Hey Democrats! Do you ever want to win again? (Updated)

I finally decided to write a valedictory diary over at TOP, after not participating there in over six months. I'm publishing it here first, and will let them know where to find the original. Warning: some links are to DailyKos diaries.

And this morning I added an update to the DK diary, as a response to the furor.

Update: So I’m out of the penalty box, and wanted to put in one last word. Thanks to all of you who read and responded to what I wrote. To those who clearly didn’t read or didn’t consider my points, thank you for illustrating my thesis. Too many Democratic party loyalists here seem determined to learn nothing from the election returns. Trying to turn the Electoral College is a fool’s errand. Citing the popular vote is pointless: Hillary lost the damn election, people. Blaming the Russians or James Comey or me for that loss is engaging in the most hopeless form of denial of the real problem: the Democratic party is at its weakest point in almost a century, thanks to the actions of its leadership over the last three decades. And to those here attacking me personally, or Jill Stein voters, or anybody who’s not already on board the Democratic party as you think it should be, congratulations. You are and remain the problem, and you stand in the way of the solution.

I’ve been missing from around these parts since our Dear Leader pronounced that free speech would no longer be tolerated in his joint. (Remind you of anyone?) The Brock-sponsored shills have come and gone, so I thought I’d come back to take a look around. Not a pretty sight. It appears that the Orthodox wing of the party, well represented here, seems determined to learn nothing from last month’s events. Instead it has doubled down on its delusions and its failed approach to politics, and is as hostile as ever to anyone disagreeing with them. Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi are in charge, assuring that the Wall Street sponsors of the party will maintain their grip on control like Gollum clutching the Ring as he hurtles down to a sea of fire.

Newbies won’t know who I am. Ask around. I had been here since late 2004, and have been a consistent commenter and staunch advocate of the Democratic wing of the Democratic party. But now I’m an independent. I left the party after the Convention, disgusted at the cynicism and overreach of the Clinton campaign. Subsequent revelations from Wikileaks only confirm what I already knew. This is the first time in over 40 years, since I first registered to vote, that I am not a Democrat. But, as so many former Republicans — and a growing number of former Democrats — have said: I didn’t leave the party, the party left me. DLC controllers (starting with the Clintons), Wall Street greedheads, asshole manipulators like David Brock, and sanctimonious know-nothings have all played a part in my departure. I do not contemplate rejoining the Democratic party in the near future, and may never do so again.

I am not alone. From a recent high of 36% of the electorate in 2008, Democratic party share of the electorate has hovered around 26-28% in estimates during the general election. Independents far outnumber Republicans or Democrats, and it is not unreasonable to suspect that they could approach the number of Republicans and Democrats when Gallup gets around to its biennial count in January. The result in electoral failure for the Democratic party since the 2010 midterms is well known around here, and it mirrors the failure of formerly center-left parties in Europe as well. When I was a Democrat and writing around here, I warned against the temptation to blame scapegoats and avoid embracing the need for the party to change. I pointed out that the history of the Clintons’ corruptions was the story of the Democratic party in recent years, and argued for the need for a change. The party stubbornly resisted change or cleaning itself up. It embraced the status quo, and its comfortable Establishment identity. It told those demanding better to shut up and cheer, and fall in line. This site was a typical and reliable mouthpiece for the party establishment in these respects. I did not want to abide by the political fictions it embraced in recent months, so for the first time in over a decade I left.

If Democrats want to win again, they need to win me back. Far more importantly, they need to win millions of voters back, and embrace a lot more. What is the party doing wrong, and what can it do differently?

Stop taking voters for granted

[video:https://youtu.be/JDUjeR01wnU]

I was a vociferous Bernie backer during the primaries, seeing him as the last best chance for the Democratic party to remember its New Deal, working class identity. The Clinton campaign’s cynical, divisive, dishonest politicking during the primaries disgusted me, and Hillary Clinton’s ham-handed and outrageously insulting outreach to Republicans even during the primaries disqualified her for my vote. In November, I voted for Jill Stein for president.

Want to blame me for Donald Trump? Well, go fuck yourself. Hillary Clinton threw away my vote in the general election. She won my state handily without my vote, so I had nothing to do with her losing. In January of this year I warned the DailyKos community of what would happen if Hillary Clinton ran against Donald Trump:

The most important lesson the 2016 campaign teaches so far is that people are fed up with the status quo, and are no longer willing to listen to the establishment’s opinion shapers telling them the way things are supposed to be. They are increasingly believing their lying eyes…. People in general are increasingly unwilling to accept the arguments for the status quo, the preemptive capitulation to the power of money, the reality of oligarchy.

Both Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders derive much of the power driving their candidacies from this rebellious mood. They speak different languages to different audiences, but the subtext of their appeal is similar in this respect. Throw the Bums Out is a much more potent argument this year than More of the Same. And people are increasingly wise to the game power plays, in which bums are thrown out to be replaced by more bums….

Hillary Clinton’s long record (the downside of “experience” is that it leaves a record) leaves her defenseless against the weapon of the corruption issue. And Republicans know it. Donald Trump has already fired a shot across her bow by mentioning her association with him. It is not unlikely that one of the reasons the Republican establishment has begun cozying up to the Donald is that they see a possibility he can beat Hillary. If they’re right, corruption will no doubt be the main feature of their general election campaign. Another endless round of accusations and scandals surrounding a Clinton, this time with a lot more evidence than was available to those pushing the Vince Foster conspiracy nonsense….

Indeed, “Crooked Hillary” was a constant refrain from Donald Trump on the campaign trail. Blame me for being a Cassandra if you wish, but I’m not the reason 68% of the electorate found Hillary Clinton dishonest and untrustworthy. Yes, yes, 30 years of right-wing attacks blah blah blah, but the point Clinton fans refuse to acknowledge is that Bill and Hillary Clinton’s own actions created that distrust. They were constantly engaged in dodgy and barely-legal (if that) stuff that invited Republican attacks. They created a target-rich environment for these attacks, and Hillary reaped what she sowed. So did all the rest of us, unfortunately.

Clintonian triangulation has become the meat and drink of modern Democratic party politics. The Clintons were all about slicing and dicing the electorate, trying to appeal to this group or that to try to cobble together a bare majority. The Democratic party has followed their lead. DailyKos is a hotbed of this stupidity. Every damn day you read people talking about PoC or women or the WWC or college-educated white people or whatnot. These groups are treated as the indivisible atoms of political tactics. The stereotyping and disregard for the individuality of voters, who have their own concerns and conflicts and histories and ideas, is lost in this triangulating calculus. People don’t fit neatly into little boxes. Nobody likes being treated as a stereotype, and that’s pretty much all today’s Democratic party does come campaign season. The results of this approach can be seen in Washington, in state capitols, and among dog-catchers nationwide.

