Open Thread: What's the Message, Mr. Gardiner?

An open thread dedicated to discussing books, movies, and tv shows we love. And occasionally some politics.

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I've been thinking a lot lately about Star Wars. I think it's going to take two Open Threads to get through all my feelings about Star Wars, because the prequels are kind of their own banquet of horrors (I'll do them next week).

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHfLyMAHrQE]

I do love this movie, and the fondness it generated in my nine-year-old heart for George Lucas' galaxy far far away endures even after a lot of miles of bad road for both me and the franchise. I don't love it as much as Gene Roddenbery's galactic civilization, but it will always have a place in my heart, and I will have the first two movies basically memorized until the day I die.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvJDItC6tE0&index=3&list=RDP9_KIKwMN1w]

But.

As all Star Wars fans know, George Lucas severely disappointed them, as well as doing damage to his own narrative, from roughly 1983 to 2005. His ability to keep fans coming back and paying money to watch his shows despite being disappointed for twenty-two years is outdone in American culture only by the Democratic party, which has now disappointed its fans, and done damage to its own narrative, from roughly 1972 to 2016. Even Vincent Kennedy McMahon has not so consistently disappointed the fans of the World Wrestling Federation, and that's saying a lot.

By the way, this is what I'd like to do to the Democratic party:
"Turn her around!"

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9_KIKwMN1w]

Ah, that was cathartic. Now where was I? Oh, yes, what Lucas did to his franchise. Rather than tormenting all of you with analysis (and clips) from all the prequels, I want to focus this week on the end of the story (as far as Lucas is concerned) Return of the Jedi. Because the fact is, even if Lucas had done stupendously well in making an engaging, inspiring story in the prequels, having the climax of your story massively suck is not something that can be fixed. Even J J Abrams can only make reasonably good movies in this universe, not great ones (though I hope Rogue 1 proves me wrong), because the pivotal point of the narrative--the movie where Anakin Skywalker is redeemed and the Empire falls--is, well, crap.

Lucas spends the first half hour of the movie with an opening as tone-deaf as a Hillary Clinton campaign slogan ("I'm With Her" with an arrow horribly combined the 80s t-shirt "I'm With Stupid" with an attempt to get into the VIP area by saying you're best friends with America Ferrera. Really bad.)

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Lucas basically takes everything the fans love about his franchise and takes a giant dump all over it. First, of course, there's Leia. While not the first, second, or third favorite character in A New Hope (I'd say that would be Chewie, Han, and Vader--or, possibly, Chewie, Han, and the Falcon, if you want to include semi-sentient objects), Leia was the first spunky princess. This is more important than you might think if you didn't grow up female in the 70s. More than a decade before Disney's Belle, she was an oasis in a desert for a young girl growing up, whose other choices for strong role models were Rizzo, Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman, and the short-haired Charlie's Angel. Oh, and Uhura. You'll note that Nichelle Nichols provided the only other really cool option since Rizzo is embattled and despised by her society, Wonder Woman has a really goofy transparent jet and truth lasso which seriously diminish her coolness, and Kate Smith's character is, um, working for a goddamned invisible male millionaire.

So Leia was important to me. At the age of what, sixteen, seventeen? she was already a diplomat and a senator. She was also a freaking freedom fighter undercover. She smuggled secret plans to defeat tyrants. She withstood torture, and even under the pressure of watching her beloved home planet threatened with death, refuses to betray the Rebellion (one of my favorite moments is when they figure out she tricked them. Ha!) Then, in The Empire Strikes Back, she actually saves the day by saving Luke's life, revealing that she has Jedi powers!

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5-hq-h_4Q]

Sorry. It still gives me chills.

So what does Lucas do in the first few minutes of Return of the Jedi? He makes Leia's rescue attempt of Han fail and puts her in what is now known as a "slave Leia costume." In a metal bikini and skirt, chained to what looks like a cross between a giant talking penis and a sandworm from Dune, the Jedi Knight Leia Organa disappears and never returns in the entire goddamned fucking franchise. So does the Leia capable of intrigue and winning a fight (the fact that she's able to get the drop on an ordinary Storm Trooper later doesn't make up for it.) It's as if Lucas was saying, loudly, "Sorry girls. This is the boys' clubhouse. You have cooties."

But sexism isn't where it ends.

He also screws up Han Solo. Now, of course, after being frozen in carbonite, none of us would be at our best. But no Star Wars fan really wants to see Han staggering around completely helpless because he's temporarily blind and weak. What makes this much, much worse is how it relates to Boba Fett, the second most beloved villain in the Star Wars universe. Han's feud with Boba is intense and wonderful, two guys on the fringes of the law dueling with each other as only rogues can, equal in intelligence and guile. And how does it end? Accidentally:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwC_o_fcW1s]

Wow. Way to show your contempt for both Boba Fett and Han, and not incidentally, your fans. Worst. Booking. Ever.

Then there's Luke. Is it me, or does Luke come off as an arrogant, annoying asshole in that opening sequence?

