The Political Stockholm Syndrome

This from Cenk Uygur

You supported Bernie in the primaries. Are you supporting Hillary now? Will you vote for her?

There's a difference between voting for her and supporting her. I will most certainly vote for Hillary Clinton. No, I do not remotely support her. I will be looking to fight her on day one.

That's a mighty fine piece of twaddle or faux-logic if you prefer.

To my mind it's a bit like "I will surrender to keep up the fight".

If I was cruel, I would just say it was utter bullshit and self deception in abject defeat whilst still trying to keep your viewers.

If I am kinder I would say it is the sheer weight of having to hold your nose when voting has deceived you that it doesn't really matter, because you can somehow still fight back.

How has that worked?

Obama's only "success" was to pass a piece of slightly modified Republican legislation bizarrely called the "Affordable Care Act" whilst ditching virtually every progressive idea before it was even presented. Well, at least we avoided "worse" in the primaries last time around, this worse is now being presented as the "lesser of the two evils".

We will fight her from a pre-lost position, its like an army deliberately marching into a box canyon with enemy artillery all around the cliff tops. Hmm, "charge of the light brigade" " into the valley of death" ring any bells? Anyone?

Cenk has repeated the common "mantra" of self-delusion, it seems to have magical properties as every 4 years it comes right back into the fore. To avoid repeating it ad infinitum one has to stop using it completely.

During the primary she said to us "children, you cant have good things because you are silly"

During the Presidential debate she tried to make Trump appear just as much of a warmonger as she is.

Her "supporters" are just non stop attacking a buffoon rather than making a case of why she would be a good president, because in their heart of hearts they know she wont. If they have to attack the left in so doing, well there is always fun in that.

Every non vote for Hillary is two votes for Trump!

The only way to stop this fiasco is to say, enough is enough.

You may think the candidates are bad enough this time around, what about the next? No doubt the "not as bad" mantra will once again be dusted off and given new magical sprinkles.

Never forget!

Surrendering now means we can still fight on!

Oh wait.......

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it's always the same plate of shit. Always "the most important election in our lifetimes!" Scare the masses into submission. And, as dick-nose Bill Clinton said of disillusioned progressives, "they have nowhere else to go"
Sorry dick-nose, I have Jill Stein...

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Lily O Lady's picture

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

riverlover's picture

This time: So much space between candidate choices was offered for Dems (how's my Yoda-speak?) and then voting irregularities were noted but officially ignored. And the "winner" expected the voters for the "loser" to fall right in. Not me. In my voting lifetime (McGovern first vote) I stayed Dem until July. And got sick of the foundation of the Party, and moreso of the Foundation.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Lily O Lady's picture

candidate of the 1% is reinforcing a negative behavior.

In Clinton's case that behavior is crapping all over progressives, telling us that she doesn't need us but we'd damn-well better vote for her because Trump is scary. Trump's bad behavior is that he's bullsh1t in a suit capped off by a bird's nest.

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

A Free trade Warmongering Republican versus A Crazy Spoilt Extremist Brat in 2016

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kharma's picture

it's amazing that the Democratic party is trying to force a Free trade Warmongering Republican on us as an alternative to the whacked.

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

Wink

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Solidarity forever

As I was reading your comment I was trying to figure out who you were describing. Love it. Biggrin

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Phoebe Loosinhouse's picture

Very interesting campaign strategy - let's get her in office so we can impeach her! It seems a lot more direct to simply not elect her in the first place.

The idea of Clinton and her minions invading government to bend it for their own purposes depresses me beyond measure. I'm starting to think that Trump might be inept and corrupt, but it's a fresh ineptness and corruption. At least it won't feel like Groundhog Day and having to watch Hill and Bill and Donna Brazille and all the old gang in their old stomping grounds.

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" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "

Lily O Lady's picture

anything forever.

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

riverlover's picture

minutes. It makes me uncheck my sanity box to talk with her daily. All new, all the time, that's tiresome to me. Typo fixed, but this is good:

allnewallthetime

That must be delivered in a happylilt. Think how many microseconds we could save with no spacebar in our lives? It is needed for clear communication of words and also for mindset.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

vomit inducing.