Democratic politicians act as if they own the votes of “their base,” the contents of the little boxes they feel they’ve collected on their side. “Where else are they going to go?” is the implicit — and sometimes explicit — assumption. The obvious answer, as midterm elections and even last month’s general election showed, is “Away.” For every Stein voter there were scores of “Democratic” “base” voters who stayed home, or even showed up but didn’t vote for president. The Democratic party is entitled to precisely no one’s vote. It has to earn every one. And it has been failing to win enough of them to win elections, very conspicuously and catastrophically in recent years.


It's the economy, stupid

Arguments have raged around here, as at many other social media sites and Democratic-leaning media outlets, about an alleged battle between economic populist issues, as represented by Bernie Sanders’ campaign, and social justice issues, as purportedly represented by Hillary Clinton’s campaign. These are often portrayed as being in opposition, a binary choice. The argument is often framed as which is more important. Let me be clear: this is stupid and is bullshit. Economic and social justice issues are not opposed to each other. They are like your right and left hand. You need both to be fully functional and operate at peak efficiency. They are not identical, but they are matched. They proceed from the same set of values and moral imperatives. They are the political embodiment of the Golden Rule. They are why most of us became Democrats in the first place.

Those pitting one set of issues against the other refuse to see this obvious truth. There is always a reason for this, though people’s reasons differ. But the end result of these arguments, like all such arguments pitting people against each other in politics, is the same: The owners of this country win. Divide and Conquer is ruling class politics 101: it’s as basic a technique as there is for keeping a country’s people under the thumb of its ownership class. Those who foment such arguments are doing the bidding of the oligarchs, whether they choose to see it that way or not.

The New Deal Democratic party found its way out of the political wilderness and built an enduring majority party that lasted for decades by essentially standing up for the 99% against the 1%, as we would put it today. Of course there were aspects of racism and injustice it committed, as it was a creation of its time and place. But it generally did not worsen these social ills while it pursued the goals of economic justice. (Yes, Manzanar was one glaring exception, and you could name others.) Did it do enough to fight racism and sexism and other forms of inequality? Of course not. But the New Deal Democratic party convinced African-Americans to become Democrats rather than Republicans pretty overwhelmingly, so in the context of the time they must have done something right.

Today we have economic inequality rivaling the worst of the Gilded Age or the Roaring Twenties, and it shows no sign of abating its rapidly worsening trend. Poor, working class and middle class Americans are hurting. Most are worried and pessimistic about the future. Median household income hasn’t come close to recovering from the level it reached at the end of the 1990’s, as a bubble-fueled economic boom was about to pop. US life expectancy has begun to fall, a surefire sign of a sick society. The suicide rate in this country is at a 30 year high, with women and middle-aged Americans killing themselves at much higher rates than in the past. Our national infrastructure is getting worse all the time. All these big-picture statistics paint a nation in decline, offering the mass of its citizens little or no reason for optimism.

Today’s Democratic party offers little hope for the vast majority of Americans worried about their economic security today and in the future. Obamacare is its main recent achievement, but increasing numbers of Americans are finding their mandated insurance unaffordable to use if they need it, and rising premiums for insurance they can’t afford to use only deepens their stress. Hillary Clinton’s campaign offered little to address these concerns: Jobs only rated fifth among her campaign’s issues-based ads, and economic issues didn’t hit the top five in her allied super-PAC’s advertising. But for decades, the Democratic party has moved away from lunchbucket economic issues and constituencies. It’s no accident that Card Check never came up in the 2009-10 Congress, or that Barack Obama never put on his comfortable shoes to walk a picket line. Everybody could see Barack Obama’s quest for the TPP, just like they could see his previous quest for a Grand Bargain to cut Social Security. He was Captain Ahab on these issues, for Chrissakes. And nobody believed Hillary Clinton’s campaign conversion on the TPP. Nobody trusts her, remember?

Concern for working class welfare is not racist. PoC are disproportionately represented in this class, as are women, and their concerns for a living wage, a chance to put some savings away and buy a home, and see their kids have a better life are not substantially different than working class white men. Participating in the Divide and Conquer game, just like the Republicans, only gives people scapegoats to blame for their troubles. The false dichotomy between economic and social issues has in practice allowed the Democratic party to continue to pursue it’s economic agenda favoring the wealthy while pretending to be “progressive” or “liberal” or “left.” In doing so, they have robbed these labels of much of their historic meaning. These words are signifiers that signify less and less. Looking back to January, I observed this as well:

Today we are functionally an oligarchy, with the Democratic and Republican parties acting as divisions in the Governmental Affairs Department of America, Inc…. [T]he New Deal Democratic party is as dead as the Whigs. Our latter-day version is one more vehicle of corporate influence: the Goldman Division, as it were. We are locked in phony battle with the Koch Division for spectacles of Potemkin democracy, which offer choices that cost the owners of this country nothing and usually improve their quarterly numbers. Nothing can be done anymore that doesn't pay off billionaire sponsors first and last. Social wedge issues are used by both parties to keep their partisans cheering, but these issues have negligible cost to the sponsors of the contest.


You catch more voters with honey than with vinegar

When I bowed out of participation here, Bernie Sanders supporters were being run off in fairly vile and hateful ways. It was made clear that we were not welcome, and the Clinton campaign didn’t need us. We would be tolerated, barely, if we behaved ourselves and didn’t bring up inconvenient facts. Even these days, with the Clinton campaign reduced to a smoking crater in the ground, this sentiment is common — it seems to be the prevailing sentiment still, in my brief visits lately. How did that exclusionary vision work out for you Clinton fans?

It wasn’t just DailyKos. The Clinton campaign was just as bad at the convention, muzzling and evicting Sanders delegates from the floor. Clinton made plays for suburban Republican voters, and her campaign explicitly believed that they’d pick up more country-club Republican voters than they’d lose pissed off working class folks. The entire campaign was the apotheosis of Clintonian triangulation, and perfectly reflected Thomas Frank’s thesis in his recent book "Listen, Liberal." Accusations of Racism and Sexism and Privilege were liberally (!) hurled at those who didn’t toe the party line, in a transparent effort to silence dissent. These accusations were usually wrong, and always truculent. The economic left of the party — what remained of it — was shown the door of the not-so-big tent.

Candidates and parties win when more voters vote for them than the other side. Exclusionary rhetoric and intolerant gaslighting does not win support, it actively repels it. After years of criticizing the Democratic party from the inside, in an effort to improve it, I gave up on it this year. I voted for some Democrats, but not for Hillary Clinton. Again, my single vote didn’t make a difference, as Democrats won up and down my ballot. But I offer myself as a cautionary tale to the purity police on DailyKos and around the Democratic party, for whom any deviation from party orthodoxy is cause for burning at the stake. You party purists are not always right, and you’re almost always wrong when it comes to attacking anyone who doesn’t agree with you or vote the way you want them to all the time.

