Response.

Tourniquet says:

i'm probably

going to get a lot of hate for this.

but in what world are women a minority? at best, you're talking about portions of percentages per person. (woo, alliteration)

ed: there are .02% more men than women on the planet in countries with a population greater than 200k.

By itself, being a "minority" says nothing about political status. The progeny of European immigrants are a minority in South Africa. The .01% are a "minority."

Here's Maria Mies:

In the course of time, it became clear to me that the confusions in the feminist movement worldwide will continue unless we understand the ‘woman question’ in the context of all social relations that constitute our reality today, that means in the context of a global division of labour under the dictates of capital accumulation. The subordination and exploitation of women, nature and colonies are the precondition
for the continuation of this model (page 2).

You know, sweatshops and such.

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Pricknick's picture

Could you at the very least, provide the context of what Tourniquet said?
Which Essay? I'll be the first to admit I miss many informative ones.
And, if it was in response to an essay, why did you not leave your response there?
Thanks.

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Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

Cassiodorus's picture

Here's the quote from Tourniquet in context. I'll add it to the diary as well.

I'm frontpaging this response because "minorities" were only an issue in terms of political status, and because issues involving "minorities" are actually cleared up when one talks of political status.

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"the reason you need a new class to come into power in the United States is because this one is useless" -- Vijay Prashad

Pricknick's picture

That was a damned long thread with my name at the top.
Thanks for clarifying.

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tourniquet's picture

describing females as a minority isn't correct, is it, cassadorius? inasmuch as the definition of "minority" is fully agreed on?

if it is, feel free to help me out with another essay.

ed: sorry about the name. i just glanced.

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Cassiodorus's picture

Please also see my comment above.

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"the reason you need a new class to come into power in the United States is because this one is useless" -- Vijay Prashad

tourniquet's picture

i'm honestly interested. that word has never meant anything political to me, it's always meant a numerical thing.

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elenacarlena's picture

myself a minority as a woman, it's a numerical thing.

However, the discrimination women have faced historically and sometimes continue to face puts us in much the same position as minorities. Therefore the plethora of derogatory words that refer to us, sometimes simply on the basis of our womanhood, often with an implication that we are unusually unpleasant.

The dictionary definition of minority is "a relatively small group of people, especially one commonly discriminated against... differing from others"

Since we fit the definition except for the "relatively small group" part, I think some have come to think of ourselves as a minority as a sort of shorthand. But since we are not small in number, the usage is inexact.

But really, isn't this a quibble?

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Centaurea's picture

It would be more accurate to use the term "suspect class" to refer to demographic groups whose members are commonly discriminated against. This is a concept used in Constitutional law, having to do with judicial analysis of Equal Protection (14th Amendment) claims. At present, SCOTUS treats gender as a "quasi-suspect" class.

Most folks not being Constitutional lawyers, many people no doubt use the word "minority" as a sort of layperson's short-hand for what "suspect class" refers to.

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~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
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elenacarlena's picture

I.e., "Who committed the murder?" "We don't know exactly, but here's the suspect class"!

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Centaurea's picture

I suspect you're right about that! Wink

(I always thought it was an odd way to express the concept, although I understand the legal logic.)

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earthling1's picture

Talk like a minority.
TREATED LIKE A MINORITY.
I calling it. Women ARE minority.

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Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.

featheredsprite's picture

There are too many places in the world where being female guarantees one a powerless status, but we all probably agree on that.

About half of the jobs I held during my laboring years were blue collar and I was in several shops where females were in the numerical minority but this didn't cause a problem. Most people I worked with agreed with me that the workplace is more pleasant if there is a mix of male and female workers.

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Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.

PriceRip's picture

bitch |bi ch |
noun
1 a female dog, wolf, fox, or otter.
2 informal derogatory a woman whom one dislikes or considers to be malicious or unpleasant.
• [in sing. ] informal a thing or situation that is unpleasant or difficult to deal with : the stove is a bitch to fix.
verb [ intrans. ] informal
express displeasure; grumble : they bitch about everything | [as n. ] (bitching) we're tired of your bitching.
ORIGIN Old English bicce, of Germanic origin.