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Let her disappoint you

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is under the impression a Pres Trump will have some effect. With Trump in office Congress will just have free rein to do as they wish. Kinda like the last eight years.
I'm convinced Hillary knows where too many bodies (metaphorical and literal) are buried she'll have no trouble pushing her personal agenda. And with our Congress she has built-in deniability.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Defeating Clintons, means finally, finally, getting rid of them. Maybe, just maybe, reclaiming the Democratic party, maybe not. But nothing, not one thing, would get me to vote for the Clintons to be back in the White House.
Hopefully, Her Heinious will not live until the election. What ever she was pumped up with for the debate worked for those 90 minutes. But whatever illnesses ( think it is plural) she has are not predictable, and she can't use "pneumonia" again. Assange, where are you when we really need you?

Clintons have had decades to build their power bases, hideous amounts of money and power combined, they have no place to go if they don't win this election. They rule with Fear

Everyone one of the cowards like Cent, are caving because they expect the Clintons to win, and they are each individually afraid of not keeping "their" place in the game they're all playing!

We know what the Clintons do to people they think have not been "loyal" -including Caroline Kennedy for Dog's sake! Maybe, we can only hope, those who pray can pray, there are enough of us with the courage to vote based on what we believe in, or not vote at all, and defeat ( get rid of, finally!) the corrupt crooked Clintons!

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But if Clinton collapses in a pile of construction dust and spackle, there may actually be a chance to drive a stake through the heart of the Wall Street Democratic Oligarch. The reign of terror the Clintons exercise over the party would finally end, and there would be a mad scramble between the Schumer/Hoyer wing of the party and the Grijalva/Sanders/Warren side. Without Hillary's Bigbrotherish presence looming over the party, tongues might be loosened and a few brave souls might dare to utter a few truths. Or not.

The Democratic party has to collapse for any kind of change to come. It can reinvent itself in a New Deal remake, or it can reconstitute as a much weaker and more irrelevant vehicle for Wall Street strawmen. Obama is already irrelevant, and has no faction to wield. He never gave a shit about the party, and very soon the party will not give a shit about him.

Trump may have to be the radiation and chemotherapy we need to reinvent a politics that pays some scant attention to the 99%. Or he may be the CAT scan that finally shows everybody how diseased and hopeless the political system has become, and that it needs to be put out of its misery. I greatly fear the side effects, but at least there's a chance of cure.

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Please help support caucus99percent!

CS in AZ's picture

I have a good friend who is undergoing cancer treatment right now -- radiation and chemo, and the effects are nearly as devastating as the disease they are intended to treat. It's often difficult to decide if it's worth it, taking poison to try to kill off an internal poison. But it gives him hope, he might be able to beat it and get better. So he takes the poison. Will it work, we don't know.

Trump as president versus the Clintons does feel somewhat like that. Trump is clearly toxic. But the Clintons are also deadly. I cannot be at all happy about Trump as president, any more than we are happy my friend has to take chemo and radiation. But, if it kills off the Clintons' stranglehold over the democratic party, recovery might be possible, eventually.

I don't know. I am not voting for either of them, so I just wait to see what happens. It's a strange time.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

It's about overthrowing the Establishment in BOTH parties at the SAME time. It's a vote where the PEOPLE have an opportunity to express NO CONFIDENCE in the fully-corrupt, corporate-owned, non-representative Republican and Democratic Parties.

The American people will have this rare opportunity to discredit both parties in 2016. And the entire world will see and know that.

Everyone will pause. And wonder. And reform in order to regain credibility with the American people — the Actual Owners of the United States.

There is no logical scenario where Trump — known throughout the world as an outsider to the political system — can legally do anything that scares you. It's the propaganda weaving absurd horror stories and delusions. You won't wake up in Nazi Germany the day after the election. But the Neocons will cry bitter tears over their lost wars. Trump won't fight them.

I support only the DEFEAT of the Democratic Party and their war-criminal candidate. I support any voting strategy that will directly cause the DEFEAT of Hillary Clinton.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
CS in AZ's picture

I'm sincerely curious why you think that. Trump seems incredibly belligerent and immature, extremely bellicose and aggressive, immature and easily manipulated -- basically a nasty, mean child.

