What possible motive does Russia have for hacking elections to favor Clinton over Bernie?
This makes no fucking sense, whatsoever:
9-13-2016 - NBCNEWS - NSA Chief: Potential Russian Hacking of U.S. Elections a Concern - The head of the National Security Agency said Tuesday that the potential for Russia to harm the U.S. electoral process in the upcoming general election is a concern.
8-29-2016 - NBCNEWS - Russians Hacked Two U.S. Voter Databases, Officials Say - Hackers based in Russia were behind two recent attempts to breach state voter registration databases, fueling concerns the Russian government may be trying to interfere in the U.S. presidential election, U.S. intelligence officials tell NBC News. The breaches included the theft of data from as many as 200,000 voter records in Illinois, officials say.
If anyone can come up with a possible motive for the Russians to do this, especially to give an advantage to Hillary, please tell me what it is.
Comments
It's just more crazy-making terrorization, but
if it gets various states and communities to get off their dead asses and overhaul their benighted, primitive, easily hackable (they've known this for at least 16 years but nobody gave a shit until "Oh Noes, The Russians!") voting systems, it may possibly do some good. Possibly.
More likely they'll make a few cosmetic tweaks and call it good. Until the next hacking scandal.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
I think it's typical deflection away from the actual hacker
beneficiary, Team Clinton. If you're all worried about Those Eeeeevil Russkies, you're not paying any attention to the Clinton sleights of hand.
Though I do agree with this:
I doubt they have time to get it together by next month. If anything, this is going to create more chaos on this Election Day. Which is probably the actual goal...
they want to bring homeland security
to run the federal elections sooner or later.
that'll solve everything. /s
bygorry
Certainly not worried about the Ruskies.
Just looking to show that there is no logical reason for them to do this, and show that yes, Clinton/DNC has the only motive for the hacking.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Oh, I completely agree
I despise our media with a white-hot hatred, what they're doing to the people of this country with their propaganda and flat-out lies. Fucking traitors, propping the main traitor up. It makes me sick...
Oh no.
It's an excuse for handing our elections over to the Department of Homeland Security as an "essential industry" under the Patriot Act.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/election-cyber-security-georgia-22...
this is the PTB attempting to co-opt the fight for election justice, just as they've already done a fairly good job co-opting the fight for racial justice and gender justice.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
One of Shill's biggest problems, and one she can't overcome,
is she repugnant to millions on BOTH sides of the aisle. Her supporters are mainly the 'first woman president' fanatics and the well-to-do. So if she's hit with some big bombshells, she's in trouble. She can't afford to loose that many supporters. And she knows how much stuff is still out there. Who knows what will be the straw that breaks the camel's back?
Look how hard they keep trying to scare with with all the talk about Russia. They're nervous and they're willing to go as far as antagonize Russia, who we're already in a pissing match with and who's not Iraq or Syria, lesser nations that we couldn't control either.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
Unless Russia is itching for war
in the middle east, which seems highly incredulous, there would be no reason for them to act to install the very person who salivates to make that dream come true.
Cold war bullshit, regurgitated by a frantic power hungry sociopath.
The internal polling must be off-the-charts.
exactly.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Perhaps
they're setting up an excuse to vacate some election results? "Trump didn't win, the Russians hacked our machines!"
Innoculation.
That's my theory. The Clinton camp is scared. They don't know what Assange has. He may very well be bluffing but they know that there's some pretty bad stuff out there. If he releases damaging information, they will claim that is doctored and that Putin did it.
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.
Oh yeah, the act of putting the story out there
makes perfect sense, as deflection, innoculation. But the story itself makes no sense at all.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
I just posted this in CADemocrat's diary:
A clever hacker knows how not to leave a trail and how to leave a misleading trail.
I haven't heard any accounts of hacking that separate the primary hacks from the subsequent hacks. We do know the primary hacks were of great benefit to Hillary, so if they are all from the same "guys" they are rigging the general for her too.
no sense at all
No part of this election makes any sense at all!
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Just a little tweak ......
No part of this 'election' makes any sense at all!
I was going to use another word.....
..... no part of this erection makes any sense at all -- no matter how we vote, we all are equally fucked!
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
A lot of the Clinton's tactic
A lot of the Clinton's tactic make no sense - but people who are that destructive and those who support such destructiveness have no sense to begin with, so what else are they going to produce but destructive nonsense?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I've been kind of astounded
at the stupidity of the Clinton campaign. They are freaking obvious.
