the only prejudice that she felt she'd experienced in the DOD system, was that related to bias against 'Southerners.' For the most part, I'd consider this bias to be more a cultural, than a class bias, since it could extend to those of us in fully professional positions, as well.

Heck, there was a time that I didn't let on that we had a residence in the Mid-South (not our primary, actually), or that I spent my childhood in the Deep South. But, anymore, I don't allow it to bother me. It's just not worth it. (Which is not to say that it isn't a good thing to push back against this. I simply don't have the appetite for the discourse that usually ensues. When I did attempt to do so, I never felt that I had changed any minds.)

On occasion, I've observed more than a few bloggers scratching their heads, and wondering out loud--"Why have so many Southerners defected from the Dem Party?" That, after regularly slinging around a bunch of vitriolic and totally derogatory words/phrases to describe Southerners of all stripes. Whew!

Go figure . . .

So pushed for the next several weeks, can't blog much. But, we're still following the races via satellite radio.

Can't wait to see how SC and Nevada turn out! I'm hoping to see a blowout (on Bernie's part), so that the primary doesn't drag into July or later. Apparently, FSC's campaign staff has been trying to 'lower expectations' for several days, now. And this afternoon, one of Bernie's campaign staff members announced that they were in this race to the finish (maybe they had already done so--but, we hadn't heard it).

Postscript: Wolf is already giving Nevada results--advantage to Bernie!

Hey, have a nice weekend, Everyone!

Bye

Mollie
elinkarlsson@WordPress


"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went."--Will Rogers
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