          I once (many years ago) commented that [identifying name] was [grumbling] about some situation. I made that comment while in the presence of a female friend. That female friend walked away and never talked to me again . . . ever. I am in no position to (nor do I have the right to) judge the merits of that person's reactions. I never learned what past event or events resulted in that persons response, and I figured it best to not question her . . . ever.

          Learn from my experience and be aware of the power of words, as they are heard by someone for whom you might care.

          As for the notion of "minority" meaning "disadvantaged", my female colleagues are not (necessarily) in the minority put they are often at a disadvantage in this academic setting. As I am an old guy I have been able to play the kindly grandfather figure when providing effective advice when they confide in me. I often illustrate the fickle nature of discrimination with examples drawn from my extensive background of personal experiences. In fact I related one such story today that two female colleagues found amusing and (I hope) useful.

          I guess what I am saying is: I am less concerned with the words a person might use and more concerned with how effective that person is in effecting real change.

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tourniquet's picture

would a friend never speak to you again because you said someone was "bitching"?

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PriceRip's picture

          My world is populated with individuals from all segments of the Venn Diagram of psychological states. Social interactions are unfathomable in their complexity. As an observer, I interpret the actions of the others. As a participant, I am responsible only for my actions.
          The short answer to your question is, "Yes." A complete answer involves consideration of esoteric material beyond the scope of this thread.
          I hope to elaborate on all this in the 3D+ group. I have much from pervious presentations to rework into a format that is (I hope) useable in this venue.

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Aardvark's picture

There now, the beginning of the matter is stated plainly.

Peace and love be with you, reader.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

However, these days, the means of dissemination are far more crucial.

Smile

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riverlover's picture

I would have assumed another word, or queen, like cats. I tend to use the descriptive female. In all cases.

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I do not see myself as oppressed, but then, I am not poor.

I'm not sure some one can be made responsible for what others feel. We are not mind readers, and we are all different. We are responsible for our own actions, however, and we should behave in a cooperative and helpful manner . If and when someone makes that too imposing, then it becomes time to walk away.

Feelings are a little like birth control. Since they are my feelings, I'd rather be the one in control.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Cassiodorus's picture

Indeed if you are not poor you might not see yourself as oppressed. Mies is clearly referring to some women as being subordinated in the continuation of the capitalist model -- namely the ones in the colonies and sweatshops and patriarchal households and so on, women who escape traditional patriarchy only to discover themselves working for long hours at low wages or doing housework in patriarchal families. Mies highlights the senses in which patriarchy aligns itself with capitalism.

The elite neoMalthusian obsession with "population" also points to a complaint about a symptom of traditional patriarchy within a modern context. Effective birth control becomes a social force when women have effective reproductive rights. Not making women into objects of gendered exploitation would be "going all the way" in that regard.

One of the things which science fiction and fantasy incite us to imagine is a world in which individuals may change genders (along with, to be sure, actual physical sex characteristics) at the drop of a hat. Such power is, of course, the dream of the transgendered, and Robyn writes about that topic well. The technology, of course, is still at present too primitive to make gender irrelevant by itself, and so present-day society has transgendered people -- men who wish to be regarded as women and women who wish to be regarded as men. The idea of being transgendered, however, appears upon first glance to have within it the idea of a long transition between genders, which is indeed a limitation. But even the notion of "transgendered" allows for an imaginative context in which the public social concept (the "social imaginary," as one sees in Cornelius Castoriadis or Charles Taylor) of gender can be transformed.

Now of course the fictional door was perhaps opened toward gender transformation by some rather mediocre "sci-fi": so, for instance, you can read Robert A. Heinlein's I Will Fear No Evil, basically the story of a dying man whose brain is transplanted into his lovely female secretary's body, as taking place in a dystopian future. Or perhaps you can count the rather sexist episode of Star Trek that concluded the third season of the old series. More interestingly there were John Varley's "Eight Worlds" tales, or Tanith Lee's Don't Bite The Sun and its sequel which I do not have.

