An American president once put a political opponent in jail for making an anti-war speech.

Many of us were shocked when Donald Trump threatened/suggested Hillary Clinton would be prosecuted and imprisoned if he had control of the Justice Department. Here’s a typical response:

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There’s a fair amount of implicit jingoism and racism in the view that this sort of thing only happens in the “3rd world”. The assumption is that we’re too good for it. Except we’re not. It has happened here.

When he wasn’t re-segregating federal agencies, mandating forced sterilization of criminals and mentally unwell and applauding neo-confederate propaganda, US president Woodrow Wilson also managed to imprison a candidate who had run against him for the presidency.

Eugene Debs ran for president on the Socialist party ticket five times. In 1900 (earning 0.63% of the popular vote), 1904 (2.98%), 1908 (2.83%), 1912 (5.99%) and 1920 (3.41%) from a prison cell.

The 1912 election was a four-way race prompted by a schism within the Republican party. Former Republican president Teddy Roosevelt created his own Progressive (Bull-Moose) party and ran on that ticket, while Taft (the incumbent) ran on the Republican ticket. Debs came in fourth, Woodrow Wilson won on the Democratic ticket. Wilson was the first Democrat from the south elected to the the presidency after the Civil War. At the time, Southern Democrats dominated the party and formed the pro-segregation “solid south”.

As if all this wasn’t interesting enough, Teddy Roosevelt survived an assassination attempt while on the campaign trail. He proceeded to give a 90 minute speech after the shooting, with blood seeping through his shirt, saying "Ladies and gentlemen, I don't know whether you fully understand that I have just been shot, but it takes more than that to kill a Bull Moose." I would call that a #bossmove

Wilson won re-election in 1916, Debs was not on the Socialist ticket. Instead, he ran for Congress that year. Then, in 1918, Debs gave a speech advocating resistance to World War I and the military draft. In the speech he said:

Wars throughout history have been waged for conquest and plunder. In the Middle Ages when the feudal lords who inhabited the castles whose towers may still be seen along the Rhine concluded to enlarge their domains, to increase their power, their prestige and their wealth they declared war upon one another. But they themselves did not go to war any more than the modern feudal lords, the barons of Wall Street go to war. The feudal barons of the Middle Ages, the economic predecessors of the capitalists of our day, declared all wars. And their miserable serfs fought all the battles. The poor, ignorant serfs had been taught to revere their masters; to believe that when their masters declared war upon one another, it was their patriotic duty to fall upon one another and to cut one another’s throats for the profit and glory of the lords and barons who held them in contempt. And that is war in a nutshell. The master class has always declared the wars; the subject class has always fought the battles. The master class has had all to gain and nothing to lose, while the subject class has had nothing to gain and all to lose—especially their lives.

They have always taught and trained you to believe it to be your patriotic duty to go to war and to have yourselves slaughtered at their command. But in all the history of the world you, the people, have never had a voice in declaring war, and strange as it certainly appears, no war by any nation in any age has ever been declared by the people.

And here let me emphasize the fact—and it cannot be repeated too often—that the working class who fight all the battles, the working class who make the supreme sacrifices, the working class who freely shed their blood and furnish the corpses, have never yet had a voice in either declaring war or making peace. It is the ruling class that invariably does both. They alone declare war and they alone make peace.

Yours not to reason why;
Yours but to do and die.

That is their motto and we object on the part of the awakening workers of this nation.

If war is right let it be declared by the people. You who have your lives to lose, you certainly above all others have the right to decide the momentous issue of war or peace.

Debs was arrested and prosecuted by Wilson’s justice department for this political speech. He was accused of violating the Espionage Act of 1917 and the court ruled the speech had the “intention and effect of obstructing the draft and recruitment for the war." Debs’ defense relied entirely on his right to free speech under the First Amendment. The Supreme Court ruled against him and he was sentenced to 10 years in prison and disenfranchised for life.

In a 1930 review of two biographies on Debs, Rose Feld recalled what Debs said during his trial:

I have been accused of obstructing the war. I admit it. Gentlemen, I abhor war. I would oppose the war if I stood alone. When I think of a cold, glittering steel bayonet being plunged in the white, quivering flesh of a human being, I recoil with horror. I have often wondered if I could take the life of my fellow men, even to save my own.

Men talk about holy wars. There are none. Let me remind you that it was Benjamin Franklin who said, 'There was never a good war or a bad peace.'

In a September 12, 1918 article on the jury trial, the NY Times reported:

Debs expended his eloquence in admitting every fact alleged by the government, even declining to repudiate the rabidly anti-war program of the Socialists adopted at St. Louis. He pleaded only that the constitution granted the right to free speech. [...]

Debs said that history showed that minorities had always been right on great questions, and recounted the martyrdom of men who, like Socrates, thought in advance of their time. Lincoln and Webster, he said, bitterly opposed the Mexican war, and criticized the administration of President Polk.

Wertz [the prosecuting DA] later reminded the jury in his turn that in the days of Polk there was no Espionage Act such as that under which Debs was accused.

In a March 12, 1919 on Debs’ sentencing, the Times said:

Debs openly violated the law so passed, and rested his case on his own theory of the constitution. That theory, in a nutshell, was that the government had no power to defend itself against unbridled speech, even though that speech might lead to the government’s own destruction.

It is remarkable to read these words today, “rabidly anti-war”, “unbridled speech” all employed to advocate for control on political speech.

At his sentencing, Debs addressed the court:

Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

If the law under which I have been convicted is a good law, then there is no reason why sentence should not be pronounced upon me. I listened to all that was said in this court in support and justification of this prosecution, but my mind remains unchanged. I look upon the Espionage Law as a despotic enactment in flagrant conflict with democratic principles and with the spirit of free institutions.

Your Honor, I have stated in this court that I am opposed to form of our present Government; that I am opposed to the social system in which we live; that I believed in the change of both—but by perfectly peaceable and orderly means.

Debs wasn’t the only person imprisoned for opposing World War I. Fellow Socialist Kate Richards O'Hare was sentenced to five years in prison (she was one of the few segregationists in the Socialist party). Across the pond, the philosopher Bertrand Russell also spent time in his prison for making anti-war speeches.