Here are some suggestions, from a former Democrat many of you know:

1. If you want more votes, you need to do more listening and less accusing. Ask questions of people, and listen to what they tell you. Efforts to “improve your messaging,” so popular around here, only amount to finding more ways to tell people what you think they should believe. This is rarely convincing or productive.
2. You need to find some humility, and admit that once in a while, perhaps, you might be wrong about something. Especially those of you who were comprehensively wrong during the late campaign season. Dog knows the Democratic party has had enough lessons in humility lately, and it will have more until it starts to learn what those lessons are trying to teach.
3. Don’t set yourself up in opposition to the large majority of voters, white people. You don’t have to pander to racists to find a common agenda that appeals to a wide swath of white voters, while maintaining a strong social justice agenda. The Democratic party did just this for decades, with far more success than it currently claims.
4. Address the economic fears and pain so many of your countrymen and women face, even if their lives are not like yours. Develop a forward-looking vision for what this country can do to reinvent its middle class, and rescue itself from the clutches of rapacious billionaires. Even if they are big Clinton donors.
5. Apologize to the voters. Admit that what you’ve been doing hasn’t worked. Listen to other ideas for what might work better. And admit, Goddammit, that what has happened to the Democratic party is its own damn fault. Stop the scapegoat hunt, and place the blame on the people who’ve actually been making the decision and calling the shots that led to this catastrophe.

If you ever want to win elections again, stop telling me and millions of other people like me that we’re traitors or selfish dicks, and start figuring out how to give us a party we might want to vote for again. If you can manage that, I’m willing to come back. If not, have the decency to clear the rotting carcass of your party off the road so something better can get around it.

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Amazing really, its become the Breitbart of the Neo-liberals

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loved and appreciated your writing for so many years, Dallasdoc, I want to say this is one of your best pieces, and this part just kills me.

Hillary Clinton’s long record (the downside of “experience” is that it leaves a record) leaves her defenseless against the weapon of the corruption issue. And Republicans know it. Donald Trump has already fired a shot across her bow by mentioning her association with him.

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in the piece that DD referred to...the playbook on Hillary was already written and proved to be effective (in 2008) so whose fault is it that no adjustments were made in the playcalling?

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Cassiodorus's picture

was that Hillary Clinton was going to be the Democratic nominee, the only "adjustments" possible were by those who did not step in line. All of the other elites were pretty much locked into position. They're still locked into position.

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"there's something so especially sadistic about waving the flag of a country that you're actively destroying" -- Aaron Mate

I wasn't convinced about Obama. I was dragged into his corner by the dailykos gang. I was going to call it a community, except it is anything but. 8 years of Obama was enough to convince me never again. He was the last straw, the neoliberal that finally broke the donkey's back.

If Democrats run Biden or another insider, they can plan on losing again. I will never vote for another corporate Democrat - NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. Obama was elected with a mandate and a majority. The GOP was gasping for air. Not only did Obama save the Republican Party from obscurity, he totally wasted his mandate and majority on war, austerity, corporate health care, protecting bankers and torturers, and making the Bush tax cuts permanent. Just since Obama took office, the neoliberal Democrats have lost: 14 Senate seats, 69 House seats, 12 governorships, 910 state legislature seats, stole the primary from Bernie, and insisted on running the only person on the planet capable of losing to Donald Trump. Did the Russians steal all of these elections too?

I am no longer a Democrat either. As Doc say, the party left me, and Kos kicked me and his credibility right out of DeadState's door. I am sick of the censorship, fighting, and gangs at ToP, and I am sick of identity politics being stuffed down my throat. I won't be misdirected by divide and conquer, and I never bought blaming white people and males for everything . Social justice and economic justice - for all - is a matched pair. If the Democrats want my vote, they'll earn it. Trump hurts me more than he hurts them.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Phoebe Loosinhouse's picture

Some former rock solid Democratic votes stayed home, voted Green, or undervoted and left the top of the ballot blank. This is phenomenal in a Presidential year and with Donald Trump as the opposition, I don't think it can be overstated.

After decades of being co-erced by "Supreme Court" and "lesser evil" some Bernie Dems and Dem biased Independents finally said "no more, we've had enough" probably pushed to extremis by the hate campaign run against them. This is following the strategy that the Tea Party and the religious right waged against the Republicans to move their status from "ignored" to "feared" - sit out elections until their needs were addressed. I think it's a step in the right direction.

The Democratic Party has two routes they can go:A - try to appeal to alienated Republicans/moderates or B- try to appeal to alienated Dems/Liberals. Because they are still headed by the same people who have lost seats and influence lo these many years, smart money says they go with option A and continue down the same path of failed New Democrat ism. A swing to B will be a nod to the Bernie faction within the Party. All anyone needs to know about the future of the Party will be revealed with the next slate of candidates and the election rhetoric IMO.

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" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "

I think I understand your point, but it seems to me that the Clinton playbook was an amalgam of Obama's 2008 playbook that worked and Clinton's 2008 playbook that didn't

As was noted, a critical piece of the Obama playbook was unavailable to Clinton. Having a minimal record at the federal level he could, and by his own admission did, present voters with a mirror in which they all could see their own hopes for change reflected. With 25 years of activity at the federal level, much of it as a major target of the opposition, Clinton could not use what may have been Obama's greatest advantage.

But those fights against Republicans had a potential upside too. She could have put herself forward as the candidate with the strength to stand up to Republicans. But she squandered that opportunity. I suspect the reason is that she really does have a great deal in common with traditional Republicans on economic issues. Those suburban Republican votes proved too tempting. She got them in significant numbers, but in some critical states she didn't get enough to offset losses in the traditional Democratic base. It would not surprise me to learn when voting patterns are more fully analysed that her strategy created some of the problems for down ballot Democrats. How many suburban Republicans voted for Clinton and Toomey?

Finally, there is a pattern that seems ingrained in the heart of the Clinton playbook. People supporting someone other than Clinton are somehow morally defective. You see it with the Obama boys, Bernie bros, and the Deplorables. It may be a matter of psychological disposition. Obama is extremely confident of his ability to make people like him. Hillary Clinton has had considerably less success. Her experiences must have left scars. It must have been extremely painful to see Bernie then Trump produce wildly enthusiastic crowds while her smaller number of public appearances had to be orchestrated to minimize possible commentary over turnout.

Hillary Clinton needed a trusted adviser with the clout to tell her she needed to select a VP candidate who filled in her weaknesses, someone who generated enthusiasm and reached out at least a bit to the Democratic base on the left. Instead she selected Tim Kaine who frankly admitted "I'm a boring candidate."

And so, President Trump.

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elenacarlena's picture

She could have run with Liz Warren or even Bernie.

But IMO, her fragile ego would not let her select someone who might be more popular than her, even though she still would have been The One on the top of the ticket.

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

that DD refers to is that Bernie didn't do anything or say anything that 2008 Edwards and Obama didn't say...hell, even Trump retweeted some of those 2008 Obama ads and portions of speech about Clinton: "See, even Obama said that she really was Crooked Hillary in so many words!"

That would have been OK in 2016 if all they could come up with was the old scandals but...here comes some new shit that all the Clintons could do was to play the same old games.

