60 Minutes Election Focus Group Goes Foobar
Submitted by Citizen Of Earth on Mon, 11/07/2016 - 6:19am
And now for these public service messages.
If you want a laugh, go watch the Election Focus Group they ran on 60 Minutes last night. Frank Luntz said he has been doing these for 30 years and has never seen anywhere near this level of anger and disillusionment.
Turns out most people don't like either candidate and man are they pissssssssssed. 
And as pissed as all these people are, they don't seem to know that considering a third party is an option.
Transcript:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-american-voters-on-trump-clinton/
And now for these public service messages.
Comments
A victory for Sanders would be their defeat.
Much better to lose with Clinton.
This is important!
It was my main take from this too. And yet the discussion and analysis of what happened in the focus group was not about how badly shit upon most Americans are, but how badly they disagreed among themselves. CBS did a terrible disservice in that regard instead of focusing upon why people are pissed, they basically took to victim blaming.
I actually saw this segment as being presented as Americans hating one another and unable to talk with one another. That is the wrong conclusion. Americans hate what has been forced upon them and because people like Frankie Luntz and CBS continue to push these memes that divide the people against one another, the problem festers and grows.
People are pissed as hell and maybe they have the wrong villains identified, but they are pissed. It should be up to the media to help the people identify who is responsible and why. Instead the media is basically playing games with real people's lives by promoting these false memes.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
The Media as left the station.
So how do we coalesce the UNhappies to see a way out of this after tomorrow?
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
We are united on a whole bunch of stuff
See the Progressive Change Institute's poll of likely 2016 voter. It reads like Bernies and Jill's platform.
We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg
No one could find anything positive to say
or perhaps someone said what I would have but CNN didn't air it: The good thing about this election cycle is that the blatant dishonesty of the major media outlets has been made obvious to all.
What's the benefit for them
In pushing the dangerous populace meme? I'm not seeing an angle here. The preemptive use of some form of martial law without of course calling it that?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
That's one use of the meme.
The other use is a scapegoating function: the condition of the nation is the fault of the divisive people, not the powerful.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
A third use: if the population believes it's divided
it's less likely to unite against you.
Meanwhile, of course, you can wring your consultant hands and bemoan the lack of unity and civility.
Barbarians, all those little people who make less than a million a year.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
He's also pushing the "we need to agree on facts" thing
Obama was on about that recently too. It's started popping up everywhere. I'm expecting a big push for agreement on oligarch friendly "fact checking" after this election.
Snopes
Snopes is already in place and serving that function as an "independent and non-partisan" source.
Which is as big a load of bull as anything they claim to debunk.
“Snopes” was built up as a “brand” with “mindshare,” just like any other. A mental image was created and implanted through marketing, that is, propaganda.
Even if there’s no obvious profit motive behind a brand and its marketing — it’s still propaganda.
That has already happened. Two examples of politfact's bs are
in this post: http://caucus99percent.com/comment/203315#comment-203315
Nothing but smoke and mirrors and ignoring the only relevant issue.
Brilliant aperçu
And that is the signal that can't be stopped.
per your post of 5:41am way above.
Thanks!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Is everyone else getting Viagra ads with the video?
I find that ironic. As a nation, we are sure missing our mojo.
They actually did better with the story than I would have imagined. Clinton and her machine don't care that folks are justifiably angry because fuck 'em. Luntz at least described some of what makes folks out of their minds right now. He described well how people have lost all faith in the media. The participants got in that it's money in politics which is at the root of our collective distrust and disgust - that was a frank admission from the media to air that, surprised me that that did not end up on the edit room floor (to use an outdated metaphor).
Obviously, I think his analysis of what should be done about it is wrongheaded and inadequate, but he described the situation in a way which is recognizable to what I see. It surpassed my low expectations of current media.
'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member
Yes, the group comments were very insightful
for the most part. I agree, I'll give 60 Minutes credit for not cutting the well deserved jabs at the Media.
The young lady with the wire rim glasses surprized me though. I thought, oh she looks smart. Then she says , "We need to STOP taking away funding from the military to spend on social programs." (something to that effect)Opps I guess looks can deceive.
Edit: As pointed out by comments below, she did indeed say "We’re spending money in the wrong places. We should cut funding to the military and spend it on social programs." (confirmed in the transcript)
So never mind.