Wilson received numerous appeals to pardon Debs. Debs himself never requested a pardon, saying that would amount to admitting he was wrong. In response to one of the requests Wilson wrote:

I know that in certain quarters of the country, there is a popular demand for the pardon of Debs, but it shall never be accomplished with my consent… While the flower of American youth was pouring out its blood to vindicate the cause of civilization, this man, Debs, stood behind the lines sniping, attacking, and denouncing them.… This man was a traitor to his country and he will never be pardoned during my administration. Before the war he had a perfect right to exercise his freedom of speech and express his own opinion, but once the Congress of the United States declared war, silence on his part would have been the proper course to pursue.

Wilson’s sentiment is no different from the vitriol directed against activists who opposed the war in Vietnam, including Muhammad Ali and John Kerry. War has always been used to silence dissent.

In 1921, President Harding commuted Debs’ sentence to life served. He was never pardoned.

Incidentally, Edward Snowden is also charged with violating the 1917 Espionage Act.

h/t to @duckspeech for the reminder:

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When Debs ran for president in 1920, from his prison cell he received 919,000 votes. This was more than the 900,000 he’d received in 1912, though it was a smaller fraction of the popular vote (3.41% vs. 5.99% in 1912). The discrepancy is explained by the passage of the 19th amendment which was ratified in August 1920, expanding the right to vote to women.

The Socialist Party of America, which Debs helped found in 1901 included women’s suffrage in it’s foundational platform. Predecessors like the Socialist Labor Party had included women’s suffrage in their platforms even earlier. , and the party ran numerous female candidates. Wilson was unsupportive of the suffrage movement, opposing it in his 1912 campaign against Theodore Roosevelt (who was in favor of women’s suffrage). Wilson advocated a “state by state approach. Eventually, under intense pressure from suffragists led protests, Wilson relented and publicly supported the nineteenth amendment in January 1918.

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MsGrin's picture

I did not find the call for a special prosecutor as shocking as some. It appears to me that the investigation which was done left many questions.

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

Comey' s actions were indefensible, undermined the supposed rule of law, and made it absolutely clear that certain people are above the law. Impossible to have any confidence in the DOJ or FBI ever again. I applaud that imbecile Trump for telling the Clinton's that they are not above the law.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

Woodrow Wilson was a racist and sexist bigot. He signed numerous pieces of the worst garbage into law, from the Espionage Act itself to the legislation creating the privately-owned Federal Reserve System and delegating to it the power to coin money -- a power the Constitution grants to Congress alone. And, of course, he got us into World War I, which in turn embroiled us in World War II. We could (and should) have easily remained out of WWI; even a German victory in that war would have been better for us than what ended up happening in the subsequent 20 years.

When will Americans get their heads out of "You Know Where" and move their government and culture Leftward?

Groan.

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

don't think there's any doubt about that. Leave Europe to the Europeans.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

sojourns's picture

if you enjoy documentaries. Titled "Long Shadow", Reynolds thoughtfully explains WWI leading to WWII and beyond. It's available on Netflix.

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

Thornrose's picture

An excellent article. Very, very interesting and compelling. All I knew about Eugene Debs before was that Bernie Sanders admired him. Now I'm going to find and read his biography.

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Trey Gowdy is likely to beat Trump. There isn't a doubt in my mind that she stole the primary, recklessly exposed top secret information, used the Foundation to launder money for her personal gain, and that Obama covered her ass probably because he is complicit. With Manning, Assange and Snowden in jail or exile, I have no understanding or sympathy for what Hillary has done or Trump said. I think the "shock" over it is ridiculous. He didn't threaten her with jail for anything she said. He threatened her with justice, something the Democrats can't even spell anymore. If we are going to measure lesser of evils, there isn't a doubt she beats Trump hands down.

How do you connect what Trump said about Hillary to Debs? If you are suggesting that Hillary is anything akin to Debs, I say DailyKos propaganda pond is that way.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

thanatokephaloides's picture

How do you connect what Trump said about Hillary to Debs? If you are suggesting that Hillary is anything akin to Debs, I say DailyKos propaganda pond is that way.

That wasn't what the writer was saying, at all.

The writer's point was that Presidents, once in power, have had opponents jailed for far less actual, legitimate cause than Donald Trump would have to get Hillary Clinton jailed once he became President.

There is no question that Woodrow Wilson had no legitimate reason to jail or punish Eugene Debs for speaking out against America's involvement in World War I. And there's no question of Hillary Clinton having anything in common with Eugene Debs. In fact, she has more in common with Wilson.

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Sabir said "we" when he talked about shocked. No we in me so he must have been talking about him. Then he went from two gutter candidates jockeying for the lead in the most corrupt, non-democratic election eve,r to a presiding President putting someone greatly admired in jail for speech. That paired Trump with Wilson and Hillary with Debs. If that isn't what sabir meant to do, it wasn't clear to me.

I am sick to death of the right, left and every other media vehicle doing Hillary's dirty work. If I hear any more noise about Trump, I may shut off my radio, computer, and TV and never turn them back on. If we are going to start talking about how awful Trump is, I might as well watch CNN or go to dailykos. I know sabir is not like the rest of the Hillarybots there, but there are a lot of good people advocating for the lesser of evil.

I posted without comment an article from Naked Capitalism in a BondDad diary - yeah, he's back. I got put into a timeout for it because they apparently didn't like what Naked Capitalism had to say about Trump's taxes. As far as I am concerned, they can leave me there. I had to log in to share it in the first place. So the short and sweet of it is that I won't put up with Trump dissing on this site without pushing back. We all know he is an asshole. Let Hillarys people make her own GD case any place but here.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

elenacarlena's picture

for Hillary. In fact, I'm loving Trump's flameout. The less the vote is going to Trump, the more comfortable I feel voting for Jill. If the final tally is 45% Jill, 45% Hill, 10% Trump, surely the House will put in Hill over Trump. Which, sorry, I still think is slightly better than President Trump. But if everyone feels free to vote their conscience because there is no reason to fear Trump because polls show him with a tiny remainder, then there is a much better chance for Jill to actually win.