We'll see whether she wins or not pretty soon. Politicians have banked on the ignorance of the general public and won plenty of times. I was astounded that Reagan was ever elected, much less W. Twice.
A couple of theories
1) Diversionary tactic to direct attention away from real vote rigging done by the DNC in the primaries.
2) Setting Russia up as the latest boogeyman that must be dealt with. They are softening up the American public for an escalated war in Syria and eventually Iran as proxy wars against Russia. Think pipelines.
3) To put the NSA in charge of all elections in the US.
All of this scares the crap out of me.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
All of the Above
It's the all-of-the-above approach. You know, like with resource extraction (i.e., exploitation).
"There’s nothing revolutionary about a movement that retreats into an endorsement of the lesser of two evils." Scott McLarty @ CounterPunch
Agreed, those are local motives
for TPTB to put the story out there. What I am looking for is an actual Russian motive for doing the hacking...i.e. some reason to say that the story of Russian Hackers is not utter bullshit.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
And you won't find it, because there isn't one
IMO, you are spot-on. The story about Russians hacking this is a complete and utter LIE. It's a setup, because as noted upthread, they're setting up to steal the GE.
Exactly
There isn't one.
I think the story they're selling is that Putin is having things hacked to help Trump because he's in league with Putin while Hillary is ready to start a nuclear war to stop his efforts to conquer our world.
Now that I think about it maybe Putin should be monitoring US elections. Wish he was there for the primaries.
Russian hackers' motives
I'd say: if there are any Russians hacking our election, they're doing it, not for some nefarious State-sponsored cause, but for good old-fashioned money. (Of which Klan Clintons has plenty, please remember.) And maybe to keep the hackers' skillsets up to date in the event they will be needed later for, well, some nefarious State-sponsored cause.
Again, I say if, and that's a might big if. In reality, lunachickie is probably right on the mark when she says:
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
My theories agree
with yours gulfgal. 'Diversionary tactic to direct attention away from real vote rigging done by the DNC in the primaries.' I also think that it's a way to cover the November rigging that's in the works. 2 and 3 are an added bonus as they not only can say Putin did it while getting people all fired up for the new heated up cold war. #3 is the one that scares me the most. On the other hand the NSA and all the alphabet spooks have most likely been messing with every aspect of our government. They seem to have free range since they took away the rule of law, checks and balances, and declared preemptive war on the whole of humanity and the planet itself.
I think you hit on it 100% GG
I don't even know if I believe the government when they tell me that these systems are being hacked.
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams
"Setting Russia up as the latest boogeyman..."
That's the one I believe is most likely. No more Cold War or Bin Laden around to instill the required fear to control the plebes. It's all a pretext for more war. Look at the recent bombing by US planes that 'accidentally' killed many Syrian army soldiers who were fighting ISIS, thus breaking the ceasefire that was in place, and how Hillary's very own Victoria Nuland and friends engineered a coup in Ukraine, then blamed Russia for major aggression in Crimea when in reality the people there voted overwhelmingly to rejoin Russia. Small 'd' democracy is such a hassle for our oligarchical, plutocratic, corporatocracy. Worldwide Full Spectrum Domination (FSD), militarily as well as economically, is the Killary Doctrine. I am far more afraid of Killary causing wide spread unnecessary death than I am Trump.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK | "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine." - G. B. Shaw Bernie/Tulsi 2020
Not the NSA, but DHS--otherwise, yeah, exactly.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Whatever it is, the Russians don't have a clue.
Those leaks are amateur hour. That's not a strategy for election "undermining?" Plus, there is no purpose. It's the quintessential hacker ethos.
When asked about it, Lavrov drew a blank, then barked with laughter when he figured it out. "Well, I don't want to use four-letter words," he began, then leaned in and asked the reporter, "What was in DNC email leak?"
Funny, pretty sure that I hit
Funny, pretty sure that I hit preview and I did get preview - and a duplicate?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I came up with three one time. That's my personal best in the
Dupe-cathalon.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
Lol, sooner or later I'll no
Lol, sooner or later I'll no doubt achieve three. In many cases, it's probably repeating great posts; in mine, generally immortalizing typo's, so maybe sometime when I have extra, or when one of the cats investigates the keyboard? (They generally type better than I do, though.)
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
How about all of the above?
How about all of the above? This multi-purposing of scapegoats/targets has long been typical of polluting and other industries, such as those running the Clinton campaigns and influencing the Clinton's mind-set and policy. Lay waste to others, want not personally.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Because Hillary Was Likely to Lose to Drumpf?