PS. I didn't get any Ads when I played the video. I use AdBlock Plus addon, so maybe that did the trick.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
I am missing the Plug-in to see it at all
And no suggestions at what FF plugin that is. Any ideas? Please don't let it be Flash...
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Yes, it's Flash
sadly.
If you have firefox, you can add/update it here.
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/plugincheck/?utm_source=firefox-browser&ut...
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
yes the evil Flash is required for the embed
since I refuse to use flash, and rightly assume that there is nothing worth seeing that requires it, I had to click on the transcript link and watch the video streamed from 60mins itself.
I need to re-watch.
I actually thought she said the opposite.
I did too. It's at 12:02, and
I did too. It's at 12:02, and speaking very rapidly she says (I think), "We're spending money in the wrong places. We should (garble) cut funding on the military and spend it on social programs." Almost like she started to say "We shouldN'T spend so much on the military" and when the words were already coming out decided to phrase it as a positive.
You keep using that word...
Sorry to restore your faith in humanity
but what she said (at 12:00) was, "We should cut the military budget in half and spend it on social projects."
On to Biden since 1973
"I find that ironic. As a nation, we are sure missing our mojo."
ROFL.....american exceptionalism, requires a little blue pill.*HELP*
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
I thought it much more a commentary
On their aging demographic. No one I know under the age of 30 still has a TV, and still watches cable news. For anyone looking to fill a vacuum as a voice for the people, it's there.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
FUBAR
Fouled up beyond all recognition. Or more contemporary. Fucked up beyond all recognition. Foobar? Is that a millennial computer derivative?
FUBAR --
... comes from a WWII (or maybe WWI?) acronym, shortened to enable easier transmission via telegraph (or maybe from a Napoleonic Wars, Civil War, or Peloponnessian Wars acronym, shortened to enable easier transmission via carrier pigeon) --
"Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition"
... from Wikipedia --
FUBAR
Not to be confused with Foobar.
For other uses, see FUBAR (disambiguation).
FUBAR (fucked up beyond all recognition/any repair/all reason), like SNAFU and SUSFU, dates from World War II. The Oxford English Dictionary lists Yank, the Army Weekly magazine (1944, 7 Jan. p. 8) as its earliest citation: "The FUBAR squadron. ‥ FUBAR? It means 'Fouled Up (sic) Beyond All Recognition."
Typically used in a military context; now increasingly applicable to the civilian/political world --
When Cicero had finished speaking, the people said “How well he spoke”.
When Demosthenes had finished speaking, the people said “Let us march”.
Guilty as charged.
In computer programming circles it is often spelled as FOObar. I don't know why. Old habits die hard.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
It seems you’re both right! (See _Jargon File_ reference below)
The Jargon File is one of the oldest and most authoritative sources on the whole phenomenon of computer hacker slang.
http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/
No, FUBAR and foobar were both in use from the very beginning
(according to the Jargon File) and in fact foobar may even have been coined first.
http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/F/foo.html
Yup. Exactly. And in many college programming classes
in the mid-70's, the canonical "variable names" used in example programs were "foo", "bar", and "baz", at least where I went to school... I remember getting a yuk out of that at the time- which was good, because there were very few yuks in my academic life.
Equally interesting is the etymology of the word "kluge", which has also been in use since the WWII era. It isn't recent- at least in printing circles, where is was pronounced klu-gee, after a spectacularly overcomplicated, dangerous, and fragile printing press feeder (designed as an add-on for the old Chandler and Price handfed letterpress) in the early 1900s. The Kluge feeder was the operational definition of FUBAR from the outset, prone to noisy self-destruction, flinging paper across the room, and snagging people as they walked by. But *that's* a conversation for another day...
i wouldn't bet the farm on that.
this sort of etymology is fraught with epistemological peril. note the extensive use of qualification: "likely", "may", "perhaps".