And please...don't get me started on the "woe is me" Clinton BS..

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shaharazade's picture

for me lies with the concept of 'play book'. People have read the phony red/blue duopoly 'book' over and over again and they do not buy the story line anymore. 'Trusted advisors' is the last thing a psycho like Hillary needs fer god sake. Ordinary people turned out to vote after 8 years of the Bush/Cheney regime to get some needed relief. Instead they got a gigantic bait and switch from the entire complicit New Demorat party. They took the prescribed remedies off the table.

It's a oligrachicail duopoly what is so hard to grasp about this? It irrelevant which asshole pol she picked as a VP, it's irrelevant what play book Mook, Huma, Podesta and all her advisors said to use. What she and the party we're selling was rotten to the core. Packaging, persona and empty identity politics will not work when people are forced to live under the 'inevitable' anti-democratic globalized reality they get after they vote for the architects and enforcers of Axelrod's 'world as we find it'. People are just not this stupid, they have had enough.

Reaching out to the left or the base is absurd. I'm a sanctimonious far lefty and the last thing I want is these the real enemy reaching out to me. Forget about it. I think people regardless of where they stand on the fictitious tweaked political spectrum of ideological nonsense and culture war bs. have as Bernie said had enough. People are not just marketing demographic's that can be diced and sliced to con their vote/consent from when they arre oppressed to this point. Consonance with and for what, the continuing global nightmare of endless bloody war and austerity for all to maintain the anti-democratic transnational rulers of the world? Socially liberal my ass.

I don't have to 'like' a pol that's ridiculous. Obama was a talented con man a grifter and a liar. People of good spirit fell for it and paid dearly. When 60+ equals a majority, dirty deals with the for profit 'healthcare industry' equals affordable healthcare you must believe in and SS cat food commission's are victories for compromise you know damn well you've been had.

Then there is neoloiberal/neocon economic injustice that says sorry your a loser and you must sacrifice to keep this god awful viscous system from failing. It's already failed in every way for humanity and the planet. To add insult to injury they tell you 'it's worth it' to kill, bomb and set the world on fire for dominance, power and profit for the Davos crowd's dead sicky world. Hey it's progress and nothing can reverse it as it's the inevitable way forward. Bull shit.

When things get this bad for ordinary people of all race, gender, class (other then the top investor society) who cares about likability. Who gets enthusiastic about voting for more of the same please. This is not a partisan site and I am glad that the Democratic party is finally going down. Why in the hell would anyone want to resuscitate the rotten to the core complicit Democratic party. Bernie did not start the 'movement' he gave political voice to the growing awareness of 'the intolerable status quo'.

Politics are not static and neither is history. Lesser evil does not cut it in this nasty ass run amuck disaster capitalistic world as we find it. Neither does fear apparently. This is the good news about "We're so Screwed 2016'. Stick a fork in it the Democratic party is history. It's irredeemable. Why waste time mucking about with the very people and entities that mean people and the planet harm and death? There are other alternatives ways for humans to take the oligarchical collectivist's down, they are not inevitable, they always say they are but when they go too far people find a way to rein them in. They will again but it won't come about using the vehicle of the long gone Democratic party.

I thought this site was not partisan and not for pumping the persona pols of mass deception? Are we now dkos jr. where all things are viewed through the lens of the defunct Democratic party? Court Dem. intrigues, pols persona, Dem. rifts and ridiculous identity politics seem to have drifted into being the main thing here. Fine with me to discuss politics but there really is a way outside the Democratic partisan mind set. I have no interest in rehashing what the Democrat's did wrong and how to manipulate people into voting for the rat bastards in the future, it's like flogging a dead horse.

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right up until the Are we now dkos jr? part. People here can write about anything that interests them. Other people can read, comment or skip. If you have no interest, why read?

It sounds like you're ready to step into the Markos role at C99%. If JtC wanted a censor I suspect he'd appoint one. There is plenty of room for you to write about the things in which you have an interest.

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shaharazade's picture

you are free to write about anything you want. I should of refrained from the dkos jr. bit but that would be self censoring on my part. I'm allowed to not like the direction i see this site drifting into. Speaking of which telling me to not read about Democratic partisan strategy and hackery if I'm not interested is the essence of dkos mentality. I am free here to have to avoid commenting on what I see as partisan bs. with o redeeming value other than keeping the Democratic anti-democratic game afloat. I do not appreciate being told that I cannot bad mouth DOV or have the 'progressive' contingency of dkos coming here and making this site be all about the infighting and intrigues of Democratic party politics.

Shades of Marcho's saying to me over and over 'It's a big internet perhaps you would be happier somewhere else'. Like I said and JtC has said this is not a partisan or pol fan site. I'm also free to read anything I want here and comment on it. Big Al isn't trying to be a censor either but that doesn't mean that if he doesn't like the drift from dkos he isn't allowed to talk about it. It works two ways. I really wasn't directing this at you. This whole thread had become a discussion of the persona's and Democratic faction's from dkos that drove me away from that site in the first place.

I haven't been a Democrat since 2011. I love this site and do not want to have it become another partisan site that is wall to wall about the despicable useless Democratic parties winning. I'm glad they lost they deserved it. Go complain to johnny about my being a censor if you think that's what I'm doing. Leaving and totally rejecting an authoritarian site is more then just being polite with the same partisan mind set. My apology as this wasn't directed at you personally but if you start taking about the Mad Bombers meme's, advisors and messaging it gets my hackles up. Yes politics interests me, I'm a political junkie but have no desire to have to argue or discus partisan politics that are centered in being reactionary to dkos or all about the reviving the odious Democratic party.

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Generally, I seek out your comments. I enjoy your perspective. I have no doubt that the shape of the site has changed substantially since the exodus from TOP. I don't think it could have been avoided. The only way it could be minimized is if a substantial portion of the immigrants self-censored. I doubt that you want that.

My comment about skipping essays relates to your comment about not being interested. It sounds to me as though you are interested in explaining to people that talking about Democratic behavior in the last election is a waste of time. That's great. We need to hear it.

I'm undecided about whether the Democratic Party can be reformed. We saw the lengths to which the establishment will go to thwart a challenge. On the other side, we saw how close a challenger from a tiny state came. As for third parties, the Green Party did not reach 5% under circumstances that seem to me to be as good as it's likely to get in the foreseeable future.

Maybe activity outside the system is the way to go. Activism scored a major triumph at Standing Rock. I hope it endures. On the other hand, Standing Rock, violent suppression of OWS, and similar activities cause me to fear that the establishment will use such activities as a pretext to suppress dissent with ever growing violence.

I want to hear what people think on all these subjects and more. Sometimes I respond within the context of the essay, sometimes from beyond its context.

It does seem to me that a place that offers the freedom of C99% will inevitably be shaped by some aggregation of the beliefs of its members at any given point in time. I don't see a way around that you or I would find acceptable.