I'm not for the Clintons by any means, but I think we need to recognize that Trump will be quite dangerous too. I think either of them would continue American aggression and bloodshed around the world in our name as citizens of this country, who supposedly own our government (even though we don't). My only hope is that the establishment of both parties are so embarrassed by Trump that they will not work with him, while Hillary would have the full support to run wild with bombing and wars. But honestly, I think I'm lying to myself... Trump will run amok too, and congress will let him, and the MIC will continue their wars no matter what.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

…until just before the Republican convention. That means I listened to the words behind the red-meat circus of his rallies. The words were consistent. They still are, even his dumb economic positions. But the Left is screaming so loudly, they cannot hear them. And the Right refuse to hear them. So, I will quote what I reported about one of his many policy positions — his position on military murder and mayhem:

MOST OF Donald Trump's rally speeches lead to the conclusion that cutting the military-spending colossus (by making the rest of the world pay for its services) is one part of his strategy to turn the US economy around and put it on a sane economic footing. Perhaps defense corporations could manufacture "plowshares" or tiny homes, and put American workers back in the factories. At the very least, we know that Trump envisions policies that lessen cold war rhetoric and endlessly rising military costs, with spending lavished on so-called defense corporations

As for the ongoing Endless Wars™, Trump believes that nations should pay their fair share of the world's defense costs. He's looking at you, NATO. American workers can't afford to pay your share of your defense anymore. Especially when your people enjoy national health care and the US worker class lives in a dystopian society where they are forced to pay four times more for a lot less.

Trump's view of Israel is in line with this. He suggests that it's Israel who should pay aid the US ($3 billion per year) and not the other way around. Why should American workers carry the burden of Israel's lavish defense costs on their backs? He questions why the US military is not fully reimbursed by Israel when it labors to serve Israel's strategic advantage. The US takes on grave risk when it destroys select Middle East nations so that Israel's hands are clean. And again, why are US workers forced to pick up this tab with nothing to show for it but terrorist blowback in their homeland?

Trump spoke before AIPAC and assured Israel's powerful lobby that he fully supports the nation of Israel. He said he would continue to fight their wars (and support the ethnic-cleansing of the Shiites across the Middle East). But he told the supporters of his campaign that he would invoice Israel for US military costs, to be paid in advance. To Trump, the current arrangement is a lousy deal for the American people. Trump is a business man, not an ideologue. It's abundantly clear to him that the American people cannot afford to be philanthropists to a religious state on the opposite side of the planet. The American people can't even afford to feed themselves, collectively. One in four of American children are chronically hungry.

One thing that has infuriated the Republican Neocons, and driven them and their donors to Hillary's campaign, is Donald Trump's businesslike attitude about the costly Endless Wars™, which are driven by the Neocon ideology for global supremacy. Their outrage is mirrored by the US war profiteers of the defense industry, who had dutifully logged donations to Hillary from the beginning. They are determined to drown out Trump's message, by any means, before it becomes part of the national conversation. As for the financiers who launder the war profits and run the casinos for the spoiled, do-nothing Plutocrats-of-America — they are keeping their heads down in this final stretch. They invested heavily in Hillary in advance by sitting through her "top secret" top-dollar speeches. Meanwhile, the Party's core constituency is silently seething because Donald Trump broke their political Party and he's not even a Republican!

Naturally, his position is politically incorrect: refusing to fight for anybody or anything unless unless the US gets reimbursed, up front. He is a businessman, after all. Isn't the Left even curious why the Neocons hate Trump so violently?

Keep in mind, he can no more implement non-war than he could do any of the nutty fever dreams that Americans are having about Trump. Presidents are fairly powerless without congress. And the Democrats hate him almost as much as the Republicans do. He gets no respect.

A Federal government that does absolutely nothing is a dream come true for most of the world.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

I feel like I'm living, if not in Hitler's Germany, in something that will one day, in my lifetime, become Mussolini's Italy.

So it's a little weird for them to try to scare me with the words "fascist" and "Nazi."

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

... this was pretty much precisely my view of things, too. We need the Democratic party back and not as an enemy to our views. I even toyed with the idea of voting Trump to hasten that process, but I just can't do it. Jill this round, vote against hillbots downballot (even voting R if they're not completely Gohmert), and get this reboot started.

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Phoebe Loosinhouse's picture

/explosion of the Democratic Party. The overbearing oligarch will be dethroned and all the Party's autocratic and stupid dictates and reliance on identity politics will/should cause a massive revulsion against the leadership. Bernie Sanders and his supporters will be proved right on every single account, most especially defining the predominate struggle as being one of class, the 99%, comprising every demographic, over the 1%. (No, I am not saying All Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter is a separate, supremely important issue that overides all parties and all elections and exists on its own merits and not as a campaign issue. It's an unofficial, informal genocide, not a campaign talking point.)