consider, for example, that
A. There is at least one claim that SNAFU and possibly FUBAR were already in common non-military use amongst telegraph operators before the war;
B. Regardless, SNAFU was certainly gaining currency by mid-1941;
C. OED cites first reference for FUBAR as 1944, three years after SNAFU's meteoric rise in American military slang.
folk etymology is always dubious -- often the obvious turns out to be wrong, as with "parting shot" -- but anybody who wants to claim that "foobar" is not a derivation of FUBAR, or that FUBAR was not coined out of nothing to mean exactly what it means, has a substantial burden of proof, particular given that almost all of the early postwar pioneers of programming were military, and in particular, Air Force and Navy. reference to an obscure German word is uncompelling, particularly since SNAFU without a doubt predates America's entry into the conflict, and quite apparently predates FUBAR's widespread use. similarly uncompelling is reference to the general popularity of "foo", which may help explain why the acronyms SNAFU and FUBAR caught people's fancy, without implying a path from "foobar" to "fubar". yeah, the jargon site suggests a lot, but it fails to produce any relevant citations, whereas there are at least 3 plausible (but differing) first or second-person accounts of FUBAR's direct origin as an acronym.
we cannot confidently assert that both "foobar" and "fubar" were in use from the very beginning, because nobody is providing us with the earliest code samples. this is not to say i would be surprised if the very first use of "foobar" as a variable in a programming language was contemporary with any corresponding use of "fubar", not least due to matters of propriety and elegance. the very first programmer to employ "foo" and "bar" as variable names may have done so whimsically, and changed "fu" to "foo" on the spot in order to satisfy a desire for symmetry (both variables now have 3 letters) as well as deniability. i would, however, be very surprised to learn that the very first use of "foobar", whether in programming or anywhere else, was not a deliberate modification of FUBAR. (Remember the comic strip "Sad Sack"? That comic's title came from the military phrase, "sad sack of shit". Needless to say, nobody felt any urge to inform the general public of that, when after the war the strip jumped from the military newspapers to the civilian journals. )
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
Some additional info on the etymology is here,
for the interested student: http://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/69788/what-is-the... . There's a great bit of documentation of the use of "foo" from The Tech (MIT student newspaper) in January of 1938, as well as the Daffy Duck cartoon. But it'll never be settled, and that is just as well.
Full disclosure: yes, I did go to MIT, much to my eternal sorrow. And even in the 70s, the presence of military-derived jargon was still very, very strong, since the place had been a hotbed of military activity during WWII (development of radar and the Manhattan Project). Between Lincoln Labs and Draper Labs (and the CIA's old outpost at the Sloan School), there was *more* than enough military to go around...
Perhaps we should ask Pynchon
It may depend on the etymological genealogy of the term f... you.
Oh, gawd! Can you imagine actually asking
him anything concrete? The answer would likely go on for several hundred pages, and leave you knowing less than when you started out with the question!
Holy cow. Makes my mind do backflips. "Gravity's Explication"... (;-)
Laurie Anderson wanted to make an opera out of "Rainbow". Just have to throw this in there...
Silence is foo.
Silence is foo.
You keep using that word...
Indeed...
The only non-dailymotion video I've found of the cartoon is backwards, so I won't post that one, but what the heck...
Jeebus, 60 Minutes is
still running? I gave up on that show when a bunch of 80 year olds were the hosts.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Fireworks on the Hudson won't unite us
Remember when Hillary declared victory in the primary without counting the votes in CA? Now the fireworks have already been set up on the Hudson? Did you really think your vote would be counted?
I just came across this
http://truepundit.com/busted-newsweek-pre-prints-special-hillary-madam-p...
Not sure about this site, truepundit, but the headline reads: BUSTED: Newsweek Pre-Prints Special Hillary “Madam President” Edition; No Mock Edition Printed for Trump Win?
Already discussed some time ago at JackPine Radicals
I think the consensus on this sort of thing was, many media prepare test results pages with dummy data, sometimes they get live-posted by mistake. This seems to be an actual test print run, though, so . . .
Thanks.
I was hoping it was misinformation. Dammit, dammit, dammit!
Personally I agree the election will be rigged
Here’s another example of “results” being posted early:
http://www.trueactivist.com/nbc-local-news-accidentally-posts-us-electio...
But even if we could be sure we had airtight proof of election fraudsters preparing fake press reports, how would we get the message out? How would we get the public to care?
On 9/11, for example, the BBC inexplicably announced the collapse of WTC 7 twenty minutes before it actually occurred. You’d think that would make (more) people suspicious. It doesn’t. Most people seem to neither know nor care.
The public only doesn't care because
it doesn't see what it can do about it.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
some are afraid
I gave a good friend information about 9/11. Her whole attitude was that the Government would never sacrifice Americans by instigating a false flag disaster. They do not want to believe the truth, that the government, TPTB will destroy our country.