At any rate, (relatively) quick and convenient gender-changing (I know this is a fantasy) would also quickly make traditional patriarchy irrelevant. Perhaps the inhabitants of traditional patriarchies would at first all choose to be men, even the women, given the preexisting order, but they would no doubt soon thereafter discover what a society without gender difference was like. Perhaps they would also soon thereafter discover the narcissism of exploitation: you can't be an exploiter unless someone or something is also there to play the role of the exploited.

So to the point of my redirection of that thread from what was in my opinion a rather humdrum conversation. Whether or not you are a "minority" is, in itself, irrelevant -- what matters are the contexts of power and exploitation which today make fools of us all.

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"the reason you need a new class to come into power in the United States is because this one is useless" -- Vijay Prashad

Damn, sure, show me another Tanith Lee I haven't read and probably never will...

I used to wonder why we were lumped in with minorities, but even in affluent countries, we have been rather 'othered' in ways guys probably don't notice, especially in ads. You know, the sort of thing where (pick nationality) likes beer, pizza - and pretty women? As though all citizens were male and women were a commodity. Haven''t watched TV in years, though, so hopefully that sort of irritant social assumption that women aren't really people isn't being used any more in ads, at any rate. I personally have no problem with terms like bitch or bitching, though. I bitch a lot myself, even without TV ads to trigger it, lol.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Damnit Janet's picture

Minority.
Disadvantaged.
Oppressed.
Owned.
Discriminated.
Targeted.

I'm not sure what the debate is but there's another word for "debate", too.

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tourniquet's picture

i appreciate the civil conversation here. this is a subject i'd never considered. it is a quibble indeed elena, but it's turned out to be an interesting one.

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The idea was to be able to thoughtfully engage on any topic, even "taboo" topics, without getting into a whole bunch of drama and pie fights. Agree, don't agree, sort of agree and then walk the fuck away. Why does someone have to be right/wrong or silenced because someone else can't handle or doesn't like/agree with the conversation?

Moderation and admin did meet on the brouhaha that won't die. We all reaffirmed that we still support the original concept we had set in place for this lifeboat. As opposed to ToP which is all chiefs and no Indians, we thought it would be nice if we were all adults with no gatekeepers. As my dear, departed dad used to say to me and my mom when we got too definitive, "who died and made you boss?". Joe did a masterful job of laying it out.

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earthling1's picture

for some time now. The cream of the crop migrated here ( and a few choice other sites ) from TOP. What they have left over there is soured.

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Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.

tourniquet's picture

most of us do.

i find it interesting that the majority of women in this thread do not consider themselves minorities, while the majority of men in this thread consider women minorities.

just a thought, due to the numbers. it's an interesting question, and at this point i'm glad it came up, as coarse as my initial post might have been. frankly, i assumed i was going to be utterly destroyed in response. lol.

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riverlover's picture

BUT, if you look at measurements like pay, women are treated as less-than. There have been many recent studies (none at hand) that show as women receive parity in the workplace, the perceived value of the work goes down. Nurses, teachers are recent-history gender-dominant, IT is male-dominant although it began in Turing's time as female-dominant. I am trying to recall, as women have gained parity in some fields, the relative compensation goes down. Why this happens can be many philosophical arguments. And the studies could have had a bias.

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tourniquet's picture

wages, or anything else work related. my experience is limited with women in the workplace because my career was in culinary, where women who are able to fog a mirror are paid as much as men who can fog a mirror... because we're all peons. numbers. yay.

my friend sam (samantha) was a badass prep cook that was paid more than any of the line cooks at the convention center i used to work at, and she deserved it, not just because of tenure but because her output dwarfed the stoner males she worked with. she deserved more. most of the males there deserved more. we all got gang-fucked by corporate, while the useless, management-schooled morons in two or three air-conditioned offices were paid 50k a year. probably because they were willing to wear suits.

i'm bitter. less bitter than i was 6 years ago, but still fucking pissed. i don't see the problem as gender/sex based. the problem is the absurd inequality between the under- and over-lings. even when the overlings don't have a fucking clue what their underlings are doing. i'm glad i got out, and i'm glad i was lucky enough to have the resources to get out at the time.

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featheredsprite's picture

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Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.