Side note - now that Obamacare is imploding, Jill Stein should gain momentum as the only candidate pushing Single Payer and not a tourniquet to the ACA which is bleeding out. Once more Bernie proves correct, Hillary proves incorrect.

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" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "

Trump may be the Victorian-Era "Miracle Mercury Cure". He may be the medieval leech, bleeding out the last bit of "bad humours", curing us just before we die. He may be the patriarch, slaughtering the dreaded "others" who obviously caused this plague. He may be the high priest throwing virgins into the volcano to effect a cure for what ails us.

Quackery is quackery, even in politics.

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"Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."
- John Maynard Keynes

kharma's picture

Hold your nose this election and then after that....hold your nose for the election then after that....

It's like that bar in Key West with the sign painted on the side saying "Free Beer Tomorrow". Well tomorrow is that dangling carrot that the Democratic Party has overused.

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

kharma's picture

we have to fail the status quo. There is no time better than now. Why put off till tomorrow what you can do today? Right?

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

Will it match 1996 at 49% I wonder

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Creosote.'s picture

that it would be useful (aside from votes for Stein) to build and witness a voter turnout of 35% or less?

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Amanda Matthews's picture

time goes by. I don't see the next election being any better. Tim Kaine? Oh please, spare me.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

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[video:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&...

First thing I remember was askin' papa, "Why?",
For there were many things I didn't know.
And Daddy always smiled; took me by the hand,
Sayin', "Someday you'll understand."

[CHORUS:]
Well, I'm here to tell you now each and ev'ry mother's son
You better learn it fast; you better learn it young,
'Cause, "Someday" Never Comes."

Well, time and tears went by and I collected dust,
For there were many things I didn't know.
When Daddy went away, he said, "Try to be a man,
And, Someday you'll understand."

[CHORUS]

And then, one day in April, I wasn't even there,
For there were many things I didn't know.
A son was born to me; Mama held his hand,
Sayin' "Someday you'll understand."

[CHORUS]

Think it was September, the year I went away,
For there were many things I didn't know.
And I still see him standing, try'n' to be a man;
I said, "Someday you'll understand."

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Sandino's picture

via Counterpunch:

That’s the real issue this time,” he said. “Beating Nixon. It’s hard to even guess how much damage those bastards will do if they get in for another four years.”

The argument was familiar, I had even made it myself, here and there, but I was beginning to sense something very depressing about it. How many more of these goddamn elections are we going to have to write off as lame, but “regrettably necessary” holding actions? And how many more of these stinking double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote for something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?

Now with another one of these big bogus showdowns looming down on us, I can already pick up the stench of another bummer. I understand, along with a lot of other people, that the big thing this year is Beating Nixon. But that was also the big thing, as I recall, twelve years ago in 1960 – and as far as I can tell, we’ve gone from bad to worse to rotten since then, and the outlook is for more of the same.

—Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing: On the Campaign Trail ’72

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"doing the same damn thing, yet expecting a different result" is another

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HST is usually the touchstone. I don't want to follow his line of thinking all the way, given the way he chose to check out of this hotel.

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If more of us had refused to vote for candidates we don't support in the name of lesser evil, the simmering rage in this country would have boiled over in one way or another years ago. And the powers that be would have been forced to deal with the situation before they'd militarized local police forces nationwide and locked in place a system for suppression of domestic dissent. (Obama revoked key provisions of the Posse Comitatus Act when he signed the defense authorization bill in 2011.)

Cenk's argument is sophistry. Sadly, it's a variation on Bernie's argument now. Filed under the category of "How Good Guys Go Wrong."

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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti

"I have a mandate from the American People". With some justification.

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Hetrose's picture

Voting for Stein. Make of it what they may that it what will be. No more throwing away my votes on the ones I can't truly feel good about. I certainly do hope that enough folks vote Green this time around that the party begins to receive Federal funds and all that follows on that. Mix it up.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

It needs to be violently shaken, not mildly stirred.

Anything would be better than the festering rancid stagnation we face today.....

Diablo

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

solublefish's picture

Vote for the greater good

Shouldn't that be obvious? And yet it's not, trapped as we are in this game of our own making. Time to change the rules.

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gendjinn's picture

Each of us had one last time we held our noses before refusing to continue doing so.