Heh, couldn't be that one. She will trounce Drumpf... Believe me.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
It will only look as though
It will only look as though she lost by all indications other than those in the corporate media?
Oh, wait, her campaign and all of the corporate interests working in and toward Her Royal Coronation know how to cheat and some billionaire/corporate donors enticed away from the Repubs by her out-Republicaning them in her promises may have had a lot of Republican practice in the past.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
2 possibilities:
1, she's playing the old Republican game of do evil and blame your opponent - they plan on rigging the election like they did the primary.
2, if she loses she can blame Putin.
On to Biden since 1973
Agree, doh, but it's also setting up a basis to contest a Trump
win, from what I hear from national reporters on XM Radio.
They have been wringing their hands for 2-4 months, blaming DT for the public's loss of respect for public institutions/government. The Elites appear to be terrified that DT might not accept FSC as President (if she wins). So, their mouthpieces--MSM reporters--are floating a story regarding Russian hacking. (to my knowledge, they have no concrete evidence, unless it's recent, or, it has not been released to the public)
IMO, their goal is to lay the ground to overturn a Trump presidency if he should win. (IOW, Bush V Gore redux)
Some variation of the above is discussed almost daily on one XM program which features national campaign/congressional reporters from NYT, WaPo, etc.
Regarding Russia having a motive, I won't discount that Putin might prefer DT over FSC, considering his poor relationship FSC (and PBO, as well). And, DT constants talks about the instability and chaos that the Bush and 'O' Administrations have created in the Middle East.
Unlike the neocons, DT emphasizes going after the terrorist groups, not nations (for the most part). And, he would probably tend to stay out of Russia's situation with Crimea. His rhetoric is more belligerent toward Muslims/terrorist organizations; but he is less interventionist, and constantly criticizes our heavy troop presence in many countries/empire building. Including the great cost to the US, as a result of US adverturism. Or, so he claimed during the Republican debates.
My conclusion, based upon the various breathless scenarios that many MSM corporatist reporters are hyping on a daily basis, is that they hope to sow enough doubt about the hacking of our election process, that the PtB can rig/overturn the election results, if Trump wins. (Without massive protests in the streets occurring.)
Obviously, I don't have a piece from print media that I can produce to back this. It's conjecture on my part. But, I can't imagine any other motive for the MSM's constant harping and propagandizing on these topics.
I do know, that I'll be more than happy when this ordeal is finally over.
The end result of a FSC Presidency (IMO) is that the Dem Party Base will be cheering on FSC/Democrats as she further decimates the Social Safety net; whereas, they'll be screaming their bloody heads off if DT/Republicans do the same.
*Sigh*
Bottom line, I expect to hear calls of the election process being 'illegitimate' if DT is elected--due to Russian hackers.
And that would likely result in a either recall election, or going to the SCOTUS for resolution. (IMO)
Mollie
“I believe in the redemptive powers of a dog’s love. It is in recognition of each dog’s potential to lift the human spirit, and, therefore, to change society for the better, that I fight to make sure every street dog has its day.”
--Stasha Wong, Secretary, Save Our Street Dogs (SOSD)
National Mill Dog Rescue (NMDR) - Dogs Available For Adoption
Update: Misty May has been adopted. Yeah!
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Sorry, disregard comment above. The topic on XM Radio
for several months has been the possible hacking of the US elections by the Russians--so, I misread your premise to be Clinton versus Trump, not Clinton versus Sanders.
[Edit: Edited original comment to correct the HTML for Misty May's image.]
Mollie
“I believe in the redemptive powers of a dog’s love. It is in recognition of each dog’s potential to lift the human spirit, and, therefore, to change society for the better, that I fight to make sure every street dog has its day.”
--Stasha Wong, Secretary, Save Our Street Dogs (SOSD)
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
You might be right all the same
Wait and see what happens if the Orange One gets to 270+.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
That's crazy, they'll never pull it off so easily....
All hell WILL break loose. His supporters are off the charts, in terms of "they don't believe the media" when it comes to them saying anything about him. Maybe they think they can do that, but they are quite wrong. There will be many, many bodies in the streets.
Hey, Luna--I agree that any attempt at 'general election
rigging' would be met with great hostility--from both sides of the political spectrum. And, with street protests. (One would hope--peaceful, of course.)
I only meant to infer that I believe that the MSM 'hopes' that they can propagandize the public enough, to head off any such protests/public pushback. After all, they are incredibly arrogant, as a whole.