New Hampshire
What the Effing Eff?
Nov 3
Tie, Trump+1, Trump+5
Nov 4
Tie, Trump+2
Nov 7
Clinton+1, Clinton+11
That's it folks, a move of 16 points in 4 days. The polls are conclusive, Clinton wins!
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone
Do they have early voting in NH?
And they count the earlies early? Stuck in NY no voting until tomorrow.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
... as an example,
Colorado is mostly "early voting" (we decided some time ago that we could not trust the mostly repug Secretaries of State who were routinely elected to oversee 'relatively' unbiased elections, so removed most election rulemaking from the SoS office). Any eligible voter who requests a mail-in ballot receives one; these can be mailed, or dropped off at specified locations -- generally the municipal/county seat, or a local fire department. I voted -- JILL STEIN!!! -- about ten days ago, and simply placed my completed ballot (enclosed in a "secrecy sleeve") in a canvas ballot box at City Hall.
OTOH, the "rules" in Colorado state that vote-counting does not begin until "the polls are closed" -- meaning that there will be no projections regarding Colorado's vote until 7:01 pm, Mountain Standard Time, November 8, 2016.
When Cicero had finished speaking, the people said “How well he spoke”.
When Demosthenes had finished speaking, the people said “Let us march”.
... as an example,
Colorado is mostly "early voting" (we decided some time ago that we could not trust the mostly repug Secretaries of State who were routinely elected to oversee 'relatively' unbiased elections, so removed most election rulemaking from the SoS office). Any eligible voter who requests a mail-in ballot receives one; these can be mailed, or dropped off at specified locations -- generally the municipal/county seat, or a local fire department. I voted -- JILL STEIN!!! -- about ten days ago, and simply placed my completed ballot (enclosed in a "secrecy sleeve") in a canvas ballot box at City Hall.
OTOH, the "rules" in Colorado state that vote-counting does not begin until "the polls are closed" -- meaning that there will be no projections regarding Colorado's vote until 7:01 pm, Mountain Standard Time, November 8, 2016.
When Cicero had finished speaking, the people said “How well he spoke”.
When Demosthenes had finished speaking, the people said “Let us march”.
OK, watched the video
Luntz made some good points.
However ...
If you can empanel a group selected "scientifically" to be a representative cross section of America (and there are good reasons to do that) you can also select one to give your client (CBS in this case) exactly what they're looking for. Luntz is, by all accounts, very good at what he does. I wonder what group he decided to select?
He presented two very negative clips to play for them (the pussy clip and the server wipe clip) and then talks about how negative they feel. He could also have picked some of their more uplifting lines (and they both have some) from their stump speeches and seen how strong the reactions were to them, but he had an agenda and skillfully pursued it.
The thing to remember with all these people is that every time we see them they are performing. It's an act and they have an agenda. Call it advertising, call it marketing, call it presenting a case, call it propaganda, call it swindling. It all depends on the underlying truth which can't be obtained from the presentation.
We are the most entertained people in history. Narrative is central to the way that our minds work and always has been, but we spend more time consuming performances of all types than any of our ancestors. Don't think that virtual reality means silly headsets. We spend so much time immersed in the virtual reality of performance that we are disconnected from actual reality in a way that no people have ever been. Is it any wonder that our society is running off the rails?
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone
Slightly OT
But somewhat to your point:
Did anyone also watch the leading segment on 60 Minutes, about Mosul, and "reported" by Lara Logan? Gawd, the propaganda seemed so in-your-face, but my partner wasn't seeing it. Maybe it was just me?
Not sure those selections are comparable.
Comey's report would have been more damning than the server wipe clip. Maybe the basket of deplorables, too.
The grab them by p---y clip arouses emotion and revulsion. Reacting to a server can't come close. The deplorable speech at least rouses emotion. Comey's report might as well
Subjective, of course
The pussy comment really didn't bother me all that much. It was more of an eye rolling "this guy never really left the frat house, did he" level of contempt. Whereas the casual (and/or ignorant, stupid or evil is always the question) disregard for data security really grinds my gears.
I could never be in one of Luntz's focus groups. I would set my remote at full negative and leave it there all the time.