My final hopeful tally: Jill 51%, Hill 35%, Johnson 10%, Trump 4%.

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

Things are a bit crazy all around right now.

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@subirgrewal

Though honestly, I wasn't even comparing Clinton to Debs. It was about how this "banana republic" stuff is really ahistorical.

All that said, if we're talking about justice (as the original commenter claimed to be), then Trump should probably be behind bars, for fraud and sexual assault among other things.

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@subirgrewal

TheOtherMaven's picture

and I'm not excluding the Supreme Court from that category..

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Oldest Son Of A Sailor's picture

As do some government officials that failed to charge and prosecute, and interfered with the investigation and bringing her to justice on a long list of crimes we are all familiar with and can see the Quid Pro Quo on as brightly as the light of day...

There are also a number of her cronies, both those that bribed her, and those who ran this sham of a primary election and general election, that should be brought up on charges as well, and the whole damn bunch of them should be Rico'd away for years to come...

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"Do you realize the responsibility I carry?
I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."

~John F. Kennedy~
Economic: -9.13, Social: -7.28,

on the debate stage.

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@subirgrewal

Guccifer, Assange, Intercept and a handful of non-mainstream outlets that don't follow Hillary's script - not Pied Pipers to use the campaign's language. The DNC admitted to rigging the primaries. There are freaking lawsuits everywhere over the voting process. The only people who don't "believe" are the stupid Hillarybots with their heads up their asses. Whether you listen to the private Hillary or the public Hillary one thing is for certain. She's a corrupt liar who would do anything for her own personal gain and benefit.

Shocked at what? Saying that Comey took a dive? That he gave everyone including Hillary's gardener immunity and permission to destroy evidence? That she lied under oath to Congress and is a perjurer? That's on tape. Where's the shock that she's a liar and a crook? The shock is the blatant disregard this party has for honest and justice. No bankers or torturers in jail. Stealing elections. Manning being tortured for doing less to less important information than Hillary leaves stuck to her shoes.

Trump did and said what he needed to. It is too bad these leaks didn't come out in time for Bernie, and it is too bad that Bernie never took the gloves off. The media with Hillary's help anointed Trump so they could destroy him. Look, look at the clown and don't pay any attention to the women Hillary has attacked, people she's murdered, and the super predators she's put into jail. If I couldn't vote for Bernie or Jill Stein, Trump would get my vote. Whatever it takes to keep the Clinton trash out of the White House.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

dlxtele's picture

Who did Hillary stride up to and shoot in the face? Tell me the name or names of the of the deceased? Now tell tell the name of the person she walked up to (without permission) and forcibly their genitals (like tHe dOnald said he did)? BTW the latter is sexual assault if you did not already know! Please tell me who that poor individual is/was!

I know she can be a guarded person. My 1st wife stepped out on me and for a period of time after I found out I became more insular. I recovered as time went by, but I did not suffer further betrayals. I am sorry to say that at a later date my wife and I split up.

Brent

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Alligator Ed's picture

You do not understand the millions she has made homeless, the coin less hundreds of thousands of families shattered, the million children suffering still from her murders. Perhaps you don't see them because they happened overseas. But those were real people--WERE people and are now ashes. She is guarded because it does not look we4ll to boasting about your murders, such as Ghaddafi: "We came, we saw, he died. Ha, ha, ha".
Or how about this one: "Iraq is a good business opportunity" even if it meant killing hundreds of thousands.

Foul language is a much more serious crime than mass murders, is it?

You are a Hillbot. That is enough to ruin any credibility I might have otherwise intended granting you. Go back to GOS!

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Your sheer blind good little soldier shows, and I have no questions for you. You are free to think what you want. I'm sure the people in Libya and Syria can tell you the names of the people she killed, and I don't give a FF about how bad Trump is. What's new? Besides, Trump never "said" he did, he said he could. Probably has. I'll put that # 10 on my list of concerns right after you stop the bombing, stop the fracking, feed the starving kids in this country, fix our schools, and provide people with health care.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

snoopydawg's picture

Why don't you tell us why so many Haitians were still living in tents after 6 years since the earthquake hit that country?
Where did all the money go that Bill and George collected?
Why did anyone who wanted in on the reconstruction of Haiti have to go through the Clinton foundation?

Hurricane Matthew and its aftereffects have left 18 people dead in the U.S., and nearly 900 dead in Haiti. Guess which one the corporate media is focusing on.
Well, horrifically impoverished brown people are probably going to be less likely to ask their doctor if Zoloft is right for them, so it’s kind of understandable. Especially when you remember that the darling of those same corporate media outlets, Hillary Clinton, is responsible for some of their destitution.
Eww, yucky. Democrats don’t like thinking about the actual things their leaders do. Can’t we just send Haiti our thoughts and prayers and go back to talking about how rapey Donald Trump is?

Hillary's state department blocked the minimum wage from being raised from $.31 per hour to $.62 per hour because the corporations asked her to block the increase.
And Hillary, Obama and the DNC are accusing Russia of interfering with our election? Where's the proof?
There's proof that the state department didn't like the results of the first election because the person wanted to help his people and so the election was nullified and redone to get the right person in place.

In 2011, transparency-advocacy group WikiLeaks shared 1,918 documents ranging in classification from “unclassified” to “secret” with the Haitian weekly paper Haïti Liberté. In an English language collaboration with that paper, The Nation reports that among these documents is a 2009 correspondence between members of Hillary Clinton’s State Department, who collaborated with sweatshop owners from U.S. companies Hanes, Levi Strauss and Fruit of the Loom to thwart a minimum wage increase from 31 cents an hour to 62 cents an hour.
That’s right, the department run by former Wal-Mart director Hillary Clinton helped inflict a much more soul-crushing version abroad of the same soul-crushing corporatist democide that’s choking Americans to death at home for the benefit of companies like Wal-Mart. Incidentally, Alternet reports that the Walton family, owners of Wal-Mart, donated huge sums of money to help Clinton defeat her anti-corporatist rival Bernie Sanders, and according to the Washington Examiner, they’re still financially bolstering her campaign against Republican rival Donald.