In short, they're in La-La Land if they think they have that much power and/or credibility with the American public, especially, after this election cycle.
Mollie
“I believe in the redemptive powers of a dog’s love. It is in recognition of each dog’s potential to lift the human spirit and therefore– to change society for the better, that I fight to make sure every street dog has its day.”
--Stasha Wong, Secretary, Save Our Street Dogs (SOSD)
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Or we could have a repeat of the
Brooks Brothers Revolution.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
If Swillery cried "That nasty Putin riggged the voting machines"
A quarter of the public would yell for war and the Pentagon and 3 letter guys would intervene. Swillery would be led away in a straightjacket and normalcy would return in a generation or so. Another quarter of the country would say "No way RWNJ scumbags!" A few families would be broken up, a few DK kool-aid drinkers would get shot by RWNJ scumbags, and normalcy would return in a generation or so, And 1/2 of America would say,"Year, right Swillery. Here's your sandwich sign and bullhorn and there's a streeetcorner; now go away."
On to Biden since 1973
Nice thought, but Obama's
Nice thought, but Obama's already been positioning missiles for nuclear war-crimes, all Ready For Hillary... Draft's been expanded, or will be, to women, in order to double the size of the
cannon-fodderarmy; the push for the (partially 'limited' Nuclear') War On The World to begin is on.Never vote for evil - you really do get what you ask for.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
When they get caught rigging
When they get caught rigging the election, they'll keep blaming Putin.
'PUTIN HYPMOTIZED ME! Oh, well, let the cheat stand and we'll fix it next time,.'
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
See above. Or here, below.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Totally False Story to prep the public (and provide a scapgoat)
.
The big powers here are planning to RIG (steal) the Election for Hillary, just as they did previously in her primary contest against Bernie Sanders.
But they know that Donald Trump (unlike Sanders, and unlike John Kerry, and unlike Al Gore), is not likely to just be silent, and disappear quietly on cue. So they are advancing a false story in advance to pre-emptively blame Russia for any voter irregularities and Exit Poll mismatches that are found .... to prep (brainwash) the public so that there is a "fall guy" in place for the broken Election (should it be widely detected).
This also fits in nicely with the crooked Neocon and Clinton agenda to whip up public outrage against Russia and attack them Militarily over Syria. They have in fact already planted a false story about "Russia hacking the DNC" (remember that?) to cover-up the fact that the DNC and Clinton cheated Bernie Sanders by design.
So this is just one more example here. It already worked once, so they'll try it again.
But the truth is that it is Hillary Clinton and her puppet masters who is going to hack Voter Databases and steal the Election. It's already happened during this same Election season (with Sanders), and it will happen again.
They just want to get it blamed on Russia (like the DNC email leak) .... since the American public is unfortunately stupid enough to believe it.
The real enemy is within.
That draws a lot of attention to the pre-crime
If they keep spreading this lying propaganda about Russia… all they are laying the groundwork for is a new election. The loser and supporters will certainly demand a new election if logical discrepancies exist. Because Russia, the great evil.
Actually, I'd like to see that happen. What fun.
??
There is no process in this Country for a "new election".
We already saw that back in 2000, that if widespread voter repression, counting problems, and corruption take place in this Country .... it doesn't matter -- voter rights do not matter (Supreme Court Justice, Antonin Scalia, even said that publicly) and there is no legal redress here.
In this Country, the 1% class can transparently cheat anytime that they want to. And whether people actually believe that the scapegoat is really the guilty party or not (whether it be Russia, Bin Laden, or Lee H. Oswald) ... also does not matter.
In this Country, there is no truth and reconciliation, and there is no justice or "liberty" for all.
Word!
hmm
well, if i might CT a bit,
-putin knows trump and making the democrats look bad isn't any sort of negative.
-bernie-as-socialist is actually not any good for the capitalist russians who are actually totally capitalist, to the extent that putin might be the first pure capitalist world leader. if you've paid attention to how russia is globalizing pretty prolifically, this shouldn't be a surprise.
-the clinton foundation is extremely supportive of russian interests (outside of mother russia, of course)
-clinton is looking to re-(un?)ignite the cold war, so we can all jingoism right up to the nukes flying. this will be incredibly good for the MIC, and will cause a significant population drop at the same time. honestly, in the long game, this wouldn't be a terrible thing, at least for the potential survival of, you know, humans.