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSVCvC-jU68]

It's really late at night as I'm writing this, and I feel myself shrinking from dealing with the Ewoks. A lot of people disagree with me on this one, but at the age of 15, when I was first disappointed by this movie, I found the portrayal of the Ewoks amazingly condescending toward indigenous people, enough so that I was uncomfortable. I mean, look at it. You have these pre-industrial people living in what looks like an Amazonian rain forest, waving little spears, practicing cannibalism and believing C3PO is a god (because why? he looks like he's made out of gold? It's never clear). And what are they, when it comes down to it? Teddy bears. I get this strong feeling we're supposed to find them cutesy and funny with their quaint little primitive ways.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmdEg3T8IOM]

I've rarely found anybody else who thinks this is racist, but my fifteen-year-old self did, and Lucas' later portrayal of the Gungans made me suspect she was right. But that's a story for another time. And again, not only was it racist, it was really bad storytelling--sort of like the opposite of cool.

I could go on and talk about how lame it is that the big plot twist is that the Death Star Mark II is actually ready to shoot something. I could talk about how freaking weird it is that Leia accepts the notion that Vader was her father so easily (for God's sakes, he tortured her! But who cares about girlie feelings, am I right?) I could talk about how it's a really good thing that Lucas went back and redid the ending when he re-released the DVDs, so at least we saw celebrations of the Empire's Fall on multiple planets instead of, as my boyfriend puts it, ending with Leia motioning Luke away from his father's pyre in an effort to get him to join in the Ewok yub-yub song:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np6vAuS0KNs]

But it's very very late.

Anyone want to defend Star Wars? Or share some of your own favorite least favorite moments (heh)?
Or share some movies that almost made it to good but ended up falling flat.

Put in your two cents!

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riverlover's picture

I just finished Paul Tremblay's A Head Full of Ghosts. Very strange, I will not tell you anything other than there is an attempted exorcism in it. He writes well from the minds of teen and tweens. I spent many evenings reading this, disturbing as hell.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Detroit is at 60 and 70 degrees with a forecast of snow on Sunday. I understand that global warming is bad - really I do, but it sure feels good coming if you live in Michigan.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

riverlover's picture

but yes, snow on Sunday and Monday is forecast here. Mad dash to relocate leaves, still wet from last night.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Grandkids that while they toil in the banana plantation in north Siberia.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

My #1 grandson is in Marrakech at the World Climate Summit listening to Ban Ki Moon as I type. He just left a close door session by John Kerry. We are all fully aware of the downsides of global warming.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

I was 29 when my first kid was born. My oldest grandkid is only 12. I turn 60 in a couple weeks.
We essentially had no winter last year in south Ks. In Feb. We had solid weeks in the 70s and one day nudging 80.1 for a short time. Trees would bud, only to lose them, bud again only to lose again.
I really feel sorry for the world my grands are going to have to live in.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

My grandson is 22, will be 23 in January.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Lookout's picture

watching the water protectors face what looks like star ship storm troopers.

Joseph Campbell refers to the series in his conversation with Moyers (and Lucas) in the Power of the Myth.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0296362/

I don't know if the interviews are still available, but they were sure worth the watch. I have the book.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Lookout's picture

The episode about Star wars with Campbell (about an hour)

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpiEk42_O_Q]

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

jiordan's picture

I was a bit older, the original Star Wars trilogy bracketed my teenage years, the first at 13, the last at 19, so naturally I had a huge crush first on Luke, then Han (got older, got wiser).

I went with my old high school friend to see the new JJ Abrams film--the same friend who watched Star Wars with me some 20 times the summer it was released--and we absolutely loved it. It was everything we, being nostalgic about our early teens, wanted it to be. But I can't say it was a great film. It was a terrific homage to the original trilogy and gave us old timers what we wanted, but my hope now is that Rogue 1 is a far better film and that now, having covered all the original material, the expanded universe comes into play full force (no pun intended) for any future films. JJ allowed the whole franchise to have potential again--something I though Lucas had stamped out for good--so we'll see where it goes.

However, I won't be hanging on hoping for improvement if the next one sucks. I'll ditch it and never look back. Took me about 20 years too long to do that with the Democratic Party.

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detroitmechworks's picture

It was like Star Wars, with all the bad crap yanked out.

Unfortunately they stuck in some stuff that annoyed the hell out of me. (Whedon's obsession with emotionally damaged superpowered teen girls was in full flower) Overall though, it was a far superior version, IMHO.

What drives me INSANE was that there was YEARS of effective market research into what fans of star wars actually wanted. Bear with me here. In 1989 - 1995 West End Games did a tabletop RPG which was INSANELY popular. Fans flocked to it, and there were quite a few long running campaigns for the fans of the series. However, keep in mind that it also served as a try out for some of the more esoteric ideas that Lucas would never touch with a 20 foot pole. He later gave the license to Hasbro, because they were VERY willing to toe the line with what Lucasfilm wanted, as opposed to WEG which was first and foremost a rather experimental company. (They published PARANOIA, for crying out loud, a game about an Orwellian society where everybody is a traitor and accusing others of being a traitor.)