Can some of you “we’ll hold Hillary’s feet to the fire” Democrats get on this now, please? You’ve got one job for crying out loud.
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/3575371/dont-forget-the-times-hillary-sabotaged...

Obama told us to Make him do it When we wanted him to keep his campaign promises, remember?
How many emails, petitions and phone calls did we do during the health care debate and then learning that he had already made deals with the insurance and pharmaceutical companies behind our backs?

The incident in Haiti happened the year before the devastating 7.0 earthquake that claimed the lives of some 200,000 human beings. The poorest country in this hemisphere, Haiti needed massive humanitarian aid from abroad in order to begin to rebuild and stem the lethal aftereffects of the disaster from which it still hasn’t recovered. Slate reports that the U.S. Agency for International Development, or USAID, which was under the umbrella of Clinton’s State department, ignored recommendations to hire Haitian contractors, bringing in American firms to do the rebuilding instead and more than quadrupling the price per house from $8,000 to $33,000.

And don't forget what Hillary said about the women who accused Bill of sexually assaulting them, nor how she laughed when she got her client off from raping a 12 year old girl.
She f'cking laughed!

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Pluto's Republic's picture

…of Libyans. That was ALL her doing.

Her public lies are legend. She's a horror on the world stage:

In the Milwaukee debate, Hillary Clinton took pride in her role in a recent UN Security Council resolution on a Syrian ceasefire:

But I would add this. You know, the Security Council finally got around to adopting a resolution. At the core of that resolution is an agreement I negotiated in June of 2012 in Geneva, which set forth a cease-fire and moving toward a political resolution, trying to bring the parties at stake in Syria together.

This is the kind of compulsive misrepresentation that makes Clinton unfit to be President. Clinton’s role in Syria has been to help instigate and prolong the Syrian bloodbath, not to bring it to a close.

In 2012, Clinton was the obstacle, not the solution, to a ceasefire being negotiated by UN Special Envoy Kofi Annan. It was US intransigence - Clinton’s intransigence - that led to the failure of Annan’s peace efforts in the spring of 2012, a point well known among diplomats. Despite Clinton’s insinuation in the Milwaukee debate, there was (of course) no 2012 ceasefire, only escalating carnage. Clinton bears heavy responsibility for that carnage, which has by now displaced more than 10 million Syrians and left more than 250,000 dead.

As every knowledgeable observer understands, the Syrian War is not mostly about Bashar al-Assad, or even about Syria itself. It is mostly a proxy war, about Iran. And the bloodbath is doubly tragic and misguided for that reason.

Syria is about Iran's oil pipeline to Europe. And nothing else.

Hillary is one of the worst of the Neocon monsters who support her election campaign. She is their puppet queen, as the entire world is well aware. The bringer of chaos.

This deliberate ignorance in the Americans people, about the atrocities they ignite daily throughout the world, is leading them to a terrible fate.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

If you understand Arabic and Farsi, you will get answers you seem like you may not like.

BTW, do we know for certain that Trump grabbed anyone or do we know only that he bragged he did? Yes, bragging about it is bad enough, but it's not the same as actually having done it. We do, however, know what Hillary voted for as Senator and wrought as SOS in the Middle East and how she laughed about it and at the prospect of dropping nuclear bombs on Iran.

The problem is that the duopoly has given us two incompetent psychopaths, each very sick in different ways, leaving some of us trying to polish one turd or the other.

My personal belief is that either would be a horrific President, Donald more so in the short term because he is verbally incontinent. However, Hillary will do more long term damage to the country, the full extent of which may not become obvious while she is in office. The Clintons have long been striving to have nothing but Republicans in politics, running our country, states and towns, with some of them self-identifying as Democrats. If you think any thing Trump can do approaches the damage they've been about causing since the early 1980s, we disagree.

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You are comparing the actions and impact of a person who has held almost no power, with those of a person who has. If DJT had been a Senator and SoS, you'd be reeling from the awful impact of his actions. If he were president, we would all be reeling.

Trump is a bully, in that he always picks on the weak. I live in NYC, I've detested the guy for decades. His racist housing policy in the 1970s and his actions during the central park five case are all I need to know that this man shouldn't be given any power whatsoever. Plus, his economic policies, such as they are, are as bad or worse.

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@subirgrewal

Since when does claiming facts do not hold water make it so?

Moreover, Trump's not having power had nothing to do with Hillary's conduct. She did what she did. Besides, you asked whom Hillary had killed. I and several others merely answered you. (I posted before I read the other replies, but so many similar replies to your question is no surprise. She seems to think nothing of killing beige and brown people in the Middle East. To the contrary, she laughs about it--and on TV. That's her public position. Just imagine her private position!

blockquote> If he were president, we would all be reeling.

I understand that you sincerely believe to be true, but it is not a fact. It is what you believe would be so. Your personal belief about a purely hypothetical situation is not fact and does not trump or rebut actual acts and omissions of Hillary I learned that from the imaginary administrations of imaginary Presidents Kerry and Gore. And, if you don't think we'll be reeling after Clinton II, think of the economic collapse of 2008 in the U.S. Greece, Spain and Portugal. (The UK, too, but I think they took over the banks, instead of bailing them out, as did New Democrats.) And private prisons. And DADT and DOMA. And so much more.

I could reply to your comment about his racist housing policies the same way you replied to me: It doesn't hold water because, if the Clintons were in real estate instead of politics, they would have done even worse. As stated, though, that is a personal belief about a hypothetical. (Hell, look what the Clintons have done and are doing with a freaking charitable foundation! Do I believe they'd be less corrupt running a for profit enterprise? Hell, NO.)

You attempted to rebut the things I've said about Hillary by insulting Trump some more. I don't think that refutes this

The problem is that the duopoly has given us two incompetent psychopaths, each very sick in different ways, leaving some of us trying to polish one turd or the other.