-and of course the not so crazy CT, russia didn't hack shit, was probably handed info from the chinese for military assets and general confirmation of chinese ownership of the oil in the south china sea. trillions of dollars in oil. russia has some pretty good reasons to be friendly with at least the EU at this point, but trillions of dollars in oil is going to make any dog sway.
-
GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG
Ah, finally.
All imaginative possibilities, but pretty weak reasons on a risk vs. reward basis, no?
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
these days
it seems like you can't discount anything that might earn someone a couple of bucks.
because of course nobody is ever going to wind up in jail. heh.
GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG
Mind if I rephrase one thing,
Mind if I rephrase one thing, with a few additions?
-putin knows Hillary, who, as Secretary of State, made a huge packet of millions for the Clinton slush Fundation by (indirectly) assisting in 20% of America's already-inadequate-for-power-plants strategic uranium resources being sold ultimately to the Russian government and making the democrats look bad is sort of redundant.
And Putin knows that she's a power-hungry, greed-blinded psychopath who cannot be trusted, as do all other foreign leaders. Not to mention many of the rest of us.
Does Putin want his country and people taken over, drained and despoiled by billionaires and corporations making global law, along with the rest of ours?
Or would he prefer that America become an actual democracy rather than a corporate-run military empire maximizing pollution, destruction, power and profits for the few, in the process killing off life and oxygen production on the planet within decades?
Even assuming that the 'limited' nuclear war-crimes discussed against Russia, China and, as seems likely, any other country capable of defending itself against a conventional military invasion/attack for corporate benefit, are actually PR only to further enrich the MIC.
I suspect that Putin and other foreign leaders would be immensely relieved to be dealing with a sane, sensible and politically seasoned President Bernie who understands and respect concepts like diplomacy, integrity and other people's boundaries, rather than some psychopathic madwoman hurling threats, drones, military forces and nukes on orders from her donors.
Ask yourself, why should not the multiple countries under extreme threat from Corporate America not band together in first strikes to try to perhaps save at least some of their own countries - and some fraction of the Earth - from this madwoman? Why should they wait for her first strikes to occur?
Hillary lives in a country which has not been invaded in modern times and which is normally in no danger of this, but if she threatens everyone else in the world as President - as she would - the odds are high that there goes North America in a series of mushroom clouds and MAD and almost certainly life and oxygen production around the planet as well - but a cossetted psychopathic bully will never get get this part where doing bad things can sometimes have repercussions for the perpetrator as well.
Never vote for evil again. It does no good.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Hillary and the neocons live in delusional bubbles
I think Hillary and the neocon establishment live in delusion world of American military invincibility. They have never experienced war nor have even have historical nor institutional memories of war. The Russians and Chinese have it.
I was reading an article which of course I forgot to bookmark in which there was a discussion of effects of nuclear war. Some scientists speculated that just an nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan could lead to a world wide nuclear winter. The horrors pile up even without every nuclear bomb going off.
I have this image of Clinton supporters at TOP when learning that in 20 minutes nuclear missiles will hit the United States them saying "thank gawd Hillary is a strong resolute leader. honey, what's for dinner."
kudos for recognizing
that TPTB know population reduction is essential for planetary survival.
They kept overpopulation up as long as they could, because capitalism requires ever-increasing demand.
Their next choice is fiefdoms, once capitalism can no longer function at all. All of us serfs, all of them hiding from us.
I don't say this much anywhere in my private life. They already think I've got a tin foil hat because I know the primary was rigged. Maybe they're right. Today I got "you worry too much!". That I know is true.
Russia has no plausible motive to hack our elections, IMHO.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Well, to favor someone that would further their interests
would at least be semi-plausible. But not Clinton.
So, I am going with "So What Plausible Reason is the for the Russians to Interfere with Our Elections in order to Favor Hillary?", when confronted with such bogus accusations in the future.
And thanks, most everyone else, for listing all the plausible Clinton/DNC/Third Way/New Democrat reasons for making the accusation.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
What the Hillbots would say is:
In spite of the anomalies, there is absolutely no evidence that the primaries were hacked in Hillary's favor by Russians or anyone else. Get over it you pathetic Bernie supporters and bow down to the anointed one. However, Putin is evil and Russians have hacked into our [pathetic-my term not the Hillbots] voting system [no real evidence but say it enough and people will believe it] so they could make evil Donald win. Donald is a friend of Putin and other evil Russians so if Donald wins it must be evil Russians rigging the votes. Plus, Russians are evil and we need to increase military spending and expand NATO because they are evil, at least the ones that do not contribute to the Clinton Foundation.