There is some truth to the caustic burn of #WhitePrivilege in having the luxury of not voting for HRC. I'm nominally a white male in CA so nothing I do will influence CA going for HRC or impact the election. If I was in a swing state, if I was in NC I would have to come face to face with this election and I would most likely hold my nose one more time. Look at my comments here & DK, I'm done with the Democrats entirely now and forever. Except for f*cking Trump. One cannot dismiss that he is literally Mussolini. The presidency GWB/Obama left us with is perfect for a police state to take over. You will get Dominionists in the cabinet, Joint Chiefs, CIA, Supreme Court.....

In talking with my Indian, Middle-Eastern Muslim family & friends about this over the past year the fear which is building to outright terror at the prospect of President Trump is genuine and I cannot fault anyone voting for HRC against Trump.

I look at the African American boys that are friends with my wee creature and how can I possibly spit on anyone who would vote HRC in the belief that Trump WILL increase the threat of death to their children? Look at the aftermath of Brexit and how racist attacks spiked. The same will happen if Trump wins.

So yes. HRC is appalling. She is unacceptable as president. She will be terrible for the world. And in the long run just as awful as Trump. But you have parents concerned about their children making it home at night. Wives of their husbands, husbands of wives. Children of their parents.

HRC is an atrocity but Trump is even worse. Looking at the polls if HRC wins it will be with a GOP senate/house. I shudder at a Trump presidency with GOP senate/house. We can hope and work for HRC/GOP Obama levels of obstruction - should be easy they've been hating her for 25 years. Primary HRC from the left (no one else will run in the primary) beat her. With a real progressive running there are 40/50 million voters available which could help sweep senate/house. Yes it looks really, really bad this year. But we are also so very close to the breakthrough we've waited decades for.

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our politicians are not getting better, they are getting "progressively" worse.

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gendjinn's picture

There is a difference between saying HRC is progressive, will accomplish great things and saying she is an atrocity but Trump is worse.

A Trump presidency will put Domionists at the heart of the government and anyone that feels they have to hold their nose to vote against that is not a traitor, sellout dupe that will continue to go along with the system.

Yes the Dems have used LoT for a few decades, but this time they "lucked" into a reality of it. Just because it has been propaganda for decades does not mean it is actually accurate this time. It is a real boy who cried wolf situation.

I guess I'm really trying to say that there are a bunch of us that do agree on HRC, the future, what she will do, how bad her administration will be. But that some can still reasonably come to the conclusion that Trump poses such an existential threat that they are compelled to go along one last time.

After the election, when HRC shows her true colours, how betrayed, how angry, how passionately angry will those people be? They are not our enemies, they are they next influx of allies we have coming.

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After the election, when HRC shows her true colours, how betrayed, how angry, how passionately angry will those people be? They are not our enemies, they are they next influx of allies we have coming.

I will have zero sympathy, they were given a clear choice and boy did they hammer the choice of the mildly left Bernie with complete glee. The disdain was palpable the self blinkering evident, all they wanted to do was win at any cost whereas they put the possibility of losing right back on the table.

That lot have pissed me off one time too many.

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cardboardurinal's picture

that in many ways corporate Democrats are worse right? Democrats DO NOT stand up to Democrat Presidents, it just doesn't happen. When the DINO President pushes the Democrats to vote on...hmm...let's say "Free Trade," the party stays there. It has long-lasting ramifications in that it pushes the party, and this country, further to the right. And with Hillary, the Democrats, and this country, will be pushed further to the right on foreign policy, Israel, war, banking, trade, the environment, education, "entitlements," etc. Republican do not have that ability. If this country ever does privatize SS or destroy Medicare and Medicaid, it will be a Democrat who does it.

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n/t

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Dominionists? I think you have Trump confused with Ted Cruz.

After the election, when HRC shows her true colours, how betrayed, how angry, how passionately angry will those people be? They are not our enemies, they are they next influx of allies we have coming."

Yep, they've been the next influx of allies as long as I've been voting, and I'm retired. Sometimes they even work with us in primaries until they huddle with the Blue Dogs to protect each other from the wolf. I was among them for far too long.

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Ted Cruz will probably be their candidate

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After 4 years of Hillary running the government and endless Clinton scandals, nobody will vote for her including the election riggers. However if Jill is President, the election riggers will be gone and Jill will be re-elected in a huge landslide.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

gendjinn's picture

Beat her. Win the presidential against whatever atrocity the GOP put up.