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone
Hillary's ad with little kids listening to Trump is ironic.
But for her ads and oppo research, which run during the day, they would never have heard that comment. I don't know many eight year olds who watch the debate.
Anyway, it's not so much whether the comment bothered you, but whether you want your 7 year old exposed to it and to the idea that a President says things like that.
BTW, Comey's report contained plenty about data security. I think the head of the FBI saying she was very careless carries a lot of weight.
I'm with you. In the battle
I'm with you. In the battle of "stuff he said" vs. "stuff she did," I see the actions as worse. And of course, all the actions and decisions and omissions that made sending government communications over an unsecured network possible.
You keep using that word...
During the heyday of “Playboy” magazine in the 1950s and ’60s,
liberals seemed to regard crude pandering to the hetero male as some kind of wonderful cultural breakthrough.
Folks who disapproved of Playboy and Hugh Hefner and James Bond’s sexual exploits were dismissed as stuffed-shirt conservative prudes.
Remember Little Annie Fanny, a lush full-color comic strip painstakingly crafted for Playboy by two of Mad magazine’s best artists? I do. I remember feeling annoyed and repulsed.
Double standards galore. Lionel Nation did this hilarious imitation of Jay-Z at a Hillary event singing “my b—ch! that b—ch!,” and the next second it’s “OMG Trump, did you hear that awful sexist language.”
Comey's Revenge?
WINNING IN AMERICA!
@TheTrumpLady
This makes sense: Incredible theory just explained why Comey let Hillary off the hook. What do you think? FB Stephanie Costello
Can't pardon someone who is not charged with something...
Peace
FN
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
Whatever Comey's motivation,
it's doubtful that it was to prevent PBO from pardoning Hillary. President Gerald Ford gave Richard Nixon a "blanket" pardon on his way out the door, although Nixon was never charged criminally:
"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey
There's something very unseemly about granting a Pardon
"for all offenses against the United States..may have committed".
It's like hey whatever you did, here's a get out of jail free card.
And they wonder why the commoners are pissed.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
Unseemly especially if Michelle goes for senate seat /nt
Unseemly especially if Michelle goes for senate seat /nt
And yes Hillbilly Dem I see the Nixon pardon was for a certain time limit for 'all' FEDERAL crimes, even undiscovered. Wow that is virtually a "get out jail free card"....
Peace
FN
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
Luntz is guilty
For helping create the oligarch's propaganda machine.
Beware the bullshit factories.
And should be hanged.
Too harsh? Then 20 to Life.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
It's interesting how they join forces
When they are fighting us.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
So, the two party system
So, the two party system doesn't work. I mean, I think that's self evident. And the two party system in the information age is going to implode on itself.Maybe it's past time to recognize that there aren't two types of Americans and acknowledge the need for a true multi-party system. Even Luntz didn't pick two types of people for his focus group. He picked 16 people representing a multitude of types of people. Because there isn't two Americas, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of Americas. And that's how it always was and should be. We just need an electoral system that matches.
Shorter Luntz
The fix is in; deal with it.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
Oh you WILL deal with it
We will all have to deal with it. Hahahha.
I'm gonna go find a doomsday clock. Feels like 27 hours left.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
Head's Up People!!
Seriously- I'm surprised that this did not come up at all so n the comments: Luntz's analysis very slyly contains a demonization in and blame of social media for the state of disagreeing factions and an inability to listen to one another. FFS he's floating an article and claiming decades of experience in the field of masturbating data collected from an extremely small and hand-selected sample. Some of the handpicked chosen said we just say things in social media and don't listen. Watch out! This is the establishment trying to discredit and demonize one of the most powerful tools we have! Luntz and CNN are the mainstreamiest of the mainstreamy, and here they are, tangentially implicating social media for this deplorable state of affairs. There are far better writers than me here, so I hope to see further discussion of this because I didn't really see it in this thread anyway.
There is an Anonymous Youtube that appeared yesterday,
but flickers IRL, and was down then up later. A 17 minute manual for How to Upset the PTB. Very laid out: books to study, realize that we must all lead in some effort. Basic beginning is to find the Common easily-understood desire: a better world in the future for our children and grandchildren. And then ally with Law Enforcement and Military, the players who will be used against us, quite effectively, unless they are also united by the Common Desire. It was actually heartening.
Edit for spello.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
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