That is probably what they would say.
It would be simple enough to reply that the hacking was allegedly done during the Primaries, and has been offered up to account for various anomalies in the voting that appear to have hurt Bernie. They are making the accusations of hacking NOW, before the November election...the hacking could only have affected the Primary race.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Easy.
Who would have been more likely to beat Trump? Quick. Three guesses and the first two don't count.
Why would they want someone to beat Trump?
He likes Putin, and has talked (somewhat erratically) about ether scrapping, reducing, or shifting NATO away from Russia.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
To quote your own title:
"What possible motive does Russia have for hacking elections to favor Clinton over Bernie?"
Gee, I can't think of any reason Russia might want Putin's bff/poodle to win!!!
I must have misread your first response, the first time.
Yes, I think Bernie was much more likely to have beaten Trump. Which is the ONLY reason for the Russians to have done this that makes any sense. And would be the most fun reason to point out to the Hilbots.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Indeed
And I hope everyone keeps pointing it out to them. It's really the only thing that not only makes sense, but that corresponds with the reality of what's been found by everyone who has dug through the code left behind by the hackers.
Really? like who?
Who announced the hack had Russia's signature on it?
That doesn't have the ring of truth, to me.
On the basis of what?
I know this goes against the prevailing conspiracy-theory groupthink around here, but really...
Margarita Jaitner, Swedish Defence University
Crowdstrike
Thomas Rid, Department of War Studies, King's College London
Trend Micro
iSight (tentative conclusion)
Jason Healey, Columbia University
FireEye
etc. etc.
I am intensely skeptical by nature and very much a realist, so when there's a conflict between hard evidence presented by cautious computer scientists who know what they're doing and armchair conspiracy theorists, you should be able to guess who I will be listening to and who I will be dismissing.
On the basis that I don't want to hear about US officials
…confirming the cyber threat du jour from North Korea to Russia to China.
The only reason for the US to pull Russia out of a hat — when Russia has nothing to gain and more important work than tweaking the shameful US election — is to push anti-Russia propaganda.
These were not high security targets. Most anyone from MIT could crack it. Certainly nothing for anybody's cyberforces to brag about. The only cui bono I see goes to the Pentagon and the Neocons who run the permanent Federal government. They have every reason to juice their proxy wars against Russia, and whip up American fears and hatred.
I've been tracking this for a long while and I like the Romanian for this job, as does the buzz in certain non-official circles. He's not Russian no matter how many stooges the US gets to repeat it.
And the article you cited may be one of the most insidious and depraved propaganda pieces I've seen in a long time. It depressing, filled with lies, disinformation, and innuendo. The authors saw nothing of the code and are merely regurgitating the Pentagon Propaganda they were fed, tossing in deplorable propaganda on unrelated topics, like Ukraine. They're spooks in an off shore think tank on the US taxpayer's dime, paid to lie to the American people. Having their spew reluctantly dropped here by you.
So, that begs the question, who are you? How did you fall for this?
http://theconversation.com/putins-cyber-play-what-are-all-these-russian-...
More unsupported armchair conspiracy theories
Like I said, that's the groupthink on this whole site, and that's a lot easier than actually thinking for yourself, isn't it?
Well, if you are the assiduous realist you claim to be,
can you explain why no one in the media is segregating the primary hacks from the subsequent hacks?
Because, based on the evidence, the primary hacks clearly and largely benefited Hillary. Why would the Russians favor that warhawk?
If the propaganda about Russia is true, then it follows that they want Hillary to win for some inexplicable reason and are rigging the GE.
On the other hand, whoever rigged for Hillary isn't necessarily Russia. After all, hackers know how to leave no trail or false trails. Maybe those hacking into all the voter registration files are the same people who helped Hilliary declare her false victory in the primary? What are the implications that Russia is being blamed should she win? What if Trump should win?
I don't mind de-legitimizing either candidate who wins. The salient point will be is to thwart whatever winner as best possible.
What did we do to deserve this deplorable basket of presidential candidates?
Duplicate comment deleted by HenryWallace.
So far, the original government story is a conspiracy theory.
FYI: "conspiracy-theory groupthink" is a broadbrush smear since this site is host to many kinds of opinions. And speaking of this site being a host, I guess that makes all posters here guests of the owners. Therefore, it behooves us not to be rude to each other. Finally, a theory is a theory, period.