Finally, I am deeply sorry for causing you to feel the need to apologize. That was not at all my intention.

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shaharazade's picture

it was nothing you said in your copmment, it was my reaction to the never ending bs of insider Dem. pointless electoral politics.When the thread veered off into identity politics, accusations of racial tone deafness and defending the racist DOV with dkos style taking points I lost it and got defensive. I am glad this site is expanding and growing but i am sensitive to having it become like dkos without Markos. It is not a partisan site and I hope it stays that way. I am interested in politics just not in having the Democratic party win anything ever again. I think any desperately needed change we get at this point will have to come from outside the good cop, bad cop political theater that the duopoly put's on. By not interested I mean I do not want to resuscitate this rotten to the core party. I have read and enjoyed your posts here you do not deserve to get the brunt of my personal freak out and PTSD regarding dkos.

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Hang in there. I think we have similar feelings.

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tell me of a time or a place when politics hasn't involved some sort of gamesmanship or court intrigue of sort?

That's with any political system in any time period (so it's pretty static and part of the human condition).

It is what it is.

I didn't think that "overthrowing The Establishment" had any meaning in any sort of context when, if successful, the ant-establishment becomes the Establishment and does Establishment-y things

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snoopydawg's picture

DD I read the diary you linked to and this is in it.

We out of the White House not only dead broke, but in debt," Clinton said. "We had no money when we got there, and we struggled to piece together the resources for mortgages for houses, for Chelsea's education. It was not easy. Bill has worked really hard. And it's been amazing to me. He's worked very hard.

What a lie. In one of the articles about the Clinton's ties to the banks and their vampiric relationship, the author states that Paulson who was working at Citibank gave them a $2 million loan to buy their house and that's Bill started getting paid to give his speeches to the banks and other corporations and their careers as paid speechers took off.
Their mortgage payment was $10,000 a month and there was a cottage for the secret service to live in and the Clintons charged the government $10,000 a month for them to live there.
I don't know what the living arrangements are for SS agents while protecting ex presidents but that's another lie Hillary told.
And does anyone believe that Chelsea didn't have a scholarship or some type of arrangement to go to Stanford?
Hey Hillary, you want to know what dead broke is? Come visit me or anyone trying to live off of SSI, SSDI or SS with no other means of support.
Gawd, her hubris is so ................!

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

elmo's picture

on a U.S. Senator's salary ($174,000) plus a president's pension ($200,000). Most Americans would love to be that dead broke!

And as for "struggling" to scrape together the resources to pay for Chelsea's education, you'd think that might give her empathy for other families struggling to pay for their children's higher education. Maybe make her understand that free public college is a pretty good idea? But, noooo!

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Even the smallest person can change the course of the future

Deja's picture

I remember reading that, and the plural form of the words stuck out and poked me in the eye! Barf bucket, please.

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The minute they signed their book contracts & got their advances they were rolling in money. That was probably at 12:01 Jan 20.

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Yellerdog's picture

Hey Doc wondered what became of you. Thanks for guiding me though the wilderness from the "other" site.

Basically my comments are that the Party has known the Clinton vulnerabilities for years to blame the other side for exploiting them is at best disingenuous. Why wouldn't they? If you look at history some of the worst candidates are those who were nominated because it was their turn.

One of my pet theories is that candidates never win on the facts but because they are exciting. it's a common trait shared by Sander's and Trump just in different ways. They are both able to fire up their supporters. Hillary had the fact, the proposals, the money and the machine. Yet she was as exciting as dry white toast.

The DNC is actually supposed to be built from the local parties though the state and to the national representative levels but we know that isn't what happens. The rules and the superdelegate system favors those in power. To ever have a fair nominating system the Superdelegates should never be allowed to declare until after the primaires. That would be a good place to begin. If the system can be trusted then we need to begin electing state committee men and women at the local level who would create a base to elect state reps to the DNC. I can write about how that happens if anyone is interested but I'll just say that by the rules the move has to be made in 2018 by electing progressive PCO, PPO's. It would be too late in 2020.

Thanks for having me.

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I hope you'll like it here. Smaller place, smart people, lots of heterodox opinions. Most of us are very over the Democratic Party, and you'll find no small number of real actual leftists here. Not like those smug posers at That Other Place (TOP for short).

I'm here occasionally, but am real busy with real life stuff these days. You'll see some familiar names. Enjoy!

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riverlover's picture

I think that many of us nominally D's are no longer D's, just treading water now and debating a proper forward political response. No consensus, as you may have noticed.

Even in response to danger, the exception(?) being one's city being bombed, will people school like fish. Many fish do not join forces and school even then. Different POVs for all; that is tolerated or welcomed here.

Enjoy the water!

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

No HRs, no TOs, non-partisan, no fealty oaths to people or party, anonymous tips, no rules except don't be a dick.

Hillary had the fact, the proposals, the money and the machine.

But they were all the wrong ones.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

dervish's picture

And much appreciated. I especially liked the last paragraph.

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"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."

[deleted]

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

But the last time (before Bernie) a Democratic presidential candidate tried to unite them and had a reasonable chance at the Presidency, it was Bobby Kennedy.

Obama pretended to, but it was all hooey.

Bernie, I think, authentically wished to united those two movements for justice, and could have. They didn't need to assassinate him, because they've improved their election fraud technology and salted our electoral system with their corrupt play-for-pay officials.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Alas, the DINOs have not learned their lesson. Just look at the appointment of Shumer and others.
The Dems will not change as long as Trump continues his hiddeous choices in administration and probable
policies. Come the next election we will again be be given a choice between evils, because who else can we vote for?
I figure an ever increasing number of Americans will not vote at all and then be blamed for the election of more
Trumpettes.
Democratic Party give us a real choice, damn you!

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great piece. thx for the hard work you put into it.

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riverlover's picture

I as yet have not regained my privilege to rec comments. Since April. I can't remember which line I crossed.

Whatever, there are many folks (not all new handles) that have yet to suss out that they are in a rut, in a field far away from civilization that I would want to live in.

I just left a message to MOT people, my hangout there. A farewell, keep in touch message and did a final logoff from DK.

Peace and love.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Phoebe Loosinhouse's picture

The only time I see the Little People registering any successes in fending off their impending serfdom is when they stay relentlessly issues oriented and forget about the identities at the top.

Best examples - President Obama was for:
entitlement reform and set up Simpson Bowles, which failed,
was for chained CPI as a benefit reduction for SS which failed,
was for the TPP with it's multiple issues which failed, and not just for Him, for Hillary as well

The problem for TPTB in all these situations is that the peeps kept their eyes open and focused and used sites like Daily Kos, which does have a large readership, to inform and educate each other. This enlightenment was not coming from the top or on the Front Page who after all are for the most part Party promoters, it was coming from the community. That was a successful game plan and I think it's one that should be continued in the future.