Or this

My personal belief is that either would be a horrific President, Donald more so in the short term because he is verbally incontinent. However, Hillary will do more long term damage to the country, the full extent of which may not become obvious while she is in office. The Clintons have long been striving to have nothing but Republicans in politics, running our country, states and towns, with some of them self-identifying as Democrats. If you think any thing Trump can do approaches the damage they've been about causing since the early 1980s, we disagree

.

Candidly, I have difficulty every time someone posts herer that they are voting for Hillary because Trump is a bigot without addressing Hillary's bigotry. I also have difficulty when someone says they or we must stop Trump with no mention of purple states, red states or blue states, aka strategic voting. http://caucus99percent.com/content/word-about-voting-november-okay-many-...

This race has four candidates. My first position is #JillNotHill. My second is #AnybodyButHillary. Why? Because I believe she is the greater evil by far. So, go ahead and vote your conscience, but please do not imply that people who oppose Hillary are not concerned about Trump's bigotry. From where I sit, people who oppose all candidates but Hillary are not concerned about her bigotry. ou have not said anything about Trump that is not true of Hillary in spades.She is no less bigoted or less ruthless or less corrupt than he is, only more circumspect. And being less bigoted is like being less pregnant.

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sojourns's picture

it is below the mantle of the Presidency to publicly single out a private citizen (and she will be if she loses) for prosecution. It's one thing to privately suggest it, if fitting and appropriate, that a president should discuss prosecution with the AG. Doing so publicly is quite another. I'm not that much for decorum but this one matters. Publicly threating people as president or as a presidential hopeful reflects a dictatorial nature.

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

Centaurea's picture

A private citizen who insists on being referred to as "Secretary" Clinton. Blum 3

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"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone

someone stops the Clintons from stealing this one. And you are right. Trump isn't much of a private person, and Hillary is anything but - unless she is talking to Wall Street. We must keep our Hillary's straight.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Alligator Ed's picture

As this essay eloquently describes, Mr. Debs was not an office holder yet was jailed by Woodrow Wilson for "crimes" must less virulent that those of Medusa. The best part of the so-called second debate was, in my opinion, the remark by Trump that Her Heinous would be jailed.

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sojourns's picture

Oh Yes. Trump's on stage threats towards Hillary go a long way toward discussing important policy during a presidential debate. The public should get much valuable mileage out of that!

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

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sojourns's picture

Nowhere am I defending Clinton.

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

side of the equation.

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sojourns's picture

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

equal my implying it. What my post says--and only what my post says-- is on me. What you imagine it says is entirely on you.

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snoopydawg's picture

And congress still has the power to bring impeachment proceedings against her for the email server and the pay to play with foreign governments, using her position to help corporations and financial institutions that had business before the state department and after selling weapons and fixing businesses's problems her foundation would receive millions in donations and before the transactions, Bill would get paid to give a speech.
The only way for Bill to know about what the state department was going to do was if someone from the foundation had access to Hillary's email account, which Chelsea did according to Huma Abedin.
How many people had access to her email account that didn't have security clearance?
And let's not forget that Sidney Bluementhal stole classified information from the NSA in Sudan and forwarded it to Hillary.
Why wasn't he changed for stealing the information from the NSA? I would really like an answer to this question.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

riverlover's picture

It makes sense, at some level. At least that they would like to start that rumor to show to scared Americans that they are all-powerful and all-seeing.

In their vaguely described all-seeing role, were they allowed to monitor the secret correspondence of POTUS?

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

snoopydawg's picture

Why would the NSA give anything to Assange?
I'm not sure what you mean or what part of my comments you are responding to.
Please explain.
Thanks

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I'll tell you what shock is. A president getting elected in 2008 and refusing to charge the preceding criminal president and his lapdogs for crimes against humanity. And then do pretty much the same criminal things. You sound like you believe in the "to big to jail" or in this case "to connected to jail"?? In my little insignificant world, if you break the law you pay the price regardless who you are. Trump's an overpriced piece of shit but what's so wrong about what he said. If he were president and another investigation proved beyond doubt clinton broke the law and she is sentenced to prison (I have to laugh at that) are you going to hit the streets in protest? I'm sure not...

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It's a war crime when the Russians arm Assad and his forces bomb civilians.

It is not a war crime when we arm the Saudis and they bomb Yemeni civilians.

Double-standards are really quite simple.

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@subirgrewal

Now tell me why I should be shocked if a president trump jailed clinton??

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War crimes are what we prosecute the heads of vanquished states or "little countries". Doesn't happen to super-powers.

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@subirgrewal

Shahryar's picture

to get mad at us! Yes we tortured some folks but don't be sanctimonious about it! (what?) Those folks who did it had a tough job. Lemme see if I can call that up...

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/08/john-brennan-torture-cia-109654

“People did not know whether more attacks were imminent. And there was enormous pressure on our law enforcement and our national security teams to try to deal with this. It’s important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job that those folks had. A lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots”

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snoopydawg's picture

Those people aren't patriots, they are war criminals according to the Geneva conventions and it doesn't matter if they had permission to do those things.
This was settled at the Nuremberg trials, remember?
Just following orders still got a lot of people hung or shot.
He didn't prosecute them because he didn't end the torture.
It still happened at baghram air base and on navy 'black' ships.
I don't know if he even stopped the renditioning of people to countries that did the torturing for us.
The reason why he didn't prosecute anyone for war crimes because it's an unwritten rule that presidents don't prosecute their predecessors because they will also be prosecuted for war crimes.
I don't think that there is one president that hasn't committed war crimes since the Nuremberg trials.
The law is that it's a war crime to invade any country that hasn't threatened another one.
Look at how many countries the United States has either invaded or bombed.
IMO, overthrowing elected governments is a war crime too.
Just where the hell is the rule that says that the United States has the right to remove another country's government?
The CIA has or has attempted over 51 coups since its inception starting with either Syria in 1949 or Iran in 1953.
And what is the reason for it? The Iranian coup was because the Iranian president wouldn't let standard oil drill for oil in his country.
Standard oil, the British monarchy and the Rockefellers were behind that coup.
The coups in Syria and was planned in 2006. The current Ukraine president used to live in Virginia and was friends with the CIA.
Wesley Clark is on record stating that the United States was going to overthrow and bomb 7 countries.
Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen and 3 others are on the list.
The Ukraine coup was a bonus coup.
The current president told Hillary in 2006 that if he was president then he would open up his country to foreign corporations, and he has.
The impeachment of Brazil's president was another coup and just like he visited Ukraine after the coup there, Biden went to Brazil afterwards.
Kindly uncle Joe has a very sordid history both during his time in congress and as VP.
Wasn't it the Monroe doctrine that started the US on the path of global hegemony?
And the people in this country actually believe that our military is fighting to defend our country and our freedoms.
I have no idea how to wake people up to the truth of why our soldiers are risking their lives for corporations.
Smedley Butler told the world this back in the 30's yet people are still joining the military.
image_210.jpeg