SO what were the most popular books?
1: Galaxy Guide 6: Tramp Freighters. (A book that completely turned the paradigm of being Rebels against the Empire on its ear, and instead focused on the Han Solo experience. It focused on ships, backwaters and the stuff Lucas RACED past on his way to the big glamorous stuff.)
2. The Darkstryder Campaign. (A campaign where the heroes are stuck in a broken down Corellian Corvette and sent off to chase down an Imperial Governor who escaped and is rumored to have a secret base. The plot gets MUCH thicker, with references to the other in-universe established canon. Near the end it goes downhill, (Lucasfilm interference showing) but overall a very SOLID story that used Jedi and the Force in a very dark and disturbing way, reflecting on the nature of power itself.)

The Expanded Universe was also pretty decent, at least until the demand to tie them into the new movies was instilled.

So what did Lucas focus on? What would sell Toys! The cynicism and abandonment of the hard core fans drove many away. To this day I still haven't bothered seeing the last two movies, and probably won't.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

TheOtherMaven's picture

My sense is that it went off the rails with The Empire Strikes Back. The first episode (now "Episode IV", yarite) was very purely Jungian - from Empire onwards it was more and more Freudian. This was not an improvement.

The first person whose character got trashed wasn't Leia or Han or Luke - it was Ben Kenobi. He was retroactively re-characterized as a bald-faced liar and manipulator, and everything that stunk about subsequent films was, one way or another, his fault.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

detroitmechworks's picture

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEw5H_LSoQ]

Ok, SLIGHT exaggeration there, but he was very aware that the films were not quite what he had expected when he signed up for it.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

TheOtherMaven's picture

He'd been trying to get his character killed off since the second movie. Finally he got his way. Shok

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Damnit Janet's picture

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"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison

reflectionsv37's picture

that was released on the torrent sites in the past few days and that I downloaded last night. We all know the story of Snowden, from a legal perspective, but the movie goes beyond the legal ramifications of his actions and shows a personal side of what Edward Snowden went through, and what he is still going through today.

I came away from the movie with even more respect for the man than I had in the past. He truly gave up everything in his life to disclose to the American public, and the world how their every move is being watched and tracked by the NSA and other US government agencies. We owe a debt of gratitude to Mr. Snowden. He gave up everything to expose the criminal wrongdoings of our government. I sincerely hope history records him as a true American hero, a title he has most definitely earned.

In case I didn't mention it, I really enjoyed the movie!

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“Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.”
George W. Bush

Pluto's Republic's picture

I have always been profoundly moved by the sacrifice he made. He was always mindful of what he gave up. He was close to his family, and his country. I believe most of the world regards him as a hero. He changed the world in many ways that are still unfolding.

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so much more with Uhura. They kept her as basically Receptionist to the Stars. Any role she actually had significance was as a vamp or seductress. Yeoman Rand, same thing.
I think Roddenberry felt good about putting women into our society...as long as they knew their place.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

detroitmechworks's picture

Roddenberry wanted the 2nd in command of the Enterprise to be "Number 2" who would have been played by the woman who played Yeoman Rand.

Studio nixed it.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Damnit Janet's picture

It's about how a threat against the young princess's life requires that the PM f&ck a living pig live on international broadcasts.

Which is awful right? The awful part wasn't the demand.

It was the reaction by the people. They watched. The world stopped and watched.

Most agreed it was disgusting and horrible, "what it the world coming to?". Some even made bets and jokes.

But everyone watched. Which I think says more about humans than the heinous demand and threat.

The series is kinda like Twilight Zone but with some serious teeth.

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"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison

Made me not sure if I wanted to watch others.

(Out take: PM pulls his wife aside and says the pig was better)

*ducks*

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

I see Leia - jedi > slave as a different insult, more to the audience than the character. t's a caricature of an 11 year o;d boy's sexual fantasies. And the Ewoks - the idea that the Empire can be defeated by teddy bears? Ehat'ssayinh that if you believe this you must be a 5 year old.
But I was not a young woman and I thought that Buffy was all about teenage outcast empowerment, I thought that Buffy's being female was a highlighting of the point rather than a point of its own.

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On to Biden since 1973

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

but I'm going into Tosche station to pick up some power converters.

Truth to tell, I was far more excited about Red Dwarf coming back with new episodes than JJ's lensflaring retread.

But let's cut to the chase and address the eternal Star Wars question.

IV or V: which is better?

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

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0 users have voted.

The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

You can fool around with your friends when your chores are done. Smile

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

enhydra lutris's picture

them. At my age they seemed oddly formulaic but with tons of odd species and rockets and force-fields and such. Something Arthurian legend + High Plains Drifter + Yojimbo meets various spy & whodumit classics.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

mimi's picture

prize for literature. He wrote a letter to the committeeto saying he doesn't come to the ceremony. Very sympathico. Some people may think about the company they keep among the nobel prize winners. Or may be, I am just a bad, bad person.

So, do we have a revolution yet? Kinda out off the loop, here.

Have a good day.

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