These anti-propaganda laws being passed - who even knows what's in them? I'm not seeing much if any reporting on details. This is what happens when the Peeps are too focused on sniping at each other - crap passes before we even have any chance to reflect, inform, educate, comment, and then shame if necessary our PTB by letting them know that we know they are shafting us and we're taking names and have long memories. That's about the only weapon in our arsenal.

I haven't posted at TOP since my last diary which was a call-out on the failed besmirching plan of "Bernie Bros". I tried to warn them that stigmatizing VOTERS was the stupidest damn thing I had ever seen a pol or party do in my lifetime:

This is a new angle — don’t attack the leader of a movement or their issues, but characterize and stigmatize the followers or rank and file as characters that you wouldn’t want to be associated with. We’ve seen this from the very earliest days in a more benign form- Bernie “appealed” to white male voters — the racism, sexism and misogyny were just hinted at, but the subliminal messaging is clear.

But now it’s all in the open, no holds barred with pleas and/or demands from Democrats for Bernie to bring all his violent, liberal, supporters to heel. This is just beyond the pale and the Democrats have pushed a very dangerous envelope.

It’s one thing for liberal progressive Democrats to be disappointed and/or disillusioned. We’re used to that. It’s an entirely different thing to be DISGUSTED to your core by the collective actions of your current and very possibly former party. The Democrats and the DNC and all the people going down this very wrong-headed path of stigmatizing Bernie voters are doing the most effective things they could possibly do if they want to permanently alienate a LARGE portion of the Democratic Party who will very possibly sit out the election, or write-in a vote or vote a protest Third Party vote for the Greens. And the person to blame will not be Bernie Sanders. It will be all TPTB within the Party who will have finally achieved their greatest dream:

Drive out all those annoying liberal, bleeding heart, working class, poor, FDR Democrats once and for all.

That Diary was called Derailing Bernie by Stigmatizing His Voters on May 18th. It had 1226 comments and 474 recs. After getting a lifetime dosage of vitriol I signed out after posting it and have not logged in to write or comment since.

Of course, it didn't matter and they enlarged and expanded on Bernie Bros as they followed the same game plan with Trump and typing his voters as "deplorables". Any campaign that insanely out of touch deserves to lose, end of story and they did.

While I have no desire to rub elbows with people who are committed to defending their personal icon to the exclusion of policy, I do foresee a day when it might be good to go back into the trenches over at TOP and fight against the horrific policies that are going to be jammed down our throats. It's for that reason that I have avoided going over there at all for commenting or writing, because it is simply pointless while I'm With Her Mourning is still the focus along with overturning the election with the Electoral College (!) and while all the New McCarthyism of accusing everyone of being a Russian propagandist is in full bloom. As much as they want to use us in the sense of page views, web ranking, and being good little Democratic soldiers, we should use them to give eyeballs to important issues.

I'm not saying to post there instead of here, I'm saying in some cases it makes sense to do both, while if I had to pick one over the other, I would post here, as I have and do. A non-partisan site like this one, is IMO a far better place for people to write think and discuss without the Party apparatus and group think acting as censors, both internal and external. I enjoy writing and discussing here far more than I ever did there, where you always had to be alert for the sniper fire from people who were just plain unpleasant with a lot of personal axes to grind. I just don't have the patience for that anymore, life is too short.

Ideally, what I wish would happen is that we all build up this site with interesting content and even better commentary and that OTHER sites linking to C99% would become the norm rather than the reverse.

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" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "

Phoebe Loosinhouse's picture

sorry I didn't start with that in my comment above. I think it's a given with me and many others that reading anything you write whether essay or comment, will be well-rewarded.

Naturally, I had to go over and take a look at your reception and it was pretty much what I would ave expected - joy at your return by those that know and respect you and clueless vituperation by those that don't. When I have gone back to lurk and read there, if anything, I think the level of discourse has gotten even worse, if that's possible, with a lot of newer commenters whose names I'm not familiar with who show absolutely no restraint whatsoever in hurling the personal insults and accusations. How is an opinion website going to continue to exist if anyone with an alternate viewpoint is now labeled as either a tool of Russian propagandists or an actual Russian propagandist themselves, as happened to you? Wow.

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" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "

IF it was the old dailykos, posting both places would have some value. Now it is a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party, and I believe bobswern when he says Markos is paid to make sure nothing gets in the way of that

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

I left after the PA primary and I'm not going back.

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DesertRose's picture

I left after the AZ primary. I was a precinct committeman for several years and for almost 40 yrs, I knocked on doors for Dems. The party left me.

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Azazello's picture

Our little group is still doing meet-ups but we're organizing by email now instead of a DKos group. Message me here with your email if you're interested. It's mostly just the Central Committee now, i.e. those of us who went to Phoenix for Netroots.
Remember when Markos and all paid staff boycotted NN15 because "Arizona is a racist state"? I'm thinking that the real reason for the boycott was that he was already in the tank for Her Heinous by July of 2015 and wanted nothing to do with Bernie. I saw an interview with Jane Sanders where she says that Bernie's rally in Phoenix that summer was when they first realized that his candidacy had potential. If only ...

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We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.

Pluto's Republic's picture

I cannot say all the ways it changed or turned the future, but a great many things were transformed. On a small scale, it was the launch of BLM, but it was also the launch of the "Outsider" in the US, not to be confused with the launch of a primary challenger,

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
DesertRose's picture

Good to see you. Yes, I'll message you my email. You're probably right about Kos. He's absolutely pathetic and he blew his chance to be a game changer in politics.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

greetings from a Floridian who understands what it's like to face election fraud and voter suppression.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

kharma's picture

Obviously well thought out and meticulously crafted it will be referred back to many times in the future. I stepped foot in there a few minutes ago to show some love and noticed you are already timed out. Pretty much done with them and their party can no longer count on me to blindly follow them. TOP and the Democratic party both have their own swamps that need a serious draining.

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

DesertRose's picture

Serious question. Is it an algorithm, or a person actually does this?

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Basically, it means you aren't allowed to diary, comment, or rate for a prescribed time period. It can be short and only involve an acknowledgment of your "bad behavior", or it can be 30 days or more. It is like being sat in a corner.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Deja's picture

Algorithm if a comment/diary receives enough flags, or admin can do it based on a complaint at the Helpdesk (or if they happen to see the horrid policy violation themselves, without receiving a complaint).

Either way, it's Orange State's way of making sure that only propaganda gets to see the light of day. Good riddance to them, and theirs, imo.

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gulfgal98's picture

for reccing a diary that was flagged.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Deja's picture

At least the explanation for No Rate was plausible - before I realized it was to keep the Talking Points uprated, and the truth hidden 1984 style - if you uprate racism/sexism, etc., you temporarily lost your rating privileges.

Were you already NRd?

Ack, I hate that place, and feel like such a dupe for ever falling for some of the brainwashing. Ack!

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Lily O Lady's picture

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

lunachickie's picture

I think it's an algorithm which spits out comments to an admin for "approval".