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Flyswatterbanjo's picture

suggested upholding the law on a debate stage? I'm not seeing what's so shocking about that.

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There's more than enough info to get an indictment for Hillary. Indictment, arrest warrant, jail waiting bond. How the hell do they think the rest of us are treated?

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for allegedly raping a 13 year old. I wonder if it was on the plane Lolita when Bill and the rest of the guys were there.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

trade, war, income inequality, education or any of the bullshit that was put on the "most progressive platform" in a gazillion years. Public Hillary can just shut up and let the media elect private Hillary.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Damnit Janet's picture

right now millions are being bombed, millions here are being starved of food and education...

But all the elites can talk about is pussy and blow jobs.

Because Amerikans are nothing but voiceless peasants with lots and lots of cheap shit in storage and lawn pods.

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"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison

thanatokephaloides's picture

But all the elites can talk about is pussy and blow jobs.

Where's Pussy Riot when we need 'em?

Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Pluto's Republic's picture

You notice we're not talking about trade, war, income inequality, education...

Policy discussions are completely off the table in 2016.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Shahryar's picture

whatever that might be because we're with her and she's with us. She believes children should grow up to be what they want to be, except in "certain situations".

Shaharazade told me, when she was working for the Obama campaign (before she quit when she figured it out) that they specifically told her not to discuss issues. We had a mayoral election 4 years ago when a woman ran an Obama style campaign (and lost) where she too avoided issues. I thought she'd be good so I went to her first big gathering. One of those who attended wanted to know where the candidate stood on an issue and was pointedly told by a campaign aide that we weren't going to get into that. Seriously!

And Hillary is continuing that policy. If she had any stance on any issue it might cost her votes so it's better to speak in platitudes and let the hoi polloi guess that she likes what they like.

oh boy...28 days left.

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I always enjoy your writing -- and learn something at the same time.

Trump's threat to have a special prosecutor investigate Hillary was hardly the most shocking thing he's said. And he's always suing people in his business life, so it was a natural progression for him. Have to admit I laughed out loud when she said how we should be happy that he wasn't in charge of criminal justice in this country and he came right back with Yeah, or you'd be in jail. I guess my moral fiber has been coarsened.

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Emmet

I think it was only shocking because we don't expect it on the debate stage. I don't know why, we've seen him say anything and everything at a rally, including goading supporters to rough up protesters.

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@subirgrewal

I always appreciate your writing! And I've admired Debs for a long time. I lived in Terre Haute, IN, for about twenty years, and picked up some knowledge of him by osmosis -- didn't read a biography until about ten years ago. (Which didn't mention his niece Margaret, who devoted her life to supporting her uncle's work.)

From the bio, I learned that Debs was a working-class guy, smarter and better-educated than most, who while young got a job on the railroad (Terre Haute was a hub). The town's 1% took an interest in him because he was so bright and articulate, and took him under their wing so he could be their 'translator' to the working-class railroad men -- his early work was 'educating' the men on their employer's expectations, with an eye to generating enthusiastic compliance with the bosses' performance preferences. However, that work put Gene in the position of hearing the men's grievances, as well -- so the arguments of the 99% were part of his daily life, and in Terre Haute you're always close to poor people trying to get by. (The other main employers in the area were coal mines, so railroad men and coal miners made up a goodly portion of the populace.)

During Deb's lifetime, railroads were the main vehicle for transportation for goods, as well as for people. While reading that bio. I couldn't help wondering how the fact of the rapid and constant movements of the trains and their workers was likely instrumental in communicating Debs' (and other 'Workers' Rights' messages) far and wide, quite rapidly for the era. Not only could the railroad men pass verbal information to other workers all along their routes, leaflets generated in Terre Haute could be distributed to every whistle-stop from coast to coast in just a few days. This speedy transfer of information among the 99% seems to me to have been nearly as radically liberating to the non-privileged as Twitter has been in our time.

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a catalyst for change!

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@subirgrewal

edg's picture

Are you advocating that war criminals like Hillary Clinton should not be prosecuted? Do you excuse the crimes committed in Libya under the direction of Ms. Clinton as Architect of the Libyan War -- tens of thousands of dead civilians, hundreds of thousands of refugees, weapons illegally funneled to terrorist groups in Syria, footholds established for Al Qaida and ISIS, nonjudicial execution of Gaddafi ("We came, we saw, he died."), etc. etc. etc.

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not 'advocating' the position you propose.

The 'faux outrage' is the position that 'A President jailing a political opponent would make America like a Third World banana republic'. The facts that subir puts before us remind us that a century ago Woodrow Wilson imprisoned political opponent Eugene V Debs by using the Espionage Act to over-ride Deb's First Amendment rights.

I do not see subir 'advocating' *any* position in this article. I do see him presenting historical facts that are related to current news.

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edg's picture

My comment was premised on just the first sentence: "Many of us were shocked when Donald Trump threatened/suggested Hillary Clinton would be prosecuted and imprisoned if he had control of the Justice Department."

I wasn't shocked by Trump's statement. I was shocked when President Obama didn't prosecute any Bush war crimes or any of the execs from financial institutions that crashed our economy in 2008.

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Thanks!