People, including you, have nothing but theories on this subject because, for months, media and officials have been saying things like "Russia (meaning the government or Putin) is likely behind this without making a definite claim or explaining why they blame Russia or Putin. http://caucus99percent.com/comment/187074#comment-187074
If you can refute any theory, by all means, go on ahead and do so. But please don't imagine that using a term like "conspiracy-theory groupthink" is impressive, let alone dispositive.
Just for kicks I looked at Trend Micro
From what I can tell of their website, they in no way claim to have seen or investigated the original hack. They have a paper where they write about Russian cybergangs and this about their sources:
The pdf is actually informative not about Russian hackers, but about the techniques of hacking in general. Trend Micro just could have easily said it was the Outer Mongolians who did the hack. But again, a decent paper about hacking techniques.
At least with Trend Micro they have no direct experience of these supposed hacks. Quite frankly, some of their stuff looks like fear mongering over Russian threats to generate business. I remember somebody saying the same thing about Crowdstrike which claimed they knew all about these Russian hacks and their material on it was more marketing about buying their services. Sorta reminds me of right wing hysteria about Obama taking guns away which caused a huge run on guns and ammo causing major shortages of ammo for popular calibers.
What also seemed odd to me is that in reading the accusations about Russian hacking, they are nearly invincible in hacking any system, and yet they leave clues like files with Cyrillic characters on the attacked hard disk drives--this I believe according to Crowdstrike. Before the Russian hacker hysteria there were incidents of mass data breaches and the culprits were never found. From what I can tell with not too much searching the Target hackers one of the largest ever have not been found although some people have been arrested for having forged credit cards, but those numbers may have been purchased by credit card thieves. And yet, it is immediately apparent that Russians are the guilty hackers in all of these cases. From reading about the Target hackers, hackers are not identified through the hack, but when they do something like try to sell credit card numbers.
The russian government's signature? Defniitely? Unspoofable?
Can you provide some links to direct quotes to that effect, preferably quotes not taken of context?
To be clear: A hack by one or more people who appear to be hacking from within Russia does not equal the Russian government's being implicated. And, btw, are we sure that none of the sources you cite are totally disinterested in anything but the truth of this matter? Because we do know that the US government is not above colluding with private parties to deceive. http://www.salon.com/2016/10/03/u-s-paid-p-r-firm-540-million-to-make-fa...
Probably not other governments either.
BTW, people who are truly rigorous, agenda free, don't suspect only one story being put out there.
In that case, they would have gone after Bernie, who was
defeating Hillary in head to head polls against Trump, often by a healthy margin. Or Bernie, Hillary and maybe even O'Malley,, which would have made the most sense from an "insurance" standpoint.
Bernie.
http://caucus99percent.com/comment/187087#comment-187087
Or, given an honest vote count, almost anyone. It's not as though Trump is a great candidate. In fact, he's probably just about the only candidate with enough money and name recognition to get into a Presidential race that Hillary could defeat.
Aside from your "why?" question
There's the other obvious item. How come the NSA has been entirely uninterested in election fraud right up until it threatens Hillary. Then suddenly we have RUSSIA!!!!!!
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Yeah, it's all pretty transparent.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
You ask what is a subversive question.
In the propaganda war against Putin and Slavic horde, you ask for a logical response. You posit that Putin and his minions are rational actors and have a purpose to their actions. This is not how it works. The rules of the Red Scare is that the answer must be religious or really unprovable psychobabble. For example, when I ask why would Russian want to invade Lithuania a country totally devoid of critical resources, a port they don't need, and an invasion that might require huge numbers of boots on the ground, all done with a military budget 1/10 the US? The answers that typically come back are that Putin is evil or he has some Napoleon/Stalin complex. Without reverting to these types of explanations, the logic of invading Lithuania or Poland or Estonia, or Latvia or Finland makes no sense from a policy nor practical point of view.
But democrats have found their general election version of the political fiction known as "Bernie Bros". Only problem of course is that this political fiction supported by the mass media lays the foundation for Americans accepting war with Russia.
Many posters have given good multiple reasons why for this political fiction known as Putin. For me, one of the more compelling reasons is to move the mass media off the content of any revelations of the hacks. Look to the Russians to be the new Nader.
By the way, EU power brokers have used before this Putin fiction to explain and cover up their own local problems (much like right wingers thought the civil rights movement was communist inspired). English pols said Putin was behind Brexit. Putin was blamed for the refugee crisis in Europe. It has gone to ridiculous extremes like Putin directed drunken Russians at the Euro games to become violent and thus mess with the Brexit vote.