I could be wrong. Once upon a time, I am pretty sure it was all manual, but once the trollfest kicked in and the latest iteration of DK was released (all around the time of the Ides of March), it was automated.

Stupid site, I can't even go over there anymore. It's just unreadable. I have no desire to even write a Told You So piece anymore, but that's okay, cuz Dallasdoc said it better than I ever could Smile

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kharma's picture

Timeout prevents you from doing anything a registered user can do including comment. It is the ultimate (short of banning) punishment. It can automatically kick in if you have a certain amount of hidden comments in a 24 hour period (3 I think). It can also be done by a moderator, which is most likely what happened.

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

Cassiodorus's picture

Diary still at the top of the Rec List, yet author in time out. They take credit for your authorship while at the same time telling you that neither you nor your message is wanted.

All no doubt at the direction of Markos "former CIA" Moulitsas.

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"there's something so especially sadistic about waving the flag of a country that you're actively destroying" -- Aaron Mate

Immigrant Punk's picture

i managed to log in and tip and rec your diary, over there. it took a while, some script related to "sponsored content by taboola" kept freezing the browser on my tablet, and i had to switch to the laptop.

access issues, you might say.

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elenacarlena's picture

and slow everything way down. You would think they'd do better than that in order to have more traffic. But no.

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

TheOtherMaven's picture

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

DesertRose's picture

Did Kos prevent you from commenting on your own diary?

I find ToP so juvenile now. Little original content, just rehashing and interpreting NYTimes articles. The comments are often sophomoric. Being away since March, shows me I've outgrown it..

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darkmatter's picture

is exactly the right word for that partisan sinkhole. Luckily, it's a big internet.

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Creosote.'s picture

Desert Rose. As with Dallasdoc I always looked for and was glad to read your posts there.
And what a great gathering this thread has brought together -- a river of water protectors.

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whyvee's picture

Dallasdoc,
Yeah, you... "Sanity Claus" have arrived just in time for the holidays!
I do not think I have the stomach yet to go back to TOP to see what happens to your diary, but I will be there in spirit.

Thank you for your eloquence; I have always depended on it...here and Dkos. Every single point you made is one I have been saying for sometime to myself and others. I am a POC that, for the first time ever, did not vote in the general election this year. Hubby and I are trying to find an escape plan from this country next year; we do not want to spend our final years on this earth in the "rotting carcass" that was once America- a rotting that has been exacerbated by the Bush years, the Obama years, and now what, inevitably, will be the Trump train wreck. I am so thankful to not have children and grandchildren to worry about, and I am sad for those that do. I am just too damn old now to fight the fight anymore. But, I still hope that there are young people out there that will be able to turn this country around. I suspect it will take torches and pitchforks in the streets....

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To look around for a bolt hole. French politics is no picnic either, though, so I'm keeping an eye on that. I feel fortunate to have the means to consider such an option, and it would be stupid not to at least check it out.

Thank you for the very kind words. It's an honor to be your ally.

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whyvee's picture

to update earlier discussions.
Cheers...

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Bollox Ref's picture

Will they be able to cope with the mess over there as they soil themselves with outrage?

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Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.

PriceRip's picture

· · · last best chance for the Democratic party to remember its New Deal, working class identity

          The new deal was a "correction" in the system that was needed because of the excesses of the industrialized NorthEast and the robber barons of the previous hundred plus years.

          (really shitty economic conditions) 1929 - 1776 = 153 years, (really shitty economic conditions and global climate change) 2016 - 1776 = 240 years: it is about time to repeat the past and institute a new kind of new deal or bend over and kiss our collective asses goodbye. If we opt to actually do something we need to have real technically savvy non-political regulators actually regulating economic and industrial activities (this is not debatable, this is not negotiable, this is a necessity) if we are to dig ourselves out of our economic and environmental cesspit.

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darkmatter's picture

Now THAT was a breakup letter!

Thanks for that eloquent summation of all the hubris, cynicism, willful ignorance, and bad faith among the establishment Democrats both this year and stretching into decades past.

Forget Bernie or Bust. They were Hillary or Bust all along. They are sending every signal that they would rather lose with neoliberalism than win with progressivism.

The real tragedy for me is that the Greens did not get above the 5% threshold, so it's sort of like we have this huge ship taking on water, but a viable lifeboat doesn't seem to be ready....

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The response at TOP is telling. Sounds like a death knell to me. They can't admit their grave error in shoving Henry Fucking Kissinger's BFF down our throats - and bumping off Bernie's brilliant campaign in the process, robbing us all of the promise of a political revolution. They (the Party and their minions like dkos) gifted us President Trump and lack the common decency to admit it. Fuck them.

Thanks again, brother. You said it all very well...as usual.

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I hope you're doing well, and have been missing your wisdom and passion.

The post over there was deliberately provocative and aggressive. In choosing that tone, I wanted them to hear what so many disgusted Dems and independents think of their shitty Party and their tiresome condescension.

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Lily O Lady's picture

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

darkmatter's picture

Nice to see you here. I'm not sure it was a grave error, what the DNC and the establishment did to Bernie. I don't think it was stupidity or bad political judgment.

I think it was class warfare.

The establishment's first priority was to kneecap any sort of progressive insurgency. Only after that, Hillary as president. They would rather lose with Hillary than win with Bernie. In that sense, they won. They got their way. What the establishment Dems really want is not what the progressive base wants, and it seems to me their first order of business is to prevent an organized left alternative from emerging. Their incompetence is deliberate and a profitable business model for them.

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I'm sure you're on to something here.

Maybe all those well-intentioned women and men who believed in and worked for the campaign of Hillary Clinton will now realize they've been nailed by their Wall Street masters once again.

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It was an error ONLY from the POV of actual progressives. I sometimes forget that actual progressives are the enemy to the establishment dems...and vice versa. At this point, I am more with Cornel West than I am with Bernie on the question of whether or not the party can be saved. I'm thinking NOT.

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[deleted]

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gulfgal98's picture

I cannot think of anything more elite than elitist scolds who continue to defend neoliberal corruption and blame voters for not supporting the candidate who is the poster child for neoliberal corruption. People were expected to support said candidate because it was "her turn" and we should all be "with her." It was sheer arrogance on the part of the Clinton campaign to tie its major theme to electing the first woman President when nearly half of the richest nation the world has ever known is living in poverty or near poverty. The Democrats under Obama failed to help the people of this country when they needed it most and Clinton promised more of the same.

In July 2014, Markos declared she would be the nominee. There was no consensus, unless it was among the donor class. Somehow the peons did not fall in line with the Democrats' latest version of identity politics. Not every one was "with her." In the end, identity politics does not carry as much weight when half of the country is worried about putting food on the table, having safe drinking water, having real health care, and having affordable and safe shelter.

I see this essay not just about the Democratic party, but how our government has been failing the people. The failure of those in charge to look into the mirror and honestly assess what went wrong and how we can do better will continue to lead to more and more attempts by the people to find a different way. Unfortunately, the alternative offered in 2016 will not prove to be any better, and may be worse. But they cannot blame the people for looking elsewhere after they themselves failed the people.