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@subirgrewal

TheOtherMaven's picture

Genuine medieval feudal barons damn well DID lead their troops from in front and shared their risks of getting maimed or killed - and some were. For that matter, so were some kings.

The Autocratic period (16th-17th century) is when you find the lords "waging" wars from safety while the levies got slaughtered. This was not an improvement.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

thanatokephaloides's picture

Genuine medieval feudal barons damn well DID lead their troops from in front and shared their risks of getting maimed or killed - and some were. For that matter, so were some kings.

Henry VII was the last King of England to fight at the head of his men in this manner. The Battle of Bosworth Field (8/22/1485) represented a situation where two such Kings fought, Henry VII fighting his immediate predecessor Richard III.

Henry VIII would probably have followed suit, but at the time he was leading his armies in France, he was son-less and already King.

The Autocratic period (16th-17th century) is when you find the lords "waging" wars from safety while the levies got slaughtered. This was not an improvement.

Debs was correct, however, in stating that modern wars are fought using the Autocratic model. And, as you correctly point out, it's no improvement. In fact, it's in many ways worse.

Diablo

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

sojourns's picture

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

so I wouldn't judge him on historical accuracy. He is roughly right, though we can quibble about the recently abandoned requirement for US presidents to have served in the armed forces in some capacity.

As an aside, you could make the argument that in the nuclear age, everyone is on the front-lines.

BTW, it is a strange experience reading him since all his references are Euro-centric. It may be because that's what the audience expects, or it may just be that his own cultural markers were limited. In either case, it goes to show we've come quite a long way.

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@subirgrewal

dlxtele's picture

Nixon was sending the IRS and the Justice Dept after his Political Enemies. LBJ I have heard did the IRS thing too. WIth Watergate it was outlawed by Congress and I do not think the Law has ben changed.

Brent

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thanatokephaloides's picture

WIth Watergate it was outlawed by Congress and I do not think the Law has ben changed.

Not true -- or Constitutionally possible. The Constitutional responsibility for law enforcement resides in the Executive Branch, i.e., the President.

What Nixon did that was subsequently clamped down on by Congress was the trumping-up of evidenceless charges by way of abuse of Executive privileges. This does not apply to cases in which fully Constitutional black-letter laws were in fact broken. Examples include Hillary Clinton's private email server shenanigans and the Bush-Cheney war crimes committed in violation of properly ratified treaties to which the United States is signatory.

That Hillary put herself in the cross-hairs by violating these laws isn't Trump's fault.

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

shaharazade's picture

just flat out violated all of our rule of law and Obama's administration subsequently normalized and legalized abuse of power. you ask me we're back to Wilson's executive abuse of power and then some. Nixon's wet dream and then some.

I don't care to nit pick the abuse of executive power in isolated historical cases but man o man I do know both past and present what abuse of power looks like. I'm not saying Trump is any better god knows what he would do given power as 'the most powerful man or woman on earth', but until we somehow get the rule of law reinstated, restored this will continue.

How is Wilson's imprisonment of Deb's any worse then Obama declaring Snowden not even an American citizen a spy and an enemy of the state. Lets face it they threw the rule of law right out of here once the Supreme's selected Bush. Incremental abuse of executive power that is not moving forward but backward at an alarming rate and not so incremental at all.

We have no longer a constitution, bill of rights, separation of powers or checks and balances to protect us from the power grabbing assholes that want to rule the world. Like Nancy said it's an unenforceable antique piece of paper. Fuck you Nancy for taking any legal remedy off the table.

Since 9/11 this is no longer a any rule of law at all. It's gone daddy gone and up for grabs by the latest partisan pols and there enablers. Clinton says the Russians are messing with our elections. None of this is Trumps fault he's the scary joker/ clown in the pack. What have they done with Chelsea Manning? hummm.....

Anyway I'm really sick of people not only talking about lesser evils but dragging in the historical incidences of asshole with power from the past. There is no rule of law left our congress and executive branch including Democrat's passed 'laws' that eliminated the pesky checks and balances or separation of powers. Consider your selves lucky that that Clinton appointed liberal justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg doesn't think athletes should be arrested or jailed for their 'foolish' protest against killer militarized cops being given license to kill.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

Bush the younger just flat out violated all of our rule of law and Obama's administration subsequently normalized and legalized abuse of power. you ask me we're back to Wilson's executive abuse of power and then some. Nixon's wet dream and then some.

In very deed.

Sad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

snoopydawg's picture

image_22.png

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Big Al's picture

Ya, we're worse.

Thanks for the history on Debs. 100 years later here we are.

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I had to stop reading a biography of that man, for he was so full of himself and his abilities to win people over to his side that he forgot to care about the effects he was having in doing so. I was just getting to the Versailles Treaty talks when I had to put it down.

Someday I will finish that book, because I want to understand the monsters he helped to create by allowing the rape of Germany, no matter how much they were involved in the initiation of WWI.

In the movie "Lincoln", Abe says to Grant, "Let 'em up easy. I don't want no hangin's." Had Abe been at Versailles, I believe he would have said something similar, knowing to allow rapacious reparation would lead to greater strife.

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Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.

elenacarlena's picture

during the primary - he sounded exactly like Bernie (or vice versa)! Good guy, terrible what happened to him.

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

ThoughtfulVoter's picture

The vast majority of people in my sphere (progressives and rightwingers alike) all believe that the Clintons should be accountable for the crimes they have committed over the years. The latest pass on Hillary is just the final straw for a public who believes in a just and law abiding America. We are aghast that no one has had the balls to hold Hillary accountable.

Trump is showing that backbone by his comment about jail. He is playing to his audience. In shorthand he is saying that Clinton needs to be tried and justly accused and that would be jail. Those of us that he was speaking to, we get his shorthand comment.

I couldn't stand Trump at the beginning of this election process. When close friends said they supported him, I had to hold myself back from laughing out loud at them....Now, after hearing him in both of the debates I have a different view of him. In his own way, in his shorthand comments, he is relating to the public in a way that Clinton never will with all the statistics and policy proposals she spouts. It is a visceral reaction to Trump during the debates...he knows what he's talking about but Hillary is just shooting off her mouth with the latest research her team has put in front of her. Trump comes across as a leader; Hillary as an attack dog. This is from someone not wanting to be persuaded and who disliked both candidates.