If HRC is not primaried then there is no solution in electoral politics and it is time to move to the street. Which is always my last resort but it is looking like it is inevitable.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

Better to make sure she doesn't get elected THIS year, or we'll never be rid of the Clinton Clan.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

gendjinn's picture

No Democrat will primary her, but a progressive will.

My next four years:
1. Local govt and getting viable class based 3rd party alternative gain traction.
2. Find a great 3rd party candidate for 2020 to get behind.
3. Support primary of HRC, it will be 1x1. Progressive crushes HRC having learned lessons from Sanders.

So we can rely on the DNC cheating again and trying to steal it for HRC. We know they will do it, so we need to take advantage of what we know they will do. And think of what else they will try.

People who say to me "HRC is awful but I feel compelled to hold my nose." get a far different response than those that say "HRC is awesome, progressive, will be brilliant etc."

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TheOtherMaven's picture

A third party by definition IS NOT the Democratic Party (or the republican Party for that matter), so how is a third party candidate supposed to "primary" a Democratic (or Republican) candidate?

If they run "as" a Democrat they will get Berned worse than Bernie. Her Heinie won't ignore another outsider anywhere near as long.

If they run under their own Party, there is no face-off until the general election.

So I'm sorry, but your "plan" is in Underpants Gnomes territory.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

gendjinn's picture

Ain't putting all my eggs in one basket, going to do what I can on multiple fronts.

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If you think the democrats were toxic this time around when the coronation process was interrupted as the song goes; "you aint seen nothin yet"

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Shahryar's picture

do you want [insert name of next Repub we're told is like Hitler/Mussolini/Bush when Bush was considered bad] to win?

A Hillary win means the Dems are not getting another chance to nominate anyone decent until 2024. If we thought the deck was stacked this time (superdelegates nearly unanimously for one candidate who wasn't an incumbent!) then wait til 2020.

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gendjinn's picture

Gonna have to burn the bridge to 2020 in 2020.

There is a difference between someone reluctantly supporting HRC with eyes open and someone who believes the hype. Or worse sees HRC for what she is and agrees with her policies.

And the painful truth is that Trump is one of those feckers, in a way no other GOP candidate in recent times has been. GWB was evil through and through, no doubt, but Trump is worse again. HRC got really, really lucky in her opponent.

I can understand how someone can see the charnal pits of the camps when they look at Trump and then proceed to hold their nose for HRC.

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there is no difference. A vote for clinton is a vote for clinton. In fact, one might argue the former (eyes open) is worse because that person has the knowledge to know better. That person is arguably more responsible for the conseuqences than the unthinking fool. I would argue it's cowardice that motivates a knowing person to vote for someone untenable like clinton.

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gulfgal98's picture

with Bernie and he won, but she stole the election.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

gendjinn's picture

Just like Gore let Bush.

And you are right. HRC will be even more vulnerable to a progressive challenger and so the DNC will have to work even harder. So we should easily be able to find plenty of propaganda to exploit. Should also plan on being registered Dems for entryism purposes.

If we can't beat her fairly with the progressive majority we have, if they have to cheat so egregiously and we fail to expose it and make hay off it to get a 3rd party candidate elected then we only have ourselves to blame.

We have four years to plan. Primarying HRC from the left is just one step, and it doesn't have to be successful in it's primary aim to be successful for us.

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Sorry, you contradict yourself. Go ahead- play the Cenk game. If you think those of us who know better intend to play along in that delusion, you're nuts.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

the word "let"--it makes absolutely no sense to vote for her to protect somebody from Trump.

If she can rig a primary six ways to Sunday and face no consequences for that crime, she can rig the general too. Probably she will. In any case, your vote for her is nothing but optics: a contribution to her cover story, her ridiculous, endless search for credibility.

I'm sorry to be insulting, but it's just plain stupid, after we've seen Hill rig the primaries, to think that she can't rearrange the results in the general too. Unless you think Trump has better election fraud resources than she does--and I'd like to hear that case made, because on the face of it, it looks like all the Democratic and Republican fraud resources are at Hillary's disposal. The Bushes are certainly on her side.

Think about that: Bush Republicans and Clinton Democrats in positions of authority over our elections, from Secretaries of State on down, willing to rig the election for HRC. I find it highly unlikely Trump, even with all his money, is going to be able to buy an operation that matches up.