Thanks for this great essay and analysis.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

LOTE politics has only produced more evil over time. The Democrats have gotten away with LOTE using fear and extortion threats. It worked for a long time, but that was only because they could maintain a plausible claim of being "lesser."

That plausibility is long gone, after 8 years of Obama followed by HRC. The only way out of the trap they set for us is to kill off one of the evils and replace it with a choice for good. It's long past time to do that, and I only regret that I was so slow to realize it.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

spent twenty-five years training the American public to engage in LOTE politics, and it ended up biting them in the ass.

It didn't occur to them that Hillary might look like the greater evil to a lot of people.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

This November's election result was also significantly a consequence of Obama voters sitting out the choice between Trump and Clinton. Trump got nearly 63 million votes, whereas Obama had nearly 66 million in 2012.

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"there's something so especially sadistic about waving the flag of a country that you're actively destroying" -- Aaron Mate

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

At the end of the day, Trump had 58% unfavorable rating on Election Day, and Hillary had 60%.

So I suppose it's a combination of the people who think they're both equally evil, with the people who unexpectedly decided that Hillary was the greater evil.

For instance, Hillary lost women without a college education. They voted for Trump.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

For an incoming president.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

It was an unpopularity contest. Unprecedented in our history.

Probably because, though we were a corrupt and racist republic, we were still, to some extent, a republic.
Now we're not. So the most unpopular people get to be president, because they're the ones who are the most beloved of the elite.

At least the one who got in had some people who liked him. Poor schmoes.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

ZimInSeattle's picture

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"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK | "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine." - G. B. Shaw Bernie/Tulsi 2020

that would be mean I'd have to go dailykos and ...

YAWN ... there have been enough comments in this diary to remind me that the ONLY value that place has for me is checking in what all the DLC mouth breathers are up to ... and ...

YAWN, they should just keep electing their Schumers & Pelosis & sending hillary to parties with billionaires.

They're not needed right now, other than as living breathing examples of policies and politics which are a waste of my time.

rmm.

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But then I sigh; and, with a piece of scripture,
Tell them that God bids us do good for evil:
And thus I clothe my naked villany
With old odd ends stolen out of holy writ;

Read an article I failed to bookmark on the lead up to revolutions that did bring about change. The key sequence was a rising dissatisfaction in the general public with their lot. Either an established leader or a new one promised change. When it didn't happen, the people came out in the streets (sometimes with pitch forks).

Since Donald is going to renege on his promises to people who have no problem with violence, it most likely will be a lesson in how much the PTB are prepared to put it down. Standing Rock has been a lesson we should expect to see repeated. Protesters will need to be prepared for dogs, water and rubber bullets to LRADs.

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pswaterspirit's picture

I see -- Very clear and concise essay of the problems. I went over and had a bit of fun in the comments.

Here is what I see coming. Looks like the press is setting up the evil empire (Trump) vs the Sir Galahad (Bernie) who is fighting for the people. I have no desire to know what BS Trump will bring on us. I'm sure it won't be pretty.

But if Bernie gets his licks in the winds of change will probably blow the dead husk of neoliberalisim into oblivion. Bernie may yet go down in history as the person who saved the country from itself. Guess we have to stay tuned and find out.

Loved that last paragraph, gave me a great laugh.

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The value of TOP or Vox or HuffPo is to give their front pages a glimpse to see what stupid shit the mainstream media is spewing on any given day so as to be prepared to argue that it is bullshit if anyone in my personal life starts a conversation about said bullshit. Basically, to prepare for the onslaught, not get blindsided.
It is similar to sending scouts to see where enemy troops are, and sizing up their weapons.
TOP will not improve. The Democratic Party will not improve.
We need a vibrant 3rd/4th/5th party and a whole new approach to elect individuals to represent the 99%. What I know about organizing would not fill up a thimble. I am of no use in that endeavor.
I am noticing a lot of space here is being devoted to TOP and Democratic Party bitching. I do not think it is the new direction of this site. I believe it is more an outpouring of individuals reacting to disappointments, betrayals, and loss of party identity. It is still difficult for me to identify as an independent after having been a dedicated yellow dog Dem for 60 damn years.
Being gathered with those of like minds is a comfort zone, until being of like mind is demanded.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

But at this point I don't see any sign of What's Next. There's a lot of amorphous and disjointed activity, like ants scrambling after you kick over their hill. The nucleus of an effective organization is still invisible to me.

I hope to learn more here and at a few other places I read when I get a chance. Party politics isn't going to be the answer, not now and probably not for a while. I think movement politics will get stronger when Trump takes over, and coalitions among the movements may be the most effective way forward. We'll see.

Thank you for reading and commenting. It's always a pleasure to run into you.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

before anything could coalesce. Mainly because the old techniques we've brought forward from the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s won't work as well in an oligarchy as they did in a corrupt republic trending toward oligarchy.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

I am not seeing any burgeoning coalition, either. Maybe Trump will unite us. Maybe fighting a common enemy will bring the many sub-groups of progressives together.
People still look at the struggle as left and right, not an up and down class struggle.
It is hard for people to admit or identify as "Poor". There is just no proud rallying cry to be had in calling all poor and struggling people to come out of the shadows and march. People would rather live on credit and disguise their poverty than to admit they are in poverty. They lie to their kids about it. They lie to their church about it. They lie to themselves about it.
And these are the very people a revolution must rally.
I have struggled financially all my life. In very large part, I have my government to thank for it. Let me be an out and proud Poor!

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Millions were raised in a short time to support Standing Rock and I think a lot of Jill's 7 million in recount money came from voters angry at our rigged voting machines. Bernie raised hundreds of millions at 27 a pop. Our most fearsome weapon could be money.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

riverlover's picture

If it could be handled through a 501(c)3, then it could be an additional FU to TPTB.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

I think the virtue of the money that went to Bernie, Jill's recount, and Standing Rock is that it was spontaneous and decentralized. I think that's the spirit we need to capture to be effective. A structured organization could hinder that, I think. I'm thinking more along the lines of websites that enable people to spontaneously organize to fight an outrage.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

Greyhound's picture

The person I wrote or replied to, and DallasDoc.

I stumbled onto the Diary on my bi-weekly survey of how the psychosis is progressing over there, through a GBCW Diary put up by Ion in response to DD's timeout, and potential BOJO.

DallasDoc. Have you copied your work, yet?

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I reposted my two most recent diaries from over there to this site, and the others are mostly outdated since I never wrote very many anyway. Most of my work was in the comments, and those are the definition of an evanescent medium.

I saw Ion's diary, and was amused that Armando of all people is criticizing me for his most flagrant vices. Projection is one of his strengths.

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Greyhound's picture

where we can read this kind of perspective. I think C99 is going to get much larger as more people are chased away from the commercially compromised sites around the web.

People pretty much all say that free speech is good. We'll see.

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