Bill was a sexual predator on the taxpayer's dime, and Hillary used every taxpayer funded power available to her to intimidate and discredit those victims so they would not come forward. It speaks to the character of a woman who wants to be president, that she had the FBI intimidate her spouse's rape victims. That is unconscionable to me as a woman who was a victim of a random and violent assualt by a complete stranger. The Clinton's know that Trump is going to bring all this out, because it is what America is concerned about. That is why the opposition research folks are shaking the bushes to find anything about Trump related to sexual misconduct or the appearance thereof. It is to muddy the water on Bill's crimes, but most importantly on Hillary's role in covering them up.

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Trump is a racist bully. Given the awful history of racism and white supremacy in this country, and the neo-confederates he's gathered, I have absolutely no interest in subjecting my family to his rule.

I think I've been pretty clear here and elsewhere that I support Hillary for president. Whatever it takes to stop Trump and send his neo-nazi supporters back to the holes they belong in. I'll be voting for her on the WFP party line. I'm with Bernie on this one.

I'm far closer to Jill Stein on the issues, but I'm a pragmatist and Jill doesn't stand a chance of winning.

All that said, I've never believed in telling people how they should vote. That's your privilege as a citizen, none of my business.

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@subirgrewal

ThoughtfulVoter's picture

On balance though, while both candidates were awful, I would say the night went worse for Clinton.

Clinton meanwhile, had the challenge of trying to get the public to trust her. In this she failed miserably. Smirking frequently when she was being accused by Trump of serious crimes and of blatant and repeated lying, she clumsily tried to dodge some serious and valid charges he made against her. These on-screen actions and lame efforts to change the subject will only succeed in making her less trusted by those voters who have still not made up their minds about which candidate, if any, to back on November 8.

Now of course virtually all politicians lie, and we all know that politicians during campaigns say one thing and then often, once elected, do the opposite. But many of those who are planning to vote for Hillary Clinton are deluding themselves by believing that her promises to help them are real. Clearly, as she has told her big banker bankrollers, they are not. She has no intention of seriously reining in the too-big-to-fail banks, and equally clearly, she was not some innocent internet naif when she had the private server she used illegally during her years as secretary of state erased and “bleached” so her email messages during that period — a time when she and her husband became fabulously wealthy, clearly through infuence peddling — could never be recovered and read.

On balance, it was a bad night for Clinton, who thanks to Wikileaks and her own stumbling and dissembling on stage stands exposed as a crooked politician whose words on the campaign trail cannot be believed, and whose actions show that she considers herself to be above the law.

The whole article here: http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/11/sex-lies-videotape-and-hacked-ema...

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snoopydawg's picture

Middle East and elsewhere to Hillary's rule?
I know that many of her supporters say that she isn't a warmonger, but if you objectively look at her history, not just during her time as sos when she wanted Obama to send more troops to Afghanistan, her pushing for the invasion of Libya and Syria and wanting to create a no fly zone in Syria even if it means a possible war with Russia.
How do you feel about the neo Nazis that the US is backing in Ukraine? The same group of neo Nazis that we fought against during WWII.
Or about how this administration is funding the same Al Quada organization that attacked this country and fought against our troops in Iraq?
Even if Trump loses the election, those neo-confederates aren't going to crawl back in their holes.
It's not just the people in this country who are going to be affected by Hillary.
I know what Trump has said that he will do, but I know what Hillary has done.
I wish that we had other options for someone besides those two to become president.
I know that Jill doesn't have a chance to win the election, but I feel that voting for Hillary is giving her my permission to do what she is going to do.
I can't do that.
I was against the Bush administration's actions, especially when it came to his foreign policy and I'm against both Obama's and Hillary's.
I'm tired of reading headlines about how many more people were killed because of our country's actions.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

or anywhere else. His complete and utter disregard for the concerns of anyone except himself and his racism lead me to believe brown people will not fare well under his rule, no matter where they are.

I think Chomsky's got the formula somewhat right, vote for HRC in a competitive state, vote for whoever you want in a solid blue/red state. Though as I said above, I don't think I'm going to follow his advice, I plan to vote for HRC on the WFP ticket in NY which I expect is a solid blue.

I do wish we had better candidates.

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@subirgrewal

jwa13's picture

The "Honorables" George W. Bush and Barack H. Obama have demonstrated conclusively that American citizens CANNOT be detained or executed without warrant or proven cause, simply on the orders of the President.

Oh, wait --

Nevermind.

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When Cicero had finished speaking, the people said “How well he spoke”.
When Demosthenes had finished speaking, the people said “Let us march”.

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

is truly nauseating.

Hillary has been running around insinuating that any and all critics (including her opponent) are tools of foreign powers. Yet despite her blatant neo-McCarthyism, you stretch a debate comment to compare this virulent accuser to a railroaded victim.

Should Hillary become President, I have little doubt she will use the power of the office to engage in the every same red-baiting Wilsonian shenanigans under which Debs suffered.

Talk about projection.

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

k9disc's picture

"He Kept Us Out of War!"
and 2 years later, Eugene Debs was arrested for Sedition, IIRC.

Here's a link to one of the most incredible essays in modern history:
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/4941/

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

lotlizard's picture

are quite the same, repudiating everything they ever claimed to stand for in order to whitewash where her wealth comes from and who and what she represents.

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who Wilson was. What did shock me, though? Clinton and Lynch meeting on the tarmac before Lynch would have had to make a decision whether to prosecute Hillary. Then she pulled out and left it to Comey, who said other people would have been prosecuted, but not Hillary. Even though Comey said the FBI does not normally make prosecution recommendations. All very unusual and very shady and dishonest of Comey, Lynch and Bill. Again, though, not shocking, given who the Clintons are.

I'd put both Hillary and Bill in jail, but for their deeds, not their words. Funny how we worry more about what Trump says than what she and her husband have actually done.

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N/f

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Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .

If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march