The (only) silver lining in all this is that neither you nor anyone else needs to vote Hillary out of fear.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

how many tea party secretaries of state there are in the individual states, especially swing states. I suspect the number is higher than you might think. Keep in mind that these folks hate establishment R's a lot and Hillary worse.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Are there enough Tea Party officials to buck both those factions and prevent Hill from winning?

I really doubt it, but I suppose it's possible.

Weirdly, I guess that's something to hope for.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

ArizonaProgressive's picture

Dems won't primary a Dem, especially one as powerful (and rich) as HRC and the Clintons will be after four years of graft and donations from corporations. If she wins, we will have 8 years and the poor an environment will suffer more than ever before.

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gendjinn's picture

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gendjinn's picture

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With all due respect, that's delusional thinking. Look at what they did to Bernie. Do you HONESTLY believe anybody else is going to stand up to her and her political hit squad?

No, if Hillary wins this year, it's either 8 years of Hillary, or 4 of Hillary and then 4 of whatever the Republicans scrape from the bottom of the barrel.

Either way, things are going further to the right and far worse before things get better.

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Flyswatterbanjo's picture

1 year of Hillary and 3 years of Kaine.

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Don't forget that Hill's already said that Bill's already going to be put in charge in certain areas - if you see a crooked dick coming to screw you, duck and cover! Never vote for it!

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

and in 2020 Cruz will make Trump look like a pussycat. Just as the fear of Reagan was supplanted by the fear of Bush II and then the fear of Palin and now the fear of Trump. A clinton presidency will condemn us to President Cruz.

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gendjinn's picture

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Blasphemy101's picture

I am in NC and will not be holding my nose. IT is a hard decision when you live in a swing state, but TPTB need to get the message. People are not happy and the shit show they gave us for an election is not acceptable. I am not worried who wins NC, they will do it without my vote.

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War, War Never Changes - Fallout Series

gulfgal98's picture

Florida. It may be white privilege, but I am voting my conscience and that means for the candidate who most closely reflects my values. That is Dr. Jill Stein. And I will do so with zero regrets.

If Trump wins the Presidency, the blame lies squarely upon the shoulders of the establishment Democratic party. They shoved a corrupt and horrible candidate down our throats using every possible means, including vote rigging. The neo-liberal Democrats are who made Trump possible, not this voter who is voting her conscience. I refuse to have my ethical standards and vote held hostage by a completely corrupt party.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

cries of "privilege!"

None of us is required to defend our vote. Should be enough to say (if this reflects your view):

"I strongly object to both major-party nominees and see both as equally unacceptable for different reasons. That's why I won't vote for either of them. I've heard every reason anyone can offer why Clinton is better than Trump. I have reasons for disagreeing and feel no need to explain or defend my views. There is a candidate remaining whom I do support, and I'll vote for her. If she weren't in this race, I wouldn't vote for president."

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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti

gendjinn's picture

Wouldn't try to talk you out of your vote either.

I just don't think that people who see how awful HRC is but feel compelled by the prospect of Trump to go along one last time are our enemies. The ones who go on about how great HRC is, or the ones who ardently support Trump, or well any GOP. Those are the ones I'm reserve my castigation for, if I feel like wasting any more energy on castigating.

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Her Heinious says and then unsays or mispeaks daily, then she unspeaks her mispeaks, and the windsock blows in another direction. No one holds her to a single thing she says. She denies, or was short circuited, or didn't remember.

Why, when Donald Trump plays the same game, and plays to his audience, tho in the same accent every where he goes, and consistently changes his words, is he somehow held accountable for all the blather he uses to excite his base. We have no idea how or what he'd do or say if elected POTUS.

Her Heinious has shown us for years how vindictive, corrupt, money grubbing, selfish, evil she can be and usually is. I've seen what she's done when she's had power, and don't want to give her or her husband another chance for more power.

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Thu, 09/29/2016 - 3:38pm — gendjinn

I was talking about myself WRT to #WP
I just don't think that people who see how awful HRC is but feel compelled by the prospect of Trump to go along one last time are our enemies. The ones who go on about how great HRC is, or the ones who ardently support Trump, or well any GOP. Those are the ones I'm reserve my castigation for, if I feel like wasting any more energy on castigating.

Not enemies, merely brainwashed into collaborating with an inimical collective of enemies out for world domination and prepared to destroy life on the planet within decades for the short-term maximized profits of their greed-consumed dreams, of which the corporate political parties/candidates are their purchased pawns.