But having worked many an election inside the polling places, the only people who can cheat the system are other Americans. And in fact, this whole diversion by basically the democrats is giving the gop an open pass on all of their shenanigans. Here is a decent link explaining why the Russians cannot change the results of our elections.
http://fortune.com/2016/08/09/voting-machines-hackers/
http://time.com/4500216/election-voting-machines-hackers-security/
All true.
Except that I think Putin is merely a convenient scapegoat, in this case. I suppose this adds to his perceived villainy, which will come in useful, later.
But again, this answers the question, "Why would the Democrats Blame Putin" rather than "Why would the Russians do this."
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
chercher de l'argent
This is over my head
Even when I'm not fighting the flu. But follow the money and it starts to make sense (in my opinion).
Trump has or had campagn staff on Putin's payroll.
If Trump can dissolve NATO and lift US sanctions against Russia, then Putin gets what he wants (annexation of Ukraine (and elsewhere) and Trump can continue making money in Russia with whatever gravitas being president would lend him.
Sorry if this doesn't make sense. Take it with grains of salt because I'm not thinking clearly on Tamiflu, but power and money, money and power. Here's a good place to find more information: http://putintrump.org/
In the context of advancing Hillary in the Primaries
Against Bernie, no, it doesn't make much sense. To me. I could see Putin tinkering to advance Trump, but not Hillary...and especially not in the Primaries.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Why
Would Putin want Bernie Sanders to win primaries and win the nomination? Bernie as a candidate would have defeated Trump by a huge margin.
Where and how is Putin trying to "advance" Hillary?
Which raises the question.
Since Russian hackers have near god-like powers to hack into any election computer, why didn't they alter the results so Bernie won the primaries and eliminate Clinton who once called the Russian leader "Hitler". Why did the Russians stand by and allow one of the most militaristic anti-Russian pols win her primary?
And for real? The site you refer to has the hammer and sickle on it?
Bernie Sanders
Is no friend of Putin. Hillary, on the other hand, is weak and reactive. Much easier for Putin to manipulate or even blackmail. If you were Putin, having years of your adversary's email could be quite an advantage.
I found that site via Forbes.
Why is Hillary weak and reactive?
I see her as rather cold and calculating.
And why presume Putin want to 'manipulate' or blackmail anyone? Why not, instead, presume he is acting to protect Russia's interests, just like any national leader is expected to do - and that he would prefer to come to amicable agreements with his neighbors and rivals, just like our own leaders claim to want?
Cold and calculating are not inconsistent with weak and reactive
To the contrary. Neither is manipulative, deceptive, do anything to win, crooked, etc.
Inconsistent with weak and reactive is "strong leader." A strong leader doesn't wait until the SCOTUS is just about ready to rule (in 2013) that equal marriage is a Constitutional right before he or she
finally recantsorganically evolves from opposition to equal marriage.Think about the people you've met who often say that they have trouble standing up to others (Itself manipulative). Then think of those who never say that.
As I have observed on occasion, I can handle the strong on my own, but heaven help me against the "weak."
So, if Russian hacking gave Hillary the nomination
Do you think the DNC will recognize that and give Sanders the nomination he was denied by Russian hackers?
Alright, you can stop the laughing now. I know they don't have the integrity for that.
Anyway, if Russia did indeed secure the nomination for Hillary, the only things I can think of for their reasoning in doing so would be either they want Trump to win (maybe hoping that in doing so he will effectively destroy the US government's functionality), or he's expecting that Hillary will give him justifiable reason to engage the US militarily.
Movie of the Week: Nuclear Winter vs Global Warming
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=nuclear+winter+vs+g...
Now here's a real Kissingerian answer to the question. Hillary must happen to launch a "limited" nuclear strike to reduce 3rd world populations and create a nuclear winter to halt global warming.
It's the ultimate sci-fi answer to a complex problem -- the only one Hollywood seems to know -- We're facing an existential threat? Bring in the nukes. TINA. "We think the price is worth it."
I was surprised to find 332,000 hits on this phrase, and even more surprised to find it at mainstream corporate publications.
I am in no way suggesting this is THE plan, or even a probability, but it sure makes for some good fiction, and totally fits with Kissinger vs an existential threat.
With this major story arc I could write my screenplay now.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
What SciFi?
Wars of attrition IS what happens when Western empires face major social crises. WWI, WWII cases in point... Napoleonic Wars before that. 150 years of religious wars before that... Why should this time be any different?
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