I think the overall intent (naturally driven by desperation, seeing the last chance at democracy and survival slipping away due to 'greater-evil' set-ups and propaganda) generally tends less to that of castigation of the victims of disinformation and more toward informing such reluctant blinded-fear-driven voters-for-evil of the actual more positive choice of which they rarely hear and are anyway discouraged from voting for every freaking election because the herding cry of 'greater evil!' is invariably used to enforce voting for an evil which then is supported and therefore ever-expanding into greater and more power-hungry evil every time as a result - while options shrink.

Now domestic law and the very concept of democracy - the final step toward full engagement in totalitarian global economic/military conquest by corporate/billionaire interests using the military, human and other resources of such Trojan Horse 'trade deal'-captured countries - is at immediate stake with the corporate coup 'trade deals' in this election and Clinton/TPP-informed people are getting a little frantic at the idea of enough voters for evil to make another electoral cheat look plausible and more difficult to fight - or even being voted for locking off that avenue of escape.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Thu, 09/29/2016 - 1:53pm — gulfgal98

I vote in a swing state too
Florida. It may be white privilege, but I am voting my conscience and that means for the candidate who most closely reflects my values. That is Dr. Jill Stein. And I will do so with zero regrets. ...

That's what you have a vote for, isn't it? Not to be manipulated into endlessly voting against your own interests.

And to think that we all used to laugh at/feel sorry for the Repubs for doing that... and then came The Bern, (anyone still wondering why he ran as a Dem?) just in time to give the world a last-minute chance at survival, if enough Americans can break the two-party trade-off 'lesser-evil' conditioning before domestic law is betrayed into off-shored global corporate grasp and (barring the Bernie miracle of my dreams) vote non-TTP-supporting non-corporate Green...

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

gendjinn's picture

The plan in 2k was support Nader outside of swing states with the objective of getting 5% and funding. In swing states we'd swing in behind the Dems. That's what we did and as I was in NC I did my bit for Gore,

This time the plan is different and for good reason.

Certainly not proselytizing for HRC. Just saying that there is a space where we can agree on the facts of the HRC atrocity but in the face of Trump go along one last time. And it will be the last time for anyone who feels compelled to vote for Clinton. How violated will they feel as they watch the consequences of her presidency unfold.

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there is no "one last time". Don't you get it? Hill (or body double) in for eight, then Chelsea in for eight, then Chelsea's hubbie, then Chelsea's kids (each for eight). THIS is Bill's "legacy".

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Lily O Lady's picture

change"? I'm pretty pissed. Why would the next time be any different? The media will sugar coat every turd, while those who disagree wil be marginalized.

I supported Gore because of his stand on climate change which really had me worried. It must have had TPTB worried because Petro-Boy was selected for president instead and immediately claimed a bullshit mandate.

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Brown and Black people *here* fear Trump more; brown and Black people overseas fear Hillary more.

Makes sense, up to a point. But there's no sense in talking like this has anything to do with racism vs anti-racism, because if this is a choice at all, it's a choice between killing POC overseas, or stateside.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

gendjinn's picture

If all of Trump's harm fell on America and all of HRC's overseas, then no matter how bad Trump is one can create a moral argument for selecting Trump over HRC as the US should be the victim of the US, not other countries.

There are more considerations than the litany of atrocities HRC and/or Trump will inflict upon the US and the world. There are people who agree with us on how awful HRC that see how a Trump presidency will spike racist/hate crimes as they've done post-Brexit in the UK. Voting against that guaranteed outcome is certainly a moral act. The body counts and carnage of HRC are more abstract - make Syria, Libya, Iraq worse? You see the neurological, conceptual, moral problems humans have with comparing an abstract with a concrete.

Cenk is not our enemey, he is not a sellout. HRC is very fortunate in Trump and how he memes 20th century genocidal dictators so well.

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ggersh's picture

in the UK is towards fellow Europeans and not POC, it's the Poles that have
borne the brunt of all the attacks.

As far as her heinous, not much of a difference in building walls, barriers.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPwEcWK8wLU]

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I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

But Trump! He's scary!

Hillary sycophants are frightening. Whether the ignorance is genuine or willful, either way they're no different than Trump supporters.

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I know Her Heinious keeps changin' her accent - but wow, still wondering what she did to so change her face for the recent debate. No wonder she took so much time "off the campaign" to prepare ROFL

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